Al-Anon Family Group

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Trust... .


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 56
Date:
Trust... .


Not sure how to start or word this so going to just write what come in my head and hopefully anyone who reads can make sence of it...

First let me say that I have been in program for just over 4 years now... and have heard some things like this over time but never experienced myself till this week...

I have been going to a few meetings each week and there is one lady there I met seveal years ago that is a sponsor to a large number of women... and I know that everyone works their program their way....

Well I met a young lady at one of the meetings..  and we starting going to meetings together.. and we have now been living together for a couple of months....  and she is one of the sponsees of the lady I mentioned above..

Well over the last couple months I have found out some things...  like one of my male friends at my home group was also dating one of her sponsees... and she started telling the sponsee that he was not good enough for her (he is a double winner).. and that she was making the biggest mistake of her life...  then when the sponsee asked her to be her maid of honor for their weeking.. she agreed as long as the colors for the wedding went with something she already had to wear...  so they changed the colors for the wedding to fit her.. because she really wanted her sponsor to be there..  well about a week before the wedding she calls the girl and tells her that god told her that she could not be part of this disaster of a wedding and would not be there...  needless to say it devistated my friends fiancee....  but the wedding went on and happily things are going great for them....

and to top it all off...  when his wife would not return her calls after she told her she was going to find a new sponsor..  she started getting her sponsees to call and harrash her.. matter of fact there were several of her sponsees that were supposted to be at the weeking..  friends of his also..  they did not attend because the sponsor told them it was wrong to go and support this disaster...

and just another side note..  there were things that the two of them shared at our home group and no where else.. that the sponsor knew about..  seems that the sponsees at our home group was being her eyes and ears to keep an eye on her and report in to the sponsor on anything person the two of them shared... so much for keep it in the wall of this room....

ok.. ok.. now getting to more of me..  and yes I told you about that to explain part of what is going on with me now...

Well when my girl friend and I first started dating she told her sponsor about it.. and her and I had always gotten along.. . she told her that I worked a good program and as long as we kept working our program she thought it was a good thing...

Well I found out this week that her sponsor has been telling people that I am minipulating my girlfriend.. and keeping her from sharing at meetings and coming to meetings...   I found out from a mutual friend that she told...  and more that one person has been told this by her..

I have not shared this with my girlfriend yet..  but I have shared all of the other things.. and I know that she likes this lady.. and she had not done any of it with her.. that she is aware of...  but because of what I have found out and disccused with her..  she has her doubts about her sponsor... and that is not what I meant to do....  in reallity all I thought I was doing at the time was keeping honesty with my girlfriend..  when I found out something that I felt she should be aware of.. .  I told her...  maybe was wrong on my part.. and guess I will learn from my mistakes...

So what am I asking... 

I am still up in the air of how to tell my girlfriend about it..  I think she needs to know..  but is it really my place to do that and hurt the relationship with her sponsor even more...

I am debating on confrunting this lady..  or just dropping it...  and of course I am not going to the meetings she is at.. and there are people I only see there...  but of course there are meetings that her sponsees are at... and I have to wonder are they doing the same thing to me that they were doing to my friend and his fiancee...

I was really trying to keep principles above personalities.. . but this has become more difficult not that I am being attacked... 

My girlfriend has really been thru a lot these last couple months..  she had a reaction to the anti-depression meds they had her on that made her suicidal... she is dealing with the loss of her own son a couple years ago.. and of course the death of my own son last month brought up a lot of issues for her again...  and since they got her meds straightened out she is starting to think clearer and feel those emotions we all feel as we start working our program..  they can be overwelming...

has anyone been thru anything like this... and can share how they handled it I would really appreciate it...

Thanks,

Bob

aka..  NightWatcher



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 472
Date:

Many of us are control freaks, and for some the program itself becomes an outlet for exercising that control.  But there is no step that says, "Having had a spiritual awakening, we took charge and sought to enlighten everyone else with our own greatness".

I have never been a believer in so-called "nazi sponsorship".  I haven't had a hard-core sponsor, and I haven't been a hard-core sponsor.  But I realize they are out there, and many are very respected by their sponsees and others in the program.  But there are also hard core sponsors who go beyond the program and get far too involved in the lives of their sponsees.  Which is what sounds like is happening here.

I think everyone involved could benefit from a third (or fourth) party perspective, but that would mean becoming open about what's going on and talking about it.

