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Background: Ah and I have been separated for 7 mos now, but only now is he working a program and are we acting separated. We've been married for 18 yrs, and rarely took family vacations. His work was always too important and we did not make it a priority. He had plenty of fishing trips with his buddies. He claims he never enjoyed going anywhere with me and that we only had fun when we were with other people. Uh, yeah, and he was always impaired, but of couse that doesn't count.
A few months ago it seems his guilt got to him and he arranged for us to take a family trip to the mountains for 5 days between Christmas and New Years. Uhh, a bit late as we are not a family anymore... I am in no way looking forward to it, but decided that it is a done deal (he already paid for it) and the kids are thrilled beyond belief.
Our family counselor claimed it wasn't a good idea since we are not a family anymore and my personal counselor agreed. I talked with her about it yesterday and she gave me an earful. That was after looking at me like I was nuts! She was challenging, but I think she believed she needed to make a point with me. She told me to design the trip so it can work for me. What does that mean?
She made a couple of suggestions, both of which I can refute. Separate cars? We only have one safe snow vehicle and I hate driving, particularly in bad weather. Separate rooms? I guess we could do that but I would need to find a cheap motel somewhere because we couldn't afford another room in the lodge he reserved in. What else?
I don't worry about boundaries in regards to drinking/using. To be honest, I don't even know what the limitations will be with the Diversion Program he is in, but I know there will be some and he will have figured out. I am hoping they will just tell him he can't leave town and that we will have to cancel.My concern is more in regards to the wall between us, his tolerance of me having a difference of opinion or respondong a certain way, and our children not being perfect. I believe his guilt feeds into so much of his interactions with us. I have taken abuse, sacrificed and compromised and to be totally honest, now I just feel resentment. What selfish jerk! The kids are going to be under a lot of pressure. My d has said she wants us to go off alone one day and "make a decision". Not good. None of it and I do not know what to do.
So, my question is... have any of you had a successful, or unsuccessful, family vacation with the ex? Any e,s or h in terms you can offer in terms of what worked and didn't would certainly be appreciated!
Thanks, Lou
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
I don't have an ex to vacation with.....but I'm definitely in favor of a Plan B. Perhaps you can rent a car and he can pay for it or the motel room. Would it be okay if the kids went with him alone or is that not an option? Counting on the fact that the Diversion Program may not let him go is a biggy. Perhaps you can ask them if that's proper. Or if you have to go, ask for a room with double beds. That way there are no mixed signals. It just seems to me that other than breaking the kids hearts (and that's a biggy) it would be more trouble than it's worth. For him to plan a trip without your okay is his problem. He should have asked you. I know it was a nice gesture in one way. But it was also a way to manipulate and control you in his own way. If it were me, I'd find a way to back out. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
Maybe you could have a better time if you considered it a gift to the kids while making real sure A knows your only obligation is to make sure your kids have a good time.
Of course it'd be nice if you could somehow enjoy yourself. I think I'd have to tell him up front of any boundaries so he doesn't have any misconceptions of what is going to happen.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I guess what I would do is think it thru. Is it worth the pain, the uneasiness, the confusion? The mixed messages to the kids. My parents were seperated (not legally) for years and then out of the blue we took a family vacation. Me, my mom and my dad. It was not fun. My mother was a b*itch, my father tried really hard and I was lost in the middle of their unspoken hostility. In the hotel room there were 2 beds and my mother slept with me. That made me feel really awkward. I was 11 and I really thought that parents should sleep together. Not that they ever had in our home. Oh, I don't know Lou. I suppose if you are going to go you could just remember to enjoy it as it will be your last family vaca. Oh just focus on the kids and giving them memories they will cherish. Or make a stand and don't go. Let him take the kids and you go enjoy some alone time all for you.
Sorry Lou. I guess I have to agree with Jean. Lots of red flags. Sounds like a classic hoover manuever to me. Just trying to suck you back in. If I'm getting this straight. He made these plans without consulting you. You have no intention at this time of getting back together. He did not reserve even separate beds, much less separate rooms. This almost sounds like an assault waiting to happen, if not for the kids being in the same room. It sounds to me like he is totally playing on your regret and even guilt about the family never having a decent vacation. And using the kids disappointment against you to get what he wants.
I can't even imagine being ok with this scenario. I don't know how you could not give him mixed signals, unless maybe you absolutely refused to go unless he get and pay for another room at the same lodge for you. All he would have to do is contact the lodge and possibly find another date when they could rebook including the extra room.
Just my humble opinion. I hope HP steps in to make it work out for you somehow.
