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Why is it that I feel guilty about him not seeing his son? I need to come to some resloution that puts the responsibility completely on him. I feel that by not answering the phone when he calls, responding to emails texts, etc. that I'm cutting off all opportunities for him to step up because I'm not allowing any contact at all. I really don't know if he will follow through and put forth the effort to come see him or not. I really need help figuring out how to do this. I want to feel guilt free, like I did everything I could do to allow him to see his son and right now I don't. Some ESH on this would be really appreciated! I'm not sure of the best path, I'm not sure if him seeing his son is a good thing for our son or me. I'm seriously struggling with which is the right moral thing to do? Do everything I can to ensure my son sees his father and they have every opportunity to bond or protect my son from seeing a father who is in and out of his life constantly and unstable.
Following are my personal feelings, CG, and are not necessarily the position of AlAnon or anyone or anything else.
His father has a right to see his child. Unless a court of law has decreed otherwise. This does not mean you must be there every time he phones or tries to make contact, but you do need to allow him visitation with his child. I would probably let him know, by email or text, that he must contact you only when his contact involves seeing his son.
It is not in your son's best interest either to keep him totally estranged from his father.
I know it is hard on you. It is on your boy too...and his father. Do try, for your son's sake, to arrange a schedule so that your son AND his dad know what to expect.
As always, I send best wishes,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Thank you for reminding me on days when I feel like I am getting nowhere I have made some progress. I feel absolutley no guilt at all about the A. I know I did absolutely everything I could to help him, far far far far beyond any call of romance, love, relationship whatever. He was absolutely hell bent on destroying himself and acting out his rage. He continued to do that, every other second getting a speeding ticket, trashing the car, trashing everyone.
Like your A the A I was with had so many excuses, he blamed the people he lived with (they certainly had their issues but they did not take over responsibility for the a's life).
One reason I have so many boundaries at this time is because I am really easily manipulated. When I know I have been manipulated like by the two psychopaths who just left the house I live in I get so angry. There are times when I go along with being manipulated because I am in some kind of a relationship and being liked.
People pleasing is huge for me. I've read and read on it. I can get caught in it in an instance. I have to keep coming back to what do I need. What do I want.
You are permitted to have needs and wants and you are permitted to take care of yourself. Do you have to be perfect too? Maresie.
Ever decreasing circles is what I see you doing at this moment in time. STOP. You are taking in projected GUILT, AGHHHH bat it back NOW.
You are not responsible for all that happens in your life, your children's life or their father's life. Each have a share in this. You need to stop doing everything for the father in this matter. Look at what you need to do. You have done it.
Your children will never learn that BOTH parents have responsibilities if you keep on doing it all. That is what happened with my A and he has a lot to answer for, both in his life and their lives.
As I see it therefore, and you have been here before, you have done your share, whereas the father has NOT.
OVER TO HIM, SIMPLE AS THAT. No excuses, no if's, no but's.
-- Edited by Heartbroken at 12:10, 2008-02-26
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"The highest form of wisdom is kindness." The Talmund
Thanks diva, there is still the restraining order so I guess in reality a court has decreed. It is almost up though. I have absolutely no doubt that if I had an endless stream of money to pay for a lawyer (and still take care of 3 kids) and took him to court for custody I would win and he would get no visitation. I also know that boys without fathers are much more likely to end up in prison, drug addicts, etc. On the other hand boys with addict fathers who keep going to jail as an example are probably no better off in reality.
I know the guilt is not mine but I also feel that keeping my side of the street clean includes answering his calls and allowing him to make plans to see his son/dropping his son off at a place near where I live to see him. I don't want him at my house or even knowing where I live if it can be avoided because my oldest daughter is scared of him and has fears about him showing up while I'm not home. It is impossible to balance these things. My son is too young to understand not to give directions to our house... and I'm just as responsible for my daughter's peace of mind as I am for my son's. I also don't want to make him afraid of his father by trying to explain why not to tell him where we live although I did do that somewhat already when he talked to him on the phone a while back.
My A lives an hour from my area and there is NO public transportation so for him to get to my area shows serious initiative.
