Update and help I'm flummoxed - Al-Anon Family Group

rara avis · Senior Member

Update and help I'm flummoxed

tommyecat · ~*Service Worker*~

For me when I am faced with decision that I just don't have the answer to, I always say I need more time to think about that. Should I be pressured into making a decision before I am clear on if it is in my best interest, the answer is always no. That is to keep me safe. The question "Is it in my BEST interest" is powerful. If the answer is no, then I say no. But the strength of the alanon program has given me permission to take as much time as I need to make a decision. Should another person not like that idea, that is not my problem. That is how I practice self care and keeping the focus on myself avoid people pleasing.

Now in terms of your question. I would not be comfortable answering it for you because that would be giving advice. I just don't know what it is like for you in your world as I cannot walk a mile in your shoes.

In support,

Tommye

rrib · Senior Member

You previously wrote 'He did not take my 'this cannot continue' seriously.'

Although you might be perplexed (ya, i had to google flummoxed), do you think he is?

rara avis · Senior Member

He takes it seriously now, since I didn't just leave a note and talk, but left the house and told him to move!

"Is it in my BEST interest" is a great question. The perplex/flummox comes from not knowing what that is.

I think it's time for a long walk!

xo

Tracy · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi,

I find myself in a very similar situation my ABf has had to stints of sobriety and has been active again for 2 months he now wants eveything to go back to normal. All the promises are there and I know he means them however it is not that simple he has lots of work to do. To day he was manipulating me getting upset, angrey etc telling me it would be over for ever. I told him I love him but I want to focus on me and he needs to focus on him. Today I have told him actions speak louder than words I have to do what is best for me.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not chnange (I can not trust my alcoholic partner)

The courage to change the things I can (set boundaries to protect myself)

and the wisdom to know the difference (I have learnt the hard way that I can not trust his promises.

take what you like and leave the rest

hugs tracy xxx

tommyecat · ~*Service Worker*~

There is a great reading in Hope for Today on September 9th, pp 253 regarding making decision and keeping it simple. It is where I stole the phrase, "is it in my best interest?" Check it out if you have the book. It might be a good page to read.

Best,

Tommye

glad · ~*Service Worker*~

He is saying he will seriously get a program and try..you think he means it..

I am the worst person in the world to even go anywhere near advise so please take this as it is intended as sharing my experience...

I would love to have even given such a thing a try... I ended it before he ever said that and I miss him...terrribly.

I don't know your life...your situation,, but I do totally agree that any decision made under the last minute stress you describe is not good.

Is it possible to do something that still re-inforces how serious you are and yet doesn't require him moving all his stuff? Your staying with a friend for a while?

His staying with family you and he can trust?

Something that is not it's over get out but is some distance? because it does sound like this is getting more involved/ living situations/ and the primary focus would be getting sober and healthy, with your love and support and still some boundries.... ( I would think an addiction counselor or experienced AA contact might have some other better help)

I care and will pray for you and yours..

STICKY: Why Alcoholism is "categorized/listed" as a disease by AMA (explained)

(Preview)

This sticky note helped me understand that their brains don't work right and why and that they need at least 18 months sober for the brain to start to function as it can.

The video in this one helped me understand so much of what seemed like "untrustworthy" behavior and why it seemed like I could not reason with my A. why so much of what he said drinking or not just did not make any sense.

It's bad decisions etc.. and bad behavior by choice yes,, but according to this medical information some of that is a brain just not working right.

-- Edited by glad on Thursday 15th of September 2011 11:21:35 AM

-- Edited by glad on Thursday 15th of September 2011 11:25:39 AM

rosielee · Senior Member

whats th saying- repent in leisure and do smething in haste? i totally agree with what peeps have said so far

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

I found the only way to leave was to make a plan b? Did you make one?

Don't be hard on yourself about this. Whatever you do is okay. His life is not in your hands it is in his hands. Give the reins back.

