Co-dependency ~ Alcoholism - Al-Anon Family Group

Lady · Veteran Member

Co-dependency ~ Alcoholism

serendipity · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: Co-dependeny ~ Alcoholism

Tiger2006 · ~*Service Worker*~

"...Now it all makes sense in the context of an alcoholic marriage, and that's the context for which it was originally created. It made sense to me then, and it still does as long as it is limited to spouses of alcoholics. The problem arose when the alcoholic spouse was left out of the equation, and it was applied to all of us. ..."

I really liked how this writer put it: he was blithe and blunt, while being honest and direct.
Co-dependency, for me, wasn't about that I was the daughter of an alcholic. It was about the fact that I did everything that this author discussed. Moreover, it was taken to the level of sexual and physical violence, which, given the writing style and the thinking this author illustrates, I would imagine he would agree cannot exist outside of a co dependent household. For my father to be "happy" I had to "co-operate;" if I didn't "co-operate" then I was the "problem," (notice that his alcholism and drug addictions enter no where into this discussion) and therefore became justification for "diciplinary actions and intervention." That also means that I was "responsible for what was happening to me." A child cannot discern from skewed alcholic logic and dangerous dysfunction.
Now, take it up a notch: when I **DID** "co-operate" I was still "diciplined" for my "behavior," because I had caused my family "problems:" such as bad grades; such as issues with friends; such as having no friends. In this context, the abuse now becomes a manipulative tool, so it doesn't matter **what** I do, or don't do; how I do, or what I don't do; I will be "diciplined," and this includes the molestation. So this also gave me, as a child, incentive to do whatever my father wanted to make him happy, especially since, as a child, I had no incentive to believe that I could effectively fight him.
Keeping in mind that this was well before al anon; well before professional intervention; that my mother has chosen, consistently, to defend my father and blame me for the history of our family, and the long term effects (which all of us are living with); yes, I still believe I have co-dependent behaviors.
I still have terribly controlling and hypersensitivity.
I still over analyze and believe that I know best.
I still seek "substitutes" to fufill the holes that need to be filled from where my family was ideally to fill them.
I hold people up to my own standards that I cannot meet, then become upset and believe they are abandoning me for seemingly failing me

This is co dependency for me. I doubt it is destroying marriage. I have a feeling it is being used incorrectly. However, time, and education, will change, and new terms will emerge. And then, new "threats" will, too. In the mean time, I will continue to see myself as a person that believes they need God, recovery, and the 12 steps.

Jean4444 · ~*Service Worker*~

well, its an interesting article, I guess but some of the logic does not hold up for me.

Al-anon works for me. It works really well.

I do not know exactly what I am or if I am a hybrid of alcoholism, co-de, adult child of an alcoholic, or whatever and there is a family history of food issues, too, to throw into the mix...and I know I am not alone- many many of us have sundry issues including family histories of sexual abuse, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum...

...in other words we all have our stuff. call it what you will. Label it however. For me, all that matters is the recovery, the 12 steps, the fellowship, the literature and my HP.

I have sat through marriage therapy with two different kinds of therapists. None of it worked for all sorts of reasons, the basic one was that my husband and I really did not want it to work. Or else it would have. Also, he is untreated bi-polar and its really hard to make any sense or experience any consistency with someone with such a serious untreated mental illness- one therapist simply threw his hands up and one point. He would not even take the money we owed him.

Most therapists who write on-line articles are doing so to 1.) sell books, or 2.) attract customers. They know that there are tons of desperate people out there trolling the internet looking for ways to "save their marriage". I prefer to focus on me, my program and attend al-anon meetings which cost exactly $1 each time I attend. I get to remain anonymous and I get to take it one day at a time. Just my opinion, take what you would like and leave the rest. I am going to focus my energy on changing and working on me, not fixing my husband or my marriage. hugs, J.