In recovery,
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Thank you for the responses! I know the situation is difficult to understand, but I can say with absolute certainty that he planned this trip solely with the kids in mind. He doesn't want me (other than to help with the kids). When we went to our marriage/ communication weekend a few months back, I reserved only one room with two beds and we each claimed one and did not stray. Not a problem. I absolutely need to check out the situation first, but I assume he will sleep with our 3 yr old, me with our daughter, and our son will be on the floor, couch, whatever... Heck, it could be two rooms, but I just don't think he would analyze the situation that closely and spend that kind of money. But, I need to look into it.
Confession here.... I did know about the trip. It was back in Sept and he mentioned taking the kids to the snow over winter break. I was in a different place then, still wanting to appease him. I started looking into it, and then he took the initiative and just made reservations, something totally out of character for him and for which he is very proud. Since we were starting our marriage classes at the time, I think I took it as a positive sign toward reconciliation. In his defense (and goodness knows he needs one) I believe it really was nothing more than a manuever to actually do something positive for our "family", in addition to relieving the guilt he feels for having gone on multiple vacations (aka expensive fishing trips) by himself (with his buddies). He just forgot about the details, like that we aren't a family anymore and that he can't stand me.
Hmmm... so at least I have some ideas to mull over....
I will check into getting another room, but it is the daytime interactions that really make me nervous, for at night at least we don't talk and are asleep!
I think I may consider telling him to take the older two and that I will stay home with our youngest, but that will probably make him mad! Oh yeah, it is not about him....
What I would really like to do is have an actual adult conversation with him about this. Since it doesn't seem like it would work to go to either of our personal counselors, I am thinking about running it by the counselor the kids and I go to and see if he can come there and have a family discussion. May be inappropriate, I don't know, but the kids absolutely will be affected no matter what happens. If he doesn't come, maybe we can discuss it without him and I then tell him what I need for the trip, but have the kids understand it with the help of thier counselor.
I would like to consider just going and enjoying the time with the kids, thinking of it as a gift. They have had such a rough year. If I can disengage and detach enough I am thinking it could be okay. Ah can take the kids skiing, iceskating, rock climbing and I can stay with the younger one. I can take naps with him. Maybe we will just really have to be together for meals?
I hope it doesn't seem like I asked for your help and am now disregarding it with a lot of "yeah, buts..". I cherish every thought and opinion. It really helps me to get your thoughts and then mesh them with mine. I am seeing that I do have more options than I thought, and need to be a bit more leary and proactive of the situation.
I think this is a good one to hand over to God, my HP!
More to come.
Blessings, Lou
-- Edited by Loupiness at 03:10, 2007-12-05
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
Hi, (note: looks like I was typing this when you were writing too)
I don't have any experience with vacations but thinking about day trips and looking at all the replies so far. hmmmm..... never thought about the mixed messages it sends to the kids and you wrote that your d is already asking for you both to make a decision. Sounds like the kids have had enough.
But going and if affording the extra room is not possible and you have separate beds, perhaps you could try to make it a memory for the kids. But to make it a good memory you'd really need to check out from trying to control, orchestrate, trying to settle or keep things ok for everyone - deattach in a big way. When we are out as a family, I've stopped jumping to the AH's ideas and send a question back or try to just see what happens without jumping in with my suggestions or ideas.
Here's what I mean: him- Are you ready to go? me-OK, are you going to get the kids? him-No! me-Ok, well we'll tell them when they return to our table. (He finally went to get them) They return with a what? I say, Dad wanted to get going, they don't and I am enjoying myself so I offer to wait being I have a 2nd car. He leaves. I continue to enjoy myself.
I'm not sure if this helps but the other option is cancellation. I can't find any positive in your post about the trip except the kids are thrilled. Are they thrilled because they think this means there is a chance to get the family back together or thrilled about the where?
and by the way, I bet you are a lot of fun to go places or be with - consider the source or the condition of the source. Let that go and start telling yourself how much fun your kids have with you and want to be with you plus others too in your 3D life and your MIP family. hugs from ddub
-- Edited by ddub at 02:38, 2007-12-05
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"Choices are the hinges of destiny." Pythagoras You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
Sounds to me like you are getting it figured out. The rest of us never know all the details that figure in when we comment, so of course there are always some "yeah buts". I personally am just adding depth to your decision making process. Absolutely no offense taken. Just glad to be here for you.
It will work out.
In recovery,
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
i think (cg) may have a good point Lou... i get the impression you have anxiety about going on this trip, you don't want to go, you don't want to be around the ex... why are you?
because it is paid for?
that doesn't seem to equal out.
you are worth doing the things you want, that make you happy, and not to be (manipulated) in a situation you wouldn't want to be in.