Heartbroken, I wish I could see it this way. He certainly has NOT done his share. I'm not sure what "over to him" looks like. Is that he makes it to my area I bring our son to meet him for a few hours? Because that's what I had in mind. Or does it mean he can get some cash together (nevermind the fact he can't even pay child support) and get a lawyer and have me served for visitation? That seems extreme. Nevermind the fact that he doesn't know where I live. He DOES know where I work tho. I'm certainly not enabling him or making it easier for him. I just don't know what to do here, what is enough on my part, what is enough on his? I'm not doing everything for him. From my perspective I'm not doing anything for him except setting a meeting location and bringing the 2 kids that want to go. I don't plan to stay, I'll pick them up at a set time. They can spend the day at the beach together and everyone is happy. Or so the delusion goes. We'll see.
I agree CG. Dad is not a good example of a loving, giving father. By he IS the boy's father. If you keep your son completely away from him, unless ordered by the court to do so, that decision of yours will come back to haunt you. In years to come, your son will not be happy with your having kept them apart, no matter how necessary you think it is. SUpervised visitation with you always present might work; or with some court-appointed overseer. Not all dads are Beaver Cleaver's dad, but Dad is Dad.
Please don't misunderstand my remarks. I, in no way, would ever say anything to offend you; but you have to look at the cold, hard facts.
It's tough. I don't envy your position. I know you are reacting out of a mother's love for her child. Honestly, dear, I don't know what I would do. It is easy to say what you should do.
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
You see why I say my life is easier when he's in jail..
I don't have to worry about these things then. I know he IS his dad. I agree he should see him if dad puts out the effort. I have a thousand scenarios in my head of various outcomes. I don't think even a court order would make a difference with it coming back to haunt me with my son. I have no desire to supervise, I think he's safe with his dad, that's not the issue. I know he wouldn't have the money to pay a court supervisor and there's no one else here to do the job. I don't think he would ever hurt or abuse him in any way. I think I'm coming to a resolution here:
Call him and work out the meeting arrangements, skip lunch - I probably would lose my appetite anyway - and let him show up or not. I'm just so tired of the drama, I don't want to fight, I just want to be done with this. I can talk to him and just not discuss things like custody or anything else of importance. Just when and where. I'll drop them off here and pick them up here at _ time. He shows or he doesn't.
For me I think one of the hardest things is to leave the A to his own devices. Most of the time the A does not bother me. He knows he can get under my skin very quickly which is one reason he calls late at night. Right now the A has some stuff in my storage unit. My storage unit is pretty full right now and to get the stuff out would be very difficult for me. Nevertheless I am really super clear and was with the A that I no longer "jump" for him. I 've told him if and when he wants the stuff he will have to give me notice.
I "jumped" for the A all our relationship as a way to manage my feelings about him. In January I was swamped with grief, anger and guilt about how he behaved a year ago. I did not contact him but he was very much in my thoughts. I was also overwhelmed with caring for the dogs on my own.
I no longer "jump" for the A. I choose really carefully how I react to him. I chose carefully to call him and tell him not to call me. he has not called since. I am sure I have not heard the last of him. At the same time I'm not about to change my phone number of address. He has no access to the storage without me there. He has no idea when I am home or if I am home and I choose not to let him know what I am doing.
There are things I need to do to separate more from him like not get mail at our shared po box. I am working on that.
I just wanted to challenge you that you don't actually have to jump and do anything. You still have a restraining order. You can regroup, reflect and think about what's best for you. My days of "jumping " for anyone are over and I am proud of that accomplishment.
First of all, people assume that he is an adult. Meaning that you will say "do ABC to see your kid" and he, being a reasonable adult, whose ONLY desire and concern is the wellbeing (physically and mentally) of his child. This is not the case. And in these cases, it is NOT in the best interest of the child to be continually abandoned by a parent. And that is what you are setting your child up for. Continued abandonment and chaos.
Personally, I believe that he has given up his "rights" as a father. His choices deleted his "rights" and the "RIGHTS" of your kids to have a sane, sober, loving, stable childhood trumps any and all "adults" who think they have a "right" because they had sex once and the result was a child. Personally, I believe that he is just trying to start the drama again. I believe this because if he was sincere he would be going about this all differently. You are not responsible for setting up a "playdate". If your kid wants a playdate how about picking a kid his own age who doesn't have a drug habit or history. Your kid would learn much more about love, life and friendship from a child his own age rather than an adult who is menatlly younger than his own son.
