Thanks Debb.

I wanted to share, really on a completely different tack.

At the age of 70 I currently take no meds at all. I am ready and willing to do so- when I need them. 

10 or 12 years ago I was waking in the night- with my mouth full of stomach acid. It was terrible.

Around then my higher power told me:- take away your stressors one by one- one day at a time. 

At age 17 I had chronic migraine. Looking back I had a lot more wrong with me. But I couldn't see that then.

And nor could anyone else. I went to my local doctor. She was local girl with a family like mine. She told me

that she suffered from migraine too. I was a real searcher- and really, I still am. But- by now I am closer to 

what i want now. My GP sent me to a neurologist. I got an EEG scan. My AF father actually took me to the city

for this. [My mum and dad had a great social veneer. They were both golfers. My hunch was that they never took

us kids near the golf course- because we were too scruffy.  ]

Anyway the neurologist warned me not to stay in my own home town- in case I became an alcoholic.
he put me on a course of 3 drugs- and I was taking 10 pills a day. That was okay- until I went away

on a school trip. When the pills actually ran out that was where the trouble started. It was horrific.

On my school trip- I was no sports person. So I started a debating club- and three of us nerds were able

to go and compete with a city team. 

That was where my troubles started. No one in my family was monitoring me with my medication. and no-one

in the school was aware of what was going on. I was out there on my own.

At that age- of 17 I gave up hard liquor, after one tine drinking a quart of whiskey. That- and my brush with

seeking solutions through medication. Got me thorough the '70's. I had direct access to dope, acid, heroin,

qualudes, and speed. Mostly all my friends were using one thing, or another. I was on more of a spiritual kick-

trying to find ultimate reality. I attended my first sharing meeting- of AA and Alanon when I was in the city.

I must have said something- and I was singled out by a young Alanon member. She had a chat with me. This,

and several other encounters with Alanon sowed seeds.

At age 15- at my old rural high school us boys were 12th stepped by our first own's first AA member. At that

stage he was the father of a young family. He spoke for 40 minutes. I was so amazed- in our dusty old sheep

town, that a male could get up and share, what I know now- as ESH.

That sowed a big seed. Not for AA- for me- but for the programme. as a whole. I always loved AA- and really

really appreciated the company of alcoholics in recovery.  ...

In my middle steps- I was always either mute. Or wanted and needed to rabbit on and on. At this stage, really

I think I know where to stop- and to pause.  ...

In this part of our group- MIP Alanon- I am not speaking to large numbers of people. And definitely- this is not

a popularity contest!  ...but I really do appreciate the responses I do get. 

Thanks. 

 That akronym... C-PTSD has not made it into the Alanon lexicon- yet.

There is a new and a fourth Alanon reader coming out- either late this year,

or next year- and it will be interesting what it contains!

Th term was coined by Dr Judith Herman on 1992- "Trauma and Recovery."

If you are reading this, Debb and others... I read with deep interest- your thread on releasing ourselves from the past.

Bein flocked up in past thoughts and memories was a symptom for me. Wriggling free was near to impossible. But one

day at a time- I managed to get myself into the present moment. By a miracle, really!

Reading the Jamie Malich formula- I could equate it exactly to wha we learn in Alanon- in other words.

The C 2 C reading for April 1st:-

RECOGNITION:-   OWNING IT:-   DISCHARGING IT:   [Jamie Malich]

Awareness:- Acceptance:- Action:- [Courage to Change.]

Exactly the same process, in my view.

One thing that I find with Americans a lot is that they try to find a dictionary definition "to nail things".

Not a lot wrong with that! Maybe it is in the US education system- with writing essays and reports?

But sometimes I look beyond this- towards making comparisons- between one idea and another.

I am always mindful at Alanon meetings of not getting into forbidden territory- where what we say is NOT conference approved.

And especially from the occasional enforcer in a group. Thi soften reminds me of the situation at home- where the policy was

"My way, or the highway!" "Don't do as i do- do as I say!"

Not to say that we should get completely off track- and off of the programme. Not at all.

I try, at all costs, not to be en enforcer myself!  ...

I tend to nudge, or to tweak things here... into one direction or another.

And I strongly expect other members to do the same! 

MY share:- Monday. I was at a museum lecture yesterday. And then we went onto a talk from a friend's daughter- on outdoor adventures.

At the museum talk I was wracking my brain trying to remember the name of a famous person. It just would not surface.