(Jen) also has a point. none of us know all your feelings, only you do. find what is right for (((Lou))) and MAKE THAT your reality!!!
with love, cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
To be totally honest, I do want to go, but only if it is going to be a peaceful, fun, relaxing and happy time, and I don't know if that is possible. I want a vacation with my children. I want to see my 3 yr old experience snow for the first time. I want to get away. What I don't want is to feel unloved and anxious. I don't want it to be another reason (or final straw) for my ah to confirm in his twisted mind that all experiences are miserable and that we can't have fun together. I feel so much hinges on the kids (or older 2) and thier behavior, and I acknowledge that not only is that unfair of me, but is incorrect. They are kids. They are not out of control or wild. They are two individuals with different temperments and needs and are not compatible with one another some of the time. I am afraid that I am going to put too much pressure on them to be "good" (translated - don't bicker and fight) . The problem is me and my "desire" to make my ah want our family.
Fact is my ah doesn't have coping skills. He cannot handle life on life's terms. For years he just stayed away and numbed himself from what everyone else considers normal day to day life. He can't stand himself. He has been working a program very hard for a month now, but that is only from a physical standpoint that I know of. What is going on in his head? I have no idea, other than I do not think I would want to be in there! Will this experience be different because he is sober? I don't know. I am afraid it is too early in his recovery to have a positive impact.
The sad and irritating part about all of it is that I just want to sit and talk to my ah about it, but I am scared. Are my communication skills are as bad as he wants me to believe? I hope not, but the truth is that whenever a conversation gets uncomfortable he will throw on me how I am impossible to communicate with and leave in a huff. I can't stand it! So, where I am right now is that if I even knew what I wanted, I don't know how to tell him! Email hasn't worked so well. He claims it is a constant bantering of f*** you. Ultimately I know that he is facing so much guilt it is almost intolerable, but it doesn't make my interactions any better.
I've been praying about it. I still think the Diversion Program thing is going to cause some issues. At the very least he will probably have to find a meeting to attend every day and get tested at least once. That could give me (and him) some sanity and definately be a reason he would NEED me there and should be nice.
Thank you for being here and the thought-provoking posts. I feel much better for being able to work through this in writing. It's becoming a bit clearer.
Thanks everyone!
Blessings, Lou
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
Lou, I remember my AH in early recovery and me trying to keep all around him perfect, to make everything else in life ok so that he would stay in recovery. I tried to make sure the kids were quiet and perfect and respectful to him (even when he didn't deserve it) I tried to enable him to be a father to them (and I was awsome at that). In the end, none of it kept him in recovery. All it did was damage my relationship with my kids. That equals miserable kids. Defeated the entire purpose. I didn't even realize it until recently. I remember sitting in a session, and even in alanon meetings and talking about what a b*tch I was being to the kids. I didn't get it. I didn't know why I was. I was so kind to him, using all of my patience and resourses to keep us a family, keep him healthy so that he would be there for the kids. None of it worked. I couldn't trust him. The last family vaca we took, as soon as we got there, he went around the corner to get shampoo that I forgot to bring, bought drugs, and came back. I didn't know he bought drugs. I was still laboring under the delussion that he was sober because he was in the program. I guess what I wanted to say was his being a father is NOT your job. And wether your marriage recovers or not it never will be your job. Just be careful and protect your heart and soul. This a terrible disease and it robs us of so much if we let it. Detatch. Detatch. Detatch. No matter what you decide to do (and remember it is YOUR decision) just staying detatched and letting him have his relationship with his kids, even if it is not the one you want him to have with his kids, will be the best thing in the end for you and your kids. 50/50 right? It might be the best time of your life, isn't that what vaca's are supposed to be? Why not?
with all of that stress and anxiety you have riding on whether or not it is a good time.... how in the world will you possibly be relaxed and serene enough to have a good time?
just a question... take what ya like, of course.
with love
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
You ARE figguring this out, good for you! And working things out by posting here will have you more and more prepared to proceed with whatever decision seems right for you. So keep posting......... (:
Someone once told me that confusion is good! It means there is still things to figgure out until we feel calm and right that our decision is right for us
The unknown of what the A might do makes me anxious but at times when I really know what my focus is, like I want a pleasant meal with the family, then when he pushes my buttons with some unneeded comment - I ignore or walk away... to restroom or somewhere so that I don't automatically react the way I always did.
Think. See what happens. Breathe. and all those slogans help me a lot.
I also find kids, young & older figure things out at their level and see the one who starts something as "acting wierd" or if I react, then both or somehow I look like the one "acting wierd" so I try to avoid being the wierd one for the kids. Not reacting and deattachment works, if you work it.
CJ does ask an interesting question to consider too.
hugs from ddub
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"Choices are the hinges of destiny." Pythagoras You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