I think you are opening the door for the chaos and insanity and all those really crappy feelings. I think you are being unsafe with yourself and your serenity. I think you are just missing the drama he adds to your life and still have a bit of hope that he will pay support/ be an active partner in raising the kids with you.
There is NOTHING to feel guilty about. Not a thing. Not even giving him the gift of being a father. Because he rejected that gift. But you got the gift of being a mother to 3 wonderful, beautiful kids. His loss, NOT yours. It is NOT your job to enable/encourage/ direct/ control his fatherhood. NO ONE can see the future. No one. And the thing is, you are not just being a vindictive bitch and keeping him from the kids for no apparent reason. When those kids grow up and look back and ask you about it, you will be able to say " I kept you safe from a very unsafe person and it was the hardest thing I did. But it was the best thing I did. Your father is unsafe and put you children in danger many times. He had every oppurtunity to have a hand in raising you and he declined." Speaking from experience, your kids will hold you responsible for how you treated tham and how you provided for them. They will not hold you responsible for their father not being there. Nor will they be able to blame you for what he didn't do.
CG, it is your decision and if you are comfortable with doing whatever it takes for him to "see" his kids, if you believe in your heart of hearts that that is what is the very best interest of the kids, and has nothing to do with you and him (no excitement, no fantasy, strickly about the kids) then go ahead and enable him to be a father. But do NOT feel guilty for NOT doing for him what he SHOULD be doing for HIMSELF. Remember he is a grownup and he could figure it all out if he really wanted to. He just doesn't want to. Guilt can lead to self pity and self pity can lead to pity of others. Don't pity him.
I passed along the # for the third party visitation to ex thru 2 other people and then I was done. I was done enabling him to be a dad long before that but that was the very last bit of attachment I had in me. And I didn't do it for him or me, I did it for the kids. Funny, he hasn't followed thru on that once he found out I was not involved in the least bit. Sick but true. Once he understood that I have nothing to do with any visitation and he was going to be unable to "get at me" thru the kids, he lost interest in being a dad. HHmmmm
"Just for today I will live thru this day only...." CG one of the early truths I was given in this program is that enables have inappropriate feelings and perceptions. I feel guilty for acting in a responsible way...doen't make sense. I perceive that what I am doing that is appropriate to my situation is wrong. I was sharing with my wife last evening what a sponsor taught me ages ago that still sticks with me today. He said, "When ever you are having a problem with what it is that you should be or are doing hold it up to the light of the Serenity Prayer." It was my fear and lack of self esteem that caused me to continually caused me to feel that I wasn't doing the right (perfect) thing and that someone in the world wasn't going to feel good about it. Today my thinking and perception is..."This is what I am doing for now. It is what my mind, emotions and spirit tells me is right for the moment. I am open to further suggestions that may alter my process and I am the judge of that. For now my situation and process is. If anyone doesn't agree with that I will listen and continue to make my own decisions." The short version of this is the "Oh well" version. "This is my decision and my process. If you don't like it....Oh well."
Keep coming back. This too will pass. (((((hugs)))))
Wow... this is a very tough one, and I'm sure there is no "right" answer, but simply one that works best for you....
For me, I had the opposite situation, with an alcoholic wife, who was in and out of the house several times over quite a few years.... I tried to not "take the kids away" from her, but also had to walk that fine line of what was in their best interests, as there were times where their mother was so unhealthy that she was not good for them whatsoever.... I relied on people I trusted - my sponsor, close friends, etc, to help me through the worst of the times, cuz quite honestly, we become too enmeshed in it all, and we are either so angry at our spouse that we take the kids away to spite them, or we are so used to being manipulated by them that we allow them to see them regardless of the circumstances....
In the end, I think it is about where YOUR sense of right & wrong lies, and how you can honor yourself and your children in all of this. I believe that if you give your hubby a fair set of personal boundaries for these visits to happen, that don't contravene the court orders, etc., then you are in effect putting the responsibility back onto HIS shoulders, and then it is HIS choice whether he wants to see his children or not.
In doing it this way, I believe you will address those feelings of guilt...