Then last night in bed I set to to remember. Going through the alphabet. And theme did come to me.

This would have not been much help in a quiz show! 

But I am always mindful of learned helplessness- and I still have some of this.

But I am not a quitter- never have been. I have been through terrible horrifying experiences. I do not want to go back.

Early in Alanon I heard the terms:- "pity party", "get off of the pity pot" and all about the "over me's".

I pictured an over middle aged member, in a fur stole saying these words. Easier said than done!

"Pull your socks up,' is what I heard as a kid.

Some of us [but not all] are in Alanon for life. To deal with a disease which is cunning and baffling.

And somehow we have become inheritors of it too! [This used to make me very, very angry!]

Some members do get recovery early- and easier than some. All to be encouraged.  ...

I do believe that modern knowledge and technique will help to change lives. 

I also believe that we may be able to alter the sickness of generations- one day at a time. One person at a time.

Hurt people hurt people.

Monday morning here... snow is forecast later. A covering- but not vast amounts.

We have ski-fields around us here. But there is a lock-down enforce from Australia- here won't be any tourists for a while.

These are extra-ordinary times!

Cheers! 

 Debb... Hmmm... I don't believe that PTSD has just emerged as a condition.

Rather, I think that it is being recognised as one. I believe that is explains a whole lot of things! Basic things, really. 

Uhuh... ...

As someone who has been officially diagnosed with PTSD by a mental health professional I take offense to reading that it's such a common thing or that a person can be healed of it by Alanon.

That's definitely not the case at all. It's a mental health disorder. Alanon is helpful but it can't cure PTSD anymore than it can cure Bipolar,Borderline Personality disorder or any other mental health disorder.

I think what' is such a common thing is for people to self diagnose with PTSD or cPTSD because of any kind of upset or trauma. That's way different than actually being diagnosed. Not all trauma equals PTSD,as a matter of fact most trauma doesn't cause it.

I think it's kind of dangerous to send the message to those that read the forum and members that Alanon can ease those memories out so we can heal. 

It's called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for a reason. It's a disorder,a life long one,that can't be cured but only managed. I feel if someone has been cured of it by Alanon then maybe it wasn't PTSD to begin with.

 

-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Sunday 27th of June 2021 07:15:35 PM

-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Sunday 27th of June 2021 07:24:15 PM

Sunny. I lived in a country- where C-PTSD might be diagnosed in 15 or 20 years time, maybe.

I have a therapist- who is the only person I know- who is able to deal with it in NZ.

In Alanon I learned early no two comment on professional  matters about myself, or anyone else.

We are taught to offer opinions- when asked. But not advice, in any case. 

This morning I read an old share- From Betty when was here.

It will take me a few days to absorb the information- and think it through.

  Sunny- I think there is a bit of a "shake-down" happening around this group.

I think that this is a settled happy group. Our daily readings, especially- that we

share together give us a sense of shared purpose and of unity. One of my own "strategies"

during a time of change- is to stick to  "I" -statements. Maybe not even statements.

More like comments. And to listen.  

I think it is important to bear in mind that al anon was started decades ago. Since that time the field of trauma has radicalized thinking and references to the source of codependency. Certainly for anyone living around an alcoholic who is active is an exceptional challenge. For other people it is overwhelming and confusing.

Therefore in different countries and indeed in different states the thinking about issues like grief and #enmeshment# are indeed very different. Nevertheless al.anon has and continues to be immensely successful in many countries and has helped millions of people achieve some peace of mind.

Certainly both Bill W and Lois had severe problems. They moved 52 times in 2 years. They had to live with Lois's father.
Bill W was a flawed individual the same as the rest of us are
They were extraordinarily people who managed to find a real purpose in life despite their incredibly challenging life.

Therefore given the knowledge of family of origin issues most people would not refer to issues associated with al anon as disease. There is nothing contagious about alcoholism.
The reference would be to the origins of patterns of behavior that originated in a dysfunctional family
Neither would anyone who had researched trauma use phrases like #pity pot# as a current reference because it is simply archaic.
Living with an active alcoholic is indeed a very stressful and challenging situation

I most certainly appreciate where alanon came from. I have deep live and reverence for the founders 
However I most certainly do not ascribe to the idea that I caught a #disease# from being around an alcoholic

My problems and issues started the day I was born into a brutal obvious incredibly abusive family
Surviving that experience left me with several dysfunctional.patterns of behavior that led me to choosing alcoholics as partners. I would not consider them partners today because they certainly could not cooperate on very many issues.
My problems certainly predated any encounter with an alcoholic. My problems continue long after my encounter with the alcoholic ended

Certain reference points have helped me immensely in working in ways to detach from those dysfunctional patterns. One is to understand codependency for me as part complex PTSD.
Unfortunately complex PTSD is associated with very severe child abuse. It can also be part of a spectrum of a #moral injury# caused in combat situations.

