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So, I've been dating this girl for about a year. She's an adult child of an alcoholic. I love her and she's been there for me through a lot of tough things, and when we're good together we're really good. But our fights get so bad, it scares me. She has a severe fear of abandonment due to being raised in an alcoholic family. She gets to such a vicious place sometimes (not physically vicious) because she's scared of being abandoned. I've spent a lot of time doubting us because of how hurtful our fights have gotten. But I do love her, and she is trying to work her program in Al-Anon, so I'm not giving up on her.
We had a series of bad fights over the weekend, and we've gotten better over the past few days. But on one of the nights of our bad fights, I called my best friend. Today, he called me back and asked what had happened. I tried to play it off like it was nothing, but he can read me so well, he didn't buy it. I tried to play it off as all my fault, he didn't buy that either. I realized how sketchy I come off when I do that. The truth is, I don't want people to know how much we fight. I don't think that people outside of our relationship will understand all the fighting. And when I talk to people like my best friend, and I hear that disapproval in their voices, it shakes my confidence every time. I wonder: well, if they think it's such a bad idea to stay in this, am I just in deep denial?
Wow, welcome to MIP Miracles in Progress & I'm so glad you found the Board.
I have a very special place in my heart for newbies. Let me first say, there are 2 mtgs daily in the chat room, 24/7 open chat & obviously this Board.
There are a lot of ACoA's here, I being one of them. The book 12 Steps for ACoA's has really helped me a lot... the chapter on feelings & how we "magically" take responsibility for other's feelings ~ seeing the emotions twisting on paper, is not only enlightening but reasurring that we "aren't crazy."
You are not alone, you will have many instant friends here that truly do understand - as the saying goes, until you experience a thing for yourself - well, it is very easy to be judgemental. You won't find judgement, criticism here & no one will tell you what to do. We share ESH experience, strength & hope.
When any sentient being is abused, after some point we do become untrusting of good things & we attack others b/c we don't always feel like we are worth it.
Odd as it sounds, co-dependents (aca's) don't know how to care for ourselves, we are born into a life in which our needs don't exist & we cater & serve others, out of fear, manipulation whatever we try to ppl please others.
Only you can know what is right for you. I have a b/f that is not an addict/alkie or ACoA... his parents are still married to each other, he can't even relate to me being a product of divorce! My mom's been married 5 times & to her present AH, 27 years. The point being, he says things to me in anger that he doesn't even mean to say. I mention stuff a few days or weeks later & have to ask, 'were u trying to be hurtful/mean to me?' b/c I don't know, I'm very literal, English is after all the only language I know.
Don't be afraid to share, we are only as sick as our secrets... shame makes us very ill. Sometimes the first step is the hardest. Even baby, micro steps are forward.
Some ACoA's become addicts themselves. I do find we have some complicated issues. I want to save the world but have no clue how to love myself! We are a dichotomy! I am very self-destructive & will kick myself b4 u get a chance to.
But I'm an only child, share willingly... idk I could write for hours! I found al-anon/aca when I was 17... I am now 40. Some days I feel like I don't know a bloody thing.
welcome & keep coming back,
in love & support, kitty
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I can only speak from experience ..I learned by coming to the meetings and working the program and listening to great shares that fit my situations that................it takes two to fight. If the other party elects to not engage (refuse party invitation) then it boils down to one person throwing a hissy fit.
I learned to say what I mean and mean what I say and not say it in a mean way.
When others are having a bring it on attitude, I work to remember, I have options. Using the THINK slogan reminds me that if what I have to say isn't thoughtful, honest, intelligent, necessary or kind then it doesn't need sad.
I've also come to understand if I suggest, ask or say something once...it's a gentle reminder, if I continue repeating myself that's called nagging.
In this program we learn to identify our part and be willing to take responsiblity for our words and actions. What some tend to forget is words are like toothpaste, once out of the tube it can't be put back.
If I love someone and they aren't meeting what I find acceptable in a relationship, then only I am to blame for not setting boundaires. I have always learned we teach others how to treat us, meaning if we accept poor treatment/behavior it than sends the message...I will put up with this.