Maresie.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

His claim that there's no point moving out is a red flag for me. It says to me that what he really wants is not to move out. It is certainly possible to move out, spend a year gettingr really sane and sober, and then move back in. If in the meantime he learns to live alone healthily, all the better. The "deadline" aspect -- "you have to decide to commit to something big before this deadline" -- is just what the high-pressure sales agents do.

In my view, if he wants to prove that he "got" it and he's changed, he has all the time in the world to do it. It's no harder to do it living somewhere else. In fact it could well be easier.

In my view, also, he's like my exAH in that he is underestimating the challenge of changing his life and his attitudes. My ex had a number of "I got it and I've changed!" moments. He'd turn his life around drastically. He'd go to AA, he'd get a sponsor, he'd see the light, he'd work the program, he'd look into getting a job, all of that. The problem isn't starting the program. The problem was keeping on working the program. I didn't know that was the problem because we'd never even got as far as starting before.

If your RA can keep steady on his road to true recovery, he has plenty of time to prove it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a mark of true recovery is knowing that it can't happen overnight.

Speaking just from my own point of view, I'd say that what he has finally "gotten" is that you genuinely demand that he moves out. His solution solves that problem for him. Whether the other problem (his attitude and emotional un-sobriety) is also solved along the way remains to be seen. The question is: which problem needs to be solved first? My own vote would be that the problem that needs solving first is the one that protects you, not the one that protects him.

As always, just my 2 cents -- take what you like and leave the rest.

Hugs.

BlueCloud · Senior Member

Rara,

It seems like this hard decision is being made infinitely tougher because he is subtly threatening you in order to keep the status quo. To say to someone, "If I cannot live here, then the relationship is over," is a threat. Especially if that someone, according to your previous posts: 1) Doesn't pay any bills 2) Leaves big messes 3) refuses to better his situation 4) Increases your stresslevel enormously.

I might caution you that the other side of this threat is some subtle belief that you can control the situation i.e. if you do what he wants, he won't leave. Not true. He could leave anyway or you could be signing up for another round after telling him in no uncertain terms that you were done.

Part of my disease has been the belief that: If he does X, THEN I will stay. It is NEVER that simple because the issue is not starting a program (as a previous poster said), it is keeping up with it. He does not need to be at your house to prove himself.

I will say that when I was truly DONE. I walked. No sweet talk or "coming to jesus/seen the light" pleading on his part could get me back because I was truly done.

Are you done?

Whatever you say, mean what you say, say what you mean and don't say it mean.

youfoundme · ~*Service Worker*~

When I give ultimatums, I feel powerful over alcohol and the alcoholic and what he says or does. I can't tell someone "Stop doing this or you are out of here" because I can't stick by it. For me, working the steps with a sponsor is the only answer. When I have gone through all the steps, I am told, I will be more ready to make big decisions. Say what you mean, mean what you say and don't say it mean... and I am learning to take my time to answer questions. Its ok to say "I am just not sure right now, I need some time" HUGS! In support!!! Keep coming !

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't know what's right for your situation.

I know that before I left my exAH, I threatened several times to file for divorce and he didn't want to get divorced. He said a million times that he was ready to change, etc. Part of alcoholism is lying and manipulation. How do you know if an A is lying? Look at the actions instead of listening to the words. These days, he's still an active A. The words were just WORDS. They had no real meaning.

I kicked my second AH out during a relapse when I couldn't take the drama anymore. He had to move in with his parents for a while. Although it wasn't maybe the choice he wanted, it was my choice that he didn't live with me and continue to drink. I couldn't take it anymore. And my feelings were valid. Regardless of whether he liked the choice I'd made for myself about what I needed, it wasn't my responsibility to arrange my choice in a manner where it was comfortable for him.

