I know this is going to sound horrible. - Al-Anon Family Group

carolinagirl · ~*Service Worker*~

I know this is going to sound horrible.

ESH · Senior Member

I'm sorry to hear that you are going through such a rough time with the 8-year-old. You certainly do have your hands full. Can you take her for a psychiatric evaluation with a pediatric psychiatrist (MD, that is!).

It sounds like she has some of the symptoms of ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). Here is a website with more information about it:

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_oppositional_defiant_disorder

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

Sounds like classic middle-child behavior to me.

I can't speak from experience, though, so maybe I'm not one to talk at all.

I've just grown up with friends and watched friends of friends who were middle children and they tend to grow up not knowing much about themselves. They're not the "mature, responsible one", and nor are they the little baby who gets doted upon. A lot of them tend to feel overlooked.

Of course, I'm sure your middle is acting out due to the stress going on in her life and that she sees going on in your life and your AH's life. Doesn't know how to properly express herself.

I hope you can get her some help - counseling, perhaps. Do you live in the country or near any farms or anything like that? There's GOT to be some place where you could get her into a position to work with animals since she just loves them so much. If there's something that brings her joy, definitely focus on it, and maybe try to utilize that joy to help her heal and deal with her issues.

In any case, teenagers act out. It's just what they do. Some much more severely than others, but through all of this, she's going through hormone changes, PLUS trying to establish her individuality -- all during this turmoil that's going on between you and her AF.

I only assume the things I've said by thinking back to when I was a teenager. (I still feel like one half the time, too!) But I remember going through periods of just HATING my parents even though they did nothing wrong. It was hormones, and my trying to figure out who I was as an individual. I stole from them, did destructive things, threw tantrums, misbehaved, dressed weird (died my hair blue once!)... the whole nine yards.

Maybe think back to when you were a teen and remember what life was like for you and why you may have behaved in weird ways when you were that age?

My best to you and your middle child, though. Hope you both find some serenity.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

PS - Alateen! Maybe try to get her to some Alateen meetings.

serendipity · ~*Service Worker*~

Jeeze, I don't think that sounds awful at all. I haven't like my kids at points also. I am an only child so I don't even get the whole "having siblings" thing anyway. I probably parent them all as if they were only children. My ex MIL was an only child also and then had 7 kids from 3 different abusive men and wound up being a single-ish parent. She was always so concerned with everything being "fair" amongst the kids and it caused ALOT of problems. I heard once before I even had #2 that parents do not love their kids equally at all times. They love the one who needs it the most at that time. And through out life it all equals out. So, take this opportunity while the littlest one is being sweet and loving and the older one is being somewhat understanding to focus all of your time and attention on the middle one (whom I call the Center one...LOL). She is the squeeky wheel who needs attention so give it to her.

Jean4444 · ~*Service Worker*~

I have no kids so I am going to stay out of this one! But here are some hugs, J.

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

I have no children and I know given my background I would have struggled greatly to be a parent.

Is there a parents without partners group in your area.

The issue is resources and I know what it is to get them.

I am starting therapy myself on Monday and can't wait to have some help with lots of issues.

I would be suprized if your children did not have issues. They have been through a lot.

I think you are doing fantastically given all you have to deal with.

Be kind to yourself, Be kind to her.

I wish I could send you some Advantage for the kitty cat fleas.

Maresie.

carolinagirl · ~*Service Worker*~

LOL That and the $850 pet deposit LOL There is no alateen, big brothers, big sisters, foster grandparents, parents without partners or ANYTHING else here. I have checked into it all. I am contemplating trying to START a foster grandparent program just because there are so many seniors here from NY, NJ and other places with family far away and I know my kids can't be the only needy ones with no one but mom!

I was ALSO an only child and don't get the whole sibling thing either. I just hope they end up friends somday!

Glad I am not alone in disliking a child, I just feel that I dislike her more often than not and it bothers me.

-- Edited by carolinagirl at 15:30, 2008-03-14

-- Edited by carolinagirl at 15:30, 2008-03-14

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

I DO have kids, and even though I ought to stay out of this one myself, I have a couple of comments.