Please know you are welcome to continue seeking this site out. Know your posts are welcome and please remember this program is designed not to change others actions but to learn to take better care of ourselves.
I know in Al-Anon they always tell you to look at your own part in everything that happens. But I can't get over the idea that that just feels like a week way to look at it. If we are codependent--which I definitely am, the more I look at this the more I start to realize that I was raised by two parents who were at least codependent, if not adult children themselves--how are we learning to stand up for ourselves by blaming ourselves for our partners' outbursts? Aren't we just continuing to be pushovers?
I say this not to second guess the Al-Anon logic, but because I really want someone to explain it to me.
How often are you getting to face to face meetings? You're off to a great start. You're in the right place. In Al-Anon we learn how to keep our side of the fence clean. Doing this enables others in our lives to do the same for themselves. As you learn to set boundaries, how to detach with compassion and thoughtfully reflect on issues before you respond, your girlfriend will start to recognize the changes you're making and will perhaps start to make changes for herself. She's in Al-Anon - she knows what she can be working on, too - but it's not always easy, for sure.
It's good that you reached out to others. With the advice I get from friends and family who may not have truly walked the same path as me, I try to take the Al-Anon philosophy of "take what you like and leave the rest". I take what good, loving words they've offered and drop the ones that perhaps leave me feeling defeated, worthless, dumb, or whatever other negative feeling.
One really big important thing for me is to not allow others opinions to become the basis on how I view myself. I'm sure if I told my situation to a group of 10 strangers, nine of them would be telling me "you must be crazy to stay with your AH". But they're not living my life. The don't know ALL of it, and that's okay. I ultimately get to be the one who decides what I do with myself and other peoples' opinions on what I should or should not be doing ultimately don't matter, nor does their perception of me. Another great slogan I hear a lot: "what others think of me is none of my business".
You're in the right place. I think I already said that. I want to welcome you and encourage you to keep coming back. And keep going to face to face meetings. I might recommend perhaps not attending the same ones as your girlfriend - these are very personal meetings, and each of you needs to be able to open up very freely about your concerns and cares without having to hold yourself back in fear of upsetting your loved one. If you don't have a sponsor, start looking for one, and start working those twelve magical steps.
n Al-Anon they always tell you to look at your own part in everything that happens. ...how are we learning to stand up for ourselves by blaming ourselves for our partners' outbursts?
Looking at your own part doesn't mean taking full blame for what occurred. Just taking ownership in how you reacted if things turned out bad and left you personally feeling resentful and unhappy.
Say your girlfriend snapped at you for no good reason... you have several choices in how to respond.
You could snap right back, play the "I can hurt you just as much as you hurt me" game.
You could simply walk away and let the argument drop.
You could sit and let her snap and not take it personal - let her vent but know in your heart you're not the true problem - it's an insecurity she's currently having and she's taking it out on you.
There are sooo many different ways to respond to irrational attacks by our partners (whether they're A's or ACA's or co-dependents or whatever).
But if you snapped back and things got out of hand, that's where you take responsibility for your part in the results of the argument.
You're not being a pushover or punching bag if you walk away from an irrational attack or sit and let her vent. If you're really practicing serenity, no amount of vicious things she says to you will really have much effect on you because you know damn sure it's not true.
You also have the option of setting boundaries. You may sit and allow her to vent one time, but the next time you can calmly tell her something along the lines of "I love you, but it is unacceptable for you to talk to me like that. I'm leaving the room now until you can calm down and we can talk about it later."
Again - I encourage you to get to some more face to face meetings - pick up some of the free pamphlets, too, and see where you and your girlfriend fit in. She may not be an alcoholic (you didn't specify), but to me, the Al-Anon philosophy applies to everyone in our lives, whether they're alcoholics, addicts, or not.
She's not an alcoholic or an addict, no. I've tried walking away, but the problem is that because of her abandonment issues, every time I walk away from an argument she interprets it as me abandoning her. And after an incident the other night where I almost did walk away from her completely, and changed my mind once I was out the door, I'm trying to win back her trust. I don't know how to walk away from a fight in a way that she won't interpret as abandonment.
