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I was just reading the post about dry drunks and it all being the disease. So now I have been mulling that around for a moment and find it very interesting. One of you said that drinking or not it's the disease, so what exactly is this disease. The more I think about it and watch A's and read about others' experiences, the more I think this is not so much a physical disease as it is a mental disease or even a personality disorder. They have medications for those... Well some of them anyway. When I think disease I think virus, something that lives in the body, a living thing causing physical damage to us. When I think of mental health, I think more in terms of disorder, something chemically not going right in the brain, flawed thinking patterns, etc.
It's difficult to grasp that this is a disease, like the flu or a cold. I'm pretty sure I can't catch it or I would have had it by now! I find myself thinking more along the line that it is a personality disorder, almost a selfishness disorder or immaturity and refusal to grow up disorder with a dash of manipulation for self survival.
Diabetes is a disease, if I had it I would make myself sicker by eating certain foods. I choose whether I eat those foods or not, maybe I'm a sugar addict. If I eat a certain way for long enough the diabetes can potentially go away but I have to have the maturity and self responsibility to commit to that diet long term. This is the heart of the problem for me is that it ultimately comes back to the individual and their own self responsibility and the disease is self induced.
I have a hard time explaining away selfish, destructive not just to self but family too, irresponsible behavior as it's the disease. My A always liked that excuse it's a disease I can't help the fact that I disappear for days at a time and spend thousands of dollars! The person ultimately makes the choice every time to use or not. Some people have the disease and change their behavior and never use again but it's the behavior that is the issue, it's as if the drinking is just a symptom of the larger behavior and we can all make a list that every single one of us would agree are the specific behaviors that 99.9% of all alcoholics and addicts display.
Complete self centeredness Refusal to accept responsibilities or consequences as their doing Pleasure seeking all the time Completely unconcerned for the feelings of others Charming and able to manipulate quickly and easily Habitual Liars
It's almost like a chicken and egg question, are the behaviors what cause the drinking or does the drinking cause the behaviors? I know living with an alcoholic changed my thinking and behaviors until I got myself back to a healthy place and I know for sure my disease was a thinking disorder, once I changed my thinking everything else followed.
By the way...Still smoke free and it's been over a month now!
It is a disease just like many others. They are BORN with dna that has markers that predispose them to being an addict. There are more than one markers to. The more you have, the better chance you get to being A.
No different than Downs Syndrome, different cancers, etc. We are learning more and more about Genetics and OMG is is scarey.
Very serious stuff. There are also people as you say, that have Addict behavior trying to medicate another disease. It is physical, mental and emotional.
The difference is as you said. For instance Depression. They use to mediate, to try to feel better, or just want to "change" how they feel. They become dependant on this drug, the drug affects them emotionally also.
So lets say they go to detox,(takes care of the physical dependense) come home, and go to their doctor, refers them to a Psychiatrist who prescribes the correct meds. Which in time gets the mental problem in order, has him come in for counseling, helps him to deal with life, which helps the emotional.
The AA program would still help them. However they will not get that horrible urge that they HAVE to use like people who have the genetic predisposition.
Same as some obese people. NOW they are seeing genetics plays a HUGE roll in that. Well duh, look at families, usually they all resemble each other...
Anyway I hope this helps. You are very wise and sure have gotten you on a good path.
I can totally relate.. when I first came in these rooms the idea that it was a disease just seemed imposible... I felt like if they knew they had a disease why do they not take care of them selves...
I do know because of this program that the AMA has declared Alcoholism and addiction as a disease... and a couple years ago they have actually found the gene that affects that in a person... to they have a treatment.. not yet.. that is years away.. and maybe never.. somethings we just do not have the power to minipulate.. . only our HP's can do that...
But what I have learned from the program and some internet research... is the disease distorts their thinking processes... and most of the time they are looking for excuses to continue what they do.. that is why many have been know to pick a fight with their significant other so to justify or have an excuse for the drinking and behavior.. we made them do it... if we really had that power we could make the stop... and if they accept it is a disease without wanting to get better.. then that is just another excuse for them...
Here is how I understand the dry drunk....
A person can be considered a dry drunk from two different situations... one is they grow up in an alcoholic home/family... like I did.. no recovery in site.. and the other is when the A just stops drinking but does not go into recovery and/or deal with the issues created in themselves by the disease... so even not drinking and/or never taken a drink they still act like they did... mainly out of habbit, learned behaviors and not knowing another way to live...