At this time complex PTSD is not part of the DSM which is the statistical source of diagnoses for mental health professionals.
Therefore some of the concepts of this disorder are not common knowledge for a general practitioner. Nevertheless the field of post traumatic stress disorder has most certainly grown and evolved on a world wide basis since 1985.

Most certainly al anon and aca and other 12 step programs have helped me along the way to discovering what tools can help me to transcend my circumstances.

I have certainly had some core issues with alanon terminology but I have to remember the program was conceived many years ago. Therefore I have to look at it like a doctor studying a disease. Generally one would want to be as informed as possible. Why would one study a text that is over 50 years old as their only reference to recovery.


In North America we live in a climate where trauma, adverse childhood experiences and psychological concepts are part of the culture. I am grateful for that just as I am grateful for the concepts outlined in al anon.
However I do take note that the sales of al anon literature have plunged. I believe that is because there is a plethora of other information out there that is less archaic and related to the concepts associated with psychology. Just as Melody Beatties book Codeoendency No more was a revolution in its tir, now there are far more relevant and engaging tracts about developments in addiction. I most certainly appreciate Nortn America is the leader in the field. Nevertheless there are experts in post traumatic stress disorder on a world wide basis. They are not reinventing the Ark

I welcome both al anon,rational recovery and the new concepts which are available on podcast and other media
I also welcome the opportunity to discuss my.own experience strength and hope in recovery.
However I am at a place where I am motivated to change a
grow in a way I never was before.
I am of course aware that there are diehard defenders of the al anon program and the original literature. I.can most cetainly relate to their passion, commitment and loyalty
My own passion is related to my own recovery and the recovery of those who come from.a similar background to mine.
I can most certainly co exist in a program with those who have a different opinion to mine because their opinions do not have to be merged with mine

For me my recovery had to be motivated by the desire to change. Therefore every day I have to challenge myself to do more and delve deeper into my process to evolve and grow. Therefore I would not say my process is #happy# on any level. My process is marked with deep ambivalence, chronic grief and immense challenges.   Change is precipitated by discomfort and in order to move away from some very destructive patterns I had to become unhappy with them. 

Maresie

Great share Maresie... ... 

 30 years ago now members of my local Alanon group met separately and studied Robin Norwood's Book, "Women Who Love Too Much"

and then Melody Beattie book "Codependent no More". I was the only male in the group- I got these books for myself and read them alone.

I am so aware of how the term "Co-dependent" grew and evolved through phases.

Home group folded, for the first time- and i went to another meeting north of here.

One time a new member came along- and began talking about codependency. She was ordered out of the meeting.

The group later folded.

My own view here is that if an Alanon meeting devoted itself to discussing CODA issues- that would be bad.

But incorporating conversations about codependency within Alanon would be okay- so long as our focus was on the

family disease. I really do think that there is a healthy boundary line here.

Because a lot of us have difficulty with boundaries- we might criss-cross that line a bit.

But that is not a big federal case!

Progress not perfection.  ...

David,I'm not at all sure what you mean by a shake-down happening or a "time of change" but hopefully it's something good and not as sinister as it sounds.

Thank you for sharing your "strategies" though. My own
strategy(well not actually a strategy but rather something I've been working on for quite a few years) is questioning things,speaking up,sharing my thoughts and opinions and feeling they are just as valuable as anyone else's. Staying true to myself and who I am and not allowing others to tell me who and how I should be.

Due to my past,being born and raised in a harmful,dangerous,isolated situation and being under the control of others,I have worked hard to find my own voice. I may not always convey things or express myself in ways that others are happy with but it is much progress to have a voice at all. I am no longer one who just nods in agreement or complies on demand. And it feels pretty good. I just need to fine tune things and find a balance though.

Maresie,that was well said. Things have really changed through the years and geared more towards the psychology aspect of things. I use what helps me in my recovery, Alanon is just one of the many ways in which I am healing. It does help me but it's not a cure all.