Lady · Veteran Member

I have found that living with an A brings a set of "problems" that are unique to Aism. I tried to apply principles of marriage therapy to my marriage to an A and it never worked and actually made things worse. Communication is NOT the "issue" when it comes to Aism. I found the article you posted interesting but for me, it held no help. I have sat with my A and a marriage counclior for years and things got crazier and crazier.

Hi Serindipity....Yes I can certainly understand the crazier and crazier it can get.

Husband and I couldn't do it either....Husband at the time was still on script drugs, going through treatment, and could only talk about himself, it never did get to "us" or "family."
This is why Dr. Harley never recommends marriage counseling unless the A has undergone A treatment first. It won't work. Unless the A has a recovery program in place, the marriage cannot begin to recover.

I will say that divorces from an A is for selfish self centered reasons. The A's, not ours. I am no where near perfect but the disease is selfish and self centered.

Yes many divorces happen due to the selfishness, self-centeredness, and abuses of A.

Thankyou for responding, and I wish you all the best.

Lady

Lady · Veteran Member

Tiger2006....

well before professional intervention; that my mother has chosen, consistently, to defend my father and blame me for the history of our family, and the long term effects (which all of us are living with); yes, I still believe I have co-dependent behaviors.

Yes you were subject to the worst abuses, and taught to be "unhealthily" codependent from very young. And I know it's taking you a lifetime to unlearn.
If only your parents could "see" thier responsibility in it all. What a shame.
May God help you.
Be strong.

quoted by the Dr.

Wives of alcoholics usually know about their husbands' sexually abusive behavior toward their daughters and offer themselves as "bait" to prevent their abuse. The pain suffered by these women in the privacy of their bedrooms, during these frightening sexual encounters, is extraordinary.

Please see the rest of this letter by The Dr.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Lady

-- Edited by Lady at 12:40, 2008-02-22

Lady · Veteran Member

RE: Co-dependency ~ Alcoholism

SLS · Senior Member

The writer goes throught the list of "co-dependent" behaviors as if married to an alcoholic and his answer to all of the questions is "If I were married to an alcoholic, my answer to this statement would be "no."

How does he know that?? He is NOT married to an A. I find it a bit condescending that he assumes that he would answer the same way if he were...

I have visited that website and there is alot of knowledge there but it does not translate, for me, to my life with my AH. It is true that the author recommends that no marriage counseling take place until the substance-absue issue is resolved. Therein lies the problem with trying to apply article to my life as the spouse as an A--even a sober A as is my husband.

I quit visiting the website because I grew frustrated because my situation did not seem to "track" with the general wisdom about marriages. I finally realized why, my marriage is entirely different from a marriage in which there is no substance abuse. While it may appear to share some of the same traits of a marriage plagued by "co-dependency" gone wild, but if you dig deeper, it is unlike those marriage. The same "cures" for what ails us does not necessarily apply, and that's okay. That is why I am grateful to have found Al-Anon.

Al-Anon works for me. Al-Anon is a program designed for me--the spouse of an AH (or for a family or friend). Al-Anon has shown me how to live a serenity-free life whether my A is drinking or not. It taught me that my relationship with my AH is like a dance and if I change my part then the dance must change. It has helped me to accept that so long as I remain with my sober AH, I will be in a relationship with an A--the isms don't go away with sobriety--his or mine. But I know now how to work on my isms and I know how to leave him alone to work on his. I also now have hope that we can have a "healthy" relationship with time, hard work and faith in my HP.

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

i was certainly codependent when I met the A. I got worse over time. I've bee in Al anon for coming up to 3/4 years now. I am better these days, cured no, but better. I continue to work on my side of the street. I find that enormously hard. My expectations are way way way way off on lots of things. Being an adult with appropriate boundaries is pretty difficult for me. I gave absolutely every ounce of energy I had to the A. I give zero now but I will be regrouping for a long time. I'm in 3 month with no substantial contact that helps a great deal. I need a few years.

