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A recent post brought up a great point, I thought. It was about the idea of "being close" to someone who is an A. What does it really mean to experience closeness? Is it even possible to have an experience of closeness with an A?
I struggle with this a great deal with the A's in my life in relationship to detachment, etc. What does it look like to be close in a good healthy way and what does it look like being close in an enmeshed, mergy, yucky way?
What's the yardstick for this?
I know that one feels good and right and clean and both parties end up winning and the other feels really awful, muddy, confused and both parties end up losing (ultimately) but I think this is a topic worth discussing here on this forum. I certainly would love to hear the wisdom of this group. Thanks- J.
My A and I have talked at length about this. We both really want to understand and it is hard to put a finger on for me, so far. I do know that when I was enmeshed it was like we were both drowning, pulling each other under. Neither of us could/would take care of ourselves and we seemed to just suck the life out of each other. It's not just them doing the sucking either. There were lots of things that I have found that I expected of him that I was capable of doing for myself. It's the neediness that is so unhealthy, I think. I got into a frame of mind that I couldn't do things without him that now I realise was a part of the insanity.
As far as healthy goes. I think that it's healthy to want someone, but be able to be ok when they are not. To accept help, but not want/need/allow someone to do for us the things we are capable of doing for ourselves.
That's part of it for me, anyway. I sure want to hear from others on this one. What a great topic.
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
I had/have felt "close" to my A for many years. Where did that feeling come from? And was it "real"? I know for sure that my "closeness" with my A originated many moons ago. Mix a serious case of puppy love, with the proper amount of affection, and loads of time spent together - then throw in a traumatic life event - and you've got a recipe for "closeness". And I think it was there - and I think it was real.
But years later when we got back together as fully "baggaged" adults, and we re-discovered that "closeness", I have to wonder how much of that was "real". We certainly looked "close" from the outside, but I think the better term would actually be "enmeshed". He had gaps and I had gaps. We overlooked some serious landmines in the name of "love". He was so busy "using" me (that's not a completely fair word, but for simplicity sake, it will do), that he didn't notice that I was taking advantage of the good he could offer me (a safe place to land, a non-judgemental soul, and a very warm body). Protection from the real world.
Then this last time around - I had my eyes wide open, and that sense of emotional "closeness" never really, truly materialized. There were moments of it (as close as one can be from around the globe), but it never felt "real". That was hard for me to understand and deal with. I wasn't able to fully "enmesh" like I wanted to at the time.
My head still CRAVES that closeness with him. I call it closeness. I want it to be healthy togetherness. But when one or both parties isn't healthy, then it's probably closer to enmeshing. (This program doesn't let me get away with anything!)
This gives me a topic for journaling. It's something I really need to explore for myself deeper. It's also about being truly honest about who we are with or without someone in our lives. Finding ways to get our needs met in healthy ways. I probably have no idea what an adult/adult relationship feels like.
You know when I went on the date with the needy guy recently I felt bad because I have behaved in much the same way he does, real needy pushy behavior, not being aware of my issues, projecting it out and then resenting that others do not take care of me. Of course I was never going to own up to this. One other issue I had was when I found out that I behaved badly I felt like I had to cure everyone else of it. I felt I could not have a boundary around it because it was not fair to judge others when I had behaved badly.
I work on being "real" with people all over. I work on being honest, humble (how hard that is), I also work on being available. I don't know that I ever was before. I find life hard going but being enmeshed and looking to others to take care of me was harder.
Ok, we may be a continent and ocean apart but somehow we seem to be on the same page....hhhmmmm, one of the good things about the disease of alcoholism?
I was driving home thinking about just this...being close. Feeling love in a good, healthy way. And I was wondering if I'm ready or if I will ever be ready. I have been so disconnected feeling. I was wondering if falling in love would help me feel connected again. Then again, I was wondering if I have to feel connected again before I fall in love. I am done with the illusion that I will go the rest of this life alone. I am ok alone, but someday (any day now HP) I do want to feel loved and be in a romantic relationship. But I want a good one this time and the more I learn about myself the more I know I will have a good one next time.
