I am a Buddhist. When I chaired a meeting, I declosed that I was not familiar with the Lord's Prayer and was told by my group that they would teach it to me. I replied that it wasn't my prayer and that God of my understanding understands my own prayer's words. I was also told that I could remain silent and hold hands as the Lord's Prayer was resited by the Christians in our group. This makes me feel like I don't fit in.
I don't understand why a religous Christian prayer is used in our meeting when it's suppose to be spiritual rather than religious. Religious prayers can be said at home or at their respective religious meeting places. When I suggested a universal alanon prayer instead, i was met with anger and told that Lois had closed the meetings with the Lord's Prayer.
Why don't people have the courage to change?
peewee said
Oct 1, 2006
Malia, that's just the way it is.
You can do as they suggested, and/or say your own prayer to yourself if you like.
You are just as welcome as the next person to alanon.
PW
malia said
Oct 1, 2006
To bring a religious prayer into alanon is wrong. Why do I have to be silent about something that is clearly wrong? Ghandi would have said something about this.
Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence - "All men are created equal." Yet, he continued to own slaves all his life. He didn't have the courage to change.
Alanon states spritual rather than religious. Yet people don't have the courage to change.
I want to make Alanon the way it was meant to be.
debilyn said
Oct 1, 2006
Hello and welcome, if you read the history of AA you will see that it was indeed started with many Christian ideals.
It also has many other aspects that are not part of a christian religion.
Not all AA or Alanon say the Lords prayer, many say the Serenity prayer.
We cannot please everyone, we cannot change this program from where it came.
I do relate to your question. However, one of the most important things that alanon says is,"Take what you want and leave the rest."
I am a Jehovahs Witness, but I do just that, take what I want and leave the rest. I take what is comfortable for me, I glean the good of the program and don't try to pick it apart.
Our focus is to help us to deal with a loved one who suffers with a horrible disease. We are not going to waste our time, talking about how to change a program. It is the way it is.
I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag. I won't pledge my allegiance alligence? to anything or anyone but Jehovah. But I respect those that do, and I just act in a respectful manner and don't say it.
The point of not talking about religion is more, that we are not here to discuss religion or start telling about how this is right or wrong. Again our focus is the A qualifier.
When I say the Lords Prayer, I say the name of who i believe is our creator. But I don't say it outloud.
Anyway, this is not a new thing, what you are saying. It has been a debate for years. But alanon was born from a religious group and Bill and others. Many, many things are from the Bible. Even if you do not believe in the Bible, many of it's truth are helpful to everyone.
Taking one day at a time, is in the Bible, don't be anxious is, surrendering is... lots lots more too. But they are just things that work.
If I were to come in here and preach and witness about JW's and how it is the only way and blah blah, that would be inappropriate.
Anyway I have courage, but I don't have the energy to waste on something like this. I take what I want and leave the rest.
You can see how I and others handle the closing prayer. What I try to keep in mind is the program itself. Not the prayers and references that don't pertain my beliefs. In this way I can take what I need and apply it to my everyday life.
You are not required to participate in any way if you choose not to. You may even step back and not join the circle. I choose to join the circle, yet say my own prayer, while holding hands with those in my meeting.
Personally, I take what I like from many religions and combine them in to one that I can spritiually live by. From Buddhism I take * know that love is a verb, not a noun. The way of a Buddha is simply to stay present, and to be love.* This coincides with the Alanon saying: We will love you until you can love yourself.
When my fellow Alanon members recite the Lord's Prayer. I accept it as their truth. I know I still have my own truth and am able to love them as fellow children of the creator. My belief is that there is ONE creator of all. How any one of us choose to worship is why we were given free will and I am accepting of all beliefs. I cannot change what they believe, nor can they change what I believe. It is not a stumbling point for me in Alanon. I simply rise above the seperateness of religions and choose to think of us all as one energy that has come together for the purpose of overcoming the affects of the disease of alcoholism, which is the goal of the program..
My spirit led me to Alanon and I will be ever grateful that I listened to it, instead of the angry, resentful words of my brain.
Keep coming back, my friend. Christy
Maria123 said
Oct 1, 2006
Welcome to Miracles in Progress Malia,
My face to face groups do not close with the Lord's Prayer. They close with the Serenity Prayer.
Despite the fact that I was born Catholic and love the Lord's Prayer and love each and every word it symbolizes, I can see your point. I also have learned a lot about other's "religions" too that I would have not learned had I not kept an open mind. Some one of these days, I am going to read the Tao from a very controversial book.
In meetings online here, we also close with the Lord's Prayer. About two years ago, we spent two month's meetings discussing the pros and cons of this practice. Ultimately the group conscience voted to keep the Lord's Prayer as the closing. I was one of the few dissenting votes. Part of my recovery is "accepting the things I cannot change" after having had a chance to discuss my feelings pro/con about it. It's good practice for me.
However, I kept and will keep coming because "I have more in common with all of you than what separates me." I also use Paths to Recovery. There's so much information about what/how you may differ and of the course the tradition ~ Principles Above Personalities.
So I hope you will keep coming. You are not alone.
yours in recovery, Maria123
bob6502 said
Oct 1, 2006
Dear Malia,
I have been in Al-Anon a long time. Several years ago we had just this discussion. We took the issue to the area assemblies and to WSO. Through our discussion, it was decided that each group could change their closing to the serenity prayer if they wished, or to the Al-Anon Declaration, or keep the lord's prayer. Many groups still use the lord's prayer and some use the serenity prayer.
Yes, the lord's prayer is related to christian religion but, can we not all find inspiration for recovery from it??? I used to think that I could only find inspiration for recovery from Al-Anon readings and from meetings. Now I have discovered I can find inspiration from music, nature, my wonderful friends, and from people I don't even like or know.