Because these learned behaviors exist.... they have to be unlearned to get healthy.. most people can not change without help.. and that is where the 12 step programs help.. it helps you get the focus on yourself and deal with your own issues.. accept responisibility for your part in everything... and learn new behaviors to replace the ones we need to change to have a healthier life...
and in many cases.. like mine.. you need therapy also... for me I did individual therapy... group therapy.. and Alanon to start getting my thinking in the right direction... and proud to say after 4 years.. I think I have taken at least one step towards a healthier life...
But something I have really comes to terms with since the death of my son last month (he was an A/addict)... is that I can finally see it is a disease.. and until they want help... and/or hit some type of bottom they are not going to change.. but cause that bottom forces them to face reality today... it can be very painful.... for my son his choice to end his life instead of reaching out for help... I can not change that anymore than I could change the fact he was sick and would not accept it...
and it has helped me to start looking at other A/addicts in my life with a bit more compassion... and realize how sick they really are... and they do not have real control over their actions.. the brain does not think clearly because of it...
I hope this gives you new way of looking at it....
CG, I have a very difficult time accepting that alcoholism is a disease. We all have dna markers that affect us in different ways. But dna markers don't all equal disease. Now.....I am not saying alcoholism is NOT a disease, just that I have a hard time understanding why it is. I know it is insidious, often proves fatal, and all of that. Smoking is not a disease, it is an addiction. I can't come to the point where I see the difference. I do try to listen to those who point out why it is...*sigh*...maybe one day, I'll get it.
Love to ya,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I think these are great questions, very eloquently stated, and are going to form the basis of someone's master's thesis one day.
I agree that in many ways it's a thinking and behaviour disorder, and as such relates strongly to learned behaviour. Think of how Alanon seems like a "foreign language" to so many of us when we start. To me, that's not because we're dumb, or even sick, it's because we've never (or rarely) been exposed to this kind of thinking, this way of looking at the world. So experiencing new behaviours in the forum of alanon leads to us then practicing the new behaviours and gradually learning a new way - yet since we learned the old ways as a core part of our growing up, we may not always practice the new ways - especially if we experience someone ELSE's behaviour that was, in the past, linked to an old behaviour of our own. In other words, if we experience only new behaviours, it's relatively easy to respond with all new behaviours - but who gets to do that? It's just not real life.
For the alcoholic, they have the ADDED problem of the physical compulsion to drink. I'm not sure it's possible for a non-a to really understand that part of it. I do know that what they say in AA is that when you quit drinking, that doesn't mean your brain is in a place where it can think coherently - in fact they say it takes YEARS to get to that place, though improvements may start right away. Again, it depends how long they've been drinking, how much, what kind - and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that there's a part of it that relates to "how badly" they have the disease. Like Downs - we know that what "causes" Downs is one chromosome out of place, and yet people with that chromosome out of place have a widely varying degree of what we call "impairment" to both physical and mental function. Similarly, whatever it is that "causes" alcoholism may well, it seems to me, have a wide variety of expressions that range from mild to severe.
What helped me a lot in understanding alcoholism as a disease was, first, to read the Big Book of AA, starting with the "Doctor's Opinion" which is one of the introductions. Secondly, one of my A's therapists sent him home with some information on THQ (tetrahydroisoquinolone). This substance builds up in the brain of those we call "alcoholics", but not in the brain of a "non-alcoholics", because of actual physical differences in the way the body processes alcohol. Interestingly, this is the SAME substance that builds up in the brains of heroin users (a fact which was stumbled across accidentally). I googled this and found lots of really interesting material (along with some medicalese gobbledygook, so don't be put off).
It seems to me, though I haven't seen any research on this aspect, that one added difficulty even the sober alcoholic has is that he or she has that built-up THQ in their brain. I wonder whether somehow stimulating this THQ is somehow responsible for the "dry drunks". I also wonder whether there's a strong component of nutrition and endocrine balance for the alcoholic - this might explain the idea I've run across a couple of times, that alcoholics can actually do better if they eat a certain way than if they don't. (One facility actually claimed much higher than average success rates for long-term (one-year, I think for the purposes of their report) sobriety, which they said was due to the nutrition part of their program. Unfortunately I can't remember enough about how I got to their site or what the details were to get back there - maybe you'll find it.)