I'm not advocating separating or not. Just saying to really ask yourself what YOU want. Not what he wants or what he says, not what you think you should do based upon his response, but what YOU want. You deserve to be happy, whatever that looks like for you.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Hello Rara - this part of your post: he says a separation wouldn't work for him, since by the time he moved all his stuff out, and would be sleeping on the office floor, there'd be no going back - wow, is that manipulative or what? You are (or were, or sounded like you were) already prepared to not have him in your life, so why does the threat of "no going back" carry any weight? Of course there is going back, but its up to HIM to get HIS life together enough for YOU to approve of HIM and IT before YOU will take him back. It's up to HIM to fix himself. My now ex said things to that effect when I proposed the divorce agreement, like we could never be together again if I did things this way. Like his future is all up to me? I know that if - and boy howdy is that a big if, my ex went to AA and began the process of recovery, true recovery, not just mouthing whatever words he thinks will get him back home, then I would consider giving him a chance at a life with me - BUT - He has to prove himself to ME.

Everytime I feel the tugs at my heart, I spend time making myself remember some of the bad things - hmmm, like the monkey turd........

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs RA,

Sending support during this really difficult time. I am so sorry you are going through this right now. I agree with what everyone has shared, how do you know an addict is lying their lips are moving. It's not that I doubt that what he is saying is true in this moment, it's how long does the moment last. I'm with WR, I'm not saying to go or to stay what I'm saying is what is your expectation if he doesn't follow through on the promises of today. What Tommy said about it being in your best interest is really a key issue too. What is it that YOU want and are YOU ready to make changes or to stay.

Hugs P :)

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

You say you "love him more than anything." That's not healthy. I know it's a turn of speach but is illustrates some of why you are going round and round.

Focus on this:

Do you love him more than yourself?
Do you love him more than your integrity?
Do you love him more than your serenity?
Do you love him more than your higher power (or God if you choose to call he/she/it)?

I'm guessing you might answer differently if you think about those things.

Furthermore, an addict/alcoholic is generally so fearful of change and serious ultimatums that he or she will convincingly paint a picture that your boundaries mean they will die or it's the end of the world or the end of the relationship. If it's meant to be it will work out even if he moves out and continues on in his recovery for a while and becomes more stable and someone you can believe more readily when he makes promises. It is not "either this or that." Alcoholics typically don't have relationships like normal adults. They take hostages. You do not have to be his hostage. You can set him free, set yourself free....and see where the relationship goes from there.

Not telling you what to do. I just can read alcoholic BS cuz I have acted like that myself and I see newly recovering people and active alcoholics present with this type of hostage taking relationship BS all the time.

Mark

rara avis · Senior Member

Thanks, everybody.

Update: It literally came down to a coin toss. 2 out of three said to give him a chance. So we talked and I told him he had 30 days to show consistent behavior. In any case I couldn't stand the thought of not hugging him again. But then...

I woke up this morning feeling awful. As you know my request was that he move and the door is open to him coming back. Since he refused the open door I feel like my choice was manipulated into an all or nothing decision. I so want to see him, at the same time I know that he maneuvered it that way and I fell for it. I realized I would come home, love him, love to see him, and know that he had stonewalled and manipulated it so we'd be that way. That's not right.

I'm sticking to my original decision. I had to leave a message w/my RA and contacted his invaluable sponsor and friend. If he needs it I can give him a few more days to move out - it's his fault for stalling, but mine for falling for it, so that seems fair.

What I need more than anything, and have needed, is for my RA and I to be separated. If he doesn't see it that way, that is his issue.

I do love this guy so much. I also am truly at the utter end of my tether and feel like a lunatic. This insanity must stop. I am proud of myself for sticking to my guns, but not proud of the way I ended up letting myself get yanked around and how I dealt with it. I can't believe what a mess I've become. It's ridiculous.

Never before have I felt like I've been in such an emotional position to need friends, [ and I've been through a lot ] and asking for what I need is so durn difficult. The next few months will be difficult and full of self doubt I'm sure, so if I could be reminded of the MONKEY TURD ON THE FLOOR at regular intervals that would be a huuuuuge help!

