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Even though my AH has his sobriety, attends two meeting weekly, we are back together in our home, and I experience varying "degrees" of serenity and peace frequently, I sense something emerging in me that seems to be getting stronger ~ it's sort of nagging me.
This something are my daily observations of my husband's immaturity. Many times I feel I'm dealing with a 17 year old and not a 57 year old. He can be a very kind, sensitive, intelligent man. However, he often reasons like a teenager. He is far less sarcastic since he doesn't drink, which I really appreciate. However, I find when I try to hold various discussions about things and he feels differently about them, he begins to use sarcaism. In addition, many any times he begins to run people down. I will make comments such as "Well, your friend did that because that is what "he" wanted to do or thought was best; it's okay to not agree with him."
I don't know. I guess what I'm wondering is this: will he mature? I do think he would if he worked the program. I do not think attending two meetings per week will enable him to grow emotionally. The two meetings are better than nothing. That is what he wants and/or thinks is best for him at this time. I do not advise him to attend more meetings, nor work the program. He doesn't have a sponsor either. He says he has tried to obtain one, but has had no luck.
I'm certain immaturity comes with the territory; after all, for most of his life he drank instead of facing his challenges. And I'm certain that recovering alcoholics develop maturity at different rates and degrees.
I can relate to this. There are times I feel like I'm dealing with a teenager around my Asober. I have heard that when they become sober they act the way they did before they start drinking. Basically my Asober is 16 or 17. My Asober goes to outpatient rehab and AA meetings. I know rehab helps him in a lot of different ways and I'm sure eventually he will mature. He has been in the program over 40 hours and is now working step 2. I'm glad they are not rushing things with him. That way he can take his time and learn and get better. I'm trying my best with being patient and I learned to "not to have expectations" and take it one day at the time which is hard for me. I am a planner but with his recovery I am not able to plan or interfere at all. I remember just a week ago he was very grumpy and seemed annoyed (like a teenager) and it has gotten better this past week. Maybe your AH will at some point decide to work a program but like you said going to meetings is better than nothing. There he can be around people how relate.
Gail, :) I was told by someone from the other side of recovery that a person stops maturing at the age that they become an addict. LOL I would gladly trade your 17 year old for my 13 year old ;)
Ok all kidding aside. It isn't fun for me to live with and in fact I get very frustrated at being the only "adult". This is actually a resnetment for me. So what do I do about it? I look and see what is mine and leave the rest.
When he had his times of sobriety he did seem to be more adult more often, but sometimes slipped into old behaviors....
I think it is just like anything else......the person has to want to change before it will change.
Keep coming back...it helps.
Yours in recovery, Mandy
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"We are not punished for our unforgiveness, we are punished by it" Jim Stovall
I hear you! I think it has to do with a total inability to see beyond themselves. Selfishness, in its truest form.
My AH is perpetually late, though has gotten significantly better in sobriety. I spent my whole marriage waiting for him. He was known for being late at home, at work, with friends, to appts, etc. That known, and often brought to his attention and joked about, he gets totally impatient and somewhat sarcastic when he is on the waiting end.
The thing is, since Nov., my AH has been sober and drowning in recovery programs - 5 AA meetings a weeks, plus 2 professsional groups, 2 relapse prevention classes and private counseling. And they still haven't got to the selfishness part? I believe that true recovery and maturation depend just as much on the attitude and what one brings to it, as being chemical free.
As I am getting stronger in the program, I am finding myself to be less tolerant. It's irritating at best.
Blessings, Lou
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
And my program attending wife just got back from two weeks away from the house to see and help with her new grandson. When she gets home the first thing she starts to do is clean the kitchen, straighten the paper work, and make comments like "the kitchen wasn't CLEAN enough"..."when did you start your relationship with tobacco again?" yada yada yada...and this is from someone who has been going to multi-meetings weekly.
To some it's never good enough and looking for the positives is like a defect in character. I started to miss someone at the end of the two weeks but it wasn't who came off of the plane. It is not about my length of sobriety or about my maturity...it's about what? Not being perfect enough?
Our program suggests that we keep the focus on ourselves and to look within ourselves for what needs to be corrected for, "we play a part in the problem ourselves."
I do completely understand... my wife acted like a 15 year old, reasoned like a 15 year old, judged like a 15 year old, and took the responsibility of a 15 year old. ((Mandy)) has it right on about the nature of addiction and the "emotional" growth that stops. So, now (today) (with program), I try to keep my side of the street clean, not have the expectations of how an addict (or another affected person) will behave -- therefore, I will not be disappointed when they do not meet (what would've been) those expectations.
