The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Can you tell me, is it acceptable in the AA program for recovering Alcoholics to develop and maintain a close relationship to someone of the opposite sex and go to breakfast/lunch on occasion with them, go to the gym and workout with each other, call each other almost daily?
I admit I am a jealous person, but he has cheated on me in the past, so I have reason to be cautious. He also had cheated on his first wife untold number of times during his 15 years of marriage with her. So he definitely has the capacity to cheat.
My point to him is that he is putting himself in a situation that may lead to future infidelity. My other point is, he knows stuff like this hurts me, he knows I am a jealous person, so why does he continue to do it?
I am furious, (my fangs are showing) and scared, that he feels the need to have friendship relationships with other women. I have told him before to stop having lunch and chatting with, and hanging out with the AA single women in his group, but he continues to do so. In the past he has promised me that he wouldn't do it anymore, yet he continues. I just don't get it.
Do you know what his sponsor say if his sponsor knew he about this situation?
Is this acceptable in AA?
I'm tired of this cycle, but I really love him a lot. I don't understand why he keeps doing this, when he knows how hurt I am when I find out.
My husband says this woman has been the biggest help to him in his recovery and in his learning how to be better in his relationship with me. That she really works a good program. How good of a program is she really working if what she is doing is causing problems in our marriage?
She is single but supposedly has a boyfriend, yet my husband came home from a meeting a few months ago with a styrophome cup that she sketched a picture of my husband on and wrote "you can't caputure the cuteness of Big Dave on styrophome".
Can you please provide insight? Please feel free to tell me if I'm over-reacting.
I'm going to give you a couple of different viewpoints on this, one as a long-standing sober member of AA, and one as a long-standing member of Alanon.
There are valid reasons it's suggested that AA members get same sex sponsors, and they use those sponsors to guide them in sobriety.
It's also common for someone early in sobriety to 'switch addictions', usually to an unhealthy relationship. I am guilty of that myself, and eventually relapsed because I was pigheaded and would NOT listen to my sponsor. I've seen that happen far too many times in the 21 years I've been around the program of AA.
As an Alanon, I can tell you that you have no control over this and perhaps perhaps look at your boundaries, what you will/won't accept from him as far as behavior, and what will be your consequences if he steps over the line?
Having been married to an alcoholic/addict who was famous for infidelity prior to the marriage, and also through the marriage, my ultimate solution was to walk away for several reason, not the least of which was my own physical safety.
I managed to get myself involved in a series of unhealthy relationships after I divorced him, and had to hit an emotional bottom before I was willing to work through the steps as far as my codependency issues.
Today, I choose not to live with a man who is insensitive towards my feelings, continues to repeat the same bad behaviors over and over, and does not respect me.
Some folks can live with issues like that and still have some semblance of sanity and serenity through Alanon. I am not one of them.
I lived that way long enough, through enough relationships, that I have had my fill. I deserve better, and I am a-okay being without a man in my life and I have learned to nurture myself
Edited kuz eye kant spell LOL!
-- Edited by Tenderheartsks at 12:41, 2008-04-12
__________________
"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience." - Woodrow Wilson
AA recommends against close friendships across the sexes, especially in early sobriety. They also recommend against cross-gender sponsoring. The reasons are the obvious ones - vulnerable people, in an unstable state, can made some disastrous choices.
All I can do is tell you how it was for me.
I had had suspicions of my husband cheating during the drinking years, but only knew of one actual instance, that he told me about. We made some changes to the circumstances that led to it, and so far as I know for sure, that was it. However, as I say, I had the odd suspicion, over the years. His friendships always were better with women, he did not get along very well with men - it was a big part of his "issues". I know for sure that a lot of those friendships were perfectly innocent.
After he sobered up, he started going on sexy chat sites - the way I look at it, it was a substitute for drinking and drugging, not much different than the sugar craving most addicts have when they first sober up. I didn't like it, at all, and we fought about it quite a lot. He would swear he'd stop, and then a few months later I'd catch him at it again. We'd fight, again, and he swear he'd stop, again. Sound familiar? It was this repetition of drinking behaviour that made me realize that this was another addiction, and not really aimed at me.