I have real abandonment issues myself - as does my AH. I have on a couple occasions when we were getting heated told him "I have to leave." but I tell him very honestly "I'm not leaving for good, I am coming back, I just need to get out of the house or room right now or things are going to get worse."
If you tell her that or something along those lines, then you've done all you can. The rest is up to her. It is HER problem that she needs to face. You can't do it FOR her.
So long as you let her play the "fear of abandonment" card, the longer she'll keep using it and not seek recovery from it.
It's the same thing as us dealing with our A's and them threatening to leave us - we turn around and cry "No! Please don't leave!" then they will keep using it to manipulate a situation.
I've made it very clear to my AH that if we argue and I walk out, I'm not doing it to walk out for good, it's to get myself settled down or I'll just make things worse on my end. I've also learned how to call my AH's bluffs if he threatens to leave - I let him. Either he'll be back or he won't - that's not up to me, but I'll be okay regardless what the results, and I also take it as a blessing in disguise recognizing it's a good opportunity for both of us to settle down.
A good trick I've learned with the walking out thing, too, is to immediately call another Al-Anon member or my sponsor to discuss. That way I don't get myself wrapped up in the problem in my own little world and go rushing back before I'm ready.
Remember - SHE chooses to view it as abandonment. You know you're not abandoning her, just going out to cool off. She has to learn on her own that you're not leaving her for good or to hurt her.
Now - if you say something like "I'm leaving and I'm not coming back!" but you keep coming back despite your threat, then that's something on your part where you're manipulating the situation.
The best way to respect others is if you say you're going to do something, then mean it and do it and don't backpedal because you'll just confuse them.
Welcome to MIP! There is alot to be learned and tools to help us deal with any situation. I am an ACOA and married an ACOA/A. There are alot of dynamics in relationships. For my AHSober and I we were told the we have a love addiction/love avoidant relationship. He is the avoidant and leaves all the time - finally moved out 3 years ago. And I am the love addict who has the abandonment issues. They tell you that you get hooked into a cycle of avoiding and addicting and whala the fighting begins. They tell us to stay on Alanon here and at meetings. So when we do go to meetings and learn to use the tools, we learn to be mature and tuck to old behaviors in our back pockets. Hope this helps. Keep coming back!
Aloha wrote: Now - if you say something like "I'm leaving and I'm not coming back!" but you keep coming back despite your threat, then that's something on your part where you're manipulating the situation.
The problem is, I've done that. I did it the other night, and I feel like shit about it. Part of it was that I was trying to manipulate the situation, but part of it was that I thought I wanted to do it at the time, then the second I was out the door I regretted doing it. Now I just feel like I need to stick around all the time because I made the mistake and I owe it to her, which of course isn't true.
Ive tried to manipulate my situation with my A by saying that if I leave I cant come back, too. Ive done it so many times before that during our last big issue (before the one yesterday, that is), that he said you always do. He knows Ill come back. Actually, he now expects me to. The last time I tried to stay away for about a week to give it time, he was so angry when I did go to his house that he said I needed to leave for good because it was too late, and I took to long to come back.
So she is right. I now try to remember when I feel the need to leave, to tell him I love him but Im just not comfortable being around him when he is like that so I need to leave, and I will be back. I do let him know that I'm not sure how I'll feel later, though (if it was a really bad issue). That gives him time to think, if and when he can.
This is a good place where you do recognize the part you played. You can now do something about it. You can make amends and apologize, you can learn not to ever say that thing to her again unless you know you REALLY mean it... you can pray to your HP for guidance and strength so if it happens again, you leave the room with compassion and not with anger...
I made the mistake once of telling my AH if he drinks again I'll leave, knowing full well at that time that I really honestly didn't have it 100% in me to do it. It made both of us absolutely miserable for quite a while. He was stewing with absolute anger over it, and I felt like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs every time I was around him. The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
I finally lifted that threat from him - I apologized to him for it and told him I'm never going to threaten our relationship again. And that was it. And I mean it.