How important is it??? We are not here to convert you. We are here for our own recovery to which we are responsible for... not another person. Al-Anon has no rules, only guidlelines. These guidelines work and I choose to use them because what I did before didn't work. I take what I like, and leave the rest, and believe me there isn't anything that I would give away in this program. It all has some meaning to me in my life regardless of it's origin. I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person. My definition of a higher power is not important. I only know I have one and that's what's most important to me.
Very glad you are here with us,
SenoraBob
lin0606 said
Oct 1, 2006
Have you brought this up in your group's business meeting or whenever they meet to discuss group policies? You may find that you have support and that the group decides to change. I f not, I would do as others suggest, and just let it go, it's just form, not function. If it truly bothers you so that you are not getting what you need from the meetings, you may need to find another meeting.
tea2 said
Oct 2, 2006
Hello Malia,
Al-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization, or Institution, does not engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any cause.
For reference these are brief quotes taken from theAl-Anon Alateen Service Manual 2004-2006
(Page 34) It is suggested that Al-Anon/ Alateen members avoid discussion of specific religious beliefs or ideas, criticism of one another or the alcoholic, gossip, or revealing intimate details of their problems. More detailed discussion may take place in private conversations between individuals before and after the meeting. (Page 52) The three major obstacles to success in Al-Anon are discussion of religion, gossip, and dominance. (Pages 195- 199) Warranty Four covers this more in depth.
(Page 47) At the end of the Al-Anon Closing Preamble (and as written at my face to face)
Will all who care to join me in the closing with the ________ prayer?
It is suggested that groups close in a manner that is agreeable to the group conscience.
As another member had replied in a similar post: every group shall be autonomous, which means they can close their meetings with any prayer they choose if the group as a whole votes to do so.
The meetings I go to it can vary from the Al-Anon Declaration, The Serenity Prayer or The Lords Prayer. A recent example from one of my face to face meetings Group Conscience where it was voted to leave the decision of the closing up to the person chairing that week. This is quite a change because The Lords Prayer had not been a part of this group in quite some time -Which then reminded me, Participation is the key to harmony (and why I try my best to attend)
I agree with others suggestions and with Lin’s, perhaps trying other meetings to see where you are most comfortable
Hope this helps.
tea2 said
Oct 2, 2006
Malia,
For me another thing that comes to mind -when I have a question regarding Al-Anon principles and such I look at it as an opportunity for me to learn more about the program. I would come here, ask an elder in program, crack open my CAL books and use the World Service Organization Website - WWW.al-anon.alateen.org. I often find the answers in the Steps, Traditions and Concepts.
-- Edited by tea2 at 15:49, 2006-10-02
bobbo said
Oct 5, 2006
I remember when this topic came up at the group conscience many years ago. Someone wanted it replaced/removed. I can understand this but loving this prayer as I do I voted to keep it. I really don't think I was being insensitive. It is true that this Christian prayer is in the New Testament & is a quote of Jesus. Allow me to challenge you to read the words & change the words into modern English. It is a prayer of deference & surrender. It notes that our Higher Power will care for us & we are not to cling to resentments. Good advice for my recovery!
As a child, I remember reciting the Lords Prayer in public school in the US. I'm a Roman Catholic & we did not recite the final verse... I stopped reciting & one of my classmates asked why I did. I felt really out of place & just responded that "we didn't say it like that". So I do not support prayer in schools. Being different is not exactly comfortable for a 2nd grader! Feeling that we are not alone & have something in common is important for face to face meetings. If you feel uncomfortable with this Christian prayer, you need to bring it up in the group conscience. If that does help - there may be other meetings that will be sensitive to your feelings
The Buddhist principle of "quieting the chatter in your head" has helped me in my recovery. If I could not (& there are many times I have been unsuccessful in doing so) ever do that I don't believe that I could hear the recovery my Higher Power was offering through my own thoughts. My Higher Power speaks to me in many ways. My own thoughts & the words of others are part of it. Lessons from different religious faiths will make us stronger. We who believe in a Higher Power have so much more in common than we have differences. Take what you like & leave the rest. My belief is that the Christian "Lord's Prayer" has incredible lessons for all whether you you are Christian or not.
2accept said
Feb 21, 2017
Coming into Alanon in 1988 as a lifelong atheist, my life was in shambles. Prior to coming into Alanon, I had, once again, placed all my trust in the hands of a madman alcoholic. Not knowing at the time, my real thrist was for God, not man.
Strangely enough, the Lord's Prayer gave me comfort, because of my complete brokeness and suicidal tendency. Being atheist my whole life, I had no preconceived notions or prejudices toward the Lord's Prayer or any other prayer for that matter. I put no human label on the Spiritual Words that saved my life. The desparation running through my vains was greater than any close-mindedness of days gone by. The Lord's Prayer was and still is a life preserver that I hold close.
My membership in Alanon is not about changing others and their beliefs, but about changing myself with God's help, in order to become the person God has always intended me to be. That can not and will not be accomplished without my cooperation with God's loving and nuturing, ever present guidance.
Recovery is not about changing others or about creating drama and pain for others. It is about being of maximum service to others by sharing hope for a restored life of happiness, joy, and peace, whether the alcoholic is wet, dry, or truly sober.
Spiritual "dryness" can show up in non-alcoholics, as well. The way self-will tries to get its own way by forcing others to comply, conform, obey, bow down, fall in line, or be stripped of all freedoms, is a result of human control. When human control is paramount, there is no God to be found. Fear and ego war toward broken factions which are left in abandoned chaos. In this envionment, God-given freedom has evaporated like a mist on a hot summer day.