I have my doubts that the A and I were ever really "close". I see it all as manipulation on his part and not knowing any better on my part. I think when we first got together and we were so young.....nope. I can't look back anymore with my rose colored glasses. I never had rose colored glasses...I stole them from my ex MIL and they never fit.
All of my relationships begin within me. So, I have to be right with myself and love myself and accept myself and respect myself and most of all trust myself before I can do any of those things with anyone else, right?
As far as A's, when I was growing up I was pretty jaded about them. I loved them but I didn't get it. And then I fell in love with one and I grew to have compassion and understanding and all sorts of good stuff. My A took all that good stuff and twisted it and abused it and I have been left with nothing but ill feelings for him and sometimes A's in general. I used to go to alot of open AA meetings to hold onto my compassion (not pity, not empathy) but I have stopped as that is where A and GF hang. I have noticed that my compassion has dropped off the map since. But I do believe it is part of the process and I will get to a better place.
I know what unhealthy looks like and I know to avoid it at all costs, no matter what. Now, will I recognise healthy? I hope I do and don't let it walk away....
If you guys can honestly say you are close to your A in any way. Share any secrets, hopes dreams or goals you are one step ahead of me. Mine has severe issues that are there even when he is not drinking. Consider yourselves lucky. If I was close to him in any way I would almost not complain about the drinking but then again the drinking makes it easier not to have to be close. Anyway at the end of my rope tonight with the distance. Sorry
Yeah, I got 4000 miles of distance, too!! But this was my choice, I really could not live with him anymore, maybe never again, I will need to wait and see...
But closeness like with an adult child or a partner/spouse or a really good friend or family member, I do not know if its really really possible. First of all (for me), where there is no trust, how can there be any authentic closeness? I do not trust my AH and I have a very old dear friend who I adore and there is my mom and it seems that in the end, I really need to keep my distance and love them for who they are from afar. I can have a good close dialogue with them rarely. But then, its time to go.
See, I am having a devil of a time because I am just as much of an avoider of intimacy as they are. Jen put it really well when she talked about her part in it in her post. It is so hard for me to trust but I know I gotta crack that nut some day before I die. I am beginning to really get into the flow of trusting HP, finally. But its taken almost two years and I just easing into the stream of it, like barely getting my feet wet.
Some people define "being close" differently and I guess each one of us has a different definition of it. Is being close baring my soul to someone or them to me? Crying in each others arms? This could slip pretty quickly into a rescuing scene for me which is very toxic for me.
I am determined to gain trust, gain intimacy and experience good healthy closeness with someone by the grace of god and working this program (hear me HP!!)!
These posts are great you guys, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I love this place- J.
Aloha "J"... Close as in bullseye or close as in having your identity not separate from his? Today I go for the bullseye concept and not the other. I tried the latter one too many times and ended up not knowing who I was with out having to identify with the major partners. Major partners are like wives and intendeds and when 3 out of four were addicted to mind, mood and life altering chemicals I start shouting (in the 3 relationship) "I want my last name back" you're screwing it up. I was never close to the bullseye on any of those relationship although I was wishing hard for closeness. Under those conditions closeness cannot be attained because the other partner loves something else more than the relationship of she and me.
Sooo in recovery I gain knowledge of a new or different philosophy; that of "I love you. I like having you here with me but... I don't need you. (In order to have a complete, happy, fulfilled life. Present wife at first responds..."You don't love me!" my response "That's not true". She attempts, "If you loved me you would....." my response "That's not true". She later attempts, "You are having an affair with....." My response "That's not true". (multiply that last one several times with a still present fear (hers) that I somehow am. "That's not true."
I have a closer relationship with my HP first. All other relationships fall under that one. I am closest to my HP though not perfectly. You cannot identify my HP by point toward me nor can you Identify me by trying to understand who my HP is or isn't. My wife is not identified by who or what I am, how I work the program, the work I do or anything else and she today is grateful that she has gained and maintained her own personal identity. So am I because I also have my own very own. We are together and apart at the same time and share our lives (1) with each other and others. We are unique and not blended.
A person came up to me at the end of the morning meeting telling me that he had a wonderful experience from reading a wonderful book that his Al-Anon spouse had let him. He was deeply affected and grateful that his wife's sponser had gave her that book and had I also read it. I responded yes I had and agreed with his excitement. I then left for work without telling him that I first introduced that book to his wife's sponsor who also is my spouse after having it introduced to me by another recovering family group member. Isn't this amazing? We're put together separately and separately we help each other to be uniquely ourselves. Go figure!!