Some feel that all this reading about the disease is "not focusing on myself", but for me, this was the part of "understanding our alcoholic relatives" that I needed to do, and it helped me get to a place where I COULD say, ok, I get that now, to some extent at least, and now I CAN leave that be, and work on me.
I guess the real issue is why would I choose to stay with someone who treats me bad for so long? Does it really matter whether he is an addict, an alcoholic, a cancer patient, a diabetic? WE are all dying slowly every day in our own way and we only get to live once as far as I know to this point so why waste my precious moments being with a person who acts like an Ahole no matter what their excuse? I mean really, does it really matter if someone is a diabetic if they treat you like crap? We all choose how we behave and how we treat others and the details are all academic, like you said a master's thesis... The reality is that it doesn't matter why, it's the day to day choices of tolerating unacceptable behavior or not. I mean if you were single and just met a guy (or girl;) on the street and (s)he called you a B****, slept with your friend, stole all your money, lied to you about the whole thing and then tried to lay a guilt trip on you about it being your fault somehow would you invite him/her back tomorrow for some more?
Exactly. And it seems to me that many of us were brought up to accept unacceptable behaviour (from our own parents)(who, of course, we also naturally wanted to love us in a healthy way, not that we knew what that looked like), to not recognize or honor our own feelings ("you don't really feel that way"), to be enmeshed rather than detached (if you are unhappy I am unhappy too).
Asking "why would we put up with this?", and describing the factual insanity of it all, and not escaping into "because I love them", is I think a very alanon question. It's a result of learning we have options, and what some of the options we never saw are. The very fact that you're asking it shows, I think, how far you've come.
I totally agree with Debilyn. I think you are definately born with it. Here is my reasoning.
I grew up with an A father. I am not an A but I have an addiction to food. I can visualize what my father went through when I am not able to say no to that first compulsive bite. I do not want to eat that piece of cake but I have to...unless I am strong enough at the time to pray for my HP to take the craving away. I will always eat the piece of cake unless the craving disappears. I cannot do it on my own. It has to come from my HP. I don't know if my father ever had a HP but he was never in a program of recovery. Basically, he was a hopeless A a counselor once told us.
I have 3 sisters and one brother. We all have addictions of some kind. We all have food addiction and some have alcohol and drugs. My first husband, who I was married to for less than 2 years was a horrible A...so was his father. My husband now, that I have been married to for almost 34 years is not an A but both of his parents were. He adopted my 1st son at a very young age. Basically, you could say that 1st son did not grow up in an A family but his bio dad was the A. My younger son is an A too. He grew up in the same family without any alcoholics. However, they both grew up with a mother with food addiction. I do not believe that it is a learned behavior but a biochemical problem. I think when you are born with this brain chemistry your thinking is not normal and as time goes on the addiction behavior takes on a life of its own. An example of this is my younger son (now 32) was diagnosed with ADHD when he was young. His psychologist said that his compulsive behavior caused so many problems because all he got was negative attention and developed very low self esteem.
You know...I probably would not choose to stay with an A because I didn't with my first marriage. Even at a very young age of 19 I could see the life my mother had and she had 5 kids. I only had one and thought it better to get out quickly. However, I can never leave my sons. They are part of me. I cannot say that about my husband. No matter how bad it gets with my sons I will always be there for them because (I know that I might get flack back on this) I do not believe that it is their fault either. I believe they have a disease of addiction like their mother.
I am 54 years old and have been in therapy for many years for my food addiction. I was also in Overeaters Anonymous for many years. I have never been in real recovery. Just 2 months ago I had gastric bypass surgery because Of the depression and health issues I have had over my weight. I have a tool now to lose the weight but will probably need therapy for the rest of my life. The surgery does not change your brain chemistry. I wish there was a surgery for the A.