I think its easy to be abstract about what it is to deal with anyone. Having just dealt with a very difficult boss eventually I got to the point where I could go no further. I don't delve into what she is, or what she did, I know how I felt, dealing with her behavior day in day out. I was glad to leave. Making leaving an option is very hard for me. I live absolutely on survival and have a very small margin to live. I go without very very basic needs in order to barely survive.

Yes I have had to certainly challenge many of my expectations and behaviors, do I get to change all of them overnight, not really. I am now into year one of having left the A, did all my problems end there, nope. I still struggle tremendously with dealing with dysfunctional people. Nevertheless for me, and I can only speak for me, removing certain people from my life did help. The two room mates who have left help tremendously for me to have a home for example. Getting to the point where they left was absolutely unmitigated hell however. I work daily, and I work by the hour on ways I never have to engage with such totally dysfunctional psycohpathic people again ever! I find that a great deterent.

I dont' think the author really addresses how worn down some of us can be by the constanct unremitting chaos an alcoholic can bring to one's life and how one can be totally consumed with worry, grief and rage about the effects of their behavior. Letting go is very difficult for some of us.

Maresie.

Lady · Veteran Member

When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed.

I believe the writer is trying to say care love and consideration of others is a normal healthy trait and something "all" can have growing with God. BUT....In an active A marriage this is not what you will find with an A....period....never.

I quit visiting the website because I grew frustrated because my situation did not seem to "track" with the general wisdom about marriages. I finally realized why, my marriage is entirely different from a marriage in which there is no substance abuse. While it may appear to share some of the same traits of a marriage plagued by "co-dependency" gone wild, but if you dig deeper, it is unlike those marriage. The same "cures" for what ails us does not necessarily apply, and that's okay. That is why I am grateful to have found Al-Anon.

SLS...Alanon is great for your personal recovery, and the Dr. guides people there. But Alanon is not marriage recovery. This is where the problem is, and what I have seen over and over. People get into AA, Alanon, get their own personal recovery/recoveries, but never get to the point of recovering the marriage nor family, which is exactly what you are saying SLS. You don't think it's possilbe for your marriage to be recovered, it's different than all others, so the attention is only on yourselves, your program, your HP.


I have seen many marriages recovered with a A spouse, on that site "discussion" area, in "General." It takes longer, it's harder and more work, but it's possible.

I remember desperately wanting my "husband" recovered and "our "marriage" recovered.....

My husband went out 2 1/2 yrs ago, relapsed, committed adultery, $100.00's of dollars gone, he then ended the relapse in the hospital. He then did it again 1 yr ago, and then moved out.  We have lived seperately for 1 yr now.    So the problem just wasn't his A. We needed marriage recovery as well. They are 2 different problems, and 2 different recoveries.

My AH never gets to the point of good recovery for himself, so how can he get to a marriage recovery. Every time he relapses, it's hell, and it takes years if ever for him to recover.  It never gets to "us."   In all my love and care for him, I got sucked into a black hole, severely wounded, exhausted and almost emotionally and financially destroyed, no car, isolated, and another child who only has a daddy 14 hrs a week, supervised visits.

I truly hate A, and I'm totally disgusted with the A's who destroy thier families in thier A.

I don't feel "sorry" for my AH, he used to be a substance abuse counselor.
There's no excuse good enough.

Lady

Lady · Veteran Member

I dont' think the author really addresses how worn down some of us can be by the constanct unremitting chaos an alcoholic can bring to one's life and how one can be totally consumed with worry, grief and rage about the effects of their behavior. Letting go is very difficult for some of us.

Hi Maresie.....Yes he does go into some detail....but here is a few more of his
articles....
What to do with an Alcoholic Spouse (this is where he speaks of Alanon as well).

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048c_qa.html

The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.

As far as my marriage goes, I prayed asking my HP for guidance, I then read that article again.
All it took was these 3 words...."run for cover."

Unfortunately Maresie... to "run for cover" is what you, I, and many others have had no choice but to do. I know it's not easy.