He was also at this time heavily involved online with sponsoring a couple of women. I wasn't happy about this either, but he was pretty open about the relationships, and I decided to let it go. Eventually his work took him to the town of one of them (he would work there for two weeks, and then come home for a week). Again, I was not happy about this, but in so many other ways our lives were going pretty good. He obviously really was working his program and getting better, so I just decided to wait and see how it all worked out.
Then I found out that he was, in fact, cheating on me with yet another woman, that he had met through AA. I hit the roof, the marriage almost ended, and for the first time I started taking alanon and my own mental and spiritual health seriously. I started seeing a therapist and really worked on my end of things.
In this time, I came to some realizations. The most important was that this was the way he was - I was powerless over his behaviour. The only thing I had power over was how I reacted. I also realized that I was not willing to end the marriage. In so many other ways, we were very happy. So, I took a long hard look at what was important to me. I realized that I did not in fact really care all that much if he was faithful to me or not - what I cared about was how he treated me when he was with me. What hurt was 'coming upon' him on the chat sites, what hurt was him being home but not "being home" if you know what I mean. I set some boundaries, and made them clear to him, and they had all to do with how I expected to be treated, none of them were about what he did when he was not with me. And then, I let the issue go. I did not spend any more time worrying about what he was doing, and with whom, when he was out of town. I still do not have any idea if he became faithful or not, and I really don't care.
I know that not everybody will agree with this - for most people, infidelity is a deal breaker. All I can say is, for me it wasn't. Being treated disrespectfully in my own home, being treated as if I was of no value - those were the deal breakers. After I made my position clear to him, I did not ever again come upon any evidence of straying on his part.
He died last summer, and one of the women he had sponsored came to his funeral. We had a long talk, and she made it clear that she credits him with her sobriety. She thanked me, over and over, for not standing in the way of their friendship, because she knew how hard it had been for me. I do not believe that there was anything wrong in their relationship, actually - I believe it was the way they both presented it, a healthy AA sponsorship. So many people told me, at that time, how important he had been to their sobriety - about 3/4 of them were women.
So, there it is - your husband and this woman might be deeply involved in a healthy program or they might be heading to the nearest motel. It comes down to the old alanon question - he's gonna do what he's gonna do; what are YOU gonna do?
I know for a fact my AH is a dishonest person. Dishonest to others, dishonest to me.
At the same time, though, when I weigh the pros and cons, I still to this day cannot believe how well he and I get along with each other. Very truly, up until the beginning of this year, in the four years I'd known him up to January, we got along with each other fantastically. We would have occasional blow-ups at each other, but this wasn't like a daily, weekly, or even monthly thing. There were times we were so comfortable with each other that a serious disagreement wouldn't surface for months. And then when we did have a disagreement, we'd put forth honest effort to move past it.
But what I discovered about my AH in January became something that we could NOT solve overnight. It frustrated my AH, especially. He's "Mr. Ignore It And It'll Go Away". I could NOT ignore his emails and text messages with multiple men - yes, men - soliciting sex.
So, yeah. There's the whole weird thing about my relationship with my AH. I have no doubt now that he's bisexual, although he vehemently denies it. I know, too, that he will lie to cover his ass if he feels it's threatened in any way. And, to top it all off, he's an alcoholic, who denies he has a problem with drinking, too.
I don't know if he's bisexual because he just "grew up" that way and just "is", or if he's bisexual because perhaps he was sexually abused as a kid - he grew up in the Catholic religion among a huge family of alcoholics everywhere - ripe environment for sexual abuse.
But that's it. That's the facts I have to work with with my husband.
I still to this day, though, do NOT want a divorce. And it's because of all the other kind, sweet things I see in him that trump the bad.
Do I care what others think about me that I'm staying with someone who's a bisexual alcoholic who won't admit to either? 99% of the time, it's a great big, gigantic NO. Who are others to judge me? They're not my HP, and if they think I'm crazy, they should respectfully keep it to themselves and turn their focus back to controlling their own dang serenity.
There is 1% of me that cares what others think, and that's my family and close friends... but it's only because I know they care about me and love me. But even THEY know the whole story of my AH, and do they hate him and think I should get the hell out? Nope. They, too, recognize all the kind sweet traits of my AH and on their own terms have forgiven him. All they care about is that I'm happy, and they know only I can figure out what makes me happy.
So, you have some certain facts you know about your husband. Do you know how you honestly feel towards your husband? Do you think you could be happy if your AH is cheating with other women knowing his past? Only you can answer for yourself. Like Lin said, "he's gonna do what he's gonna do; what are YOU gonna do?"
