hi there, hoping someone can answer a question... i've heard that alcoholics are often narcissistic but i'm wondering if it's fair to say that the spouses of alcoholics are often narcissistic? if so, would appreciate any type of literature that points to this.
thank you
Debb said
May 7, 2021
Hello Jellybeans!
I have done some research on the subject and it is an interesting one!
Welcome to MIP jellybeans - glad you found us and glad that you shared. NPD is a mental illness and many label another without a formal diagnosis. There is no direct correlation between the mental illness and alcoholism/addiction. I believe that many on both sides of the disease exhibit traits of the disease, and most are in denial about that.
I have no doubt fingers are pointed by both sides towards the other. It is in recovery that I found I am not trained to label anyone else anything else and shy away from using formal terms to define others not formally diagnosed.
This list is interesting:
10 Signs of Covert Narcissism
Sensitivity to criticism.
Passive aggression.
Self-criticism.
Shyness.
Fantasies.
Other mental health issues.
Long-held grudges.
Envy.
In fairness to your question, yes! Spouses of an alcoholic can possess the same traits.
Maresie888 said
May 8, 2021
There is certainly a wealth of information on narcissism on You tube. Certainly many partners of narcissists are referred to as codependent. That is not necessarily a label
Being diagnosed with mental illness is of course a professional job. Nevertheless observing certain traits is not something that is prohibited.
Most certainly the qualifier who brought me to al anon had narcissistic traits. He also had a long term chronic addiction
In turn I had certain traits that led me to be susceptible to being in a relationship with an alcoholic/addict
Addressing those traits has certainly changed my life. No professional diagnosed me with those traits. I did not wait around for that
What is discouraged in al anon is labeling other members with those traits or making generalizations about them.
Nevertheless the focus of al anon is the recovery of the member not the alcoholic. So certainly being willing to address those traits is a sign you are aware you have issues and are taking full responsibility to address them
Personally I do not refer to those traits as part of any #disease# However how you refer to your personal traits is u to you. Anyone who is seeking recovery and willing to adhere to certain guidelines is most welcome in al anon
Welcome
Maresie
Enigmatic said
May 8, 2021
Hello Jelly, welcome...
Hmmm...Spouses of alcoholics can be anything alcoholics can, or demonstrate any healthy or deviant behavior or tendencies. They may also be alcoholics...or not.
Alcoholics are humans first, so come in as many different packages of personality sets as the rest of us, just with the added (eventually unwanted) disease or illness of alcoholism. As it turns out, spouses or friends of alcoholics often end up demonstrating their own array of maladaptive behaviors as severe or more than the alcoholics.
Alanon is a spiritual program of recovery that helps those concerned about someone else's drinking sift through their feelings and concerns without feeling they have to 'fix' the alcoholic's problems/behaviors.
al-anon.org is a great place to start, come back anytime, glad you stopped in
mamalioness said
May 9, 2021
Just in my experience, and please take what you like and leave the rest, but narcissistic personality disorder is a disease with no prejudices in other words Ive seen alcoholics with it I have seen non-alcoholics with it basically with the narcissist its all about them and they just dont have empathy or compassion and feelings towards another person its all about them and their feelings and their needs and their wants and To say they are difficult to live with is an understatement. I do believe that my sperm donor was a narcissist with five stars because he was the type that was entitled no matter what the damage he did to another he was entitled. He could never see things through anothers eyes because he just did not care. He had a very smart mind but absolutely no conscience to run it. Everything he touched he either soiled or took away from or flat out destroyed. I believe it happened because his mother enabled him so much when he was a child he was never told no you cannot do this or no that is not right and he became what he was. I am sure my nanny when she saw the adult form of him was dismayed at what a terrible personality he was in that his own siblings avoided him. It is what it is and I dont waste my time trying to figure him out. The research I have done on the disorder all points in that direction regarding him they just dont have any empathy towards another person and life for that matter. Not all of them commit the horrible crimes that he did but all the research that I have done all the reading I have done, it is very very difficult to live with one because they just cannot empathize or relate to another persons feelings. Please take what you like and leave the rest I am not a psychologist but I have done a lot of research on the different antisocial and personality disorders because I feared that I might because of all that I went through, I fear that I might be like that because when I first got into recovery it was all about seeing me, see me, see me, but I was just hemorrhaging emotionally and at first I was very needy and very self-centered but that gradually went away as I learned I was not alone in my suffering and I also felt compassion and empathy for my fellow travelers and so that ruled me out as a narcissist I am just someone with complex PTSD and GAD and I also have trouble with attention deficit but other than that I do know that I feel empathy and compassion towards others. I dont have to have experienced their type of pain to acknowledge them and to feel compassion and empathy towards their struggles and I desire to try to encourage others to help themselves. Used to be I thought I could fix everybody because I was too screwed up to fix myself but now I work on myself and I share that healthy self love with others with loving detachment and I say loving detachment because as a codependent, it is very, I have to watch myself not to get to absorbed in another persons struggles but to just be loving and detached and help them to help them selves and if they dont want to help themselves I can detach with love. Please take what you can use and leave the rest
Maresie888 said
May 9, 2021
Jellybeans.
