The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
You have said to me don't go to the hardware store to get milk. The As don't have what we want or need. Go to meetings, get a sponsor, work your recovery program, and get what you need from your HP. I go to my AHsober for less and less. Mainly because he is less and less available. I have glimmer of understanding that this isn't about me but it is about the disease. I have learned so much in the last three years of living alone. I have more skills on board then I thought. I have asked for help and received help on everything from the chainsaw to money to free advise. The help has come from family, friends, Alanon, and strangers. The A and I still share finances but they basically are separate except for our sons expenses. In my lonely nights and crisises when there is no one around and no one to call, I miss that connectness to a life partner. I sure miss that. And yes I did settle for crumbs but sometimes it helped. So do I ask for some kind of emotional support? Do I just put my wall up and give him back what he gives me? What are we suppose to get from the A?
I think it is good to expect nothing from the A. If we truely expect nothing we are not setting ourselves up to be let down. Also, high expectations seemed to be harmful to my AH. I know he was under a lot of pressure to live up to my expectations for a long time. It was hurtful and damaging to him that I could not accept him as he is, warts and all. When we expect more than they are capable of giving, our disappointment is communicated to them even when we try not to show it. They just know they have let us down again, and it hurts and confirms to them how bad they are, not how sick.
I think too that it is a symptom of our disease that we think we can "expect" things into being. We think that just because we expect it and it makes perfect sense to us that that is how it is. This kind of thinking keeps us in the grip of chaos and hurts those around us, esp the ones closest to us. It is not limited to our interaction with the A either. I know I did this same type of thing to my son and my mom. I expected of them more than they could give, and it hurt them.
Anyway, that's my esh. hope it makes some sense.
In recovery,
__________________
~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Nancy, I get hung up on this one, too. Not just with the A, but with everyone. I've heard it said that we should not expect things from other people. Nothing? Not ever? What's the point then? I realize that high or unrealistic expectations set us up for a fall, but regular old expectations? I dunno. Maybe my idea of "regular old expectations" is the flaw. I DO expect things from the people in my life. I know they expect things from me. Maybe it's a matter of semantics. I count on people in my life for certain things, and they count on me, too. We're all humans - and we (dare I say...) need each other.
Maybe we're let down a lot by our A's. I like what Jen said about putting expectations on them that puts pressure on them. I think that's true - at least with my A. But at some point, we've got to step up. All of us. Even our A's.
Like Lou, I too am eager to read others' responses to this.
My sponsor taught me about proper expectations and I just absorbed it and used it as my mind set because I was unwilling to keep doing, "the same thing over and over again expecting different results." It wasn't an emotional thing or a spiritual thing mostly a mental thing. He taught me to expect from the alcoholic only what it was that she could give and then not even to expect those things when she was actively drinking. Great direction from a sponsor when you consider that my fantasies were replaced for reality.
I found out that it was a part of that insanity/sanity atmosphere that I use to live in by default. When I opted for sanity I woke up and did his suggestions when I found myself insane I found myself in the default of just expecting her to be "normal" as I understood normal. She wasn't and I wasn't normal. Expectations can be met if I am not into assuming and more into reality and participating on that level. Even my clean and sober friends and family at times don't meet my expectations so it comes back to checking out my expectations protocols. I have learned to ask another person can they and will they after I express my needs while watching the body language along with listening to the verbal stuff. Progress not perfection...I still work at it with everyone.
Met or unmet expectations are not a condition for love/don't love as is agreed between my Higher Power and myself and the program and myself. If it were a condition I'd be in relapse eternally without any self esteem or hope.
What are we suppose to get from the A? Maybe the answer is in direct relation to what we give.
Keep coming back. (((((hugs)))))
After thought: The same sponsor taught that If I placed no expections (real or unreal) on my alcoholic when she came thru for me than I could be surprised and if she didn't I would not be hurt. Hows that for wizardry?
I see LOTS of people in all kinds of friendships and relationships that have healthy expectations of each other. I can name lots of friends of mine- we have healthy give and take expectations.
I know of couples who have GREAT marriages and relationships. IT IS POSSIBLE.
I have detached so much from my AH that I am now seeking a divorce. I no longer wish to be financially involved with him. I no longer love him. Too much bad blood, long distance and too little in common. Plain and simple. I also had a DV situation with my AH which does not warm my little heart towards him. He is a bully.
I have a disease- I keep the focus on me through this program. I am no longer going to the hardware store for a loaf of bread.