Robin Norwood's book was a best seller for a reason 

There are many many exlertsnon codependency and family of origin issues.  Not all of them are old 

I have tremendous respect and admiration for Melody Beattie

Life is a challenge for everyone. Beattie was abd is immensely successful. She still has had enormous challenges 

No person would he thrown out of any meeting in CA for talking about codependency 

However the newer theories about codeoendecy is that the fawning behavior and the controlling behavior originate in childhood 

For many of is fawning seems the norm. In fact when I see it in action I am able to see how skilled that behavior is. Howeve that behavior is manipulative inauthentic and superficial.

Manipulation is most certainly desperation 

I am well aware the behaviors I have out out there in the world 

Melody Beattie and Robin. Norwood were at the forefront of discussing forbidden topics 

Now those topics are the norm in North America 

This is a whole new paradigm from where Lois bega

Therefore it is important to keep gaining knowledge and skills rather than languish in the past somewhat ambiguous terms for symptoms 

Maresie 

David,I am a bit confused and would appreciate if you could explain why discussing codependency(the root of our struggles with A's) would be bad yet implying cPTSD(a mental illness) might be in the new upcoming Alanon reader,and making it sound like it would be a good thing.

That doesn't make sense to me and I am completely confused by this entire thread. I am completely lost now on what's going on here. 

Am I missing something or misunderstanding you?

 Dear Debb, and Sunny...

Tuesday Morning.

Sunny first:- I think there is a discussion in our group- about what is Alanon and what is not. A healthy one.  ...

I think it comes about around a discussion- about what are mental health issues- and what is alcoholism.

I am fairly sure that i am able to read Your shares, Debb's- which are relevant and very interesting.

Th influence of Robin Norwood and Melody Beattie on our understanding of addiction and the family. 

Essential discussion.

I started this thread- and what follows here is well worth reading- and healing for me.

Certainly not "a cure". But real progress on my journey- which I really really like sharing, from time to time.    

The issue of including complex PTSD in alanon is highly unlikely. Firstly complex PTSD is limited to extremely rare abuse issues. That would be frankly severe sexual and physical abuse. In those families the chaos us chronic.
Complex PTSD is one subset of ptsd not the only one

Post traumatic stress disorder has never been addressed in any al anon literature. Therefore why would a more rare subset of the disorder be discussed or even mentioned.

Second Complex PTSD is not officially a diagnosis at this time recognized by insurance carriers. Therefore the issue of diagnosis is most certainly a rather difficult issue. I most certainly relate to the disorder but I have related to the post traumatic stress disorder for many years.

Thirdly Alanon has never addressed sexual abuse or child abuse as far as I know. The literature tends to be focused around addiction. There must certainly can be many factors making up addiction.


That being said there are many many therapists who deal with complex PTSD worldwide. There are professional organizations who run courses, hold conferences and have numerous strategies .
We are no longer in the dark ages about dealing with this form of abuse
I most certainly have known survivors who had complex PTSD who had issues with other people in the rooms. There are issues in the rooms at all times relating to many many issues. That goes with the flow. Recovery is messy is is not a happy serene place. Growth is painful and personal growth generally comes from being uncomfortable.

There is a lot of push back with talking about severe abuse
However I also know conferences where many of the issues around abuse were addressed in workshops
I fully applaud those workshops
When ACA came about it was certainly a huge shift in 12 step programs
There are now many many shifts in addiction theory and treatment. As far as I am concerned I welcome every opportunity for people to grow and heal. I am no strict adherent to any methodology.

There are many ideas and cross currents in al anon.
Disagreement is a very healthy part of growing. I most certainly disagree with acting out .
Therefore I am not sure why any member would be censored for their opinions.

As far as I am concerned apologies are in order for removing posts that were part of a genuine desire to inform others about the nature of complex PTSD

Most certainly that was unfortunate a reflex action and absolutely an attempt to censure a very civil discussion

This is terribly unfortunate rather abrupt and completely inappropriate. I am very sorry to see that happen on this board.
There is no way to restore those posts and it is frankly wrong to single out one person in a discussion

No #take down# took place so censorship was entirely out of line.
Maresie

 Maresie...

                I have been to one course on C-PTSD- and plan to go to another at the end of October. Run by a practitioner from Berkeley in Ca.

In going I out down my affiliation as Adult Children Anonymous. My purpose in going was to practise what I learned solely on myself- and if it

worked- show, by example what might be achieved.

As for getting into more discussions on the topic of trauma... hmmm... shall put that to one side, just for now.