One caveat I would mention is narcissists often feign empathy and compassion. In fact in so many ways they have very finely honed social skills. They can be remsrkably.comolimentary. they hone in on people very intensely. That intense interest can appear very appealing to someone who needs attention
However they have their dark side. As much as they hone on your needs they are ready to.atack at a moments notice
One.minure you are their best soulmate the next s fat hopeless mess. In fact they relish celebrating how well they can denigrate others. They heap insult on top of insult. The insults come spilling out followed by a litany about how.compassiionae
Then of course theh will denigrate you to everyone within ear shot
That is quite the contrast the one of a kind soulmate to a worthless fat monster in the same sentence.
Narcissists of course are remarkably wounded. They manqge to hide those wounds (or rathe4 disguise) .them retty skillfully. However since they are really completely uninterested in recovery theh cannot help but to lash out whenever the occasion presents itself. That is a guarantee.
The other issue of course with narcissists is that they are remarkably jealous and hugely resentful. Their resent you for breathing. They collect those resentments like fine China. It fuels their justification for behaving in such an appalling fashion. Of course they can always justify these attacks. After all it is always someone else's fault.
Everyone else is the problem.with the narcissist. Their self model is they are the pinnacle of the community
I am.so grateful to be.at a point in my life where I have boundaries and can find ways to navigate around them
Of course when you know a.narcissist and can acknowledge how incredibly abusive they are they are.not exactly happy about it. But then desperate character assassination is their forte and they practice it religiously. Their accounts of victimization are revolutionary but without any ability to reflect. That mechanism is.beyond.their pay grade.
Recovery is indeed about learning certain traits in others and.setting boundaries. Reflection can be extremely painful but extremely rewarding. A narcissist will never know.that process it might involve effort
There are certain persons whose.behavior.is so.out of control they have absolutely zero self reflection
Addicts and alcoholics often of course have zero self reflection. They are after all using substances to manage their feelings. Having feelings is part of self reflection. They skip those parts.
Therefore narcissists can indeed appear to be the model of the community. Sweet kind.complimentary, attentive and generous. Unfortinately that is the surface. Underneath that is extremely manipulative destructive behavior
When the average unsuspecting person comes across a narcissist they are.of course impressed by their surface presentation. They they get the attack and dismissive behavior
That being first you are their soul mate then totally worthless and beneath contempt
Anyone would of course be confused upset and disturbed by such an attack. That is someone who is not in recovery. If you are in recovery and making progress you know exactly who they are and what they are capable of.
Glad you dropped by
There are some pretty impressive techniques for having to work.around narcissists. They really help.
Of course we also have to remember narcissists rarely get better. They are simply totally incapable of putting in the work necessary to recover it is beneath them. However they always have an excuse for their inability to grow. It is always someone.elses.fault.
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Sunday 9th of May 2021 11:48:52 AM
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Sunday 9th of May 2021 11:57:52 AM
SunnyFrogs said
May 9, 2021
NPD is a diagnosable mental disorder. If that's what this topic is about then yes either an alcoholic or the spouse of one can have it. Just the same as either can have any other mental illness there is.
If this topic is about narcissistic traits the same answer applies.
We all have traits of it at one time or another in our lifetime.
That being said,I personally feel alcoholism can make everyone seem to have traits of a mental illness,whether it's the alcoholic or the spouse. That's because of the way we behave in reaction to it.
DavidG said
May 11, 2021
Good topic, Jellybeans. I seem to think that narcissism is a word most often used in the USA, and not so much elsewhere.
In our national treatment centre they talked about Queen Baby, or King Baby syndrome- which I think was the same thing as narcissism.
I have seen some people in my world who were unduly self-centred.
