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If only AH was capable of understanding how much I have forgiven him. But I wonder, can I truly forgive him if he is not worthy? Or am I really forgiving him at all? Maybe I am simply allowing unacceptable behavior to continue under the guise of forgiveness. In my heart I know I have not forgiven many things, I just wait for it to happen again. And what of myself, when his actions go too far? Can I forgive myself, knowing that it would happen?
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I'm like a pinch of tea...put me in hot water and see how strong I can be.
Hey Jamie, is that a bit of "stinking thinking" I hear? Do not be too hard on yourself. It is hard to forgive when things don't improve, or simply continue. Perhaps you may find it easier to think of it like this. You forgive him IN THAT MOMENT, and the moments all add up. Just because you forgive does NOT mean that you are a doormat...no, you simply try once more to move forward in that moment and recognise that in the forgiving you are healing your wound too.
I know that others will not agree with this thinking, however I have to say that it sure worked for me and the more I forgave the easier it was for me to move away from the awful moment, or act, or stress, or hurt, or distress, or disappointment. The act of forgiving simply helped me to, if you like try again, get a new start, wipe the slate clean so to speak so that I was NOT carrying too heavy a burden by NOT forgiving.
Hope you can understand my perspective on this? And I send you (((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) to day hoping that you will get through this without feeling that you are a DOORMAT, and giving yourself the credit that you so richly deserve for being so compassionate and forgiving.
Love Suzannah
-- Edited by Suzannah at 05:28, 2008-07-08
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Out of the ruin of my past I have found the fortress of myself and I know how to defend it.
Strive for WISDOM; Seek SERENITY; NEVER compromise your INTEGRITY.
I agree with Suzannah. I think when we forgive, it helps US. I forgive because I believe to be forgiven, we must forgive others. Whether they ask to be forgiven, deserve to be forgiven, change their offending behavior, or not - we are supposed to forgive. Sometimes I too wonder silently if forgiving is just a dressed up way of letting the offending behavior continue. But that's actually a separate issue. We can forgive whether the offending behavior ceases or not. What we do about allowing that behavior to be in our lives is something that should be examined separately. I'm FINALLY getting to the point where I know that loving and forgiving someone doesn't mean that I have to be with someone or embrace their character defects. Continue forgiving, but maybe begin deciding for yourself if this behavior is acceptable in your life.
I couldn't agree more, RJ. I know that forgiveness is part of our recovery, and I fake that one pretty well. I say I have forgiven, but deep in my heart I know I have not. It sounds right, and I am hoping it will make me feel right to say all is forgiven, and I understand, etc., etc. But I am afraid I am not as forgiving as I should be.
Sometimes I think if I could just haul off and knock him flat, I would feel such relief and catharsis. Maybe a good clout would usher in real forgiveness. Believe me, I've never hit anyone in my life, and I will not start with him. But it sounds so delightful...LOL!!!
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I think of forgiveness as something seperate from what I will or will not put up with.
Say that you have searched yourself, and found a boundary you are willing to enforce. You say to him "I can't live with this behaviour, if it happens again I am leaving." And then it happens again. Now, you know enough about him, you know enough about the disease, to understand that he is not doing this to hurt you. You know that he has compulsions, and sickness, deep inside him, and that this behaviour has nothing to do with you. So, instead of feeling rage, betrayal, etc, you can forgive this action (maybe not right away). However, you have already decided that for your own sake, you can't live with it. Therefore, you follow through on what you said, and leave.
Just because you can understand and forgive an action, does not mean that you have to stand there and be a target for it.
You already know this, it's just hard to apply it to the A, because it needs so much detachment. If you were treating your dog's wound, and the dog bit you, you wouldn't hold it against the dog. However, you would make sure he was held down and muzzled next time you touched that wound. When your three year old says "I hate you mommy" and hits you, you don't start hating the child. However, you soon put a stop to that hitting! If you've ever had a sick kid throw up all over you, you learn to recogize that "I'm gonna be sick" look, and stand to the side.
It's harder to have this common sense detachment with our spouses because we are 'supposed' to be able to trust them and not have to protect ourselves. However, the reality of loving an A is that "supposed to" has nothing to do with our lives. Our lives are about what IS, rather than what should be.
Ewwww.... I don't like that "forgiveness = doormat" analogy at all....
I believe that by giving "forgiveness", it is primarily for our own sanity and good, as it frees us from that bond of hatred and anger that destroys us internally....
I struggled with this for a long time, as I was determined NOT to ever forgive my ex, for all the grief she had caused me - I suppose I wanted revenge and retribution..... This is one of the MAJOR things my sponsor worked through with me.... once I realized that forgiveness was for me, and MY serenity, it became much easier to grant....
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
if it is not forgiveness that is given, it is something else (motive???)
(((RJ))) i urge you to get to as many face to face meetings as you can, where you can see real faces and lean on people. from what you've explained, this life is frought with chaos and toxicity. be gentle with yourself and feel all of your emotions -- it is okay to be angry and vent... get it out... it is okay to be sad and mourn this relationship with your hubby that is/has been brutal to endure...
it is also okay for RJ to ask for more; to ask for a better life; to ask for happiness and security; ask! the trick is to ask the people that can grant you those things... I'm thinking of 1 person... starts with a J, ends with an AMIE... and, your Higher Power might be someone/something to ask, also.
always, with love and hope... {can't have HoPe without HP) c
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I don't think forgiveness is a doormat reaction. I think maybe boundarylessness is. I am really convinced being bitter and angry is aging and destructive. Nevertheless for me resentment is a sure sign my boundaries are being trampled. Forgiving myself for being codependent is a hard one. I had to be nearly dead before I'd say I can't do this anymore. I was one stubborn person.
I'm with canadianguy on this one. Forgiveness is for me (and you too )
I've heard in these hallowed rooms "If you don't want to be a doormat anymore, simply get up off the floor." That sounded pretty simple to me. That I could do.
Keep coming, Maria
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If I am not for me, who will be? If I am only for myself, then who am I? If not now, when?
What you said about the common sense detachment makes sense to me. I guess I always tried to have this normal life with him but because of his drinking everything was the opposite. You can't trust him, instead you have to protect yourself. Nothing is normal as I knew it from before. Now since he quit, still nothing is normal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've been living life with all those expectations what could be and how our relationship should be instead of just living it.
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