First, understand, I am old!!! Old enough to have reared my kids in the times when a parent could haul off and whack one who was misbehaving. We didn't have a three-letter acronym for everything they did wrong. We didn't find excuses, nor did we blame everyone and everything else for what the kid did wrong. We landed a good one on their behinds!! The only harm that ever caused was to injure their pride and take them down a few rungs on the ladder. It didn't have to happen too many times; they understood very quickly; they got the message and they responded with acceptable behavior. We loved them unconditionally, and they knew that. Anyone who will tell you that spanking a child is wrong is full of it!!! Understand I am not talking about rendering them bruised and battered. Now, today we have kids totally out of control. Parents don't know which way to turn. If you slap one of them, they call the police and CPS and are taken away until you can prove your worthiness as a parent. Parents' rights to rear their children are a thing of the past, and the kids know it. We cannot call it what it is anymore...bratty behavior. It is either this, or that, or a chemical imbalance or something caused by something or someone else. God forbid they should be taken to task for disrespect. My kid curse at me? Not the second time!! Mine never did it the first time because they knew the boundaries and the consequences of their actions.

I cannot imagine an 8 year old wearing inappropriate clothes to school. An 8 year old wears what the parent tells him/her to wear to school.

CG, I am not saying you are a bad parent. In fact, I believe you to be a loving, concerned parent who worries about her kids, and wants the best for them. I think you sincerely want to help them. I just feel sorry for you because kids have parents over the proverbial barrel. Parenting is like trying to stay above water with your hands and feet tied together. It just cannot be done once a kid gets the upper hand.

All I can offer you, except this tirade, are my prayers and positive thoughts. I am thankful I am not a young mother wondering which way to turn with my children.

By the way, I do not think lying, stealing, cheating, cursing, watching porn, hitting, and disrespecting teachers and parents are typical behavior of an 8 year old. These are the kids who end up on the Maury show at age 13 with a baby of their own and no "baby daddy" to help out with the expenses.

I don't know the answers. When my children were young, I would have taken anyone's child to raise. I love children; especially teenagers, and I had a way of getting the best out of them. I doubt I could do that now. One of them calling me a bitch or a "ho" like I hear so often that they do, would have to peel himself off the wall, and go searching for his teeth.

You who are reading this may be thinking, "Oh! What an awful person that Diva is." May be.

Shaking my head and feeling great sympathy,

Diva

-- Edited by Diva at 16:43, 2008-03-14

ESH · Senior Member

The old, wise one has spoken -- send your 8-year-old to Diva!

debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

http://www.focusas.com/ConductDisorders.html

If your little girl was in my classroom, I would definitely have seen her as having
a conduct disorder.
She would be in a classroom with other kids who are at risk.

The sooner you get a handle on it the better. They learn differently. Nothing wrong with that.

I had one special little guy, he sounds so much like yours. That boy would lay down in the farrowing pen of my pot bellied pig for hours. He was so tender to the piglets and momma.

He loved animals too.Not all with this disorder abuse animals.

Animals to them are safe.

This is NOT normal whatever normal is, behavior. She should have NEVER been sent to Sat. School or held after. This will only make it worse. She needs specific care and her education curriculum needs to be developed to fit her particular needs.

You request to the school that she be tested. Your school under USA law HAS to do it. If they don't they can and will be sued.

If they give you back talk, say the word attorney. Remember I did Sp.Ed for 18 years.

She needs to be on an I.E.P. as soon as humanly possible. Individualized Educational Program. Once she is on that,they have to provide everything she needs to be educated.

I am horrified how this school she is in is allowing her to fall thru the cracks like this...rrrrrrr

Don't blame you at all!!!

She needs routine,routine, routine. VERY clear boundaries. Very clear consequenses that SHE helps to set up.

Honey it is not you do not like your child, you love her, but dislike her behavior. two completely different things.

ESH is totally correct.A counselor unless one who specializes in mental illness in children will not be much use, accept to direct you.

These are the kids parents send to horse ranches, or other serious theraputic rehabs.

LOTS of hugs. love,debilyn

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

(((CG)))

I too think it may be a good idea to have your daughter tested. I sit on both sides of the fence having raised my older daughters, my son that came along 15 yrs later, then having a ODD grandchild live with me along with his Mother for 10 mo.

The actions you describe sound very familiar. My G-son, at the ripe old age of 12 was doing time in a boys home, ordered by the court system. Previous to that his mother (my daughter) had been ordered to stay with him 24/7, this meant she couldn't work.
She had to quit her job, be on welfare and struggle. She homeschooled the G-son since he'd been kicked out of school, took him to therapists, had in home counceling, psychiatric treatment, meds, etc.
Without going in to all of the particulars, G-son got out of boys home and everyone lived here for a while. He has no inner understanding that the world doesn't owe him. He is not a product of "this generation". If he needed a swat on the butt he got it (btw, that's not illegal). In his mind, he doesn't care who you are, adult or not....If he feels you are disrespecting him or are unfair, you are going to get it right back. This includes calling me, his teachers or anyone else a b*tch or whatever. They could not move out of here fast enough!! I had the police hear 3x as a result of him living here, as opposed to once in 15 yrs when my sons band was practicing in the garage. I tried with the love of a Grandmother to get through to him...no way.