The Alanon groups I have belonged to have been large enough to avoid being dominated by one or two people.  Certainly there have been attempts, but this has been dealt with on a group conscience level.  Of course what transpires between members/sponsors/sponsees outside of the meeting rooms is outside the scope of the group conscience, and for that reason I've always remained very much "at large" within the program.  Sure, I have had my cliques of friends - moreso in AA than Alanon - but early on I saw some "follow the leader" cliques around certain people.  I found it was possible to learn from these people without becoming one of their minions.  And I think most people eventually do learn this.

I think also part of the problem is that very active people in any volunteer organization are very much appreciated because of the work they do, and are given perhaps some undeserved authority -- or at least they perceive it that way.  If this continues to its conclusion, the person is eventually going to step out of line.  And perhaps may feel very hurt and rejected if they are confronted about their controlling behavior -- they may leave and never come back, or they may just go start fresh somewhere else.

Either way, it's my opinion than dominance from any human being or group of human beings is ultimately destructive.  My anti-authority stripes are showing... but for the most part our 12-step programs are free-form, conscious democracies.  Authority is truly something given - temporarily and with obligation - by the group.  Probably why I'm very much at home in AA and Alanon.  Dominant and controlling behavior by an individual is usually short lived, and quite often can be diffused by a good talking-to, and maybe even the culprit themselves can have a laugh over it.

I guess the bottom line is, if I feel that a meeting or group I'm involved in has become dominated by an individual or small clique of individuals with an agenda, and I don't feel comfortable in that space - I will find another group.

Barisax


__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 2962
Date:

If you are okay with what/how you are doing, and your girlfriend is okay with what/how you are doing... .then the thought that comes to my mind from your post is:

"what you think of me is none of my business" 

Who cares what this other person may or may not be saying?  It may be true, or it may be a lot of rumor and innuendo....  If you feel the need to confront this person, then it may be beneficial, but sometimes we simply need to live our lives, and let our daily actions be our proof to the world around us....

Just my two cents
T

__________________

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

"What you think of me is none of my business"

"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"

 

 

 

 

Jen


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 1242
Date:

We have had similar experience with a local H&W (AA&Alanon) team. They were hurtful to us recently (about 4-5 months ago) when they were supposedly setting up a volunteer effort (and collecting money) to help us with some badly needed repairs on the "house" we live in. My AH and I did not pick either of these 2 for our sponsors and when they found out he was not sober, even though huge progress had been made, the offers for help suddenly dried up. And of course the huge guilt trip was thrown at my AH. My AH was still in program, doing his best at the time.

I felt horribly used and betrayed. They knew we were both still attending meetings and that we were separated, but trying to work it out. I felt like I had just had the wind knocked out of me by another d*** alcoholic. I was very angry with them for trying to manipulate my A's sobriety, which was so against the program that these people were teaching us.

Now we are dealing with another issue with the same A.(see my previous post)

What I am learning from all this though...
1. I don't need these people to fix my house.
2. They do not have near as much authority as they dream they have.
3. My AH and I can circle the wagons and protect ourselves when we need to just by ignoring them. They can spread rumors if they wish, it doesn't affect me. They can spout lies, I can tell the truth and ignore them. They can try to manipulate the program, I can quote the 12&12.
4. I do not have to confront them, if I don't think it would be productive.
5. I'm not the only one who sees them for this. People are really not stupid.
6. I can encourage honesty by all and have faith in the rest of our members working thier programs and seeing through this manipulation.
7. I can ignore them.
8. I can ignore them.
9. I can ignore them.
10. I can feel sorry that they are so sick and can't seem to lift themselves clear of the chaos in their minds.

Sooo... Just know that you are not alone. These things do happen although I think they are not pervasive enough to get in the way of most peoples recovery. Just look at the lessons you can learn and try to stay possitive and have faith that it will work out.

In recovery,

__________________

~Jen~

"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 472
Date:

I think sometimes when people in AA and/or Alanon become husband and wife, or maybe if they already are, they feed on each others' ego and invent their own program.

I know of a couple that pulled some s*** quite a few years ago that still blows my mind.  Blows my mind they did it, saw nothing wrong with it, and to this day act as if nothing happened.  One reason may be that the "victim" of their s*** wasn't exactly well-liked either.   This was so long ago, many who remember it have passed on.  I still have to put up with 1/2 of this couple on a regular basis... and all I've been able to do is pray for him.  I've composed a number of smug and sarcastic things to say, but maybe my prayers have at least kept me from acting on those thoughts, even if I still hold this person in low regard.  I guess I can smugly remind myself is that each day he wakes up in his own skin and has to live life as himself, is punishment enough.  I
more or less let go of my past resentments, but now it seems like on a fairly regular basis, I'm treated to another weenie-waving from this belicose blowhard.  The funny thing is, he'll readily admit that he's a jackass - but he thinks of himself as an irreverent, funny-guy jackass.  He's just a jackass.

