The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
when DH (or whatever) got home. He did come to me to try and finish our "discussion" from last night. What he told me was stunning to me. He does not understand in any way shape or form why I want him to stop drinking, and furthermore he wants to know when I became such a damn teetotaler. The implication was that I'm not FUN anymore. How many times and in how many ways did I try to get him to see my point of view. It doesn't matter. He flat out denied that he has any problem with alcohol. He said that left to his own devices he would choose to drink each and every night of the week because he LIKES to drink. At this point I was feeling crazed. Waiting for an ah-ha moment that may never come for him. Doesn't this sound like a person with at least an alcohol dependence? He didn't start out being this way so many years ago when we married. And no, he said it would never occur to him to not drink so much in front of the kids either, because there's nothing wrong with what he's doing. OMG.
Then he tried to tell me that I was manipulating him in the same ways I accuse him of doing to me. It was incredibly frustrating to be having this discussion because we've certainly had it a million times before. But he kept trying to make it all about me and what I was doing to him.
He also said that the only reason he went one time to the counselor was because I made him. That he doesn't want to go and on his own accord would never go. He does admit to having an anger problem, and admits that he's done nothing about it over the years that I've begged him to, often after he's called me something horrible. But he sees no correlation between his doing nothing about a problem he admits he has and my being unhappy and unwilling to perform things for him that frankly I don't feel interested in. Maybe that's another question I have. Does anyone else have a problem becoming sexually interested in the person who has an alcohol problem? I do not deny him intercourse, but he wants it and more, more than a couple times a week. If I give in every time he wants then I end up feeling used. If I don't give in then he becomes VERY angry and treats me poorly. And he thinks HE can't win? My bedroom has become a place of fear and intimidation, but he thinks if I hold out then I'm the one manipulating him. I have zero interest in manipulation and power games. I just want to be happy.
I told him to stop going to the counselor if he was only doing it for me, since it wouldn't be helpful that way at all. He agreed that it might not be helpful. I asked him what his plan was then to deal with the anger that was so obviously devastating ME, and he said he didn't have one. I asked him how that's worked over the years and he said not very well. So I guess he's going to keep going, and probably keep grumbling about it.
So, is that normal....someone saying they have no problem whatsoever with alcohol and they would drink every night if they could because they LIKE it? He swears he cut back more and for longer than I am recounting. He said before I even said anything about it that he was going to get back to weekend only starting this week, but just because I asked him to cut back. I don't respect him right now, and I question his judgement, but hell I question my own judgement right now too.
I don't have any problem going to Al-Anon meetings and in fact I'd like to. But if my husband finds out he would be furious. Because he doesn't have a problem. And if the kids figure out where we are and why (and they will, they're not that young), and it gets mentioned by them, he would be even more furious for going behind his back to address a problem he didn't even create because he doesn't have one. It's the implication I guess. Can't let anyone know, can't be a piece of trash like the other people he loves to hate (he's very judgemental). I'd have to sneak to the meetings and I'm so tired of holding my feelings in.
There is a saying in Al-Anon, " To argue with the drunk is to argue with the vacant." This took me the longest time to understand, you must understand that the A has to justify his drinking and he will say anything to push your buttons, he needs every bit of fuel he can get. You are trying to discuss the issues like he is a logical person. You must understand that alcoholics have no logic, they know what there doing is unacceptable, so what are they going to say, they know they are disrupting the family and not being the husband they should be. They don't even understand their own disease, so how can we. I cant stress to you the importance of putting the Al-anon tools into effect, save your breath and put all that energy into yourself, it is not your job to deal with the alcoholic or get him to act the way we want them to act. It only makes the situation worse. Let go and detach from the situation and see what happens. Things could get even worse, this is the progression of the disease, the wrong things to do are nag, beg, cry, yell, accuse and try to discuss anything when they are drunk, their brain is toxic. If your husband gets furious because you go to Al-Anon, so what. Just tell him, you have a problem. I know this thru my own experience. Keep coming back, go to that Al-anon meeting, learn the tools and work the program, its all there for you. Luv, Bettina
Yes, my (soon to be x) AH thought and probably still thinks there is really nothing at all wrong with him. It just become COMPLETELY impossible to have ANY kind of sane conversation with him about anything at all. It became totally useless to talk with him, discuss anything at all. I just lived my life and made my decisions and pretty much ignored him. He got more and more furious the more I did this. But it was so worthless to try to talk with him about anything at all. It became: "why am I here living a life with this person who I NEVER interact with, we just share a roof..."