I repeat the following fairly often- so it must be important to me. At an Alanon on meeting some time some time ago someone said:- "It's a selfish programme." [I still know this person personally now...]...
At the time the person said this- I thought:- "No, not for me."
"I don't want to be self centred. Want to be centred on self."
So maybe this insight came from my higher power?
Slowly over time I have come into self-care, and self esteem, which I had little or nothing of. ...
a4l said
May 12, 2021
I've noticed the subject has absolutely taken off over the last give to ten years. That and gaslighting. Maresie your description in total honesty sounds exactly like me in the worst parts of my marriage. I was quite insane in parts of it. I guess we as humans like to label things including people. I know I often analyse whether certain people are narcissistic when I don't like them. I did once date someone who I could describe as a narcissist. But I think "unwell" is a better description because I'm no psychologist and thank God his inventory isn't mine to take not even to assess the threat risk to me, not anymore.
Maresie888 said
May 12, 2021
Gaslighting was indeed a speciality of my former roommate. I no longer give him the ammunition to shoot me down and annihilate me
Learning boundaries has for me been step by.step.
Discovering some people I have known for years wanted to harm me directly was painful
Dodging the bullets became possible
Maresie
DavidG said
May 12, 2021
...gaslighting... Tell me about it!
The theory is that a narcissist will tee up with a codependent- and they will feed off of each others dysfunction.
I have been there and done that. It is diabolical. ...
a4l said
May 12, 2021
David G: agreed!
Maresie888 said
May 13, 2021
David
I would not agree that I ever fed off any narcissist
Certainly I know narcissists who look.for others to pray on
If they cannot prey on you then they tend to discard
There is no.mutiuality there
In addition most narcissists have a real ve vengeful part
For me as someone with complex PTSD the codependency part was survival as a child. As an.adult it was a distinct liability
I appreciate that many people have difference concepts of codependency.
Personally there was nothing workable for me in relationships where I did not have clear boundaries
hi there, hoping someone can answer a question... i've heard that alcoholics are often narcissistic but i'm wondering if it's fair to say that the spouses of alcoholics are often narcissistic? if so, would appreciate any type of literature that points to this.
thank you
I have done some research on the subject and it is an interesting one!
www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/related-topics/narcissism-and-alcohol/
I have no doubt fingers are pointed by both sides towards the other. It is in recovery that I found I am not trained to label anyone else anything else and shy away from using formal terms to define others not formally diagnosed.
This list is interesting:
10 Signs of Covert Narcissism
Sensitivity to criticism.
Passive aggression.
Self-criticism.
Shyness.
Fantasies.
Other mental health issues.
Long-held grudges.
Envy.
In fairness to your question, yes! Spouses of an alcoholic can possess the same traits.
There is certainly a wealth of information on narcissism on You tube. Certainly many partners of narcissists are referred to as codependent. That is not necessarily a label
Being diagnosed with mental illness is of course a professional job. Nevertheless observing certain traits is not something that is prohibited.
Most certainly the qualifier who brought me to al anon had narcissistic traits. He also had a long term chronic addiction
In turn I had certain traits that led me to be susceptible to being in a relationship with an alcoholic/addict
Addressing those traits has certainly changed my life. No professional diagnosed me with those traits. I did not wait around for that
What is discouraged in al anon is labeling other members with those traits or making generalizations about them.
Nevertheless the focus of al anon is the recovery of the member not the alcoholic. So certainly being willing to address those traits is a sign you are aware you have issues and are taking full responsibility to address them
Personally I do not refer to those traits as part of any #disease# However how you refer to your personal traits is u to you. Anyone who is seeking recovery and willing to adhere to certain guidelines is most welcome in al anon
Welcome
Maresie
Hmmm...Spouses of alcoholics can be anything alcoholics can, or demonstrate any healthy or deviant behavior or tendencies. They may also be alcoholics...or not.
Alcoholics are humans first, so come in as many different packages of personality sets as the rest of us, just with the added (eventually unwanted) disease or illness of alcoholism. As it turns out, spouses or friends of alcoholics often end up demonstrating their own array of maladaptive behaviors as severe or more than the alcoholics.
Alanon is a spiritual program of recovery that helps those concerned about someone else's drinking sift through their feelings and concerns without feeling they have to 'fix' the alcoholic's problems/behaviors.
al-anon.org is a great place to start, come back anytime, glad you stopped in
Jellybeans.