Barisax

__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 707
Date:

(((((((((((Bob)))))))))))))))),
I don't have any esh for you really. But I can and will send you a huge cyber alahug.
Mandy


__________________

"We are not punished for our unforgiveness, we are punished by it" Jim Stovall

God is seldom early, but he is never late.



~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 1917
Date:

Nightwatcher, thanks for your post. I just completed an al-anon assembly (not my first) and realized that I am not cut out for service work on that level for many of the reasons that various people have talked about in their posts here on this string. My experience is that the further "up" you go, you are really moving into a hierarchy which despite anyones good intentions is still just that: a hierarchy. Which means that power is managed and there are ones who have some power and ones who do not: power relationships exists everywhere and al-anon is no exception despite the attempts many make to deny this. I think the founders knew this which is why it is set up to diffuse as much of that as possible but nonetheless, it is still there.

One of the main reasons we are in recovery is because we struggle with control issues. It is massively obvious when one attends one of these larger assemblies. This can be a good and bad to see- for one thing it makes me look like a walk in the park compared to others but in addition I get to get bigger than my britches, too, by making note of that!!!! What I am saying is that you are not alone in trying to figure these kinds of complications out, they are being played out all over the place in al-anon.

Just hearing you talk about those who "work good program" and those who don't made me cringe. That anyone can make that judgement is ugly.

I am struggling with sponsorship myself right now because a.) I need and want some nazi-ish discipline but b.) I need it to be simple and direct and to the point/by the book as opposed to highly personal, long-winded, judgemental, cloying, etc. This combo is very hard to find (especially in women, I am sorry to say). Its like locating a guru but they say when the guru comes that is when you will be ready for her/him and not a moment sooner.

All you can do is focus and work on yourself. You cannot help your girlfriend. If you feel you need to tell her somethings go through THINK: is what you have to say Thoughtful, Honest, Intelligent, Necessary, Kind. if it fits into all of these, then its probably Ok to go ahead and say it.

I wonder what your sponsor has to say about your situation?

I would try going to a completely different group and see how you feel there- is there a noticeable difference from your experience at your home group/usual bunch of groups? What does the difference seem like to you, if there is one?

You need to do what is best for you- that is your one and only concern- not anyone else.



-- Edited by Jean4444 at 18:40, 2007-12-11

__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 4578
Date:

this reminds me so much of so much of my work in groups.  I get settled on a group of people and someone somehow does something that sets me off.  I've been in lots of group and over involvement and "splitting" seems to happen a lot.  Currently one of my housemates has not spoken to me for over 10 days. I could take it incredibly personally.  I don't.  I have to look at my own impules. When I am up there wanting to confront what's it all about. I certainly can't control my housemate. To say I am disappointed is true. Do I need a world war III I don't think so. I can go merrily on my way if she doesn't speak to me. I don't need to enquire about her welfare. She chooses to speak to someone else in the house I do not need to focus on that. I would like to. I know how to do that.  To focus on me and what comes up for me is huge.  Would I normally make this a huge dramarama. Of course. That's what I have always dones.

For me personally learning who I can trust and count on is such a huge issue.  Clearly I can't trust my housemate. I have no doubt she's done the shut down number all her life and it works for her on some levels. She certainly gets a lot of attention around it. Do I need to give her some. Not really. Do I need to invest further in the relationship. I think not. Can I make it a huge drama. Certainly I know how to do that.

If I were to detach and refocus on myself that would be a different story.

As someone who's had more than my share of sponsors sometimes I thnk when the relationship doesn't go further its a learning experience. Of course you would like your "friend" to be protected but we can't protect people from the inevitable.  Do you need to step in and tell them well that's another story.  As a unrecovered codependent I want to fix the world.  As a recovery codependent I try to fix me first and sometimes fo rme that's about just processing what I feel. Do i feel betrayed by my housemate.  Yep.  Is it world war III nope. 

The very hard part for me is to not make it a huge huge drama and be triggered every second of the day.  I know how to do that.  Another hard part is to process my dispappintment grief and more.  At the same time I know many many many people give me cues about their behavior. I know my housemate has cut off many many people. Some people really talk a great talk, do they walk it.  Not everyone does. Dod I need ot fix them and put them right personally.  I think not, very very rarely do I need to invest my entire life experience in fixing anyone.

This program is such hard work.  For me acting different from what I've always known is venturing into very very foreign territory.  Drama is what I know, processing my feelings calmly and with dignitty is not something I have that much experience in. I know where drama got me and i'm willing these days to go a different route.


maresie.