I at this point am not quite sure how I feel about labelling this a disease. I do know this. If my A had a treatable form of cancer, chose not to get treatment, became an abusive ass, squandered thousands of dollars it would not matter that they had cancer. You have a disease, treatment is offered, it is up to the individual what they do with it. lilms
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Two things: 1. Recovery is a process, not an event.....and.... 2. You only get to go around once. Leave em laughing and make it worth your while
I don't know CG, right this minute I could care less if it's a disease, a choice, or some evil demon controling them from a perch below the world. I used to think of it as a virus because I did catch it. I didn't drink or drug but I was sicker with it than he was. And there was no cure for me either. I tried a pill and it didn't work, the only thing that seems to be working is time and comming here to take care of myself.
There have been moments when I understood so clearly that is a disease. When I saw my ex in the climax of a binge and I saw with my own eyes that there was no choice within him, he was completly driven by the disease. He had no choice to stop at that point, his decision to stop was out of his hands. And I knew at that one moment in time, all he wanted to do was stop, he wanted that with his whole heart and soul and he couldn't. Eventually, he did but the damage was done. HE got sober, then took his will back and became un-sober. Not using but not living a real life. He is sick. He has way more than addiction going on. I don't know many who don't. In fact I have met very few AA's who are simply A's. The ones I have met seem to have long term sobriety and a very good life. Maybe that is alcoholism uncomplicated by other mental illnesses, I don't know.
So, I understand that it is a disease. A very NASTY disease unlike any other disease. I believe it is contagious because it is a family disease. I pray that it does not repeat in my children but if it does, I know that I didn't cause it, can't cure it and can't control it even for my beautiful children. As they have been raised almost from birth with both programs they have knowledge of what this disease is, will it be enough to protect them? Depends I guess.
It is not an excuse, this disease model. It is simply a fact. Most people would think "oh I have a disease and there is a proven way to get better. It will benefit me and my family? Sign me UP!" But then they wouldn't be alcoholic, they would be alanon! LOL!
My ex, disease or not is an evil prick. He was sober, drunk, high, whatever he sucks. I am becomming the person I always wanted to be, screw him! LOL! Little residual anger there I guess, excuse me......
Great posts... it's a topic I've discussed many times with friends.
This is slightly off topic but someone recently told me that an alcoholic can qualify for disability benefits. I'm not sure if it's true or not, just wondering if anyone else is aware of this. I find this hard to accept. I still believe that getting sober or staying drunk is a choice... disease or not.
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Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it is about learning to dance in the rain.
If you look at my post I did not say aism is the disease. I said ADDICTION is what is being layed out in genetic codes.
This is fact, documented fact.
As far as they have a choice,sure they do, however they cannot control when they are READY to make that choice!!
Many tell you they WANT to quit! My A told me himself it was easier to keep using than to get back to AA and all that. Well of course when his disease has a way of manipulating weak sick women to take care of him!
I know it is so dang hard to accept. I tell ya I would not accept it either but when I was in the latter parts of college I actually SAW how it all fits together.
Hey I will tell ya too, if you have not really got into Aids facts, if you did, it would be sooo easy for you to see what makes it almost impossible to stop. Just like the cold virus.
I agree too, we are here to make a choice, can we live with it for whatever reason it is!!?? I mean geez, abuse is abuse. I used the analogy that if the A stabs you with a knife or an non A stabs you with a knife, it hurts the same!! The reason does not matter.
I found the insanity of them being one person, then use and be the opposite was what drove me nuts. Then I learned to accept him as is. Period. NOt even looking at his disease. Looking at him as someone I cared about very much, a very sick person.
If my A was not abusive, I would still want him here. But sadly after the brain surgery he became horribly violent.
Genetics tell us our eye color, hair color, if we will get a certain kind of breast cancer, zillions of things.
It blew me away to learn just the tiny amount I did.
love,debilyn and sadly our piggy there, Ghost passed on. He was a KuneKune pig.
"The disease model has been so profitable and politically successful that it has spread to include problems of eating, child abuse, gambling, shopping, premenstrual tension, compulsive love affairs, and almost every other form of self-destructive behavior... From this perspective, nearly every American can be said to have a disease of addiction."
From Christy's link. There are other good arguments FOR disease on that site too. I just thought this was interesting I know I have at least 2.