For me, the trust was broken with my A a while back (I don't even remember exactly when)... once he started the lying, we started to drift apart. And it was an insidious drifting apart, too! I hadn't even noticed. But I can see it in hindsight, now that you brought up this topic of "closeness." We haven't been close for a long time.
"Closeness" is something I have been thinking a lot about lately. My ah is all I have known, and as difficult as it is to admit, I don't think we ever really were close. There always seemed to be something missing, though it was impossible to identify since I never had anything else.
Funny thing is, that now that the denial is fading, I am starting to admit to myself that much of what my ah said in his angry rages about our relationship was true. Now that hurts. He doubted our "closeness" too. Looking back I can see how he tried to kindle our relationship and I just sort of set it aside sitting assured in the fact that he just loved me. Long ago, he subscribed to a Gary Smalley relationship video series, but I thought nothing of it, and neither of us made any real attempt to watch it. ONe anniversary he wrote me a beautiful letter saying he wanted more but accepted me for how I was. Another time, he came home from the mall and just handed me perfume. Another time, a Karma Sutra book. The poor guy was just screaming out that he needed more from me, but never made any attempt to really communicate and put it in words. Finally, he got what he was craving from someone else.
I still am trying to let go of the guilt and blame I carry. He still made bad choices. But, regardless, there was something that always kept me at a serious distance from him. Was it me or him I will never know. The more I am on this board I realize my feelings about our relationship were not unique, thus the aism personality must have played a significant role. Regardless, it makes me question how I would be in another relationship if I am ever blessed to have the chance.
I think about how I have been fighting for my marriage, but more than ever now, we probably wouldn't have the slightest chance to succeed. Honesty, I don't like him,and I have had to face that he is not the man I thought I was married to for so many years. Tough reality for sure.
Blessings, Lou
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
I know I crave closeness yet also fear it simultaneously because of my own disease. This is a real paradox for me. I think this is a real al-anon-ism: craving intimacy and closeness and also being scared to death of it.
Jerry, I think the idea of being involved with someone who can handle the "I love you but I do not need you" kind of thing would be great (I am saying this now- pre al-anon, I am not so sure I could have really understood what it even really meant). Not many people out there who can understand this level of even-keeled maturity, though ("love is supposed to sweep you off your feet" song and dance). And yes, my relationship with my HP is top priority, I agree 100%. Gotta have that in place. I have never had that piece in place until recently and its a mind-blowing change in perspective, for me. Its really rocked my world for the better and I am so grateful to this program for that shift. J.
I have no understanding of being scared of being close none at all I only see it as control and being mean and withholding. It hurts so much. I'm telling my A he can go this morning. 4 years of being loving, open, always wanting what's best for him and being told that I am the opposite (because of his programming) giving someone all and being accused of being less than. I have to stop it hurts too bad. I've even seen him appear to give more to people more like him, perhaps they seemed safer or he just plain liked them better or he wanted to be close to them in my sight to hurt me I don't know but I can not and will not live the rest of my life hoping for something that someone knows I want and withholds from me so he can be in control. I also think he wants to hurt me because he believes I come from a "better" background than him and he is punishing me for it. Anyway- now have years in recovery in Al Anon to look forward to boy I messed up my life- by my own choice- I knew what he was when I got with him and thought I could love him enough to make him happy. I'm so stupid!!! He wins everything he got 4 years of all of me and I got NOTHING but rejection! Oh well after I get over it I can go back to being hte me that I was before I met him which was pretty darn cool. Maybe it won't even take that long?
Closeness by definition - being in a place near to, nearby whilst remaining identifiably separate entities. [I like closeness as it still allows me to be identifiably ME, and I can stand on my own when I chose to.]
Enmeshing by definition - entangling, being so intertwined that it is difficult to separate one from the other. [I do not like enmeshing as it means I lose myself and become so entangled with the other that I lose my separateness.]