Blessings,
Lady

-- Edited by Lady at 12:31, 2008-02-22

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm going to preface this by saying I'm only going to share and not cross-talk in this. Take what you like and leave the rest.

When things first went sour with my AH, we both met with a marriage counselor. After one group session with him and one individual session with him, each, he had this to say:

"K, your relationship is fine. You each have individual issues you need to work out. If you continue to seek counseling as a group, all you're going to accomplish is deflecting the real issues (in the case my AH's drinking and sexual identity issues, in mine, my co-dependency issues). Group counseling is not necessary and will likely hinder progress."

Then - we actually got a SECOND opinion on this from a counselor my AH selected himself. She said the same thing after evaluating us - she recognized we each have very similar compatible goals as far as a healthy relationship goes, but that we each have individual personal issues that need to be addressed. So, AH is now seeing counselor of his choice, and I'm seeing counselor of mine - separately.

That's the thing with living with an A. Both the A and the family member try to find OTHER reasons why things are a mess instead of recognizing the A's disease and need for sobriety and the family member's need to create independence for themselves and to learn not to try to shoulder everyone's problems.

The jist of the individual counseling is to get us both to a point of where we can learn to cope with our issues in a healthy way, and in-so-doing, being happier, stronger individuals, our relationship can benefit in the long run.

I'm not seeking Al-Anon and professional counseling so I can learn how to harden myself against my AH and make myself comfortable with a divorce. I'm going to Al-Anon and seeing counseling so I can learn how to not enable my AH by wallowing in his mess, which means focusing on me and making sure I learn how to stay happy, and at the same time allowing my AH to learn how to be happy himself without depending on me or alcohol to accomplish that.

-- Edited by Aloha at 12:48, 2008-02-22

carolinagirl · ~*Service Worker*~

I thought this was good because it has been discussed several times about trusting anyone ever again after being with an A. We become so hypersensitive to behaviors almost seeking them out perhaps. I liked this because it reminds me that there are relationships out there between two normal non addicted people. Now if I could only find one to pair up with LOL. I agree that these behaviors should be examined in context and that the KEY factor should be that they are being returned by the other partner. I like the analogy of the black hole because I remember saying that to him several times, you are a black hole...everything I give is just sucked in and obliterated...I also like the author's suggestion about those in relationships with addicts/alcoholics "run for cover" LOL. That's exactly what I did and had I not, I may very well have been sucked into oblivion as well. We can give and receive love but both those aspects must be present. When the receiving end goes away our efforts are futile. I think part of the problem with this is that it is not focused at all on the dynamic of alcoholic relationships but on the opposite. I know for me the problem was that after living in the black hole environment for so long I really didn't know any better and outrageous things were accepted as normal. I guess the black hole sucks our morals out of us too until we are away from it for long enough to see what we have become?

Tiger2006 · ~*Service Worker*~

I think, for me, there is no simple issue when it comes to alcohol or treatment. That's why al anon has no opinion on outside issues. I think also one of thei things I take relief and solace in is the fact that there are others like me
I am greatful for al anon. It has saved my life. I hope, by being here, and by being present for others who are suffering, I can share my hope and give it to them.

SLS · Senior Member

Lady wrote:

SLS...Alanon is great for your personal recovery, and the Dr. guides people there. But Alanon is not marriage recovery. This is where the problem is, and what I have seen over and over. People get into AA, Alanon, get their own personal recovery/recoveries, but never get to the point of recovering the marriage nor family, which is exactly what you are saying SLS. You don't think it's possilbe for your marriage to be recovered, it's different than all others, so the attention is only on yourselves, your program, your HP.

I really try to avoid cross-talk on the board, but that is not what I am saying. I do believe that it is possible for my marriage to be recovered. However, that process could not begin (and did not) until I began to work on my own personal recovery and my sober AH did the same. We now share a common language and understanding about the disease and our individual defects of character, we have each learned communication tools that we actively use as we work through the "wreakage of the past." If we reach a roadblock in that process and it appears that we might benefit from marriage counseling, I am all for it.