My situation turned violent so I split. My AH is also bipolar and MEAN as heck because of his diseases. Mean like you would not believe...eventually, I began to not take his craziness personally, I mean, its his state of mind and it has nothing to do with me whatsoever.
No, we cannot reason things out with alcoholics. We may be able to have healthy sane conversations with our friends and family members and the hit a brick wall of total insanity with the alcoholic. Its best to just turn and walk away, politely and be compassionate- they truly are in such a horrible state and in so much pain- hugs, J.
Thank you to both of you for your replies. I like the idea of stopping wasting my breath and work on myself instead. And I do often feel I have the most wonderful, intellectual and warm conversations with everyone else but my AH. Of course he believes himself to be the most rational person on the planet and is fond of saying to me "just because you *feel* something doesn't mean it's true". He would laugh at the notion he's not being logical.
I like the *idea* of detachment. I would love to put this into practice. My question is how do I detach and still keep the peace? If I detach and don't provide him the sexual services he constantly requests, then he gets mean. Not physically mean, but honestly I think that would be so much easier - more cut and dried and I wouldn't stick around either. He just get's hostile, passive-agressive and gets revenge on me for my supposed wrongdoings (all of which seem to be not having enough sex with him!). I do think there is some sort of sexual addiction thing going on here. Thankfully he's not on the computer looking at porn or anything, at least not here at home. He knows he gets more than the "average" american married couple, whatever that is, yet he still insists it's not enough. I can tell day by day that he's getting angrier if I haven't initiated or made myself available to him. He wasn't like this when we married, but then again I wasn't the same person then either. I worked full time and was a professional and honestly I think he gave me more respect then. I gave that up to stay home with the kids (I do work part time) and it seems like he's lost some respect for ME, although he wouldn't have it any other way than for me to stay home (more his idea than mine although I know it's been good for them).
So, how to detach but not get him furious so that he makes my life even more miserable with silent treatment, angry glares, clenched teeth, lashing out at the kids too, etc.?
Just a suggestion , tell them all the truth , HIs drinking is causing YOU a problem . no blame involved just the facts and the kids probably already know when dad has had too much to drink they really don't miss a thing . they know when it's ok to be around him or when it's time to go to thier rooms or a friends house . Louise
Aloha M&M!! (gosh I love those things especially with peanuts or almonds) I digress though (lol).
You are in the right place and there is so much to learn. MIP is really helpful but for me the real learning, help and support plus of course the love and understanding is in the face to face meetings and with a sponsor and also with a home group (a meeting I attend regularly and do service in). When I got here I was a dumb as a stick and even when I knew I was crazy everything and one also sounded farther out in left field. That was because I didn't know anything about alcoholism other than I was taught in church it was a sin. The meetings taught me it was a disease and that changed things right off. Since I didn't know anything and didn't know that I didn't know I had to sit there with an very open mind in order to even get threads of awareness that all the other members seemed to have and they did have it.
The first thing I had to do was get over the fear of going!! Yes she once or twice got angry and accused me of talking about her at meetings however she didn't have a clue either and wouldn't believe that no one there so much as knew her name. It was never mentioned. He will be in fear of you going as much as you will be in fear of going and hoping he won't find out and that is normal so be normal with the rest of us who continue to go because what you get at meetings will save your mind, body, spirit and emotions.
You have a problem with what you believe you need help with. It's your decision and motivation. He doesn't believe he has a problem. You believe you have a problem and need to go get help with it. If he balks and gets sideways with it, uses anger and threats, that's another issue usually dealt with that includes other professionals and services. You go for you and you don't bargin the choice. You are trying to get your needs met; the need for information and awareness and the need for help.
He sounds like a typical alcoholic to the extreem, self centered to the max so he might not really care outwardly. He will be affected and usually inside of his head and gut and that is good. Alcoholics hate self doubt and fear it interferes with their drinking.
It's not necessary to hold it over him like an ultimatum. Most people who find that they really have a need for something go find places to take care of those needs. It's normal...just like going to a doctor or priest or counselor. Now-a- days those professions suggest Al-Anon as most effective.
I don't go to meetings in Georgia and I know they are not very different than where I do go. You are welcomed and there is probably be an empty seat waiting for you.
(((((hugs)))))
Another alcoholic of mine was from Georgia. He was my drinking sponsor. He tried AA and decided it wasn't for him. I also tried AA and found that it was. He has been sober for 17 years. He stopped after it killed him. He was proud and supportive that I found another way out. So am I.