__________________
maresie


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 2287
Date:

Lots of good stuff been said here already (especially: "if it's not working for you, find another group")  but just wanted to say one thing to help keep it in perspective.  If these were all perfectly healthy people, they wouldn't be in a 12 step group in the first place.  We're all here because we've got problems, and sometimes those problems manifest.  Not good, but that's the way life works.  You either ignore it, get away from it, or confront it, depending on what is best for you.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 56
Date:

Thanks all for your comments.. and ES&H....

a couple of comments to some of the questions and coments posted....

as far as talking to my sponsor.. I did.. you see the friend I mentioned in the orginal post.. that is my sponsor... was basically his answer was to stop going to meetings that her or her sponsees are at.. and if one or the other happens to show up at a meeting he is at.. he will not share and/or keep it as general and basic as possible... which means we do not see each other as much as some of her sponsees are in our home group..  and he has not been back to that meeting since his wedding...

the funny thing was when I found out what he was doing about not going to meetings... I reminded him about keeping principles above personallities....  Interesting I did not remember that when it started happening to me....  and how it seemed to start shortly after she found out he and I were such good friends... but I am "sure" that it had nothing to do with it... smile

even before reading any of the response here this morning.. last night I decided to talk to my girlfriend about the situation...

She let me know when I got home that she had decided she needed a different sponsor... she had her own reasons and assurd me that it had had to do with things she had learned from me...  that there were just some things that did not feel right...  

After that anouncement I proceeded to let her know about what I had heard... and we kind of got a big laugh out of it... as we both knew what was really happening... we even joked about going to a meeting we knew she was going to be at and my girlfriend would do all the talking/sharing.. and I would not talk at all... just to see how she re-acts.. but after laughing about it.. . we decided that would be an unhealthy thing to do for us.. it would be better to just laugh it off.. . 

The quote   "what you think of me is none of my business"  was something that we talked about last night..  it does not matter what she and her sponsees are saying as long as we do what we need to and work on ourselves...  the truth is in our actions not her rumors...

Interesting the comments about moveing up in the service work, group rep kind of work... because yes she does that.... and she is actually violating guidelines in doing so.. .because as I found out a few months ago... one of her secrets she keeps out of the Alanon meetings is that she is a double winner.... which according to the guidelines.. and as I have learned recently, also the bi-laws of Alanon... the only offices a member of AA can hold in Alanon is a group officer, nothing outside the group, including a group rep...  and as I learned from an book covering step 6 and AA history...  The bi-law was put in at the request of Bill and Bob to Lois, because so many were coming into Alanon after being beat down by the A that it could cause some issues for the groups knowing that an A was helping shape the future of Alanon... feeling that they were being pushed down again... and as I found out from my friend... she was confronted about it by another double winner and her comment was no body else wanted the position... and it is a bad rule and as long as no one knows she can do what she wants... I had actually learned that before the stunt she pulled with my friend and his wife...

and as for sponsorship.. I have two sponsees and my approach is that same as my first sponsor.. I am here to help... but don't expect me to be your dad... I share my ES&H with them.. we talk about how I did things.. we talk about where they are today...  and I help them understand the steps.. but it is their responsibiltiy to work their program....  and I am a phone call away if they need me... but I am not going to follow up on them and make sure they are working their program...

It is interesting as they are both double winners... and I am not (by definition as I am not part of AA)... but I seem to attack more double winners, as they see something in me that they can relate to...  but the one when he asked me to be his sponsor did not realize he was an A... but after working on the first couple steps and talking thru some things he came to the realization.. and started going to AA also... has made a major change and growth in his programs....

Actually what was interesting about the two of them... they are both about the age of my son that passed.. and working with them was giving me some extra hope that these young guys.. after some major and life threating things were able to turn their lives around when they hit their bottoms.... that maybe my son could too... but since my son was never one that could ask for help... it did not work out for him...  and just maybe this contibuted to my being able to accept my sons death also..  because I could see what they went thru when they hit their bottoms... and with knowing my son he just could not reach out and ask for help the way these two did.. I just thought about that....  I am still learning a lot about my program and I work thru the grief of losing my son...  there has been some interesting realizations on my part..  and this was just another one...


Well thanks again to everyone.......

(((((((((((  all  ))))))))))))))))





__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 1917
Date:

case in point re: double winners in positions of power...geesh, its a slimey little situation there isn't it?! There are times I can just feel the red flags around a person, they are like tentacles and this is my HP talking to me, through my intuition and I just steer clear to the best of my ability. I am glad that your friend is making good healthy choices and so are you, it seems. HP brought it all through to a positive end (for you).

__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.