If it ever gets to a point where I've just had it, I'm not going to tell him "don't do that again or else"... there is no "or else", I'm just going to leave. But I know I'm not going to leave unless I'm fully ready to do so and that I have no possible chance of wanting to go back.
I'm not there now, though. I honestly don't want to leave - so that's why I will not threaten to do it.
Go easy on yourself. You're doing the best you can right now - but I've found that it makes things so much easier for me when I'm willing to apologize for behaving badly. I try not to make promises on unrealistic things, like "I promise we'll never fight again", but I do promise myself at least to remember and try to do better the next time.
Once again - I'm so glad you're here. :) Keep coming back, my friend. You're worth it.
keith, you are in territory that was SO familiar to me.
Abandonment is a huge issue. Huge. When left un-addressed, it will not just get better or go away, it will grow and loom larger and larger.
My soon to be ex husband would blow a gasket if I happen to stray from his sight in a large warehouse-sized superstore like Home Depot, etc. that was how bad his abandonment issues got, when left unaddressed. It created a horrible fissure between us- him trying to manipulate me into not leaving his presence- not leaving the room, not leaving his sight, etc. it got worse and worse. It is a serious mental illness issue for him, one that he is in denial about.
The truth of the situation is, is that this is a high level anxiety disorder in some people. The truth was that no matter how much I reassured him and felt completely committed to him, I eventually felt tremendous resentment about how closely I was being monitored and ultimately manipulated. Nothing I could say or do would re-assure him. He had his own story going in his head about how I was constantly walking out on him and would leave him high and dry- I hung in there but eventually I did need to leave. I could no longer live with that anymore. I wanted a better life. I wanted to either be on my own or be with someone who is happy.
Please proceed with caution. Your best friend most likely has known you a long time. Do not dis them or their perceptions and thoughts- listen and mull it over, quietly and ask god for help on this.
What is it about all the fighting that you like? There must be something about it or else it would not be something that you would be willing to engage in. Be honest with yourself. Hugs, J.
Jean, wow I relate ~ when I was married to my ACoA, ex H/addict, manic-depressive... the manipulation, ultimate & total isolation & control he had over me, came slowly, insidiously at first, growing a little more each day - his bullying & verbal/psychological abuse with me ~ I was not "allowed" to go anywhere once I was home from work.
He had to know where I was at every minute of every day, I worked 50 hrs/week just to be away from him.
In the apt, he followed me from room to room - not giving me 5 minutes peace - "saying" 'he married for companionship - ugh!
He would stay home on Mondays (my sunday-mondays, off) so I couldn't call my mother & she eventually said, "Kat, I can't take it, nothing ever changes, it pains me to hear the same things over & over."
I actually did not talk to my mother for over a year b/c 'he didn't like it - that I was more codependent on her' - she didn't like that I was stuck or whatever.
One puts up with mistreatment/abuse until they decide to stand up for themselves (that's how it played out for me).
Ultimately, it became a choice of him or me, I had to pick me & leave. Plus, after a week or a month (can't recall) of marriage, he began to always say, "if u don't like it we can divorce, my way or the highway" ~ after hearing that 4+ years or 10,000 times, I took the highway.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
"I know in Al-Anon they always tell you to look at your own part in everything that happens. But I can't get over the idea that that just feels like a week way to look at it. If we are codependent--which I definitely am, the more I look at this the more I start to realize that I was raised by two parents who were at least codependent, if not adult children themselves--how are we learning to stand up for ourselves by blaming ourselves for our partners' outbursts? Aren't we just continuing to be pushovers?
I say this not to second guess the Al-Anon logic, but because I really want someone to explain it to me." -keithw
Only you can say if you are ACoA or codie, if so (which I am) - it isn't that we're to "blame" for someone else's behavior or lack of emotional intelligence nor is it possible that we are the cause of it.