As for A marriage stories--we are all the same even as we are all different.  I suffered through all of the typical things that occur in an A marriage: emotional and physical abuse, emotional, financial and physical infidelity, all of it.

I do believe that the disease was at the root of the problems--his, mine and ours. As for his "side of the street," the disease affects all aspects of the A's emotional, psychological and spiritual development. Once alcohol was removed from the equation, he was merely a sober A--with the maturity level of a teenager. He still had all of the defects of character that he had when he was drinking. As such, many of his behaviors continued for about 9 months until he began working a solid program of personal recovery. Now, at almost 3 years sober, he is a very different person and there have been alot of miracles along the way. But, he is still working and changing and aboveall, he is still human. He may engage in those behaviors again--there are no guarantees and he is responsible for the choices he makes, especially now that he is actually making choices. If he does, though, I know that I am a different person now because of my own personal recovery.  I have faith in myself that I won't accept those behaviors or respond to them as I once did.

Just my E, S & H.

drucilla06 · Senior Member

HI, Lady, and welcome to MIP.

Here's my two cents for what it's worth.

I have always been torn about whether my 'codependent' behavior is a good trait or a bad one.In addition to Alanon, I have been listening to a particular preacher and trying to read the Bible.My 'hp' is God.So on one side I am told to 'put myself first','take care of ME',detach,let them feel the consequences of their actions,etc.On the other side I am told to wake up every day and ask God what I can do for someone else.Look for someone who needs help and do what I can.I used to think,what am I supposed to do? If I give I am told I am codependent,that I give too much.If I don't give,God will be unhappy with me,I am selfish.

The article (and Alanon) makes it very clear that the difference is who I am giving to.Addicts and alcoholics,anyone who is dependent on a substance,is extremely needy because they give up everything for their fix.They attract the most loving and giving people,which would seem to be a natural thing.We want to give,they are needy.That's different from the type of giving Mother Theresa gave! She gave to the poor.The truly needy.Not people who 'sucked the life' out of her.I am quite sure,from some of her writings,she had a self.

So, I just choose the wrong people to give to, but my loving and giving nature is a good thing.I like that about me.I do not want to become distant and cold,self centered.I doubt that I could anyway.

It's a fine line we who love addicts have to walk.Give...but not too much.Detach...but with love.It takes time to find that balance.If you choose to stay with the addicted person,for whatever reason, you will have to learn to walk that line to have any serenity and peace in your life.Some choose to 'run for cover' and that may be the best choice for some.

Personally, I want a marriage with a 'normal' person.Someone NOT addicted to a substance.Maybe someone like me,loving and giving.I envy the writer's wife,she has a great guy, it seems.I can be like him.I would like to have a life partner like him.

I am glad you posted this.It reminds me that I am OK.It's ok to be giving.It's not a character defect.I agree with the writer that the codependency traits do not apply to 'regular' marriages,just the ones where one person is sick and drags the other (who willingly goes) to the bottom.THAT'S a problem.Giving in healthy relationships,even putting yourself last at times, is a good thing.

Besides,the very word 'co-dependent' implies addiction or dependence.If that is not present in the marriage,how can the spouse be CO- dependent?

Dru

newday · Veteran Member

Lady,

Thanks for sharing the article. I learned a great deal as it applies to my own situation. I come from a background of successful relationships. My grandparents have been married 70 years, my parents 46, yet I am divorced. I was married to an A, engaged to another A and the article definitely made light of my situation.

Successful marriage is a constant work in progress. My parents and grandparents aren't special or perfect! But add addiction to the mix, both people are on different playing fields. Equally yolked is best.

But I feel Alanon is a great tool for those who don't want to throw in the towel. It offers the chance of serenity, without divorce. I think if I knew Alanon during my marriage, I may still be with my Ex-husband...but reality is, if I knew Alanon before I met him...I would have never married him.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.