I have just been on a fruitless journey to a neighbouring town to see my therapist. I made it okay- in my SUV, but she did not.  So there 

was no advantage.

When Betty passed- I think we all did close ranks... and I think we shared and shouldered her strong responsibility. I strongly believe that

this group will hold up and burgeon.

People who have come along since- will find any one of us- shoulder to shoulder, rubbing shoulders... ...wishing them into the circle. 

Count on it!  ...

I am posting as a moderator, not a member. All members have the right to edit, delete, change, etc. their own posts. One of many reasons Al-Anon suggests we stay focused on Al-Anon topics is because 'outside issues' (including mental health) bring about a whole lot of opinions and less ESH.

While MIP has always encouraged open discussion, we have also encouraged trying to stay close to our common purpose - recovery.

As a member, I prefer the topics related to recovery. I prefer we share ESH vs. opinions. My last post suggested I no longer feel safe and comfortable here. No member has the right to tell another member how to think, feel, share, post, etc. I am eternally grateful for what John built for us and what Betty nurtured for us. I believe we have strayed greatly from our common purpose and from a comforting, helpful al-anon recovery forum to something much different.

As a moderator, the many off-topic and long posts unrelated to the original thread or to recovery are time-consuming and annoying. When I agreed to help moderate, our intent was to read each post and ensure it wasn't spam/contain curse words. It was easier to do as most discussions were recovery related and most shares were on-topic. This review gave me an opportunity to hear others ESH and draw upon accordingly. Not so much any more.

It is easier for me to step away and get what I need for my program and my recovery elsewhere than try to redirect this group back to what brought us together - recovery. I will leave you all with the following thoughts, not mine, but available to ponder and consider.


Three Obstacles to Success in AlAnon *

This passage has helped many groups to resolve group problems:

All AlAnon discussions should be constructive, helpful, loving, and understanding. In striving toward these ideals, we avoid topics that can lead to dissension and distract us from our goals.

1. Discussions of religion: AlAnon is not allied with any sect or denomination. It is a spiritual program, based on no particular form of religion.  Everyone is welcome, no matter what affiliation or none. Let us not defeat our purpose by entering into discussions concerning
specific religious beliefs.

2. Gossip: We meet to help ourselves and others learn and use the AlAnon philosophy. In such groups, gossip can have no part. We do
not discuss members or others, and particularly not the alcoholic. Our dedication to anonymity gives people confidence in AlAnon. Careless repeating of matters heard at meetings can defeat the very purposes for which we are joined together.

3. Dominance: Our leaders are trusted servants; they do not govern. No member of AlAnon should direct, assume authority or give advice. Our program is based on suggestion, interchange of experience, and rotation of leadership. We progress in our own way and pace. Any attempt to manage or direct is likely to have disastrous consequences for group harmony.

*This text is from the pamphlet, Alcoholism, the Family Disease

Hi IAm...

             ...this last week or so I have been looking out for you here. I sensed your absence from the group. Very much so.

I started this thread.

I have the power, as a member, to delete it and the conversation that follows.

So that would give the conversation the status of something verbal. Here today, and gone tomorrow.

That is an option. I do not think that I was the one- who started a conversation about mental health issues- as seperate from alcoholism.

But I was mindful  that some members might see that as a departure from Alanon principles.

Personally- I do not.

In amongst the topic here- a share is quoted that Betty wrote three or four years ago.

I took a big heed of that.

IAm I would hate to see you leave here.  ...

My idea of a conscience issue- I discussed with Betty- at one time. 
more like trying to find consensus- than resorting to a majority vote.

A big difference between a business issue- the nuts and bolts of a group- and a conscience issue.

I have my approach to Tradition One. That is- to raise a topic, as a thread- and to listen very hard-

and try and follow the issue through.

I am sure your posting above will come as a bomb-shell to some if us here.

So in the interests of that- I would like to leave this thread as it is- and to hear what other members have to say.

IAm... over the passing of Betty I found out a little more about you- because of the grieving we all went through.

Despite that I still highly respect your desire for anonymity- and shall maintain that forever.

PLEASE STAY. 

I most certainly appreciate that any person has a right  to delete their own posts. I have most certainly deleted posts 

Personally I do not see any issue of gossip, dominance or off topic issue in the lists that were deleted.  