I will send you an article that I read on detachment. I hope I still have it. Its very helpful if you want you can send me your email thru a private note. Detachment is not easy, but you will catch on, its not that you ignore the alcoholic. We all have our boundaries, things we will do and things we won't. If it doesnt make you feel comfortable and you dont want to do it, whatever it is, then don't do it. I made a boundry regarding sex, I would not have sex with my husband if he was drunk, that was just me. I know it created a lot of other problems for me too, but I would not compromise on this and Im not sorry I did. Just One day at a time, you will grow in the program, you will see. Face to face meetings are great, but if this board is all you have and it works for you, thats ok too. Were here for you. Share and post anytime. Keep coming back. Luv, Bettina
Hi mm, I just wanted to share with you that many of us have heard these same old lines. Many of the things he said to you are standard alcoholic retoric. Most of the time they are attempting to convince themselves and hope you will believe it too.
He does not understand in any way shape or form why I want him to stop drinking, and furthermore he wants to know when I became such a damn teetotaler. (turning it back on you is classic, it takes the focus off of them)
The implication was that I'm not FUN anymore. (an attempt to make you feel bad about yourself. Something must be wrong with you, not him) left to his own devices he would choose to drink each and every night of the week because he LIKES to drink. (It's because they LIKE it, not because they can't stop)
there's nothing wrong with what he's doing. (that's how they live with themselves)
I heard these same lines over and over. As if hearing it enough would convince me.
All that kind of talk is what makes most of us nuts. They can't face their demons so they insinuate we are the nut jobs, no fun, blah blah. We start to doubt ourselves at some point. By the time we arrive in Alanon we usually are bonkers!
As far as the sex issue...If you don't want to be manipulated in to it because he will get angry, then don't. He'll figure out that not everything can be his way.
I pretty much told my husband (as he professed that there was nothing wrong with being disgustingly drunk every night) that it was a HUGE turn off for me so get used to it. I wasn't trying to make him stop drinking. I was just being honest. He had his feelings, I had a right to mine. He wanted to continue being drunk, I didn't want anything to do with him when he was. I figured he wanted me to live with and understand all his "truths", then he could deal with mine.
Alanon will help you make boundaries that are for your own preservation and sanity. When you know that they are healthy for you it is much easier to take a stand. There doesn't have to be big fights over issues.
Keep coming back to learn and grow.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
My AH was a perfectly reasonable social drinker when I met him, too. It turns out it's a progressive disease, so it gets worse over time. In my case I didn't put together his changed behaviour and attitudes with the increased drinking until after I'd been in Alanon several years - then it really made sense.
In his case, what had been a glass of wine with dinner, then the same the next night, for both of us, became - if there was wine left over, it was gone when I got up in the morning. He was keeping whiskey in the basement. I was using whiskey for a plant food supplement so I pre-mixed the fertilizer in and drew a skull and crossbones on the bottle - he drank that too.
I thought he "might be developing a problem with alcohol".
He actually went to a couple of AA meetings, said he "wasn't like those guys", quit going. Said he had decided to quit drinking, then was drinking again in 2 weeks.
Then boom - a couple of months later, he lost his job. Turns out he'd been drinking there too. Then 2 days later, he had an accident and got a dui. Today he says they should all have been killed - him and the 2 guys in the car he hit. This scared him enough that he actually got serious about AA, and started going every day. One of the things he heard there was about alanon for spouses and families and friends. He said to me, "YOU might like to try AL-anon". A few weeks later, he said it again. I thought, I SAID I would do anything to help, so I guess I have to go.
When I got there, it made no sense. All the words were English, but it was like a foreign language. But I heard things like, in the meeting introduction, "we too were lonely and frustrated", and I thought - how do they KNOW???? I was annoyed at so much of what I was hearing, but when I questioned it (I was blessed with a beginner's meeting, which gave me a format where I could ask questions in the meeting, not just afterwards) people were kind, reasonable, and still nodding their heads - many times they had asked the same questions. I noticed that my week was calmer when I had been to a meeting.
The upshot, as others have said, is that meetings are about ME. YOU are uncomfortable, and that's why you need a meeting for you. Even though mine was sober and was finally calling HIMSELF an alcoholic, I was very uncomfortable with applying that label to him, and I thought that my going to a meeting was applying the label. I finally realized that in reality, alanon was helping me learn healthier ways of being in the world - not just in relation to him, but in relation to others and to myself as well. I could have called it a personal growth seminar and that wouldn't have been a lie.
Another thought - if the kids have lots of neighborhood friends, maybe they could stay with a friend while you go to a meeting?