No. That is the answer to your first question. Now, I will go back and read the rest of what you wrote....
I can't even respond to the rest of what you wrote as I am way too triggered. I am sorry. I now am going back to read the ESH of the others and maybe gather some for myself.
I hated just waiting for the other shoe to drop and then the other and then the other like there was no time I would ever accept the truth for what it was and how I was seeing it without chaos bringing me to a decision. Under those conditions it would usually not be a good decision and appear like I would wait for another shoe to drop.
You have all the evidence from the past. You have a clear picture of what is going on now (looks like, feels like, sounds like, taste like) and it is going on cause you have the evidence and you don't need more.
It would be nice if you were in program, had a sponsor and also the group with time and experience because that would make your thoughts and decisions making process easier and clearer and you would have more courage and experience in doing so. You didn't say that you had these things but what you had was a alcoholic that may be going to meetings and deciding to remain the same person only alcohol free. If you are the second or third go around for this person...he's got more experience doing what he is doing with all the justifications and manipulations and lies than you have dealing with it.
You can't call him to quit ...but... you can call your participation to a halt. We talk about setting boundaries for the alcoholic and we should talk about setting boundaries for ourselves. I did and it worked miraculously. When I said "I" quit and quit the problems I had dealing with my alcoholic and her infidelities started to go away. She did what she did and was doing what she was doing; I however refused to participate.
You can quit at any time and maybe this little bit from a former sponsor might help you with how you love. "Love cannot exist without some dimension of justice." It doesn't sound like that is what you are doing at the moment. What you're doing sounds one sided.
To me the answer to your question would be NO it is not okay for a man to develop close relationship with women that regard deep feelings-like AA relationships etc and vise vera.
I do discuss my feelings with my close alanon female friend when her husband is with us (riding to a meeting or over lunch as a group) and he does comment and give ESH and it is great to have a male perspective but I do not need the male perspective enough to seek it out from any man in a less "appropriate" way!! I am thankful to my friend that she doesn't have a problem with her husband "sharing" with me, grateful enough that I watch closely to avoid ANY thing that would overstep boundries, if she happens to step away and we are talking I mention how much I appreciate her husband input on ... whatever it was we were saying so she kinda knows what was going on. But I avoid even talking to him alone-so she doesn't ever wonder.
This is one of the most important parts of a relationship to me, it's not about jealousy as I feel as strongly about respecting my friends boundries as I would my own. It is about the respect I have for myself and others.
Others may feel differently, and that is okay as I'm not saying this is the only way to feel, only what I feel.
I know before I understood what I was dealing with I thought I was jealous, insecure etc. partly because that is what my A's controling mother told him about me and partly because of how it feels to live with someone who isn't open with you -- it's not a secure (safe) situation so it is normal to feel insecure!!or rather--off balance and like you not on solid ground.
But I thought about my life unrelated to him... had I ever been generally jealous in life or was I usually happy for others when things went well for them? Was I jealous of other women or did I like to meet and know successful happy attractive people, women or me? The answer was yes I do like and generally trust people.
Was I insecure or had I successfully started 2 businesses, enjoyed public speaking and liked meeting new (healthy) people and wasn't I the one who feels she can talk to just about anyone??? Open excited about life? Yep figured out that I am actually pretty secure and not jealous at all... Interestingly enough his mother is very jealous of others belongings or success and is too insecure to ask the doctor questions when a family member is sick...and she's always always worried about what bad is going to happen....pretty insecure..
So my point if you are insecure or jealous, okay, but maybe your not... does it show up in any other area of your life? Or is this an untrue statement about you?
Glad, what useful questions to ask. This is a good way to help us separate the truth from the lies, and you know that if there are A's in your life, there will be lies.
Oh my goodness, the things you said about yourself, it's as if you were me... successful in business, a giver to my community, a total people person. I am generally a happy, helpful person and feel that I'm attractive enough and self confident. As a single mom for several years I was always able to take care of me and my kids, so financially I don't need him.
There are no other areas in my life where jealously comes into play. None. You know I did research about Jealousy in my public speaking class a few years ago, and I concluded that I wasn't Jealous of the woman my husband was giving free bjs to, and that he readily accepted them. But that I felt disrespected, hurt and furious that he felt the need to do continue this relationship, especially when he would get these from me as part of our love-making almost every day!