On, perhaps, a slightly different note, I would like to encourage you to make a 12th step and get him to an Al-anon meeting or 2... I know quite a few folks that have progressed from AA to the more (in my opinion) "emotional growth oriented" Al-anon program. We can only suggest...
In the mean time, keep taking care of yourself, knowing what behavior is yours to own and what is his... that is how I stay grounded.
much love and hope, cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
Hi, Stormie. I see the same behavior in my step daughter who is newly straight, 26, and acts like a 14 year old. I'm new to this program and the challenge is definitely on keeping my focus and attention on nurturing my own recovery; and letting her work her own program.
We can do our part in maintaining our healthy boundaries in our relationships. Last week we went out to lunch and my SD started to text someone in the middle of the meal! I told her that it wasn't polite to do that - it was actually immature. Perhaps not the kindest message to deliver, but I felt that I couldn't sit in stony silence and feel resentment that she would rather tap out text to a friend than communicate with the people at the table. The rest of the meal was uncomfortable, as she sulked.
I'm working on getting myself to more meetings... when she crosses a line with me then I let her know, but I try not to dwell on it.
Its been a long road for me in finding my own maturity (and still working on it!) and I am not the A, so I can only imagine how much harder for the A with the additional effect (damage) to their brain from the drinking (or drugs) to learn how to change and mature. Some get there, some don't. Time frame is always individual too.
So what are my options? Same as they've always been. Focus on my own recovery and what is best for me and my kids. Have acceptance for how my life is, or change what I can in my life until my life is acceptable to me. Guess thats the bottom line for me.
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
Yeah, I have got to say that my response to this post has to do with keeping the focus on my own maturity at 45 years old! I have JUST figured out ONE or TWO things about being mature- JUST. I have no idea when I will actually be mature!!! I struggle with this DAILY in the form of things happening that "do not seem fair", people treating me poorly and thinking its about me and not them, throwing tantrums inside my head, etc. These are all signs of my own lack of maturity. I work on this every single day. Feeling like a victim is also a lack of maturity, from my perspective.
I want to work on my own inventory, not anyone elses....hugs, J.
Hi Gail... your post brings up two thoughts from me....
First off, I was told at a Treatment Center where my ex AW went a similar thing to what Mandy referred to - there is a belief that the "emotional maturity" of many addicts reverts back to the time when they started using/drinking....
The other point, and the one that I had to learn the hard way - is that I had always attributed the lion's share of our marriage differences and her personality defects to her drinking, and thought things would be rosy (or at least rosier) when she got sober.... The truth, of course, is that drinking is only a part of the story, so many of those defects - in her, in me, and in us - are still there long after the A stops using....
Take care Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I dunno if I keep the focus on myself and look at alcoholics sober or not I wonder what I ever saw in them. I recently met a recovering alcoholic, he has a long period of sobriety. I see things in him that are pretty similar to codependent. Some people can use the program to justify their charactor defects. Self absorption is indeed a big part of the alcoholic issue.
Turning the tables I have to say my own maturity isn't too hot. I feel real reactive, real immature and very lost most days. I know what I saw in the alcoholic was someone who couldn't challenge me because they were out of it too much.
I think for me in meeting the A there were two immature individuals there. It may not be that its only your AH's sobriety that is up there it is your own too.
For me personally its all about me, if I am irritated by someone, what are my expectations. What do I want and need from a relationship not sure I know.
I know there was no coincidence in my being with an A. I think its great to be able to label the a's issues. I think its wonderful to encourage sobriety but at the same time what is the measure of our sobriety. For some of us it is leaving, what then. I know for sure if I don't work a program I'll probably end up with another A. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I could live alone too bitter and angry and frustrated and on a "dry drunk" of my own.
I also know for me personally I think I had to have completely left the building when I chose any alcoholic sober or not because I did not put my needs in there. My friend who is a recovering alcoholic is completely emotionally unavailable, I'm clear on that with a few years of al anon under my belt. Without it I'd be trying to make him emotionally available.
Imaturity is one of the hardest thing to live with in sobriety my friend said she was having problem going to bed with a 15 yr old . HA You talk about his meetings and he is not going to enough ,what about yur meetings are u attending al-anon for you ? taking his inventory is a waste of time he is sober and trying and some days that just has to be enough . Moods are common in sobriety attiutde stinks sometimes but I still remember the drinking days and a bad attitude occasionally sure beats anything we had in the drinking yrs so I leave the mood wit h him and carry on with my day . good luck Louise
It is well known in the recovery field that emotional and mental maturity comes to a halt when the serious drinking and using starts...the addiction. The chemical becomes primary and everything else goes by the wayside. What is also known and accepted in the industry is that when the enablers start to focus on the alcoholic and addict their own growth comes to a halt also. In program I have had to learn how to growup also...alot. Maresie yours was very helpful feedback for my memory. If nothing changes...nothing changes.