Keeping the focus on ourselves and off of others' belief systems, is the Key to the Truth in Spiritual Growth. The Lord's Prayer is a warmly welcomed prayer in Alanon. The Lord's Prayer is God's language to touch the hearts of man, as well as, all other prayers around the world. God speaks all languages; God shares all Truth through all languages. God is not prejudice nor closed-minded. The teaching of God is universal. The hatred of man and man's differences, are the result of close-mindedness and ignorance. God of mankind is all powerful and loving.
"HOW" do we become transformed in Alanon? We let our own individual HP's Energy move through us to shatter our deep seated denial into Honesty; shatter our close-mindedness into Open- mindedness; shatter our unwillingness into Willingness...
Blessings To All Believers & Unbelievers,
2accept
el-cee said
Feb 21, 2017
I agree, The Lord's prayer seems to me to be Christian and the program is spiritual rather than Christian. Ive been to meetings and its said and to be honest it doesnt bother me, I quite like the words, especially when it says 'thy will be done' and a few other parts are pretty spiritual to me. My home group says the Serenity Prayer at the end of every meeting. I would have a think about it using the slogan 'how important is it?' and if you feel it is important to you and your motives are pure then raise it at a business meeting. The problem is that people often get used to a certain way of doing things and it can offer comfort to some especially us who have had chaotic lives and so if it means a lot to the majority then maybe you need to deal with it and maybe look for the good in it rather than the idea that its wrong. I suppose its an opportunity for tolerance. Meetings usually provide that.
el-cee said
Feb 21, 2017
Oh welcome, 2 accept, this is a very old post so the chances are the person who posted is no longer here but good topic anyway. You may get more replys if you begin your own thread.
Walt said
Dec 3, 2017
Lois may have been the first one to use the Lords Prayer and in choosing to do so was wrong.
Today each Al Anon Group is independent and free to change from using it.
In Al Anon no single member, dead or alive, controls what others choose to change.
Walt
Jerry F said
Dec 3, 2017
My experiences are wide regarding this subject matter and I am grateful for it. I was born and raised in the Christian realm and it was not my choice tho I served it well. Coming into Al-Anon and being influence with the guidance of "A God of my choice" I left much of the influence over with the Ancient indigenous peoples I was familiar with; native americans and Kanaka Maoli the native Hawaiians. What did they know and how did they apply it? I asked and then I listened. I got out of my head where most of my life problems originated from along with my ego and listened and asked. My home group in central valley California had a procedure of allowing the membership to decide what service they wanted to do for the next upcoming meeting and one of our members chose to close the meeting. When that meeting came due he asked me to close it because he wasn't Christian and didn't know the Lord's prayer. I did not want to enable the group to not experience what could be a great spiritual growth and I told him, Do it the best way you know how. He then told me he was Blackfoot Indian. Have you ever heard a Blackfoot Indian speak with his "Creator Father" ? Even at this moment my spirit is stirred at the memory. The conversation was real and one on one tho he stood in a large group of Al-Anons looking to "change the things we could". With a renewed and deeply widened understanding I returned home to Hawaii in time and now converse and follow the directions of my Higher Power who was present at my birth and remains with me daily. Mahalo Akua Ia ka Makua kane. I don't pray in Hawaiian in our meetings because the fellowship doesn't speak in my language...I let others say their prayer or I use the Al-Anon declaration..."When anyone anywhere reaches out for help...I want the hand of Al-Anon (or AA) to always be there; and for that I am responsible". I think my HP loves that prayer. ((((hugs))))
DavidG said
Dec 3, 2017
A thorny topic at the best of times- but maybe an essential one.
Alanon grew out of a different age. Some of us may feel that it still lags behind. The group conscience arena, and the conference could be seen as a hazard zone for some of us who want change. I was told to look at the similarities and not the differences... ...very good advice!
We visited Stepping Stones a few years ago. According to her wishes there was an edition of LIFE magazine laying beside Lois's chair. It was left open- and maybe for all time- on the pages devoted to Buddhism.
The original poster here may have long gone. But what the heck. Here is Alanon we get to have grown up conversations, and we get to grow emotionally to be grown up people. Sometime I might start a thread to talk about my own spiritual journey... ...I am still on this journey... and hopefully always will be...
...ma te Atua e taiki, e manaaki... my my higher power both guard and guide me...
...
hotrod said
Dec 3, 2017
I agree, the decision to use the Lords prayer is an individual group decision. In fact not one of my meetings uses the Lord's prayer, instead we close with the Serenity prayer.
Alanon Traditions are by no means obsolete and Group conscious works when we keep an open mind and work it
MeTwo2 said
Dec 3, 2017
Hi Malia ..
this has been a subject that has often upset many .. (it's my own belief that it's because it's where i think some of us might have the 'most anger or the greatest confusion .. .. but today i also believe it's possible it's 'Supposed to bring that anger confusion in general and self right thinking (inside us) to the surface .. so that we can search and then turn all that stuff (stuffed or hidden inside us) over to the 'care of our higher power however we each view that higher power ..
the steps often change 'us from the 'inside out .. (still moving through that) .. on step 4 i believe in our tradition 2 that there is but One authority a (loving god) expressing 'through our 'group conscience .. once again .. however we each choose to view that higher power ... step 4 comes later after we have worked the first 3 .. I believe in tradition 2 that One authority, a 'loving higher power, would like us to heal on every layer in every area .. (that is if we want to be healed) the lord's prayer is Perfect in my view Because it does just that .. brings everything up from the past inside us that prevents us from growing deeper acceptance of ourselves and others.. step 4 is about 'facing the past (beliefs too) in order to step more into today on step 5 .. we are validated in our own personal beliefs 'too moving through that 4th step so we learn to accept ourselves 'and others on deeper (freer) levels .. Every bug or irritable dislike (resentment) Belongs on the 4th step (IF) we are each willing to go to that level of honesty and healing inside us .. it doesn't mean we need to believe the same way others do .. it simply means we remove more of our self right beliefs of what or who is right wrong; worse or better so to speak .. I believe it's the willingness that heals us as we get out of the judging which isn't our job ..