I have chosen not to dwell on what I am not getting back. I have chosen to face the reality of my marriage. Its not good. It has not been in quite some time. I have rarely gotten my needs met in that relationship- I want something good and I want to be in a relationship where my needs are met. I am willing (happily so) to be alone if I cannot be in a relationship where my basic needs are getting met. By staying married I am pretending to be in a union. I am not united with this man in any way, shape or form. I do not want to pretend anymore.
You mean a life partner who loves you unconditionally, who supports all of your decisions, even those that lead you to ignore him, to fall and to feel great pain? A partner who loves you without judgment, who not only celebrates your joy but is a true source of it for you? A partner who is there for life, and who will be right there in your ups and downs, even there to hold your hand as your life passes on into the next life? "The kingdom of heaven is within you." And that is exactly how far you have to look for that partner, in my humble opinion. God bless
What can you expect? I guess what you get is a good indication of what to expect. If you can truly say that you get nothing from the alcoholic in your life, then the question becomes - why is this person in your life?
So, it does come back to your expectations. If you expect anything like a "normal" marriage, then you are most likely out of luck. However, there is a lot in life that does not fit that standard. I didn't get 'normal' from my husband. I didn't get 'reliable'. I mostly didn't get emotional support, though he could surprise me sometimes. What I did get was love, even if it didn't look like love in the movies. I got fun. I got him - the man he really was, whom I loved. The reason it was enough was that I was getting other things from other people and places. If I had depended on him for my sole close relationship, I'd have been in a lot of trouble. However, because all I depended on him for was to be himself, it worked out OK.
What do I get from my A? Well, I think that's more like coming up a list of pro's about my A, really.
I've been learning that for something things, YES, it is like going to an empty well and expecting to find water there. But for other things, his well is full.
Do I want adventure? Well, my A is certainly full of that!
In fact, my A and I had a fantastic afternoon yesterday - we took a couple kites he bought for us to the beach, let the wind grab them and flied them for a good two hours, lying down on the beach, I sometimes took my kite for a walk along the shoreline where the water was washing up so got my feet wet and enjoyed the feeling of the sand under my feet and the cool water washing over my skin.
Would I have thought of doing that? Probably not. It was a very fun evening, and we stayed late enough to watch the sun start to set... and when we got bored with the kites, we built a little sand-man "snowman" in the sand - had him facing the ocean so he could enjoy the view, too.
AH's kite was really fun, too - it's a huge 8-foot long octopus with tentacles that wave in the wind, and the kite he got me was a pretty butterfly with little streamers at the ends of its wings.
My AH surprises me sometimes... and other times he's like talking to a brick wall.
I just have to keep a lookout for the positive things, and that's where I learn what I can "expect" from my A.
I agree, though, that if you want the whole shebang... that's going to come from no one but your HP.
I shared that when I was getting ready to go to Las Vegas I wasn't excited at all. I was in fact even dreading it.
I went there with absolutely no expectations that my AH would do anything at all toward making our vacation a good time. I considered what I see at home. He sleeps all day and drinks all night, does virtually nothing to help out around the house. He is usually asleep when I leave for work and gets up just to have dinner, then goes back to sleep.
Since I was expecting nothing, I was pleasantly surprised when my AH took me to a Vegas show, then out to dinner afterward. He DID NOT drink the entire 4 days of our trip, even though he was offered free frinks in every casino.
I only realized afterward that probably the reason our trip was so nice was BECAUSE I went with absolutely no expectations at all.
The first day we were there, though my AH asked me a curious question. He asked me how I manage to stay so cheerful all the time. I answered that I owe it all to my HP who is in charge of my life now.
Love,
Claudia
__________________
A person's a person no matter how small --Dr Suess
Well I don't know that I ever looked at the A full frontal (and I mean that in an emotional sense) and saw that he was not reciprocating. Yes sure he might do "something" if he was nagged and begged to do it but voluntarily nope. He became incredibly manipulative, demanding and self absorbed as his disease progressed.
He was not always like that. I spent a tremendous amount of energy trying to wheedle something out of him. In fact I'd say the only thing that changed that for me was making a plan b and focusing on that. I know when I was focusing on how little the A gave me I had no sense of what I needed. I was not taking care of myself at all.
So for me using the tools of Al anon was not about focusing on what the A didn't do. He did less and less and less over time it was about focusing on me and how could I take care of me.
When I can take care of me then I can start being clear about what I can and can't do for others. I have no sense of where I begin and others end. I give til I drop.