Certainly recovery is painful. I.am no longer in a place where I expect life to be easy 

.That being said by life is most certainly many many times easier than it was when I came into.al.anom 

Personally I think.it is extremely healthy to have disagreements 

When I was living with an alcoholic a disagreement cause chaos 

There is no.chaos here there are  disagreement.  A disagreement is not a #take down# 

Disagreements are extremely healthy.  I can most certainly disagree in a very very healthy manner.  There is absoluteky.nothing wrong with that 

Most certainly I believe it is extremely healthy to say that I have issues with al anon. I also have gratitude for al anon 

I think if is perfectly permissible to speak about those issues 

I am extremely disappointed that a moderator would delete posts and censor a discussion. There is no censorship of the suggestion this was a #take down# .

 What #take down# there is no attempt to change al anon? 

Therefore this discussion went from being able to speak of complex PTSD to one person being accused of destroying a #happy# group. 

That is absolutely unacceptable and quite frankly 

In addition there is no semblance of a take down here. Thete are no attacks on personal integrity. There are no personal attacks on any member. There re also no claims about what or who is  recovered 

To frame a decision to censor a member as #annoying# is tactless.   

This action is deeply upsetting unfair and extremely pointed 

It speaks to favoritism and it is not really acceptable. 

I am deeply deeply disappointed with the behavior of the moderators of  this group 

Maresie 

-- Edited by Maresie888 on Tuesday 29th of June 2021 06:59:43 AM

I'm not going to JADE here but I am gonna do a bit of the "E" part.

First,I had no clue that we members can delete entire posts of our own. I did check and sure enough the option is there. I guess I never noticed it before because it's not something I would even think of doing. I do edit often though.

Second, I already said I was sorry if my thoughts/opinions offended anyone earlier in this thread. I didn't apologize for what I said because I still stand behind it.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread at all and just read,like I usually do. But when I read this:"
"That akronym... C-PTSD has not made it into the Alanon lexicon- yet.

There is a new and a fourth Alanon reader coming out- either late this year,

or next year- and it will be interesting what it contains" and the post by Debb(that was deleted) I reacted. I had read in another thread that David had self diagnosed with cPTSD and calling it an acronym and insinuating it might be in the new reader,I presumed he wasn't fully aware of what cPTSD even is. I also knew that Debb hadn't been diagnosed with it since in one thread she had said she "probably" had it in the past. So as someone that has been officially diagnosed with it,I was offended and reacted.

I still firmly stand behind what I said although it was a knee jerk reaction,especially this part:
"think it's kind of dangerous to send the message to those that read the forum and members that Alanon can ease those memories out so we can heal. ".
I do think it's dangerous,someone could read posts and maybe go off their medication or stop treatment with the belief that Alanon can cure them. Although we are not responsible for what others do I feel as a public board we do need to keep things like that in mind. I wanted to let those reading know it's not a cure,it can help some but not cure it.

The rest of the thread,as I said in an earlier post,I am confused and completely lost and none of it makes sense still today.

I do,however,now clearly get why we should stick to recovery only topics on this board. Especially avoid any mental health topics. They don't belong here,not because there's not an overlap between mental health and addiction or codependency but rather because of like what happened in this thread.

I can clearly see how off topic threads become chaotic .I do regret responding here at all,there's been other threads where cPTSD has been talked about and I have been able to avoid them,this one though,I was blown away and felt invalidated for it to be called an acronym. My mind instantly thought what? It's not at all like HALT, THINK, JADE,etc. and I reacted.

As far as any of my other posts,I think they were fine, I was mostly trying to understand what the heck this thread was even about.

All that being said,I plan on just reading the board without responding at all for awhile. I do believe Alanon is helpful to me. I don't want to take a chance on something like this happening again. And if/when I do decide to participate again,it will most likely be only in the daily readings.

I for one,am letting go of this and moving forward.

Have a good day everyone.

I absolutely believe my mental health issues brought me into a relationship with an alcoholic. Therefore for me they are certainly an al anon issue for me.
I am also completely aware my qualifier had major mental health issues. He was extremely adept at hiding
them. Since he hid them there was never an opportunity to.addres them. The result was abject chaos.  That was a soureky devastating for me 

My major life issues are about how to live in this world as a functioning adult. When I encounter certain persons like my current supervisor it is absolutely essential for me to pinpoint whether I can deal with their behavior
Chaos is no longer an option for me. Neither is smoothing things over.  I have absolutely no interest in those strategies 

One of the ways I feel validated by my.current therapist  is that he stipulates that if people are using dope or alcohol there will be chaos. That is an absolute given.   It is not a possibility it is a given. 