as for alanon coming into a new age .. i have often said I don't believe a higher power in general changes .. (don't believe it needs to) believe we do .. the program wasn't broken or confused .. (we were) .. we can heal as we learn to open hearts minds and grow acceptance of ourselves and others .. (open ourselves to step 2 of possibilities) that is if we don't let the confusion or anger control us (close the doors to our minds or hearts)
it can serve a higher sometimes 'deeper purpose .. (that is if we don't get 'stuck on our 'personal church or religion judgments)
i am still working on accepting much myself .. that prayer was hard for me for years too .. but that wasn't about the prayer .. that was about me .. if i'm honest. it was about about other people who had hurt me (not god) in fact, the second i heard the words 'the lord, ironically it wasn't the lord who jumped in my mind .. quite the opposite in fact .. have a lot to keep moving through on this end but that one prayer is no longer a problem for me .. (not sure it 'ever really was .. but in all fairness if i 'thought it was it was whether it was ''or wasn't) .. .. just sayin .. we might be robbing ourselves of deeper gifts by removing what was placed there for a greater reason ..
MeTwo2 said
Dec 3, 2017
I will reluctantly share .. I believe Lois too had a higher power expressing through her conscience . would never judge who or what is right or wrong .. (Lois may have had a 'different experience which led her to believe differently) .. i believe the unity and the spiritual foundation of the program begin with freedom to choose .. i have often said it should be chairs choice of course .. but noone in alanon should 'ever have to stuff their choice because another alanon family member doesn't like it ? this program is about changing us .. not alanon, the alcoholic, or each other .. just saying .. alcoholism is a thinking disease not just drinking disease .. even in alanon we're still a family who has been effected by a disease and any sort of domination period is a symptom of just that .. disease not recovery which is for unity .. reminds me of the saying which comes to mind 'a house divided can not stand 'forever .. absolutely no criticism or judgement of anyone in my reply ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 06:44:11 PM
MeTwo2 said
Dec 3, 2017
and please know shared the above with 'gentle effect ..
hotrod said
Dec 3, 2017
Well said Metwo2 I agree completely
MeTwo2 said
Dec 3, 2017
Lyne said
Dec 4, 2017
My F2F meeting opens with the Serenity Prayer, and closes with the Alanon declaration . I understand your concerns completely and perhaps finding a different F2F is the way to go. Lyne
2HP said
Dec 4, 2017
I marveled when coming into 12-step recovery that we were all invited to believe in the higher power we could each "understand"
Knowing there is only ONE power that is quite capable of revealing itself in an infinite number of ways.
How can words or language matter in a "spiritual" program when words and language have no being..?? It is the importance we attach to everything that separates us.
I have found the best way to pray is from feeling, from the heart. "Audible" prayer is not necessary for Higher Power to "hear."
DavidG said
Dec 4, 2017
There is a lovely reading in Hope For Today about "scrawny carrots." {December 5th}
It really underlines our way of dealing with higher power issues, in a very direct way...
mamalioness said
Dec 4, 2017
Hey Malia and Christy, I am with you two, 100 % I am a dash of metaphysics, interested in Buddhism, I do my own thing SPIRITUALLY, not religious....I am very Agnostic about the Christian described God, I just don't buy how it is portrayed, so like Christy, I do my own thing...I take what I like from many philosophies , I love reading the Dalai Lama , its about Love and being in the present IMO....I love what Christy says....Stay present and be love...I think if I can keep practicing that I can actually get rid of a lot of the scary crap that is only in my head and not in my body, and my "now" time......I just sit and let them pray however they want, but I totally agree...sometimes i thought the program was exclusionary, only embracing Christians and that put me off because I am a "mixture" and it has nothing to do with organized religion....i just do my own thing when it is prayer time at a meet....I can't change them, but I can be myself and they cannot change me.....my spirit, too, brought me to al-anon and i embrace the "take what you like and leave the rest" and the step 2, came to believe AS I UNDERSTAND IT.....I had issues with the emphasis on the G-d thing and "turning my life and will over to HIS care" NAwwwwww not for me, a male gender Higher power, so I just took what worked for me and applied the steps in a way that worked for me...the bottom line is TOTAL honesty and openess and willingness...I am as sick as my secrets and sharing them has nothing to do with any religion thing....its all about my wanting to discover me, love what I discover, BE love and cast off or at least mitigate those aspects of me that I don't want....So Malia, you are not alone in your feelings about the "too much Christian" thingy...I have felt the same, but I don't let it phase me anymore...I have my own take on what my Higher power is...the Universe is of me and I am of the Universe.......Morals and meditation...Practice what is healthy and meditate some more....staying in the present and staying in my truth based on honest evaluation of me and what I am thinking, doing, etc., where I am at right now and how I can grow..........
hotrod said
Dec 4, 2017
Hi David I am sorry but i do not have the "HFT" and am confused about the "scrawny carrots" reference . Can you explain?
DavidG said
Dec 4, 2017
hotrod wrote:
Hi David I am sorry but i do not have the "HFT" and am confused about the "scrawny carrots" reference . Can you explain?
Okay Betty- I will quote part of it and paraphrase the rest....
This mother, one of our Alanon members says that her kids did not like cooked carrots. So she gave them raw carrots. So she shopped for the fresh bright ones- not the old pale woody ones.
When her son got to be a teen he challenged her about why she always bought 'scrawny' carrots.
At a meeting the discussion was about spiritual gifts that come in the form of something we don't really like.
"Suddenly I found new insight and understanding.
Was I resenting God' scrawny carrots"
Were the challenges and losses in my life actually gifts God had chosen carefully for me so that might grow spiritually?"