My husband was recently home for a visit and G-son asked if he could come and see him. We said of course. I discovered the next morning there was 100.00 missing from my purse.
My daughter did a search of his room and even though she found it tucked in a book in his closet, he denied taking it. He said he owed it to a drug dealer and now she was going to get him killed.
Since then he called a teacher a racist b*tch (even though she is black), walked outside the school and lit a cigarette and walked away. He goes to an alternative school because of his actions. He does things like ask to go to a friends house after school then not show up again until after midnight on a school night. He gets grounded , has his playstation etc. taken away for a couple weeks , gets ungrounded and pulls some other crap immediately. There is no remorse, no understanding on his part. In his mind he does what he wants, when he wants and screw anyone that gets in his way. That includes all authority figures.
I watched this one come in to the world, babysat for him often, treated him the same as I did my own children along with the same discipline and love. There was a difference in him early on. I recall one time I gave him a time out along with a swat on the butt at the age of 3 or 4, I knelt down in front of him to tell him why he was getting a time out and he spit in my face. I took a big breath and said "now you will sit there even longer" and he did it again. Punishment has no affect on him, ever. He WILL get you back for it. You wouldn't believe the list of things he's done, including selling or trading a 1/2 carrot diamond ring I had given my daughter... for drugs.
He does have ODD, along with Lord knows what else. We have tried everything we know of as a family to get him help. Now, he is in a drug rehab facility, placed there by his probation officer after he walked out of school. I don't expect it to do him any good at all, considering he was in a juvenile home for 5 mo last yr. with no result. He has been in various psychiatric hosp for eval. They've come up with ODD, ADHD, ADD and even bi-polar, depending on who diagnoses. Very frustrating.
After the $100.00 incedent all I could do is tell him he is not welcome here. I hated to say it but I have to, he can't be trusted.
Sorry this is so long, but there are kids that need medical, psychiatric attention and discipline has no meaning but is something to retaliate against. Getting the correct diagnosis is difficult but my daughter continues to try.

Christy

Tuggboat · Senior Member

My first thought is that this sounds like alcoholism without the drink. I once watched my nephew act like this and wondered if this child was alcoholic or that alcoholics were children?

Tuggboat · Senior Member

I have to double post. Cg asked two questions. One was how do you parent and the other was how do you find the good?

I think its funny. Well how do you think we should find the good and we answered: by calling her names, beating her, dumping her in others laps etc all in attempt to control her. There are a bunch of good caring directions, I liked em all so far especially the sound thrashing one but none of us have looked at that second question.

How do we love those that are hard to love? its like the forgiveness question. Maybe part of the answer is to forgive her but I think it could be a good topic. How do we find the good. Do we have to change people before we can love them or appreciate them?

Jen · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't know what to say, CG. I sure know how you feel. I have looked at my 7 yo son with sadness and fear a lot lately wondering if there is just something wrong with me. I fear not loving him, but I know I do. It's just hard to find it sometimes when they are so out of control. I have seen a lot of the same behavior though not to the extreme that you describe. I think that they get into a habit of screaming for attention like this. They are so unhappy it breaks my heart. I really think Serendipity hit the nail on the head. She is the sqeaky wheel and is demanding your attention the most right now.

I also give much respect to Diva's experience. Discipline is so severely lacking these days for most kids. And so is unconditional love. Your daughter needs you to show her that you love her no matter what and that she can't push you away. She sounds like a lot of kids caught in this disease that feel like it is not safe to love or be loved. She may be just pushing everyone away out of a sense of self preservation. Have you read any books about children of alcoholics? My AH and I are reading Adult Children of Alcoholics right now, and it is an eye opener. Anyway it is a suggestion.

Don't beat yourself up. You didn't cause this. She is affected by this disease, too. You are doing the best you can. One Day At A Time you will figure it out.

In recovery,

Peggy7 · ~*Service Worker*~

Her problems are requiring professional help. It is my observation that these serious issues are not being addressed at home. As others have said here in their replies, none of those behaviors are healthy for you or the rest of the family. My personal opinion would be to send her to a place for troubled children. You will still be able to visit her, and it will only be temporary until the professionals feel she is making progress. Eight year old children do not look at porn for no reason, these are red flags that she's been abused. You made your point clear that the teachers seem to have given up on her. Call Boys Town they have facilities for girls as well, they may also be able to recommend a place closer to your home. She requires immediate in patient professional attention as soon as possible.

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