I guess the real issue is why would I choose to stay with someone who treats me bad for so long? Does it really matter whether he is an addict, an alcoholic, a cancer patient, a diabetic? WE are all dying slowly every day in our own way and we only get to live once as far as I know to this point so why waste my precious moments being with a person who acts like an Ahole no matter what their excuse? I mean really, does it really matter if someone is a diabetic if they treat you like crap? We all choose how we behave and how we treat others and the details are all academic, like you said a master's thesis... The reality is that it doesn't matter why, it's the day to day choices of tolerating unacceptable behavior or not. I mean if you were single and just met a guy (or girl;) on the street and (s)he called you a B****, slept with your friend, stole all your money, lied to you about the whole thing and then tried to lay a guilt trip on you about it being your fault somehow would you invite him/her back tomorrow for some more?
Very well said! And I even got a chuckle out of it (oh the insanity of aism!!!). Thanks!!!
This string is an excellent example of why I love this site!!! Just look at all the incredible intelligence and feelings wonderfully articulated for the whole freaking world to read, FREE. Love this. Thank you. Thank god I found this place. J.
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
I know I could write a couple of books about the A and his behavior. But for me its important to focus on me. What happens for me when I am around an active alcoholic. I have been feeling very lonely lately. I met someone who was at a loose end too. Eventually after some conversations it came out most of his life is centered around bars. I could in my "disease" justify hanging around with someone like that. I am alone, I have no one to fall back on. I have few friends. I could stand on my head with all the justifications. I could say I don't want to judge, I am lonely blah blah. I need this and that. I now full well after decades of being around those with addiction(s) that someone whose whole life is around a bar can give me "nothing". I can also come up with all these lists of stuff of what "could" happen.
For once I went with my recovery. I didn't read this friend a riot act, I didn't even meniton they had an issue. I just let go. I know they can't give me anything in the long run. So I let go.
I find it super super hard to let go. I want to fix, contront, fix, make do, excuse, sit with, make an issue of those who can't give me anything. I want to be with them in the worst possible way. I think this is because it is so so so familiar to me to not ever get my needs met in relationship. I know how to do that. I don't really know how to stand with myself and go after having my needs met at all. That is indeed what is incredily foreign to me.
I absolutely believe it's a disease. Know anyone who wants to grow up and be an addict? In hubby's case, he has a chemical inbalance which leads to super anxiety, spinning thoughts, as well as a host of other problems. One of the reasons he drinks is to stop these spinning thoughts, etc. Yes he has medication, but the problem is that over time, the effectiveness lessens over time. So you have keep tweaking them. This is the difficulty we are facing now. I have in fact okayed him to have a few sips of alcohol in order to stop this. I know this seems like enabling, but I refuse to watch the man suffer. We have a new psychaitrist who wants to get rid of his old meds and start new ones. We agreed that we would start that after the holidays. He doesn't want to feel awful when he spends 3 weeks with his grandkids. Trust me when I tell you, it takes him a long time to start that first drink. He also doesn't finish the whole bottle. He doesn't like it anymore than I do. He also doesn't do it everyday. This is certainly NOT a long term solution for his situation. But right now, it's all we have. Increasing the dosage of the other pills may not work. We've tried that.
The problem is that there are some in the medical community as well as the public in general that don't accept it as a disease. That leads to lack of funding in research which could benefit millions. What is it that's in the alcohol that can calm my AH down and stop the thoughts? It's not about getting drunk, it's about trying to stop the brain from going crazy. The other problem is that this disease is CLOSELY linked to behavior. As an anthropologist, I understand human behavior. But as someone who has been adversly affected by this disease, sometimes it's hard to get my head around it. I look at it somewhat as someone who is diabetic. Left untreated without medication and making proper choices, it can be fatal. But treated with medication and the proper behavior (ie. diet, exercise, etc.) it can be controlled. However, I don't know any diabetic who can't give up the sweets, etc. Their body/brain isn't craving it. Their brain isn't going nuts with anxiety, etc. Their diabetes wasn't a result of running away from behaviors (abuse, etc). I don't know a diabetic who ate so much whatever in order to stop feeling bad. To pass out from the physical and emotional pain. Nobody chooses to be a diabetic or an addict. Unfortunately our bodies are all different. Something triggers something in our bodies to produce cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure and yes addiction. That's why it's a cunning, powerful, baffling disease. That's why people can relapse after 30 years of sobriety and never come back from it.
Love and blessings to you and your family. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Claus
-- Edited by Karilynn at 05:43, 2007-12-15
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
and if they accept it is a disease without wanting to get better.. then that is just another excuse for them... 