...
hotrod said
Dec 4, 2017
Great reference David Thanks. I can identify I can see that the painful experiences in m life actually did foster my deep spiritual growth -- NO scrwny carrots were they. :0
MeTwo2 said
Dec 5, 2017
Love that too David, great share .. and Relate to that one for sure betty .. nothing scrawny about it .. i thought this was possibly the story of the snowman who thawed outside the home melting off layers and all that remained was a carrot and a clump of snow where a mountain of icy cold hard snow once stood .. many great reads we have .. definitely need to keep reading, coming back, and moving forward regardless ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Tuesday 5th of December 2017 10:19:57 PM
mamalioness said
Dec 5, 2017
I think is some cases/lives one can get TOO much "growth opportunities" or "gifts" and be broken...there is a difference between a lesson and a life shattering, life changing event(s) that one just never rebounds from.....I became Agnostic about any "outside of me" diety because I , and I just say this for me, just had too much of the darkside tossed at me and no safe place or person to go to...The beast made sure my exit routes were blocked.....I'll be in recovery for the rest of my life and will never completely heal...The neurological and biological damage to my brain from all the trauma, I will be on meds till I die and have my days where I need to shut down and rest.Experience overload, be it happy or not happy knocks me down.......it sucks but I do the best I can to try and live inspite of all of it
hotrod said
Dec 5, 2017
Hi Rose your efforts to live life on life's terms are admirable . I too believe that my HP is within and the more I can discard my negative destructive defenses that I developed as a child the more in touch will I be with my inner beauty. I see that in you as well. Glad you are here
mamalioness said
Dec 5, 2017
(((((Betty))))) well my "living life on life's terms" was very very hard for the control freak here, but I had no choice..I was being beat up by trying to force the brick walls and control the uncontrollables, so I HAD to change, not them but ME!!!! .....and I agree with you and your "inner beauty" You are loaded with inner beauty.........Love ya bunches and I am glad I am here, too
MeTwo2 said
Dec 7, 2017
have often heard the words life-changing and steps and traditions used in the same sentence .. agree the 4th step hurts sometimes excruciatingly .. (good thing there's a 5th) .. also a good thing there are 3 steps before it with prep work beforehand .. reading your post lioness is a good reminder to not try to tackle it all in a day .. to spread it out an go at our own pace with a sponsor and allow for smaller doses of trauma to be removed at a time .. all i really know is i have often heard we are preparing to receive the priceless gift of serenity .. think what that's beginning to mean for me is that anything we become wiling to walk 'through' will be worth it in the long run .. and if we are walking 'through' something eventually we come out the other side .. (hope) it's definitely a step process i couldn't and wouldn't choose to move through alone .. I'll be a lifer here too as well ..
relate to being agnostic .. have been re-reading the big AA book chapter on we agnostics ..
agree with the inner beauty in betty an others here .. you have loads too mama .. have felt it through many of your 'past shares .. still moving through the ugly of the attitude in me sometimes .. the blame etc .. feel it all too well at times ..
My group closes with the "Lord's Prayer".
I am a Buddhist. When I chaired a meeting, I declosed that I was not familiar with the Lord's Prayer and was told by my group that they would teach it to me. I replied that it wasn't my prayer and that God of my understanding understands my own prayer's words. I was also told that I could remain silent and hold hands as the Lord's Prayer was resited by the Christians in our group. This makes me feel like I don't fit in.
I don't understand why a religous Christian prayer is used in our meeting when it's suppose to be spiritual rather than religious. Religious prayers can be said at home or at their respective religious meeting places. When I suggested a universal alanon prayer instead, i was met with anger and told that Lois had closed the meetings with the Lord's Prayer.
Why don't people have the courage to change?
Malia, that's just the way it is.
You can do as they suggested, and/or say your own prayer to yourself if you like.
You are just as welcome as the next person to alanon.
PW
To bring a religious prayer into alanon is wrong. Why do I have to be silent about something that is clearly wrong? Ghandi would have said something about this.
Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence - "All men are created equal." Yet, he continued to own slaves all his life. He didn't have the courage to change.
Alanon states spritual rather than religious. Yet people don't have the courage to change.
I want to make Alanon the way it was meant to be.
Hello and welcome, if you read the history of AA you will see that it was indeed started with many Christian ideals.
It also has many other aspects that are not part of a christian religion.
Not all AA or Alanon say the Lords prayer, many say the Serenity prayer.
We cannot please everyone, we cannot change this program from where it came.
I do relate to your question. However, one of the most important things that alanon says is,"Take what you want and leave the rest."
I am a Jehovahs Witness, but I do just that, take what I want and leave the rest. I take what is comfortable for me, I glean the good of the program and don't try to pick it apart.
Our focus is to help us to deal with a loved one who suffers with a horrible disease. We are not going to waste our time, talking about how to change a program. It is the way it is.
I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag. I won't pledge my allegiance alligence? to anything or anyone but Jehovah. But I respect those that do, and I just act in a respectful manner and don't say it.
The point of not talking about religion is more, that we are not here to discuss religion or start telling about how this is right or wrong. Again our focus is the A qualifier.
When I say the Lords Prayer, I say the name of who i believe is our creator. But I don't say it outloud.
Anyway, this is not a new thing, what you are saying. It has been a debate for years. But alanon was born from a religious group and Bill and others. Many, many things are from the Bible. Even if you do not believe in the Bible, many of it's truth are helpful to everyone.
Taking one day at a time, is in the Bible, don't be anxious is, surrendering is... lots lots more too. But they are just things that work.
If I were to come in here and preach and witness about JW's and how it is the only way and blah blah, that would be inappropriate.