I am not entirely happy with enmeshing as the two look as one. However, if patience is present then the enmeshed pair can be separated out, though to is often not done because it takes time and effort to separate one from the other, and in that case the two will eventually be treated as one unit and it depends on the outside viewer which one of the two units becomes prevalent.
So, for me, enmeshing is not good, whereas closeness is good and wholesome and supportive whilst ensuring separate identity to be clearly perceived.
-- Edited by Heartbroken at 07:25, 2008-03-05
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"The highest form of wisdom is kindness." The Talmund
OK here's where I'm stuck, guys. I understand the thought process behind, "I love you, but I don't need you.", but in practical application, I don't truly understand how that could be. When we are in any kind of relationship with someone we care about (spouse, child, parent, friend), I think there's always some level of "need". Not in a clingy way. If we truly had NO need for the people in our life, then they would fall away. I don't think desire alone could sustain any long term relationship.
I don't need the people in my life in order to physically survive. I don't need to wrap my body around their leg so that they can't get away from me. I don't need to talk to them everyday. I don't need them to keep me entertained. I don't need them to rescue me. But I need to know that they are part of my life in some way. I need to know that I'm not alone in this world. That they would be WILLING to to be with me in a moment of "need".
I realize I'm fighting my own co-dependency issues, so this idea of "need" is something very relevant for me. I think about the people I know who are in long-term marriages that appear to be "normal" relationships. I tend to study those relationships. I don't see clinginess. I do see a "team approach" to going through life. A mutual desire, respect, love, affection............togetherness. There is a definite "oneness" quality about these couples. Do they need each other? I certainly get the sense that life wouldn't be nearly as happy for each of them without the other. Is that need?
Closeness implies intimacy with another. My spouse and I have been married many years. The closeness concept has changed over the years from the lustful first years to the place we are now....illness, longevity, anticipating and meeting one another's needs, doing for the other what he/she cannot do self, voluntarily doing because that is what you truly want to do. If one successfully keeps one's marriage vows (at least the one's we took), one understands that closeness may bring some unhappiness...it has for me. But overall, I wouldn't take anything in this world for what I experience him. Good has always balanced out with bad. We are close in every sense of the word. When I gripe about him not talking to me right now, I fully understand it is situational. He doesn't feel good and therefore remains pretty quiet and self-absorbed. I think this will pass. So for now the burden is on me.
Closeness with one's child is another matter altogether. This is the one I conceived, nurtured and carried until his birth....conceived in love, wanted. From the moment this child was placed in my arms moments after his arrival until yesterday, when the two of us clashed horribly, nothing has changed my feeling of closeness to him. Closeness to my child is a flesh and blood relationship. It is the biological/psychological mother-child bond.....perhaps the strongest bond of all. In my case, this closeness means I know my son is there for me if I need him in any way. He expresses his love for me all the time. He apologizes when he feels he has wronged me in some way. He loves to talk about our mutual interests in sports and politics. He knows how much I love his child and he relishes seeing us together, reading and playing, eating, singing. That is closeness. When aism intervenes, closeness doesn't just disappear!! Survival mode kicks in and I must look for ways to handle those times when things aren't so great.
"Enmesh" is a brand new word for me. I can see how some would view the mother/child relationship as unhealthy if that child is your own spouse/significant other....that is where the bad MIL jokes come in!! I guess it boils down to trying to evaluate what is healthy closeness. I just can't see how you can be truly close and see it as a negative. It is human to crave closeness with another. I consider myself lucky to feel closeness to my spouse, my son, my mother and father, many of my kinfolk, and yes, even my EX-DIL. I put all of these into my heart and prayers each day and ask blessings upon them. Upon those to whom I feel great and unending closeness.
I think being close with an A is possible. My AH and I were very good friends back in college. We have a long history together. We can be close but we can also be distant at times (and that's okay).
When he drinks (as he has the past 2 days) I tend to keep my distance. It's not him that I'm angry at. It's the disease. He can be a pain in the neck when he drinks. He's not violent, just a pain. Once he gets into bed, then I can breathe. I feel bad for him. But I don't feel sorry for him either. He has a disease and it's his choice to work his recovery or not. Right now he's stumbling. He has had long bouts of sobriety and yet he continues to relapse. But the odd thing is is that he will tell me that he drank (as if I didn't know). We talk about our recoveries. I"ve offered to go to meetings with him, even if that means sitting in the car while he goes in. But I also know his recovery is up to him. He has to do the legwork. I can't carry him. I have to be careful not to emotionally enable him. That could do more harm than good for both of us.
