The material presented
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to exchange
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I heard back from the A and we had a very long phone conversation last night. He seemed depressed. He didn't bring up anything about being depressed, but he just seemed so different. Melancholy. Serious. Worried. Stressed. Not his usual self at all. He told me he was scared about his upcoming surgery. Fears are a big part of his disease. Said his doc had had doubled his anti-depressant meds. So I don't know if it was the meds making him seem different or simply the worry of it all. I didn't really go there with him. I told him that I thought he sounded unhappy. He told me he wasn't unhappy - just worried. At one point I even asked him if he was ready to get off the phone - if he was tired of talking to me. He told me definitely not.....so we continued to talk.
He wants to move here. Soon after his surgery. I told him I had concerns. We talked about those. I told him that he's left me so many times before, and that while I'd like him here, I'm very scared. He acknowledged all of my concerns. He lent no emotion to the conversation. He gave no promises of anything. I was left feeling like this was just part of a man. Part of the man that I once knew SO well - who used to be my very best friend.
Where he used to have feeling, he now has empty spaces. I don't think his disease will allow him to FEEL things anymore. Emotions have gotten notably hard for him. And he gets slightly defensive if you question his emotion. He said, "You know how I feel about you. I've told you. I'm not going to tell you a bunch of lovey dovey stuff and have you think I'm manipulating you." (huh?) I mean, part of me thinks that a real noble statement....and the rest of me thinks that's an easy way out of having to feel anything. I'm left confused.
A couple of things I know for sure. He is looking for A place to stay after he has surgery. Moving to another continent seems like a lot of trouble (and cost) if he's only coming to use me. Having said that......he figures there is little he has to do to convince me to take him back. And love him. Kind of a sweet deal if you ask me.
I also know that he doesn't have this overabundance of feelings. Can I live day in day out with a man who not only has a disease that is only loosely managed, but who also may or may not be willing/capable of having/showing any real emotions toward me? I mean, he is still very gentle and kind - but just no emotion.
At one point in the conversation, there was a lull - and he asked me if I was still there. I told him, "I am still here..............and I wish you were here." He responded, "I wish I were there too. I really do." That was the most emotion I got from him in 3 hours.
My gut is telling me that having him here would be chaotic. I even told him at one point that my life is very calm these days. That I like the calm and knowing (for the most part) what is going to happen each day. I like the lack of stress in my life and living very simply. I enjoy that. After I told him all of that, he responded, "Well nevermind then." As if I were telling him that as a way of telling him I didn't want him here. That wasn't my point. I guess I was hoping that he would tell me that he desired the same thing. Wishful thinking.
I've done a lot of thinking and praying today (and this past week - and this past couple of years!). I know that I don't have to make a decision today. And I know I don't have to make a decision tomorrow. And if he needs to know something in a set period of time, then he might have to continue down his list of people to ask. I won't be manipulated, or guilted into making a fast decision. I'm SO grateful for this program. I'm actually learning to THINK. My heart and my head are at a true standoff right now. I need my head to win this one. But how do you turn your back on someone you love? Surely I need to reach the point where I don't see it as "turning my back" on him - but what I see is a very ill man - physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. It's very tough to watch someone who used to be so whole, become like this. And it's even tougher to wish them luck and walk away. If he hadn't been such a vital part of my life for so long, then maybe it would be somewhat easier (?), but he's played a part in so many of the chapters of my life.
I'll continue praying and sorting my crazy head out. As always, thanks for letting me vent.
I have an image of you, searching the shelves of that hardware store, looking for bread. You find a crumb here and a crumb there, and get your hopes up - "There's a loaf here somewhere, I just know it".
If nothing has changed, then the past is a pretty good predictor of the future. What you are getting is what you are going to get.
Alcoholism is a progressive disease; it is also very illogical. There is no way to predict how things will go. Our hearts yearn for the person that we knew from the past; our minds will that person to return.
I comfort myself by telling myself that my past with my A-bf is only in my imagination now. It is not reality; only memory. I don't know exactly when I lost the man that I knew because it was so insidious. But he, like yours, was (is) void of any emotion... there is nothing there anymore. It's like he is a shell.
Only in hindsight can I see that it has gotten worse over the last 1.5 years. I haven't seen or heard from him for 7-weeks now (isn't that something how we keep track of the time?). For now, I am relieved... but it has been an emotional roller coaster for me.
We spent about 1/3 of our lives together. But I now tell myself, "I lived 2/3 of my life without him, I can live 30 more years without him!"
Thanks for your post... it helped me to be glad that my alcoholic is gone now. I'm loving the "calm and simple" part.
I have an image of you, searching the shelves of that hardware store, looking for bread. You find a crumb here and a crumb there, and get your hopes up - "There's a loaf here somewhere, I just know it".
If nothing has changed, then the past is a pretty good predictor of the future. What you are getting is what you are going to get.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I remember very well those conversations with the then AH over the phone. I was always trying to read into what he did/didn't say. My mind was going 90 miles an hour, picking apart and analyzing every word. I'd say something in hopes he'd say something in turn that I wanted to hear.
I am so grateful that I don't have to live like that anymore.