This is pretty rambling, but I hope there's something in here you can use - take what you like, and leave the rest. And - Welcome.
** oh, yes - those AA meetings where he "wasn't like those guys"? Today, it's "some of those guys have it so much worse than me".
been there, done that... like was said, "arguing with a drunk is just a session of insanity". why do it? if i could control you and tell you what to do, i would have you save all that energy and focus on you! do the things for you to get yourself healthy. face to face meetings, eating right, getting outside, smiling (just because). i KNOW that that sounds impossible... but what is there for us to do? try to control and manipulate our alcoholic spouse? never works, more insane. how do you deal with him now? don't.
you need to determine what is acceptable in your life and the life of your children. you mentioned that he thinks it is okay to drink around them. my boundary would certainly encompass me and my children's safety and well being. you have every right to ask him not to drink around the family, or he will have the consequence of not being a part of the family.
his anger and abuse (verbal or otherwise) will continue or get worse if he is not held accountable. i suggest you contact any state agency, or even do internet searches on Domestic Violence. you should never be scared, especially in your own home. never. ever. Sex is often a weapon of an abuser -- used not mainly for pleasure, but for control -- to keep self-esteem to a minimum. thinking the low points of my self-esteem, i understand how little you may (or may not) think of yourself and your ability to be a good human. let me reassure you: you can rise above all of this and have a great life... but ya gotta get to Al-anon meetings, ya gotta keep coming back here, and ya gotta begin learning the ins and outs of mm18123.
fear will always keep us in the dark. drop the fear, drop the darkness... you can do it! and we will be here to support you, all the way!
with love and hope, cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
to relate further to my previous message, it was acceptance that i needed to first learn.
i needed to ACCEPT that my wife is an alcoholic. she is an alcoholic, that is her, that is what she does.
i needed to ACCEPT that i am powerless over changing the fact that she is an alcoholic. the more i involve myself, my thoughts, my actions, into trying to change her drinking habits, the more insane and unmanagable my life becomes.
i needed to ACCEPT that my life did become unmanagable, and i needed help. i couldn't do it alone, and finally, down on my knees, i found Al-Anon... or, my Higher Power directed me to Al-anon... for me, it was in the form of a Victim Advocate telling me i needed to go, after my wife was arrested for the 2nd instance of DV.
i needed to ACCEPT that the Al-Anon program works, especially if i worked it. it felt really good to be around people that understood... i got to vent and let all of my anger and frustrations be heard... soon followed by the understanding of tools and skills that i really knew nothing about
there are a million more things that i have come to accept, but in the beginning, ACCEPTING help from my Al-anon family group, ACCEPTING help in my thinking, was the best, smartest, 100% right on, thing i've EVER done for me and my loved ones.
again, with love and hope, cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I am absolutely overwhelmed by the support shown in these responses. Not only wonderful, thoughtful advice, but acceptance and yes, the feeling that I'm not alone. I *know* logically that I am not a bad person, but the crazy stuff that gets thrown around by an alcoholic person can really mess with the mind. You can read about it a million times and still be stunned when it's directed at you by someone you love.
I think a lot of what you are saying is very typical par for the alcoholic course... they have no prob, it's all you, blah, blah. Good for you for telling him to stop the therapy, that could just be a situation where he goes for you & isn't doing any of the work & just be resentful of you. It is very understandable that a drunk is a turn off, too. It is not appealing in anyone, I find it funny that they have so little regard or understanding for us. When the shoe is on the other foot, they prob wouldn't stand for it. They just want to be able to progress in their disease & that's all they care about.
This Program is for us. I feel for you, when I was wish my exAH, he wouldn't "allow me" to get therapy. He sd, "I don't want you talking about me." Amazing how it's always about them! If I had a computer when I was married, I would have been using it. Nonetheless, I didn't come back to al-anon until I left his clutches. Some ppl do have to hide it. Truth is, it is personaly anyway, so even if he wouldn't get angry at you for seeking help, it is not easy stuff to share. I am recently learning to keep my growth to myself (not sharing it w/ friends or my mom as much anymore) b/c all the support I need is here.
I encourage you come to the chat room too. I don't know if you can come to mtgs on-line but we do have them twice a day, everyday & the meeting times are posted in the chat room @ top of page. There are some great ppl there who never post on the message Board and lots of times the immediate interaction makes me feel so much better, having a live conversation.
Take care of you! A friend in recovery, -kitty
-- Edited by kitty at 18:11, 2008-07-16
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