I think the key is knowing when to "WHEN". If we are too close at times, the relationship might become toxic. If I'm not keeping my head in the game, I can get sucked in to his stuff as well as other people's business. I can really get off kilter. Sometimes it's knowing when to be silent because I need to process something a little longer. Or I need to discuss it with a close friend or come here.
Like R3, we all have an inherent need for other human beings. It's what makes us human. I don't need toxic relationships. I may have them in my life (due to work. etc.) or encounter them due to other circumstances. It's the degree of how I let it impact my life that will directly affect me. This is where the great tool of Detaching w/love or detachment comes into play for me.
I love my sister, but because she chooses not to work on recovery (husband is an addict w/ on & off sobriety) I find at times it is best to keep my distance. I have really close friends but sometimes we need to take a break from each other. It's not that they wouldn't be there for me or vice versa. It's just the nature of the beast. Our lives can get chaotic and we each need to take care of ourselves first. I do other humans to emotionally exist. But I also know that I am strong enough if I had to "cut someone loose" I can and would survive. But I'd be awfully lonely if I had no one in my life.
Hope this long winded reply makes sense. Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
-- Edited by Karilynn at 08:53, 2008-03-05
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
For me, its was just very very difficult to be close with a person who is screaming at the top of his lungs, "SHUT UP BITCH!", etc. and then has tantrums because I do not want to speak or say a single word or get into a dialogue with him after years and years of being yelled at this way. Someone who punches holes in the walls, punches himself in the head, etc.
I had to leave and I thank god I did. Its been 2 years now and I am doing really well.
Yeah, I know its his disease but I get to choose if I am going to live with someone/remain married to someone who has this disease or not. When we met he was much more balanced but he had rapidly gotten massively worse and worse and this disease progressively gets worse and worse, it does not ever "improve" or go away, or rarely does. Being in recovery simply halts the progression of the disease. He does not think he has any problems, he thinks everyone else does (even the poor phone solicitors) and that he is the cat's pajamas. No recovery program for him, no gratitude, no kindness or gentleness, no god. What a horrible existence.
I have a ton of hope for myself and am a happy little light again after being away from him for 2 years. I have some great family and friends and many wonderful opportunities. I like who I am and what my life has been like these past two years. The last time we were living together (2 years ago), there was nothing nice, pleasant, civil or friendly about a single one of our interactions.
I will try to keep an open mind and see what he is like when we meet again in a couple of months. I will watch and see what I see, then decide. J.
I have to agree that you can't be close with an A. Closeness implies trust and with an A there can be no absolute trust. I suppose it's ill advised to trust anyone absolutely which is new to me because I have always been overly trusting. I didn't have the deep understanding I now have about lies, manipulation and hidden agendas. My A and I were TOO close. What level of closeness is right? I don't know maybe it's not about the depth, it's about being able to let go of it when the need arises.
I think maybe Karilyn has hit on a key point. Healthy closeness means needing people around you, that's human nature, but also being able to let go of them at any given time that it would be prudent to give them space or take time to myself.
There are people in my life that I love dearly that I must keep my distance from, too. And there seem to be varying degrees of closeness and different types, too, ie: mother/child, spouse, sibling, friend.
One thing that I thought of when reading from Jeans reply was that there can also be areas of closeness. My AH and I are starting to be close in some aspects of our lives and not at all in others. My mother and I are very close in some ways, but in some ways very distant. I can talk intimately with either of these people about SOME things, but not everything. AND, the realization of this feels very healthy. I know I can share some parts of myself with these people without feeling obligated to share parts of me that I don't feel comfortable sharing.
So does that mean that you may be able to really be close to an A. I think, yes, but it will vary by degrees according to factors like sobriety, strength of both my program and his. I am learning too that there are some things where I can trust my AH and some things that I will never trust him about again. I can trust him to work his own recovery the best he can. I can be realistic that he is an A and I will never give him control of the families finances again.