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"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience." - Woodrow Wilson
It's okay to be confused. Answers come when are ready to receive them. If your gut is telling you not to have him come here, than I would trust that. I have been reminded by so many members here to trust your gut. Just because you don't want him here, doesn't mean that you don't love and care for the man. I remember several years ago when I asked AH to leave. It wasn't because I stopped caring for him. It was because I couldn't handle the chaos anymore. I had to take care of me first. I had to work on my recovery, otherwise I was going to get so lost in his disease that I might not come out of it. Do what is best for you. Sometimes the head and the heart are going to differ. That's when you listen to your gut. Keep working your program. The answers will come. Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I think when he said well nevermind then I would have taken that as a sign that he intends to bring that chaos you were describing...
Someone once told me that if a man tells you that you're too good for him to BELIEVE him!
Seems along the same line to me. I wouldn't play into that game at all. If you said I am so happy with my life peaceful and non chaotic and he said well nevermind then... I would seriously think about that.
I can't say enough how important following and trusting my gut have been for my recovery. I was trained to question myself by years of living in insanity! It takes a long time to get to the point of I"M OK and I trust myself!
Have you learned when your feelings are coming from your gut or your mind yet?
That's something I need to learn and tune into myself. My gut feelings.
A's make it difficult to listen to your gut because of the manipulation game they play to get what they want from you. They know how to blur the line between what your gut is telling you and what your co-dependent emotions are telling you. They keep talking to you, or giving you the cold shoulder, or playing with your emotions until they've found the right crack to slip in through.
I'd listen to his frustration. He sounds as though he gets frustrated when you want genuine emotion from him. Oooh how exasperating it is that you ask him to actually share his EMOTIONS.
That is something I get from reading your posts that you want from him. Open, honest sharing of his emotions. But he's never done so in the past, and there's no guarantee he'll ever do it in the future.
Like debilyn said, too - "he will have a medical relapse".
That sounds like a guarantee to me. I think ANYONE who's been put under, cut open, and sewed back together experiences pain and with pain comes frustration, irritability, irrationality. lashing out. And I'm saying even the BEST of us do that after surgery.
So imagine that coming from an A who's on a shaky recovery - if one at all.
Can you handle being around that?
There's nothing wrong with wishing the best for him but not getting tangled in his recovery (from surgery or his addiction). He has every right to move where ever he feels necessary for his recovery, but why oh WHY does it HAVE to be with you?
HE knows your past together, too. He knows all the frustration that mounted from it, the disagreements you've both had. It was enough for him to pack up and leave - several times. So HE should know better, too.
He's in trouble. He wants help. He's too afraid to ask for help from people who will give him tough answers, tough love. He wants someone he's comfortable with to help him. Someone who'll just make it easy for him to not have to face his demons. You're that person. You're that guarantee for him. And that's why he's searching your armor for cracks. Pick, pick, pick. He'll wear it down sometime. He's managed it before.
I hope I'm not out of line with all I've said. I sometimes feel like the pot calling the kettle black considering my own situation. But I haven't left my AH or he hasn't ever left me (oops, except for that time when he tried to kill himself!). And my AH and I don't have that kind of past with each other. We were with each other and have been all the way up to his downfall - and mine.
All I can say is if I ended things with my AH, that would be it. It would be DONE. I wouldn't want to try it again. I deserve better if that's the case.
Keep on opening up your communications to with your HP.
my two cents says that if he was really seriously working a program and working some steps and was seriously interested in connecting with you in a genuine and long-term way he would not be asking to land on your doorstep immediately!!! He would move within the area where you live and take care of himself for the time being, slowly build trust, begin dialogue, etc. and see where that takes you two.
Its too much, too fast. Its unreasonable, in my opinion. And anyone who is threatened by your happiness and serenity is another BIG red flag.
I believe in you 100%. Whatever you decide is good with me, love ya through it all either way, u know. Hugs, J.
Thank you ALL for you wonderful input. Little by little, all of the words I read here are getting through. They really are. The thing is, I KNOW all of this stuff to be absolutely real and true, but I keep throwing the "BUT" word in there. That's what I have to move past. That's what I'm working on.
As far as the emotional distance that I keep referring to with my A....this is something new for him. We were together in high school/college and he was very available. We broke up because he needed more freedom to discover the world of alcohol.
We got back together 14 years ago and stayed together for 3 years. We broke off our engagement because the drinking became completely out of control. "Unmanageable" just doesn't begin to describe it. When I backed off - he immediately moved in with another woman. (He knows how to get what he needs. He's a goooooood manipulator.) What's hard for me to get past is the fact that even during the worst of times - we remained close. We were friends. (up until the day he moved in with the other woman!) The bust-up of the friendship was particularly hard for me.
So when we re-connected a couple of years ago - I was pleased that I might be able to re-establish that friendship. And we kinda sorta did. But that's when I started noticing a real hollowness to his emotions. And not just with me. I heard about other friendships in his life. Wow - the lack of depth just saddened me. Once we moved further than a friendship and started talking about possibly getting back together, I just assumed the level of intimacy would increase. But it really didn't that much. Any intimacies he shared with me seemed very forced and hard for him. It left me feeling empty. And yes.....I did find crumbs on the shelves of the hardware store.....but I JUST KNOW that they used to sell bread. I remember it! Surely if I look hard enough or wait long enough - the bread man will come back with a fresh delivery, right?!?!?!
So I think that's part of this craziness that I'm going through. I wanted what I used to know -MINUS THE ADDICTION, thank you. Yeh, and I know people in hell want icewater.
Again - thank you to everyone for sharing your ESH with me. It helps me see that I'm not going through this alone. That in some ways, this is standard fare when dealing with an A. I will get through this. I feel it. I'm getting to a good place. I will continue to work at this and turn this over to HP (sometimes every hour). I'm very grateful for this board.