In my life I have to be out there in the world as an essential worker. That is no easy task and my aim is to.make my life more functional not less functional.

As far as I am concerned there was no take down on this thread. Neither was there any attempt to distort the composition of this board. I frankly resent that accusation and deeply resent the insinuation. Moreover I deeply dispute the pulling of one specific members posts. That is absolutely not acceptable.

This is not a model for recovery by any means neither is stipulating that disagreements are #annoying#
Annoying is a good step up.for me it certainly beats life threatening any day .

Furthermore I deeply resent the idea that having conflicts is somehow a travesty. That was something I had to love with when I lived with the alcoholic. He could not endure any suggestion of a different opinion. For him that was not a remote possibility.
Therefore for me insinuating that when someone had a dffe re by opinion they are #taking down the board# is more than unfortunate. It is deeply shocking and upsetting

Moreover to.suggest that board where people come with
deeply upsetting issues like premature death, rehab and financial ruin as a #happy# place is totally mind blowing.
What is #happy# about living around people who.are abjectly destroying themselves?

Quite clearly this is not a meeting of like minded people to treat another member in such an incredibly shabby fashion.

As someone in recovery I am not looking for a #happy# place where I cannot disagree with someone.
I grew up in a place where to disagree with someone invited violence
Therefore censorship over a disagreement is s very very big red flag for me. It is most certainly a very unfortunate one and a rwal eye opener about how disagreement is seen as absolutely threatening to certain persons. 

Maresie

  This group is a lifeline for me.

The F 2 F group I go to was struggling through covid.

One time one member attended meetings along for 18 months- to keep the group going. She paid the rent herself.

I will travel through slush and snow to get there- because this meeting will most likely to survive.

There is a reading in Courage to Change about enforcers in Alanon- who will sometimes dominate groups for decades.

The biggest city on our district has only one active member- a survivor. Have been to two meetings there with this person-

and both times there was one newcomer. That is all.

A much smaller city has five meetings a week- and a couple have 12 to 15 members attending. A big difference.

I know now the direction I am heading in my recovery...

I met both John and Betty in person.

I got growled and threatened by my SO- because we were supposed to be on holiday. But I spent time with them anyway.

I had a fairly sleepless night- and started to food binge yesterday. But I am okay this morning.

Two of our regular readings from our daily readers appear here.  ...

Losing a group is tragic. Just as bad as losing a family.  ...

For those who wonder, the moderation function was not designed by me or any current members. John and Betty, with perhaps others, created the role and what I described above is what we do/did. Moderation has nothing to do with censorship and I'm not aware of anyone censuring posts ever.

As stated above, every member has the ability and right to edit, remove, delete, change, any post they submit. I will also state that just because discussions flare up and opposing views are shared doesn't make one right and another wrong. Each has their own personal experience and it certainly flows better here when we share experience, strength & hope vs. opinions and suppositions.

While MIP is not formally aligned with Al-Anon WSO, it has mostly stayed true to tested and proven traditions, practices, etc. My own observation is the further we move from our intent - recovery - the less participation we have. For me, personally, I can find other groups online to discuss other topics - I come here for recovery ESH. I stepped away because my ESH was challenged by another and there is more off-topic discussion than recovery related discussion lately. Easily stated - I'm not getting what I need here so am seeking it elsewhere.

I spoke my truth. I am not comfortable with the variety of off-topic subjects. I can share as a moderator that others have suggested the same to me privately. If mental health issues are part of your ESH, that's completely different than diagnosing self and/or your qualifier. It is not my intent to tell another what to share yet it is my right as a member to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean.

David - with all due respect, you opened this topic with a nebulous title and the 2nd post is all about mental health illness. While it is your desire or your opinion that MH topics aren't contrary to Al-Anon, the program and those who came before us vehemently disagree. Also, I don't know what you meant or intended to say 'you know me better because of our grief over Betty'. I will say that you don't know me any more than anyone else here. I am just another person in recovery doing my program as best I can. I respect and pursue anonymity because it's paramount to a successful recovery program and I like my privacy.

SF - I did not see Debb's posts before she removed them. I hope you don't assume I negate your experience in any way - I respect your thoughts, your diagnosis and your recovery efforts/program. I applaud you for speaking your truth and working on you! I also thank you for hearing what I wrote - there is less conflict when we focus on our shared intent - recovery.