This is such a great string u guys! I love how this topic really took off and how we applied the program to it- turning the focus onto us and examining the whole issue of maturity- I have to agree with Maresie that for me, BOTH of us were EXTREMELY immature and ultimately this immaturity (combined) was the real clinker to the whole marriage, I believe. My own was incredible. Still is on most days. I cannot believe the temper tantrums I still find myself on the brink of and need to calm myself out of- again, the adult in me puts her arm around the child throwing the tantrum: this is THIS program working in action people. Hugs, J.
Mine is 9 years old. lol. I agree with Mandy. If you google "dry drunk syndrome" there is an excellent article from Minnesota. Helped me alot to understand why this 60 year sober for 25 years man will not act his age.
Nancy I have been rightly described at times (often it seems LOL) as acting younger than my age (past mid 60) and my grand daughter at times shakes her head and offers my wife sympathy for putting up with my condition. How ever since breaking free from the disease of alcoholism and becoming introduced to that child within me that was trapped for so long I have been able to let that young man "come out" and play and have fun and laugh. I get to experience what I missed at those younger years and that is another miracle of this program that I can actually do that. It was hugely strange to hear myself actually laugh out loud after the longest time of seriousness (during the disease raging years) and among some young clients I counseled. I even asked them "what was that sound I just heard coming from me?" and they said "you laughed!!" That was both sad and uplifting at the same time. One of the consequences of working this program well is that you attain the conditon of being happy, joyous and free. While my body gets older my spirit gets to remain the child...wiser child but still a child...of God. I think I can better serve from the condition of happy, joyous and free rather than from the more properly behaving grandfather. I don't tantrum as much as before...I don't need to because again the program has given me acceptance as the solution to all of my problems and helped me to properly practice it (for me) on a daily bases. Today when I tantrum it's usually from the aspect of humor and fun or to show another member how to do it well.
Immature does't only mean negative to me anymore. I will always be a child of God and I kinda like the heck out of that.
I appreciate all of your comments. I gave each post serious consideration.
There is so much to say on this topic; however, I find it terribly challenging to discuss it on a message board. Words only point to what I'm trying to convey and words can be misconstrued. Plus, I find that I leave important aspects out of many of my posts, which often results in being misunderstood, or so it seems.
I understand the wisdom of not taking another's inventory. I understand that alcoholics stop emotional growth about the time they get heavily into their addiction. I understand that the alcoholic's significant other, such as an "enabling" spouse, stops growing emotionally as well. I understand that when I find myself challenged in a relationship, such as my marriage, I'm part of the problem. I also realize that for years I tacitly taught my husband that certain behaviors of his were okay. I now realize that I often "okayed" his behaviors because I had low self-esteem (emphasis on the past tense).
The day I posted addressing immaturity, I was mentally identifying my needs and wants after another attempt to communicate with my husband about a few things that are bothering me. I felt as though I was dealing with a 17 year old, not a 57 year old man. It was frustrating. So I suggested that we try again another time.
What I want, not certain if it's what I "need," is to be able to discuss matters openly with my husband, without him feeling threatened. I want us to be able to bounce around ideas, and when needed, to agree to disagree. Also, I would like us to learn the art of compromise. We can't seem to get to that place. And, I realize I'm part of the problem.
I had very disturbing thought come to me right before I posted the other day: If I had just met my husband at this stage of my life, I would not have been attracted to him. But then, I asked myself Would I be the person I am today if I had not been married him?
I know, I know, what about unconditional love? Boy, do I have far to go! But then, I do not know anyone who truly knows how to love unconditionally. I'm not making excuses for myself. I'm just stating what I believe to be true based on firsthand experiences.
To love him unconditionally, hmmmm, possible? Perhaps living with my husband and letting him be, will compel me to learn how to love with no strings attached. Perhaps that is why we are together. Now, that is something I can get excited about (Geez, you can tell I used to watch Dr. Phil; I remembering hearing him tell couples: "Now, I want you 2 to make a plan that you both can get excited about.)
Just thinking . . . .
Thanks for all your responses. It appears many of you seemed to glean some good from many of then.