My A insists whenever we had/have a blow-up on this subject though, that it IS jealousy, so after fighting it for so long I just agreed to call my reaction to these incidents as jealousy. So my question to him always is, "So if you know I'm a jealous person, why do you keep inviting and encouraging these women and incidents to happen? You know it hurts me, then why do it? And I would never think of having a close friendship with a single or marred man, especially one who "thinks I'm cute", and going to lunch and the gym with him. I would never do that to my husband or another man's wife.
Thank you for confirming to me that it is not jealousy that I exhibit. But a natural reaction of hurt and anger when he repeats this behavior. And that I'm allowed to feel that way. Now I need to decide if I'm willing to accept this, because I know it won't change. As much as I love him, I can't keep allowing him to do this to me. The feelings I have inside when this happen are so ugly, and the thoughts I have .... they are ugly, and I hate having them.
Jerry, I have attended a few Al-Anon meetings and they are awesome. I hadn't had the opportunity though to find get to know anyone well enough, and couldn't find my groups' phone numbers this morning. I'm so grateful I found all of you though, and appreciate you all for taking the time to help me today.
It's funny though. I kicked him out about 15 months ago, and he moved back home in January, after vowing his undying love, promising me he would stop doing having these women friends, stop watching porn, help out around the house, stop nagging, etc. And said if he tried really hard, and I worked an Al-Anon program we would be able to make it.
The only thing he's really done is stopped nagging as much. Al-Anon has helped me realize that although I despise it, I could accept him watching porn as long as it wasn't around me. I could accept him not helping out around the house. But I can never accept him having these women friends. Did he realize that by encouraging me to work the Al-Anon program, it would help me find the strength to "quit participating"?
I was thinking I would tell him ... it's either her or me. He can't have both. I'm prepared for the consequences if he chooses her. However, I'm not sure if I'm prepared for the consquences if he chooses me. I know he'll do it again with either her or someone else. Can I continue to accept and ride this rollercoaster? If it were just me, it would be a no-brainer. Although we've only been together for four years, my three children really love him. That's the toughie.
I called the lady he was eating out with and going to the gym with. I left her a message asking her if she knew that one of the conditions of my A coming back home was that he promise not to put himself in one-on-one situations with any women, specifically with her, and the other AA single women. And, even if she didn't know that, why she thought it would be okay to go to lunch/dinner/work-out, whatever, with my husband, or any other woman's husband for that matter. ESPECIALLY knowing, through my A's sharing at meetings, his past behaviour pattern with other women, his weakness in this area, and my trust issues with him.
She called me back, saying she hadn't known that, and sincerely apologized, that there were no intentions meant by it, etc. etc. (It sounded sincere, and I will believe it to be the truth as long as she does not do it again.)
Also, he came home after work and an AA meeting last night. He told me that a few of the women invited him to go out and get something to eat after the meeting, but that he told him no thanks, he had to get home.
I had very similar issues with the A I was involved with. I felt absolutely left out from his life. His friends, his family, his whatever was always more important than me. I would remonstrate and remonstrate with him. He would respond occasionally. I devoted huge amounts of time and energy to it.
I think now where I was caught was this was a replay of my childhood. My two sisters are close. They have similar issues, (they also like to drink and are both alcoholics). I felt absolutely totally left out and abandoned by them. So when I met a man who did the same thing I was caught in a black hole. Often when we are really caught and deeply emotional about something it can mean that it is a replay of some childhood issue. I don't mean to trivialize or minimize it in any way, just a suggestion. For me my childhood is a black hole I can trip down anytime.
I work super hard on being around people who value me, care for me and want to communicate with me. The A didn't. He had plenty of chance to. He chose not to.
i am going thru the same thing right now the both just got otu of rehab together and constantly talk to eachother uhhh that pisses me off im glad in not the only feely jelous thanx for posting
My husband talked with his sponsor for quite a long time, and his sponsor (bless him) told my husband that, yes, AA discourages its members to build close relationships with members of the opposite sex, that it is inappropriate for a married man to be seeing other women 1 on 1, no matter how innocent, and that through his previous actions (affairs, etc) HE has created this "monster" in me. Sponsor told him if you love her, and want to keep her, you must stop this behavior.
After that we had a long talk, he has agreed to stop, and we are doing well so far. One day at a time.