Marasie - I truly struggle to relate to your share. Perhaps your expectations of Al-Anon recovery and mine are just way different.

In general, I have resigned from moderation, effective immediately. Like most others, I have enough RL (real life) issues to work on, deal with and heal from that I will not subject myself to this kind of drama/chaos online. Some appear to prefer to live in the past and continue to rehash what's been. I prefer to stay in the present, using the past to learn from and not as justification for my present. My reality is that other perfectly imperfect humans will let me down, disappoint me and the like - yet I still have the choice each and every day if I give away my power or focus on me/my joy. I choose me/my joy as that's what I've been taught to do in recovery.

I too have taken a 'backseat' to the discussions. I will always be grateful for how MIP worked well for my recovery until it did not. My hope for me and all is that you find the tools that give you the priceless gift of serenity and sanity, one day at a time.

& to clarify...

                    some Alanon groups have a regular conscience meeting once a month.

In different parts of the world, sometimes, words can mean different things.

This group does not have a regular conscience meeting.

I used the words "Shake-down". Not "Take Down".

Two completely different things.

"Sort out" might have been a better choice of words.

I come from a rural culture- certain words mean certain things.

"Clarify" might be a big city word that means the same thing.  ...

I am here 

I.sm.truly very sorry that you have chosen to resign as moderator 

I am very sorry that you felt that was necessary because of the current circumstances. 

I.am sorry for any part that I had in making that decision 

I appreciate that many people have enough of their own issues

I.also appreciate the service you gave to this grouo.over many years 

It is truly a very sad day when a moderator resigns. However. I.most certainly respect your boundaries and your choices

I apologize for putting you in that position 

Maresie 

    Growing up I stuck up for my kid sister- and I got badly treated for this. Every time I try to stick up for another person- this

seems to happen again and again.

In many groups the cross-talk guideline is applied to personal shares.

In our recommended closing we usually say:-

"In closing, I would like to say that the opinions expressed here were strictly this of the person who gave them.

Take what you like, and leave the rest." .

Please 

-- Edited by Maresie888 on Wednesday 30th of June 2021 06:31:03 PM

 Just to clarify- and we can read what we sat here, as opposed to a face to face conversation.

No-where have i said that Alanon could cure me. On it's own at the very least.  ...

I always tell members that we work in tandem with trusted professionals. And very strictly

I do not comment on other people's diagnosis, and things related to their treatment.

I do talk about my own- and expect the same boundary.

I would not have gotten this far without Alanon. "The priceless gift of serenity."

For me- I see the person who starts a thread- as the "chair".

In our groups here in NZ- we respect the chair highly.

No-one would ever cross-talk the chair, let alone another member. Respect.

If something, at a meeting was out of order- then a member would be taken aside afterwards- and things discussed.

They have the right of reply. The right to question. Because, as we know- either person could be wrong. Or neither. Or both.

I have a lovely therapist. She has an overseas practise, as well as a local one. A therapist who is a physiotherapist.

But I would never ever dare to pin up her link here. Or actually recommend her in the body of a meeting.

If a member heard my share and identified- and spoke to me after the meeting- I might. Just might.

As a kid I was badly neglected. I would get out of a wet bed in the morning, and crawl into a damp stinky bed at night.

In my view i got pneumonia. I did not know for sure- because I wasn't taken to a doctor or went to hospital.

One day at school my teacher told me to go to the health clinic. The district nurse wanted to see me.

So I left the class and went along. And I waited. I am still waiting. 

But after that i could not run and play. I could do field work, a little later, when I was 12- and became good at that.

Fast forward- I used to have suicidal thoughts, Chronic ones. My two uncle killed themselves. And then my spiritual advisor,

and Anglican vicar shot himself. But the seeds of despair were sown well before that.

Some Alanon members say- that we are not allowed to talk about old stuff.

If you think this share is off-topic- please refer to the MIP Alanon Business Board. Bring it up there.

Please do not interrupt me here. It is a gross abuse of tikanga [etiquette] here in Ao-NZ.

Not to mention Alanon etiquette, in my view. The cross-talk guideline.

Through my therapist I got breathing properly.

For six or eight weeks I coughed up loads and loads of gunk.

My death wish went away and I began to think clearly- for the first time since I was a kid.

Please respect my ESH.  

"In closing, I would like to say that the opinions expressed here were strictly this of the person who gave them.

Take what you like, and leave the rest." 

Thanks so much for reading- it means a whole lot to me.  ...