Also I think that trust of ourselves is very necessary in order to be close to someone else. We have to be able to trust ourselves to recognise the warning signs of becoming enmeshed and to be able to put the brakes on or disentangle. I can trust myself too, not to bury my head in the sand again, esp where money is concerned.
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
I truly believe we're put on this earth to take care of each other. To rely on each other. This implies that we must "need" each other in some kind of way. I "need" lots of folks in my life....my doctor, the trash collector, policemen, etc. Why is it so wrong to need our friends, our families, our spouses? If we care for our friends, our families, and our spouses - then I think it's a "normal" progression that we become "close" to them in some way. Share some sort of intimacy that we don't share with the clerk at the post office. Ya know? When we establish that next level of intimacy, then we've established closeness. (I realize that there are dozens of levels of closeness.)
But I agree with the others who said that trust is important to "closeness". The problem that so many of us have with our A's is that trust has been damaged or destroyed along the way. And that's where I go off the deep end. Feeling close to someone who has just lied to me plays a crazy head game with me. Makes me question everything that I thought I "knew" for sure. That's hard to reconcile for me. But I don't want to throw out the whole concept of closeness, needing, and loving - simply because I got screwed on the deal before.
I'm kinda all over the map on this one (I KNEW I needed to journal on this some), but it hit such a spark with me.
Oma - I LOVE your take on closeness. You describe is SO beautifully. That's the level of closeness I aspire to find with someone. And Karilynn - you said the rest of it for me when you mentioned being strong enough to cut someone loose and survive. That's the part that separates "love" from "need" for me.
I know today that I can live without another person in my life, but it would be very lonely. I also know that I don't want just any warm body next to me. I want what Oma has described. And I do think that there's a level of healthy "need" in that description. It's a lifetime of depending on each other (in a good way!).
I have to admit that the first time I heard the philosophy of loving and not needing it thru me for a loop and then after reflection and time and discussion and time and meditation and time it came to me that some people have a better take and practice of what self love and confidence is.
I stopped being lonely when I began that part of the program that was self love. At times I was alone...I wasn't lonely because I was okay with myself and didn't need another to complete me. Additionally my HP had become a constant awareness and therefore companion...beyond my childhood religious upbringing.
Another thing I learned or realized was that many of my mistakes in relationships resulted from my being needy. I wanted and would do for others so that they felt good about me and want to accept and be with me. Many of the others that I enabled were not good for me to be around so my neediness along with my groping desire to please and be pleased as a result ended in disaster. Also many of the needs that I thought would be fulfilled by others were never fulfilled either volutarily or involutarily. Having a relationship with people (darn imperfect human beings) was a crap shoot until I let go of my neediness and learned to accept all other human being for exactly who they were (my present accepted definition of love given to me in this program by a loving member). Today I have all manner of people in my life whom I love unconditionally and whom I don't need. They don't subtract from me and they don't add to me. They are like me at time and different at others. They were not here before I met them and now that I have met them I feel as wonderful as I felt before I did. I didn't need them before today and won't tomorrow. I have had three wives and didn't realize until I came to understand that I didn't need any of them though I thought I did at some time or another. Before they came into my life I was okay. After they were gone I returned to being okay and then went back to needy with another. Crazy huh?
As I mentioned earlier; I am in my third marriage. I love my wife. I love my self. I love my HP. I only need my HP because only God can do for me what I can't do for myself and God offers me choices for the sake of my progress with seemingly perfect detatchment and trust and faith that I will do the right thing now after program. My wife and no one else does that for me that way. My wife needs my verification in whatever form it comes. She needs to have me do things for her or in her way to attain whatever satisfaction she derives from it. Part of her importance seems to come from "having" a husband. That was a want and a need for her. When I decided to come back home before we married or engaged and told her of my decision she said, "What about me?" The rest of that conversation is kept confidential. She struggles with needs. Needs seem to anchor a person's progress spiritually...my opinion only...it was that way with me...my experience and my courage to change.
It's not a perfect mindset. Even I can punch holes in it if I wanted. Practicing it has worked...for me. I can't remember the last time I was lonely probably just before my sponsor leading me back toward self love.
) I do want to feel loved and be in a romantic relationship. But I want a good one this time and the more I learn about myself the more I know I will have a good one next time. 
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