Take care Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
There is such a range of opinion on this issue it's amazing. Serendipity, not only was I not "mad" I laughed thru about 1/2 of it. Plus, I think initially I was not missing the drama but feeling like maybe he was "getting better" and that might have been part of the initiative for my call. Jerry, thank you for reminding me that I can change my mind and am able to make decisions based on my gut feeling. Tom, I think you really feel what I'm saying here. He has met the personal goals of having a job, home, sobriety (as far as I know) and the last one was that he had to find a way out to my area to see them. I feel that by not communicating at all I'm preventing him from seeing his son. I definitely want that to be HIS burden to bear and feel that I have done all I can. This is such a complex issue because I know he hasn't given up on the idea of getting me back and every time I speak to him I like him less and less. I am wondering if it will be like serendipity said and he will lose all interest when he realizes that I'm not part of the equation. All I can do is wait and see what actually happens. I told him I would call back to plan when and where we will meet Friday. I'm not going to. If he calls before then and takes the initiative I will arrange for the visit but pass on the lunch. That's my plan... for now...
Look at what you can change, and accept that and change it.
Accept the things you cannot change, and stop trying to change them - you cannot afford the energy, the drama, the insecurity and all that comes with 'flogging a dead horse'.
If you can put your hand on your heart and truly say, I have NOT put anything in the way of this father seeing his children in a safe environment (and that means for YOU as well as the children, without compromising the safety of you and your children), then you have done nothing immoral.
However, if you compromise your safety and the children's safety (that is, by setting something up that will leads him to your home and causes more fear and anxiety for your daughter, the other children and yourself) then you are opening up a 'hornets nest'.
He has, in the meantime, to do a bit of proving that IF a visitation could be arranged to everyone's mutual satisfaction THEN he will be expected to honour that in the same way that he expects you to honour the arrangements.
In this way, HE has to do a bit of leg work, foot work, brain work, and listening as well as talking to do but from what you have said, over a considerable time now, he does not seem capable of one iota of this, and in that way you are back to 'flogging the dead horse'. However you can put your hand on your heart and say to the children with integrity that you never stopped him from seeing them and being with them if that is indeed the truth, which I believe is the truth.
And that is what seems to come over in you post the strongest, that you want to be able to be seen to be fair as well as to know you have been fair, for your own sake and your own conscience.
I hope I have not been too hard or too negative, it is my way of working out what is reality and what is an idealistic situation that one would love to have if all the support groups and both parties were working for the good of the children. I feel that this is an idyllic dream as I am not certain that it is possible to evoke this in reality.
I just don't see him doing that. He is all SELF, and uses SELF to project guilt and drama and fear as a way of control. HE cannot possibly take any more guilt on, so you in his mind must be the guilty one. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE but you will never get him to understand that.
I am praying real hard that you will understand what I am trying to say to you and that you will see what is realistic and what is not and in the meantime, KEEP your family and your home SAFE. Do not compromise that at any cost.
My opinion and mine alone, I cannot tell you that I am right, I can only tell you how I see it and what I fear that you might be inviting in if you are not very careful in this situation. Be safe, and set those boundaries and KEEP TO THEM. HE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY HERE, but I really doubt that he can take on ANY RESPONSIBILITY, that being the case you cannot be the guilty one. But you have to show your children that responsibility belongs to both parents, not just one.
With love as always, take care, and give it to your HP as I give it to God.
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"The highest form of wisdom is kindness." The Talmund
You know, there is probably, somewhere, some social worker or other official who is exactly qualified to help you with this - the problem is finding that person and getting the help you need without getting into the clutches of the 'system' and never getting back out.
If I am understanding what you are saying, what you would like is some way for the boy to have safe and supervised contact with his father that you don't have to be in the middle of. If this were happening to me, right where I am, I would go down to the Family and Community Social Services office, ask to speak to a counsellour, and get some advice and guidance from someone who knows what the system can and cannot do. I'm in Canada though, and I get the feeling that Social Services in the US are run differently.
Uh, can I come to Canada PLEASE???? Where they actually DO something and everyone doesn't have to pay and pay and pay? I think social workers actually make a living wage there. I am barely above the poverty level here and I have a 4 year degree. I'd come there but I can't get a passport for my son without his father's permission LOL.