You guys, though strangers, feel like true friends and I hope to return the favor in whatever use I am able. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH for your esh!!! I'm very familiar w/mental illness but not at all w/recovering alcoholics so w/out alanon in literature, meetings, and HERE I'd be flying blind.

THANK YOU! And GOD/HP/CHOOSE YOUR DIETY BLESS!!
rara avis

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Sounds like you relied on a higher power (even if it was just our collective support) to make sounder choices. That is working a good program Rara. Kudos.

rara avis · Senior Member

It is soooo hard. RA contacted me and reminded me that he will be sleeping in his office, on a floor, with no hot water and winter approaching while I'm in a warm house and plenty of room. He called me a hypocrite and said he is repulsed. I feel literally sick.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Mine has been living in a travel trailer for 10 months now, its all my fault of course, because I kicked him out - he had nothing to do with it, the money he's since made - well, its my fault he hasn't saved it up to get his own place, I control him like a marionette you know? I screen his calls, try to gauge his reason for calling, if he starts down THAT road i get really silent, then I say, well, you know what I asked you to do (AA), he hangs up on me usually. Sometimes I'll say, I don't know what you want me to do about it, you made the choice not to ....... you know? It gets easier each time I have to be firm, especially when the song never changes, he's still, 10 months down the road, crying the same song and not done ONE thing to better the situation himself. evil sounding thought made me add this edit: offer to buy him an airmattress? they make really good ones, tell him you saw one on craigslist.... or one of those couches that convert to sleeping bed??

-- Edited by likemyheart on Friday 16th of September 2011 03:27:48 PM

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I say "Boohoo" and for him to "Grow up." Yes I'm being opinionated and I haven't exactly walked in your shoes. I do see this self centered behavior from tons of newcomers and active alcoholics in AA. Who got him to the point where he has to sleep in the office? Who made him financially unstable? HIM! His mistakes, his disease....his consequences. And in answer to name calling I would then say "Wow, sounds like you really hate me if you think I'm such a repulsive hypocrite. This just confirms I made the right decision."

Obviously his reaction has nothing to do with his feelings about you and everything to do with wanting to be taken care of and enabled. If you said, "Okay you can stay!" he would suddenly think you were wonderful and not a hypocrite I'm sure. His opinion of you and love for you should be based on who you are and not whether you take care of him.

Of course take what you want from this and leave the rest. I know it's one of my more opinionated posts...

He may grow into a more mature and functional man in his recovery but he really needs to focus on him. All the manipulation and ploys to get you to do this and do that....it shows a sick alcoholic that needs to focus on their own life and AA program.

As for you rara, just keep doing the next right thing.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I think Pinkchip's post shows so much wisdom. It's what I would have said if my words had that much punch! smile

As for sleeping on the floor of his office ... at any point in the past umpteen years he could have made choices that would have led to a healthier life for him. If his own recovery were his focus, he would not be whining and manipulating, but would be making those choices now. They sure do show us over and over that they're not thinking sanely, don't they?

This also saves you from having to follow him around with the pooper scooper...

rara avis · Senior Member

I love the outside perspective. Currently my own brain is working against me, as I had a dream last night that I saw my RA and we reconciled. Boohoo!

What's made this so perplexing is the fact that my RA has not had a drink for 7 years. I'm REALLY glad he's not drinking, but if he had, the past year plus would have made much more sense to me. I'm currently getting flamed by my RA, being called a repulsive hypocrite, etc...

As far as actions go, I'm not going home yet as my RA needs more time to move. Fair enough. I'm leaving this hotel today, driving half the day, spending a night w/my parents, then flying out to crash at a friend's house until Friday. Literally and metaphorically bringing my dirty laundry with me! The dog is at a dog sitter, and I feel guilty that I've just run off on him. At least he's with other dogs. And I don't even have to pick up dog poop this week.

Thanks again for the perspective and support in this difficult time.

rara avis

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