Anyway I have courage, but I don't have the energy to waste on something like this. I take what I want and leave the rest.
much love to you,debilyn
Welcome :)
There was recently a thread concerning the same topic. Here it is:
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=42727&p=3&topicID=8522042&topicPage=1
You can see how I and others handle the closing prayer. What I try to keep in mind is the program itself. Not the prayers and references that don't pertain my beliefs. In this way I can take what I need and apply it to my everyday life.
You are not required to participate in any way if you choose not to. You may even step back and not join the circle. I choose to join the circle, yet say my own prayer, while holding hands with those in my meeting.
Personally, I take what I like from many religions and combine them in to one that I can spritiually live by.
From Buddhism I take * know that love is a verb, not a noun. The way of a Buddha is simply to stay present, and to be love.*
This coincides with the Alanon saying: We will love you until you can love yourself.
When my fellow Alanon members recite the Lord's Prayer. I accept it as their truth. I know I still have my own truth and am able to love them as fellow children of the creator.
My belief is that there is ONE creator of all. How any one of us choose to worship is why we were given free will and I am accepting of all beliefs.
I cannot change what they believe, nor can they change what I believe.
It is not a stumbling point for me in Alanon. I simply rise above the seperateness of religions and choose to think of us all as one energy that has come together for the purpose of overcoming the affects of the disease of alcoholism, which is the goal of the program..
My spirit led me to Alanon and I will be ever grateful that I listened to it, instead of the angry, resentful words of my brain.
Keep coming back, my friend.
Christy
My face to face groups do not close with the Lord's Prayer. They close with the Serenity Prayer.
Despite the fact that I was born Catholic and love the Lord's Prayer and love each and every word it symbolizes, I can see your point. I also have learned a lot about other's "religions" too that I would have not learned had I not kept an open mind. Some one of these days, I am going to read the Tao from a very controversial book.
In meetings online here, we also close with the Lord's Prayer. About two years ago, we spent two month's meetings discussing the pros and cons of this practice. Ultimately the group conscience voted to keep the Lord's Prayer as the closing. I was one of the few dissenting votes. Part of my recovery is "accepting the things I cannot change" after having had a chance to discuss my feelings pro/con about it. It's good practice for me.
However, I kept and will keep coming because "I have more in common with all of you than what separates me." I also use Paths to Recovery. There's so much information about what/how you may differ and of the course the tradition ~ Principles Above Personalities.
So I hope you will keep coming. You are not alone.
yours in recovery,
Maria123
Dear Malia,
I have been in Al-Anon a long time. Several years ago we had just this discussion. We took the issue to the area assemblies and to WSO. Through our discussion, it was decided that each group could change their closing to the serenity prayer if they wished, or to the Al-Anon Declaration, or keep the lord's prayer. Many groups still use the lord's prayer and some use the serenity prayer.
Yes, the lord's prayer is related to christian religion but, can we not all find inspiration for recovery from it??? I used to think that I could only find inspiration for recovery from Al-Anon readings and from meetings. Now I have discovered I can find inspiration from music, nature, my wonderful friends, and from people I don't even like or know.
How important is it??? We are not here to convert you. We are here for our own recovery to which we are responsible for... not another person. Al-Anon has no rules, only guidlelines. These guidelines work and I choose to use them because what I did before didn't work. I take what I like, and leave the rest, and believe me there isn't anything that I would give away in this program. It all has some meaning to me in my life regardless of it's origin. I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person. My definition of a higher power is not important. I only know I have one and that's what's most important to me.
Very glad you are here with us,
SenoraBob
f not, I would do as others suggest, and just let it go, it's just form, not function. If it truly bothers you so that you are not getting what you need from the meetings, you may need to find another meeting.
Hello Malia,
Al-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization, or Institution, does not engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any cause.
For reference these are brief quotes taken from the Al-Anon Alateen Service Manual 2004-2006
(Page 34) It is suggested that Al-Anon/ Alateen members avoid discussion of specific religious beliefs or ideas, criticism of one another or the alcoholic, gossip, or revealing intimate details of their problems. More detailed discussion may take place in private conversations between individuals before and after the meeting. (Page 52) The three major obstacles to success in Al-Anon are discussion of religion, gossip, and dominance. (Pages 195- 199) Warranty Four covers this more in depth.
(Page 47) At the end of the Al-Anon Closing Preamble (and as written at my face to face)
Will all who care to join me in the closing with the ________ prayer?
It is suggested that groups close in a manner that is agreeable to the group conscience.
As another member had replied in a similar post: every group shall be autonomous, which means they can close their meetings with any prayer they choose if the group as a whole votes to do so.
The meetings I go to it can vary from the Al-Anon Declaration, The Serenity Prayer or The Lords Prayer. A recent example from one of my face to face meetings Group Conscience where it was voted to leave the decision of the closing up to the person chairing that week. This is quite a change because The Lords Prayer had not been a part of this group in quite some time -Which then reminded me, Participation is the key to harmony (and why I try my best to attend)
I agree with others suggestions and with Lin’s, perhaps trying other meetings to see where you are most comfortable
Hope this helps.
Malia,
For me another thing that comes to mind -when I have a question regarding Al-Anon principles and such I look at it as an opportunity for me to learn more about the program. I would come here, ask an elder in program, crack open my CAL books and use the World Service Organization Website - WWW.al-anon.alateen.org. I often find the answers in the Steps, Traditions and Concepts.
-- Edited by tea2 at 15:49, 2006-10-02
I remember when this topic came up at the group conscience many years ago. Someone wanted it replaced/removed. I can understand this but loving this prayer as I do I voted to keep it. I really don't think I was being insensitive. It is true that this Christian prayer is in the New Testament & is a quote of Jesus. Allow me to challenge you to read the words & change the words into modern English. It is a prayer of deference & surrender. It notes that our Higher Power will care for us & we are not to cling to resentments. Good advice for my recovery!