My daughter's father had gotten so bad with drinking and abuse that I fled out of town to escape. I made an appointment to see a therapist, who happened to be in Alanon for many, many years. She advised me to keep my daughter safe. He took me to court and was able to get weekend visitation. I was absolutely terrified. He wound up passing out drunk while she was with him and the police were called. I took him to court for supervised visitation which was granted. He had to do mandatory drug and alcohol testing which shortly thereafter he failed to show up. That was 8 years ago. He hasn't seen her since. He has a choice to help himself, just like I had a choice to protect my daughter. It is my responsibility as a parent to not put my child in harms way. This is not just about the drinking. This is about her witnessing him verbally and physically abusing me which is child abuse plain and simple. I would be participating in child abuse if I allowed it to continue. The same goes with my father. He verbally abuses me in front of my child, so I ended the relationship with him. They are grown adults who need to take responsibility for their actions and I will not place my child nor myself in those types of situations anymore. I tell my daughter that her father loves her, but he is too sick for her to be around.
This reminds of a situation - less complex - involving my grandma, where there were lots of opinions and high feelings and she wanted A but A was impossible, and B, which was what was happening, was unacceptable long term, and I felt like I had to DO SOMETHING!
This was the first time I really started to understand the power of the Serenity Prayer. I love what Jerry said about "holding it up to the light" of the prayer, and I think maybe that's what I started doing. Instead of continuing to go round and round about it, the Serenity Prayer helped me break it down into pieces:
What were the pieces of this mess that I couldn't change? I couldn't change my grandmother's first impossible choice. I couldn't change my aunt's mind about what was right for her. I couldn't fix the relationship between my grandmother and my aunt. None of that was "my stuff", and it was appropriate for me to recognize that and let it go.
So what COULD I do? Well, I decided that I could drive out there and drive my grandmother around to show her that she did have choices, and take copious notes all the while so I could see what was important to her as well as what was important to me, and summarize that for her in writing (it's harder for her to hold a bunch of stuff in her head these days - she was 94 at the time).
Once I had decided this, I immediately felt calmer. The implementation of it was fairly drawn out, but me figuring what I could actually do that wasn't somebody else's stuff was huge.
It seems to me that you have already done much of this.
You have recognized that you can't change: - that he's the dad. - that your son kinda wants to see him. - that your daughter not only doesn't, but is afraid of him. - that you set some boundaries which, against all expectations, he has honored. - that you therefore feel bound (rightly or wrongly, irrelevant - it's how you're feeling - ) to honor your part of the deal (not standing in the way of a visit with his son).
There's nothing wrong with any of that.
It seems to me, and I think others have said this, that where you may be falling down is in substituting "facilitating a visit with his son" in the place of "not standing in way of". Facilitating is not your job, your responsibility, or even helpful - remember we give them the dignity of being responsible for themselves, and part of that is not having things done for them that they can and ought to be doing for themselves. So maybe it would help you to not feel guilty if you remind yourself that by not going over and above, you are actually helping him learn to stand on his own two feet - if he chooses to take advantage of the opportunity. That choice is "his stuff".
I would maybe try breaking the mess down into the tiniest pieces you can, and examining each one individually. For example: you said you would call. Okay, so you honor that, and call, but make it clear that you will not be initiating calls in future. If he gets huffy, "I've decided that's what I need to do to take care of myself", stated calmly, and as many times as it takes, is fine. Or one I used once was, "I think it's important for you to know that you can take care of this yourself." Pass on the lunch, like you said. "I've decided that's what I need to do to take care of myself".
Daughter is scared. Does she know that if he shows up, you are not only okay with her calling 911 but encourage it? You could even talk about what she can say. "My stepdad just showed up and my mom told me I should call 911 if that ever happened" is fine. You're the grownup, it's okay for her to rely on you to get into the details.
Your son is young and apt to answer questions about where you live truthfully? Practice with your son saying "mommy asked me not to talk about that". That puts it back on you. No need to go into complicated, confusing, scary reasons with your son. If he asks, tell him it's pretty complicated, and you'll be glad to talk to him about it when he's 10 (or whatever age). Then ask A (calmly) not to discuss where you live with son ("I've decided that's what I need to do to take care of myself"), and tell him you've asked son the same.
With every piece, ask yourself, what is the part of this I cannot change? Okay, are there things I could do? Now, are the things I'm thinking of "my stuff"?
Are you getting to your meetings? I know you're pushed for time, but the calm that comes from that personal contact with people who understand might actually help you feel like you have a little MORE time.
And whatever you decide - hugs (((((((carolina))))))). I know it seems like you're walking through a minefield, and I know you have to do the walk on your own - but you are not alone.