When I was 15, I tried to shoot myself, this landed me in a psychiatric hospital for 4 months. I was so disassociated from my emotions, I couldn't differentiate one feeling from another. Screaming in group & saying "i'm not angry" with therapists & other patients all nodding, saying, "yep you are experiencing rage/anger" - okay, had to accept & re-learn basic human feelings b/c I had no adult parent (or anyone up to that point) giving me emotional guidance. Anyway, at that time I said a lot, "this person makes me feel this/that way" - your feelings are your own... no one can "force" you to feel any kind of way, you may react to them in a certain way but they don't have that power over you, unless you relinquish it & allow them that power.
Being 'joined at the hip' is irrational. Healthy humans have friendships, hobbies, interests, we are all different. It is utterly manipulative & lacking in responsibility to say ' u are responsible for another's outburst.' In fact, simply blaming someone else, means we aren't taking responsibility for ourselves. ( I love English ) - responsibility means the ability to respond.
All I'm saying is relationships are a two way street, it takes two people. You can choose not to speak/respond... set boundaries about what you're willing to tolerate for your own serenity. The thing about not sticking to ur word (boundaries - threats) is you don't follow through, they assume you are a liar & will walk all over you.
That is the past, today, at any time, you can choose to start over, try again with resolve. That's why working through the steps (esp step 4, getting to accept & know your own personality - faults/strengths) makes setting personal boundaries easier or even possible.
Up until 2 yrs ago (when I was 38) I was so unhealthily sick, codie on my mother, we could be 2,000 miles apart & a comment from her would destroy me inside - I had no internal personal boundaries within myself.
Just b/c my loved one is upset, I don't have to take it on & "try to assume" or accept responsibility for them - that is like an addict/alcoholic saying, "you make me drink" or "you make me crazy" -- no one would force feed drugs or alcohol to our loved one.
I have gained a lot of weight recently, I did it to myself. I can change that, only me, myself.
It's like the 3 C's - I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it ~ but I can control myself, change myself & heal (cure) myself.
Another interesting thing A's do is they already loathe themselves, so they think if you can love them, you must really be undeserving gutter puke - so they can hate you for loving them. ( I did it as a non-A - all the self-sabatoge behaviors & 'I'll run you off b4 you can hurt me' stuff.)
I don't know, does that sort of speak to your question about doormat vs. responsibility?
your friend in recovery, -kitty
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
KeithW., Whoa dude, I have a sister like the girlfriend you describe. My history is that I am the oldest of three girls with two alcoholic parents. I was the tallest least pretty one and my two younger sisters where smaller and prettier. I always tried to do good at school and left home at 18 and have been independent financially since. I have had terrible struggles with my own issues around abandonment and taking care of people.
I just spent two weeks with my sister who sounds a lot like how you describe your girlfriend. I found it really stressful to be around all that crazy making stuff. I started smoking and covering up the truth very quickly. My husband was really great and although not easy to talk to about what was going on at least he was a steady adult who I could depend on.
I love my sister and can't really dump her but I had to really accept a lot of difficult behavior in order to keep the relationship on an even keel. She insisted that I sign a paper to some comments my mother had made that made her feel threatened. She actually had a lawyer notorize this paper and made it a condition of us staying with her. It was the truth but she has a tendency to make small things into legal action.
She spent a lot of time with my middle sister in court over a doll. So I have no fantasies about the energy she is willing to expend over things that for me I would just ignore or blow off. At the one week mark she abruptly insisted we go to my friend house and kicked us out. This was after buying about 300 dollars worth of groceries and all her kids pants and basically catering to her every whim. I was already exhausted but doing it so my son could spend a little time with his cousins. Than she changed her mind. It was really devestating for me emotionally to have her act out her abandonment and do all that drama stuff. I was stressed to have to be nice and calm no matter how horrid she was being.
I love my sister and its not always easy to have house guests but I felt that I was always walking on egg shells and that she created a lot of drama for herself. I pretty much kept calm and went about my normal business but inside realized that I would rather pay the hotel room in the future. I felt pretty burnt out by the time I left there. But I left on good terms and dealt with all her paranoia and crazy making. I internally imploded to cope with it.