I think that may be the point. We can stay if we choose and shouldn't feel guilty if we do it's not a crime to love an A, we just can't expect to ever really be loved back. They love the bottle, they love the baggage and pain that causes them to stay in the bottle, they love themselves and will do whatever it takes to protect themselves....even act like they might reach out to us just a litttle. just enough to make us hope and stay, just enough to be able to jerk the rug out from under us again... we can never think we will have "emotional support" of a "partner". Only the manipulation and "charm" they turn on to get their needs met. We are making the choice to stay with someone who only cares about their own survival and comfort. In my case I actually think his "care' button is broken, broken, broken, !!!! He's not being mean he just literally doesn't have it in him to care for my feelings.Charm yes oh yes, cuz that gets him what he wants and always has. I'm learning there is a huge difference in "baby I love you bla bla bla... and listening to me tell him how I feel.... the latter just "ain't gonna happen"
It's not that we don't ever get anything out of the relationship with the A. Many of us do eventually, esp if they do get sober. It's our expectations that seem to get us into the frame of mind that says "poor me, I am the victim, I never get my needs met by them". That thinking is counter-productive. It has us looking at what we don't have instead of what we do have. Our Al-Anon program teaches us to look at what we do have and what we do need and how we can go about getting that from ourselves and HP.
The interesting thing about my journey so far is that when I finally really let go of expecting anything whatsoever from my AH, he finally did get sober and now I sometimes feel guilty for all he gives. I have noticed me judging myself to be too lazy and not doing enough. It's like I feel I have to keep up. I have to remind myself that it is ok for me to let him be responsible for stuff. It helps me learn to let go of stuff and helps him build self esteem and confidence in himself. And I do deserve a break. It's not like I don't work. I have kids and livestock and a business to run. I'm just not used to him doing anything.LOL
So eventually some of us do get something out of the A. At the moment I am getting a fair amount of love and support(emotional and financial). I am getting honesty too as that is one of the things he has worked the hardest on. But I always have to remember that it is for the moment. It may or may not last. I have to learn to enjoy it while it is here, and detach when it is not.
I had to learn to look at reality, at where my AH is right now, and say to myself "Ok, this I am not going to get from him today. So where else do I look for what I need." And that brings me right back where I need to be, focusing on me.
In recovery,
__________________
~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
I've gotten so much from this thread. Jen - what you posted made so much sense to me, especially the line, "I have to learn to enjoy it while it is here, and detach when it is not." I'm discovering more and more that instead of waiting and looking for the bad to come - I need to enjoy what I have today. We've only got this moment anyway. Tomorrow it all may come tumbling down, but the reality is that tomorrow may come tumbling down for anyone - not just those involved with A's. No - I don't EXPECT that every day will be like the wonderful day I'm having now - but I can ENJOY the wonderful day I'm having now and do what I need to do to take care of myself so that when and if the rug gets pulled out, I can still stand and have some serenity.
My A is my son. I don't really have to depend on him doing things for me (as in a relationship with a significant other). I can also relate this thread to my non A hubby. Over the last 5 or 6 years he has become very unmotivated, easily irritated and does not want anyone to ask anything of him. It is beginning to take a toll on our marriage. I want him to see his doctor but he will not admit that anything is wrong with him. He will always say he is not in a bad mood when his actions show something different. I really have to let go of my expectations of him now or I will just be going to the hardware store to buy bread.
Jen said in her reply:
I had to learn to look at reality, at where my AH is right now, and say to myself "Ok, this I am not going to get from him today. So where else do I look for what I need." And that brings me right back where I need to be, focusing on me.
Doesn't that really apply to everyone in our life when we need to take care of ourselves? I'm certainly going to keep that thought with me....Thanks Jen!
My husband is sick right now, Gailey, so can't really say any reason other than that for his behavior similar to what you describe. But I attribute much of it to his great disappointment and grief over OUR son's problems with alcohol and subsequent marital breakup. Fathers also can sink into the abyss of grief, but somehow they don't allow themselves to openly show what moms do. For example, when it gets too much for me, I cry my eyes out and will sob uncontrollably. This aggravates hubby, I know. He cannot take seeing me undone. He much prefers that we just pretend nothing is wrong or has happened....we can talk about things for awhile, but let's not overdo it. I then accuse him of being unresponsive to my feelings and needs. I don't know. Maybe that is my co-dependent nature??? Maybe that is my need to be too involved??? Maybe males protect themselves by remaining closed up and thus, in our opinion, unmotivated. That doesn't always make my husband's actions attractive!!! In fact, often his behavior grates on my nerves until I find some way to provoke him into reactions. I am rambling, but I do identify with your, Gail.....certainly whether we have a active A, a sober A, or no A at all in our lives we expect SOMETHING from them. I believe that is called communication and thus a relationship. Is it even possible????