As a child, I remember reciting the Lords Prayer in public school in the US. I'm a Roman Catholic & we did not recite the final verse... I stopped reciting & one of my classmates asked why I did. I felt really out of place & just responded that "we didn't say it like that". So I do not support prayer in schools. Being different is not exactly comfortable for a 2nd grader! Feeling that we are not alone & have something in common is important for face to face meetings. If you feel uncomfortable with this Christian prayer, you need to bring it up in the group conscience. If that does help - there may be other meetings that will be sensitive to your feelings
The Buddhist principle of "quieting the chatter in your head" has helped me in my recovery. If I could not (& there are many times I have been unsuccessful in doing so) ever do that I don't believe that I could hear the recovery my Higher Power was offering through my own thoughts. My Higher Power speaks to me in many ways. My own thoughts & the words of others are part of it. Lessons from different religious faiths will make us stronger. We who believe in a Higher Power have so much more in common than we have differences. Take what you like & leave the rest. My belief is that the Christian "Lord's Prayer" has incredible lessons for all whether you you are Christian or not.
I agree, The Lord's prayer seems to me to be Christian and the program is spiritual rather than Christian. Ive been to meetings and its said and to be honest it doesnt bother me, I quite like the words, especially when it says 'thy will be done' and a few other parts are pretty spiritual to me. My home group says the Serenity Prayer at the end of every meeting. I would have a think about it using the slogan 'how important is it?' and if you feel it is important to you and your motives are pure then raise it at a business meeting. The problem is that people often get used to a certain way of doing things and it can offer comfort to some especially us who have had chaotic lives and so if it means a lot to the majority then maybe you need to deal with it and maybe look for the good in it rather than the idea that its wrong. I suppose its an opportunity for tolerance. Meetings usually provide that.
Today each Al Anon Group is independent and free to change from using it.
In Al Anon no single member, dead or alive, controls what others choose to change.
Walt
My experiences are wide regarding this subject matter and I am grateful for it. I was born and raised in the Christian realm and it was not my choice tho I served it well. Coming into Al-Anon and being influence with the guidance of "A God of my choice" I left much of the influence over with the Ancient indigenous peoples I was familiar with; native americans and Kanaka Maoli the native Hawaiians. What did they know and how did they apply it? I asked and then I listened. I got out of my head where most of my life problems originated from along with my ego and listened and asked. My home group in central valley California had a procedure of allowing the membership to decide what service they wanted to do for the next upcoming meeting and one of our members chose to close the meeting. When that meeting came due he asked me to close it because he wasn't Christian and didn't know the Lord's prayer. I did not want to enable the group to not experience what could be a great spiritual growth and I told him, Do it the best way you know how. He then told me he was Blackfoot Indian. Have you ever heard a Blackfoot Indian speak with his "Creator Father" ? Even at this moment my spirit is stirred at the memory. The conversation was real and one on one tho he stood in a large group of Al-Anons looking to "change the things we could". With a renewed and deeply widened understanding I returned home to Hawaii in time and now converse and follow the directions of my Higher Power who was present at my birth and remains with me daily. Mahalo Akua Ia ka Makua kane. I don't pray in Hawaiian in our meetings because the fellowship doesn't speak in my language...I let others say their prayer or I use the Al-Anon declaration..."When anyone anywhere reaches out for help...I want the hand of Al-Anon (or AA) to always be there; and for that I am responsible". I think my HP loves that prayer. ((((hugs))))
A thorny topic at the best of times- but maybe an essential one.
Alanon grew out of a different age. Some of us may feel that it still lags behind. The group conscience arena, and the conference could be seen as a hazard zone for some of us who want change. I was told to look at the similarities and not the differences... ...very good advice!
We visited Stepping Stones a few years ago. According to her wishes there was an edition of LIFE magazine laying beside Lois's chair. It was left open- and maybe for all time- on the pages devoted to Buddhism.
The original poster here may have long gone. But what the heck. Here is Alanon we get to have grown up conversations, and we get to grow emotionally to be grown up people. Sometime I might start a thread to talk about my own spiritual journey... ...I am still on this journey... and hopefully always will be...
...ma te Atua e taiki, e manaaki... my my higher power both guard and guide me...
I agree, the decision to use the Lords prayer is an individual group decision. In fact not one of my meetings uses the Lord's prayer, instead we close with the Serenity prayer.
Alanon Traditions are by no means obsolete and Group conscious works when we keep an open mind and work it
Hi Malia ..
this has been a subject that has often upset many .. (it's my own belief that it's because it's where i think some of us might have the 'most anger or the greatest confusion .. .. but today i also believe it's possible it's 'Supposed to bring that anger confusion in general and self right thinking (inside us) to the surface .. so that we can search and then turn all that stuff (stuffed or hidden inside us) over to the 'care of our higher power however we each view that higher power ..
the steps often change 'us from the 'inside out .. (still moving through that) .. on step 4 i believe in our tradition 2 that there is but One authority a (loving god) expressing 'through our 'group conscience .. once again .. however we each choose to view that higher power ... step 4 comes later after we have worked the first 3 .. I believe in tradition 2 that One authority, a 'loving higher power, would like us to heal on every layer in every area .. (that is if we want to be healed) the lord's prayer is Perfect in my view Because it does just that .. brings everything up from the past inside us that prevents us from growing deeper acceptance of ourselves and others.. step 4 is about 'facing the past (beliefs too) in order to step more into today on step 5 .. we are validated in our own personal beliefs 'too moving through that 4th step so we learn to accept ourselves 'and others on deeper (freer) levels .. Every bug or irritable dislike (resentment) Belongs on the 4th step (IF) we are each willing to go to that level of honesty and healing inside us .. it doesn't mean we need to believe the same way others do .. it simply means we remove more of our self right beliefs of what or who is right wrong; worse or better so to speak .. I believe it's the willingness that heals us as we get out of the judging which isn't our job ..