Aloha Gail...some of what you want is what I want and in order to get close to it have to consider settling for something I might not have considered. One of my friends, another counselor told me, "The object of all good negotiation is not arriving at a yes or no but at maybe." I liked that so much that it is now how I negotiate with others and even myself at times. There are no lines in the sand we have the whole desert to work with. In recovery I have learned to temper my expectations of others and offer grace when my expectations are more than reasonable to them. My spouse has also said to me at times that I don't act my age forgetting that at those times it maybe my choice without regard to her expectations. "This too will pass" is a graceful slogan because it sometimes says maybe not now...but later and I can work with that.
I always cringe when the topic of maturity comes up. Accusing someone of being immature is subjective at best and a cheap shot at worst. The reality is maturity is not some absolute we attain, it's relative. Raise your hand if you think you are *less* mature than someone you know. No hands? I'm not surprised. Mature is something we all think we are, and might admit we weren't yesterday, but not today.
Immaturity is also a condemning generalization, one that is undefendable. Better to focus on specific behaviors. One at a time. Nobody is going to plug into a sobriety-maturity outlet and suddenly start behaving exactly like we think they ought to. In other words, demanding our A "grow up" is a losing proposition - it's something he/she can't do - certainly not overnight, certainly not to our satisfaction. Be specific....
I used to think being called immature felt so uncomfortable to me because it hit home. Because I *was* immature. So I applied that judgement to myself. Actually, I'd probably be equally put off if someone said I was "very mature" today. Because I think any judgement one way or the other is bogus. It's a term overused and worn out, to where it's only value is to put down. Reality is, if someone says I'm mature, it means they think I'm like them (which might not be true at all). If they say I'm immature, it probably means I'm not like them. Which is probably true!
Anyway, going around in the circle here --- focusing on specifics keeps the problem to something solveable. Nobody can ever live up to a generalization, especially a relative (and moving) one.
I always cringe when the topic of maturity comes up. Accusing someone of being immature is subjective at best and a cheap shot at worst. The reality is maturity is not some absolute we attain, it's relative. Raise your hand if you think you are *less* mature than someone you know. No hands? I'm not surprised. Mature is something we all think we are, and might admit we weren't yesterday, but not today.
Immaturity is also a condemning generalization, one that is undefendable. Better to focus on specific behaviors. One at a time. Nobody is going to plug into a sobriety-maturity outlet and suddenly start behaving exactly like we think they ought to. In other words, demanding our A "grow up" is a losing proposition - it's something he/she can't do - certainly not overnight, certainly not to our satisfaction. Be specific....
I used to think being called immature felt so uncomfortable to me because it hit home. Because I *was* immature. So I applied that judgement to myself. Actually, I'd probably be equally put off if someone said I was "very mature" today. Because I think any judgement one way or the other is bogus. It's a term overused and worn out, to where it's only value is to put down. Reality is, if someone says I'm mature, it means they think I'm like them (which might not be true at all). If they say I'm immature, it probably means I'm not like them. Which is probably true!
Anyway, going around in the circle here --- focusing on specifics keeps the problem to something solveable. Nobody can ever live up to a generalization, especially a relative (and moving) one.
Barisax
Barisax,
I "get" what you are saying and agree.
I had to laugh at myself when I read your post. I teach special ed students. Often, when a student has behavioral issues, I know to focus on 1 behavior, and 1 only. What I didn't apply this same thing with my marriage, is beyond me at this moment in time (sort of hard to think too deeply right now).
And the judgement thing. . . . I have to laugh at myself again! I've been reading an interesting book about the "egoic mind," but again, I haven't applied it to my marriage.
stormie wrote: I "get" what you are saying and agree.
Thanks for the reply, and I'm glad you get it. I read and re-read my wording and tried to decide if it was too blunt but decided to leave it. I have spend so much of my life trying to communicate ideas, thoughts, feelings - and failing or just being misunderstood, that it's nice to enjoy some success. I know that 10 years ago, I could not have put those thoughts into words. I would have tried, but not knowing what I was _really_ trying to say, I'd probably be reduced to a "yes you are!" "no I'm not!!" argument... LOL.
While I don't like the word "maturity" much because in the negative it's an insult and in the positive it just means "old", I do like the word "experience". Which says our founders were pretty smart when they chose certain wording in AA and Alanon literature "Experience, Strength, and Hope".
I believe in God, and I think one of our primary purposes as human beings in this life is to witness - to observe. Our experience is the sum total of our witnessing up to this moment in our lives. It can't be put down, it can't be taken away, it can't be trivialized. Whether we are human beings seeking a spiritual experience or, as some have put it, spiritual beings having a human experience - the common denominator is experience. And if you look at how the word, at least how it has been used during my half-century of life - experience literally means life.