One caveat I would mention is narcissists often feign empathy and compassion. In fact in so many ways they have very finely honed social skills. They can be remsrkably.comolimentary. they hone in on people very intensely. That intense interest can appear very appealing to someone who needs attention
However they have their dark side. As much as they hone on your needs they are ready to.atack at a moments notice
One.minure you are their best soulmate the next s fat hopeless mess. In fact they relish celebrating how well they can denigrate others. They heap insult on top of insult. The insults come spilling out followed by a litany about how.compassiionae
Then of course theh will denigrate you to everyone within ear shot
That is quite the contrast the one of a kind soulmate to a worthless fat monster in the same sentence.
Narcissists of course are remarkably wounded. They manqge to hide those wounds (or rathe4 disguise) .them retty skillfully. However since they are really completely uninterested in recovery theh cannot help but to lash out whenever the occasion presents itself. That is a guarantee.
The other issue of course with narcissists is that they are remarkably jealous and hugely resentful. Their resent you for breathing. They collect those resentments like fine China. It fuels their justification for behaving in such an appalling fashion. Of course they can always justify these attacks. After all it is always someone else's fault.
Everyone else is the problem.with the narcissist. Their self model is they are the pinnacle of the community
I am.so grateful to be.at a point in my life where I have boundaries and can find ways to navigate around them
Of course when you know a.narcissist and can acknowledge how incredibly abusive they are they are.not exactly happy about it. But then desperate character assassination is their forte and they practice it religiously. Their accounts of victimization are revolutionary but without any ability to reflect. That mechanism is.beyond.their pay grade.
Recovery is indeed about learning certain traits in others and.setting boundaries. Reflection can be extremely painful but extremely rewarding. A narcissist will never know.that process it might involve effort
There are certain persons whose.behavior.is so.out of control they have absolutely zero self reflection
Addicts and alcoholics often of course have zero self reflection. They are after all using substances to manage their feelings. Having feelings is part of self reflection. They skip those parts.
Therefore narcissists can indeed appear to be the model of the community. Sweet kind.complimentary, attentive and generous. Unfortinately that is the surface. Underneath that is extremely manipulative destructive behavior
When the average unsuspecting person comes across a narcissist they are.of course impressed by their surface presentation. They they get the attack and dismissive behavior
That being first you are their soul mate then totally worthless and beneath contempt
Anyone would of course be confused upset and disturbed by such an attack. That is someone who is not in recovery. If you are in recovery and making progress you know exactly who they are and what they are capable of.
Glad you dropped by
There are some pretty impressive techniques for having to work.around narcissists. They really help.
Of course we also have to remember narcissists rarely get better. They are simply totally incapable of putting in the work necessary to recover it is beneath them. However they always have an excuse for their inability to grow. It is always someone.elses.fault.
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Sunday 9th of May 2021 11:48:52 AM
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Sunday 9th of May 2021 11:57:52 AM
If this topic is about narcissistic traits the same answer applies.
We all have traits of it at one time or another in our lifetime.
That being said,I personally feel alcoholism can make everyone seem to have traits of a mental illness,whether it's the alcoholic or the spouse. That's because of the way we behave in reaction to it.
In our national treatment centre they talked about Queen Baby, or King Baby syndrome- which I think was the same thing as narcissism.
I have seen some people in my world who were unduly self-centred.
I repeat the following fairly often- so it must be important to me. At an Alanon on meeting some time some time ago someone said:- "It's a selfish programme." [I still know this person personally now...]...
At the time the person said this- I thought:- "No, not for me."
"I don't want to be self centred. Want to be centred on self."
So maybe this insight came from my higher power?
Slowly over time I have come into self-care, and self esteem, which I had little or nothing of.
...
Learning boundaries has for me been step by.step.
Discovering some people I have known for years wanted to harm me directly was painful
Dodging the bullets became possible
Maresie
...gaslighting... Tell me about it!
The theory is that a narcissist will tee up with a codependent- and they will feed off of each others dysfunction.
I have been there and done that. It is diabolical.
...
David
I would not agree that I ever fed off any narcissist
Certainly I know narcissists who look.for others to pray on
If they cannot prey on you then they tend to discard
There is no.mutiuality there
In addition most narcissists have a real ve vengeful part
For me as someone with complex PTSD the codependency part was survival as a child. As an.adult it was a distinct liability
I appreciate that many people have difference concepts of codependency.
Personally there was nothing workable for me in relationships where I did not have clear boundaries
Maresie