I live in Paris and next summer have secured a summer job in our town in the usa, and an appartment, and my cousin is going to help me with a car so I can stay without having to stay with her. I don't know if I could handle it again. Fortunately I stopped smoking the day before we left and have not smoked since. My baby son enjoyed his cousins and I was glad to hang out with the kids but my sister is a huge stressor for me.
Next summer I will not have a lot of contact with her and just some small events for the kids and stay in my own place. Again I think she does a great job with her kids and her life but her interpersonal relationships basically are really impaired. And I think she needs constant disruption. So my thought if you can deal with the contant drain of staying calm with a crazy person, be my guest. I think with Alanon and maybe if your girlfriend is in counseling longterm your relationship can continue. Alanon so you have a place to tell the truth without the judgement of your friends. I love my sister this is a lifetime relationship and I tend to gravitate toward difficult people.
I don't have any particular advise except that I was really relieved to get away from that situation. I found that my disenfranchisement of me by my mother actually saved my life because I became my own person away from that kind of behavior. Just glad to be home.
So its possible but there are easier people to make relationships with. Again I have a strong tendency to gravitate toward difficult people. Christine
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One must always do what one thinks can not be done.
-Eleanor Roosevelt-
I'm not sure al anon is the program of choice for someone with abandonment issues. Has she considered therapy? Have you considered couples therapy?
Has she done some research on this?
Claudia Black has written a great book/exercises on abandonment.
Can't you explore options. I am someone with abandonment issues. They did get better with therapy but it was hard going. Relationshps were very very very very difficult for me.
The other issue is she probably has PTSD is she was abandoned so much. Is she in groups/therapy for that? Will she be willing to look at that.
Alanon so you have a place to tell the truth without the judgement of your friends (just the judgement of the people in Alanon hahaha). Therapy, look in the yellow pages. There are all kinds of therapists to choose from, call around for prices and first time intro appointments with several people, sometimes some programs even offer free therapy. but the thing i like about Alanon for me, is that you don't have to hide your life like we do with some of our coworkers or friends. In Alanon it would be a place where you would not have to hide your arguing or hers. I am a big therapy fan also.
And many many people who have no drinking history in their families struggle with all kinds of difficult issues who are not even alcoholic. Just normal ole life is pretty hard. Once alcohol via a family member or whatever, is not the problem it comes down to relationships and facing the truth about ourselves which is definately not easy for me. Therapy has helped me face the truth about myself a little bit more but with each passing year I get a little more honest about the truth about my pain. I have gulp become friends with my pain. Now if I can just become friends with salad for dinner instead of spaghetti.
junehouse
-- Edited by junehouse at 05:52, 2008-05-30
-- Edited by junehouse at 05:54, 2008-05-30
__________________
One must always do what one thinks can not be done.
-Eleanor Roosevelt-
I've suggested therapy, and couples counseling to her. She doesn't want to do either. She doesn't trust therapists. She does believe she has PTSD, and she's trying to read up on that and on her own abandonment issues and do everything she can to try and address it in a sort of self therapy. I don't like it, but it's her life, I can't make her do anything.
hi keithw, oh it takes a long time for people to come around to the idea of therapy. i for one was incredibly therapy resistant for many years and thought only really crazy people went to therapy as I was the hero child. Anyhoo, after years of reading self help books going to Alanon and having good finances and a responsible job and everything I was still miserable. So finally I starting trying to go to therapy at 32 years old. I quit the first two or three time but got so desperate I actually started working in therapy. So I went three years and it saved my life and I have really benefited from it but it took me lots of years of people telling me about therapy before I would even consider it. So I am very grateful for all the people who suggested it to me although it took me a good ten years to get in a therapists office. I remember this one guy I worked with who finally tipped me over into going into therapy. He was very kind to me and he said he had gone to therapy and he hooked me by saying "we don't know why therapy works we just know it does". Anyway I have often thought of trying to find him on the internet and sending him a thankyou card but it would be unlikely I could find him after all these years. So it was not any one person that finally convinced me to go to therapy just many people over the years who had what I wanted. Junehouse8
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One must always do what one thinks can not be done.
-Eleanor Roosevelt-
