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"To forgive the unrepentant is like drawing pictures in a pond" (thanks Jennifer)
He is sick, the reason I put up with it, danced a dance to try to fix it, turned myself inside out worrying about it, embarrassed myself over and over begging for it to be different was/ is because I "caught" the illness and I was sick too. Now I'm getting better.(this may be where this post should stop). I still think about things some though-wasteing time I know however:
There has been so much said about how forgiveness is for the one giving it not the offender in regards to not harboring resentment and I get that. But what is the word for forgiving yet finally saying enough-I deserve better. Is it forgive with detachment. I guess so. I really like the quote, I think with regards to my A and the way he never admits a wrong small or large. My view of resolving differences is
Person A says how they feel Person B says how they feel Both agree they don't want the other to feel bad ie explain any misunderstanding or admit any failings and say why it can be reasonably expected not to happen again. Any "ammends" that need to be made are (such as repairing the hole in the wall where is fist went or telling the people lied to the truth etc) Peson A and Person B Hug and do their best to forget it and move on.
I have actually doubted my being reasonable in wanting this. Do other people's A's have difficulting resolving differences ie don't know how to sincerely apologize too or is it different for each person. My guy's whole family lives with resentment and I haven't seen any of them resolve conflict, even a little so it is about him not me. He will DO things to act different or show me a sense of remorse but the world would stop spinning before he would discuss it.
I wonder if anyone else experiences this and to a certain extent it's a "guy" thing too? I realize I was trying to control him by trying to discuss things over and over and over and I realize even a sober healthy guy would have some issue being "called on the carpet" but I don't know which things a sober healthy person would have just automatically resolved and what I am being unreasonable about.
You're welcome for the quote, I got it off of a game site of all places! I like this quote because it, for me, applies to everyone in my life, not just the A's. I saw it one day when I was having to deal the the ex-h and his wanting to see our daughter after almost 4 years of no contact. I found that it applies to everyone in my life.
I think your view of resolving differences is great. And most of us see it that way too. And that would probably work if we lived in Perfect (like it says on the walgreens commercials) but we don't live anywhere near Perfect, do we? Unfortunately, our issues can't be resolved at a friendly neighborhood 24/7 store, can they? nope. So we have to figure out how to forgive the unrepentent not for them, but for ourselves. For our own psyche/soul/karma/whatever. The wrongs my A has done in the past almost year we've been together, I have forgiven. Not because he is "sorry" or because he's sick, but because it's what's best for me. That is something I've learned long before coming into this program. My mother harbor's resentments for our entire family because of how they do or don't do. I have to constantly remide her that they will have to account for everything they've done when thier time comes. And so will I. And so will she.
To forgive the unrepentant is like drawing pictures in a pond....it's useless, for them, not for us. I can't say that I've completely forgiven my ex-h for the things he did to me when we were married and I'll never forget. Because it makes me cautious when it comes to our daughter. He's a manipulator, and he doesn't even drink!!! He's just an I work everyday on forgiving him a little, for me, not him. I personally don't care what happens to him in the Ever After. He has never and probably will never admit or apologize for the things he did to me. I don't think that part has anything to do with Aism. I think it may have to do with the testosterone (no offence to the men here ) and the "pride" they think they have that they would have to swallow inorder to admit they were wrong about something. Good luck getting THAT! be it a "normal" sober person or an A. My A admits when he's wrong, sometimes. It's usually after a HUGE fight. I leave for whatever I have to leave for and I'm pretty sure he talks to his sponsor because when I get home his entire attitude has changed and he apologizes. I am of course floored. But I've already forgiven him before I've come home. Unfortunately for me, I'm a hopeless romantic and firmly believe in the "Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not boastful or conceited, it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances. Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth. It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes. As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love." Yes perhaps it's not the "best" way to live, especially living and loving an A, but believing that and trying my hardest to live by that has brought me to him and he inturn brought me to the program. (of course, being the hopeless romantic and believing and searching for this has caused me to be hurt many many many many times.)
I have sat looking at your post and pondering what I felt uncomfortable with for some hours this morning, and again this afternoon I found myself rereading and reading the responses that you have received here for the last two hours. I read your post early today and I had to come back to it.
I just cannot get my head around "To forgive the unrepentant is like drawing pictures in a pond", and have to totally disagree with that. Just because I forgive someone, it does not mean that I should expect anything else to happen. I choose to forgive, I forgive and that is that. What the unrepentant does has nothing to do with my act of forgiveness.
In my opinion, and please remember it is only my opinion, if it were like that, then the world is in a hopeless state, and I cannot accept that. There are acts of forgiveness everyday, and if the person that has done the thing that someone has had to forgive them for does nothing that is the unrepentant's choice.
The act of forgiveness is a personal decision and does not involve any action from the person who is being forgiven. The person doing the forgiving is the only one DOING anything. If the person doing the forgiving feels that in forgiving someone they might as well be drawing pictures in a pond then it is useless in them doing that because the act of forgiving is a complete action in and of itself.