as for alanon coming into a new age .. i have often said I don't believe a higher power in general changes .. (don't believe it needs to) believe we do .. the program wasn't broken or confused .. (we were) .. we can heal as we learn to open hearts minds and grow acceptance of ourselves and others .. (open ourselves to step 2 of possibilities) that is if we don't let the confusion or anger control us (close the doors to our minds or hearts)
it can serve a higher sometimes 'deeper purpose .. (that is if we don't get 'stuck on our 'personal church or religion judgments)
i am still working on accepting much myself .. that prayer was hard for me for years too .. but that wasn't about the prayer .. that was about me .. if i'm honest. it was about about other people who had hurt me (not god) in fact, the second i heard the words 'the lord, ironically it wasn't the lord who jumped in my mind .. quite the opposite in fact .. have a lot to keep moving through on this end but that one prayer is no longer a problem for me .. (not sure it 'ever really was .. but in all fairness if i 'thought it was it was whether it was ''or wasn't) .. .. just sayin .. we might be robbing ourselves of deeper gifts by removing what was placed there for a greater reason ..
I will reluctantly share .. I believe Lois too had a higher power expressing through her conscience . would never judge who or what is right or wrong .. (Lois may have had a 'different experience which led her to believe differently) .. i believe the unity and the spiritual foundation of the program begin with freedom to choose .. i have often said it should be chairs choice of course .. but noone in alanon should 'ever have to stuff their choice because another alanon family member doesn't like it ? this program is about changing us .. not alanon, the alcoholic, or each other .. just saying .. alcoholism is a thinking disease not just drinking disease .. even in alanon we're still a family who has been effected by a disease and any sort of domination period is a symptom of just that .. disease not recovery which is for unity .. reminds me of the saying which comes to mind 'a house divided can not stand 'forever ..
absolutely no criticism or judgement of anyone in my reply ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 06:44:11 PM
Knowing there is only ONE power that is quite capable of revealing itself in an infinite number of ways.
How can words or language matter in a "spiritual" program when words and language have no being..?? It is the importance we attach to everything that separates us.
I have found the best way to pray is from feeling, from the heart. "Audible" prayer is not necessary for Higher Power to "hear."
There is a lovely reading in Hope For Today about "scrawny carrots." {December 5th}
It really underlines our way of dealing with higher power issues, in a very direct way...
Hey Malia and Christy, I am with you two, 100 % I am a dash of metaphysics, interested in Buddhism, I do my own thing SPIRITUALLY, not religious....I am very Agnostic about the Christian described God, I just don't buy how it is portrayed, so like Christy, I do my own thing...I take what I like from many philosophies , I love reading the Dalai Lama , its about Love and being in the present IMO....I love what Christy says....Stay present and be love...I think if I can keep practicing that I can actually get rid of a lot of the scary crap that is only in my head and not in my body, and my "now" time......I just sit and let them pray however they want, but I totally agree...sometimes i thought the program was exclusionary, only embracing Christians and that put me off because I am a "mixture" and it has nothing to do with organized religion....i just do my own thing when it is prayer time at a meet....I can't change them, but I can be myself and they cannot change me.....my spirit, too, brought me to al-anon and i embrace the "take what you like and leave the rest" and the step 2, came to believe AS I UNDERSTAND IT.....I had issues with the emphasis on the G-d thing and "turning my life and will over to HIS care" NAwwwwww not for me, a male gender Higher power, so I just took what worked for me and applied the steps in a way that worked for me...the bottom line is TOTAL honesty and openess and willingness...I am as sick as my secrets and sharing them has nothing to do with any religion thing....its all about my wanting to discover me, love what I discover, BE love and cast off or at least mitigate those aspects of me that I don't want....So Malia, you are not alone in your feelings about the "too much Christian" thingy...I have felt the same, but I don't let it phase me anymore...I have my own take on what my Higher power is...the Universe is of me and I am of the Universe.......Morals and meditation...Practice what is healthy and meditate some more....staying in the present and staying in my truth based on honest evaluation of me and what I am thinking, doing, etc., where I am at right now and how I can grow..........
Okay Betty- I will quote part of it and paraphrase the rest....
This mother, one of our Alanon members says that her kids did not like cooked carrots. So she gave them raw carrots. So she shopped for the fresh bright ones- not the old pale woody ones.
When her son got to be a teen he challenged her about why she always bought 'scrawny' carrots.
At a meeting the discussion was about spiritual gifts that come in the form of something we don't really like.
"Suddenly I found new insight and understanding.
Was I resenting God' scrawny carrots"
Were the challenges and losses in my life actually gifts God had chosen carefully for me so that might grow spiritually?"
Love that too David, great share .. and Relate to that one for sure betty .. nothing scrawny about it .. i thought this was possibly the story of the snowman who thawed outside the home melting off layers and all that remained was a carrot and a clump of snow where a mountain of icy cold hard snow once stood .. many great reads we have .. definitely need to keep reading, coming back, and moving forward regardless ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Tuesday 5th of December 2017 10:19:57 PM
(((((Betty))))) well my "living life on life's terms" was very very hard for the control freak here, but I had no choice..I was being beat up by trying to force the brick walls and control the uncontrollables, so I HAD to change, not them but ME!!!! .....and I agree with you and your "inner beauty" You are loaded with inner beauty.........Love ya bunches and I am glad I am here, too
relate to being agnostic .. have been re-reading the big AA book chapter on we agnostics ..
agree with the inner beauty in betty an others here .. you have loads too mama .. have felt it through many of your 'past shares .. still moving through the ugly of the attitude in me sometimes .. the blame etc .. feel it all too well at times ..