When one decides to forgive it is a heart/head decision. The head says the words, and the heart feels the emotion. And what's more I believe that it is only the forgiver that does anything. It is not a proactive thing, however, if the forgiven person knows they have been forgiven then it is up to that person to act or react according to their own conscience, it is not an obligation for them to do or say anything further. The act of being forgiven does not require an act in return.
If then one looks at the act of forgiving as being one that requires some sort of response back such as 'I am sorry' from the person who has been forgiven then one has not understood that forgiveness is a complete action.
For example if I offend you in writing this and you say to me "I forgive you for offending me." , I do not need to respond. I do not owe you an apology in return. However, being the person I am I would say, "Please accept my apology, I meant no offense in the first place."
Please forgive me, I mean no offense to anyone here, I am simply pointing out my understanding of forgiveness, and welcome others to put me right if I am wrong.
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"The highest form of wisdom is kindness." The Talmund
I often struggled with forgiving the unrepentant. And I don't mean repentant, as in "Get on your knees and grovel." I mean - feeling remorse in a natural HUMAN way for the wrongs we inflict on others. Because if we inflict a hurt on someone and feel NOTHING...then I look at that as kind of socio or even psychopathic personality. Doesn't have to do with my belief system - it just has to do with sharing this planet with one another.
That being said....I've come to a new place on this topic. I HAVE and DO forgive the unrepentant for my own sake. Call it Christianity or Karma....but I do believe what goes around comes around and we have to forgive others in order for us to be forgiven. It's a "paying it forward" kind of movement. How could I possibly ask someone to forgive me for a wrong if I'm too bull-headed to forgive someone who wronged me? That just doesn't work in my world. Whether that person is sorry or not - I must commit the act of releasing that violation from me. Do I have to forget and let them inflict hurt on me over and over? No way. I can forgive and decide to disengage them from my life if that's what I choose. But if I'm holding onto the hurt, then I'm holding onto that person. For me, there's no way around that truth.
I'm releasing my forgiveness towards a family member tonight - by making a phone call that I hope will be accepted in a positive way. I had a conversation with my HP earlier today. Told my HP that my life is truly unmanageable right now. The answer simply came to me (almost in a physical sense....it was weird) "First things first. Tell your father that you love him - and that's the beginning towards working through the rest of things." The act of telling my dad that I love him - is my way of letting go of some past hurts. It will be a VERY hard call to make - but one I must do. For me. Releasing hurt. Forgiveness. It's powerful.
I hope that goes well. I've got so much else on my plate tonight. That conversation with my A last night. And other things, as well. I'm processing, processing, processing right now. But first things first. I'm off to make that FORGIVENESS phone call to my dad.
Yeah good topic. Forgive in its original meaning means to give completely. Today it means to give up the desire to punish completely and one early meaning of the word forget means to give up ones grip. I don't think the forgive and forget thing is two seperate ideas but two ideas that complete and clarify each others meaning.
I can relate to being unrepentant at times. I'll tell you why. I have an idea that if I apologize for something I should never do it again.
one meaning of the word repent is to feel so bad that you change.
2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better;
This is one disease that guilt and sorrow have no effect. We are powerless. No amount of shaming can stop it. Its in God's lap alone. Sometimes I feel bad for doing things that I know I am powerless to not do again. Do I apologize and grovel over something human like say a Burp? No I just say excuse me and its over. Don't even wait for me to grovel in shame. I know I'm going to do it again so How can I honestly and sincerely apologize??? If I would do it, it would just be a lie. I don't do that anymore.
I got told my eyeglasses were out of style a couple weeks ago and I needed to get with it???? I guess wire frames went out in the 1700's and black nerd frames are back in. I don't know, I admit, I'm not a slave to fashion and there is lots of room for criticisms in my dress but.. Once someone decides they don't like me for whatever reason, I often find that anything and everything I do or say offends them. Quite often someone is trying to make me feel repentant over something I can't change. This is shame, whenever we internalize something intrinsic about ourselves as bad. We then look at ourselves as internally Bad and this is toxic. If I accept the other persons judgment I am not having respect for myself nor respect for God's handiwork. This thing goes both ways I guess.
First I learned that the A's finger pointing, accusations and ridicule was actually what they saw wrong in themselves and was their pain and not mine. Then I learned my finger pointing said the same about me.. and it was not about them. To forgive the unrepentant I only have to gaze at my eyeglasses without remorse and understand I have a few things I don't feel bad about either and probably never will. The person that picked on my glasses wore Coke bottle lenses into her thirties before she "got with it." Mine look much better, I doubt if I change my style either. :) Until then I have to continue to forgive the unrepentant 7 times 70 times I guess.
and do their best to forget it and move on.
I work everyday on forgiving him a little, for me, not him. I personally don't care what happens to him in the Ever After. He has never and probably will never admit or apologize for the things he did to me. I don't think that part has anything to do with Aism. I think it may have to do with the testosterone (no offence to the men here 
