My daughter is set to be getting out of Rehab in about a week and a half. She is talking about a sober living home, but doesn't have a job so I would have to assist her. I cannot find any information about costs no matter who I contact. Does anybody have any experience with this? She is telling me it's like $400 a week! That's a full out mortgage payment - I can't believe a home shared between 6-9 people would cost $1,200 a month per resident. I can help her if it's like $400 a month until she gets a job and gets situated - anybody know anything about this?
Thanks in advance
Debb said
Apr 23, 2021
Mamamary1964, I do not have any ESH concerning the move to a Sober Living Home,
but I did find that there is financial assistance, I listed one of the resources that I found
Check your states department of human services for local assistance.
It is good news that your daughter is about to finish her rehab!! Best of luck to her, you
and your family!!
-- Edited by Debb on Friday 23rd of April 2021 01:54:28 PM
Maresie888 said
Apr 23, 2021
Some of those places take medical
They all do not necessarily have to charge
Is she on disability that helps
Maresie
DavidG said
Apr 23, 2021
The founder of these MIP groups, John F. also ran a modest recovery home in his town in South Carolina. He has passed now- but he would have known the score.
The disease of addiction is cunning and baffling.
This is why we close ranks and join forces in order to deal with it. :)
-- Edited by DavidG on Friday 23rd of April 2021 03:36:34 PM
Iamhere said
Apr 23, 2021
Mary - I do have experience with sober living facilities as both of my sons stopped by after rehab. Many US locations have Oxford Houses. They have a locator service on their official website. Here's the website for your state:
You can drill down - Male vs. Female, zip code/city, etc.
Oxford Houses all have rules including finding a job and paying your way. There are curfews, chores, meeting requirements, etc. and it's run diplomatically (elections, board, etc.) Vacancies tend to vary for city, state, female, season, etc.
Halfway houses and sober living houses are independent all with their own rules. I know less about these simply because by the time mine tried these, they were more independent.
I've never heard of a sober living, transitional living or oxford home costing more than $100 +/- a week. Most do require a deposit and all are furnished. Most desire you to bring your own bedding if you have it; they often have left-behind if you don't. I have also never heard of a step-down place that doesn't require the person to get gainful employment as fast as possible and pay their own way.
Catholic Charities will assist with deposits, food, etc. As with all things, I had to figure out what my boundary was regarding help with/in recovery. I had no problem covering the deposit and buying food (each buys their own groceries) but strongly encouraged mine to pay their own weekly rent. I was willing to help with rides to work but encouraged bus route/Uber as Plan A with me/us being Plan B.
There's no perfect way to be of service to a newly sober person - my experience is the less I could entwine, the easier it was for me to stay detached and to allow them to grow/learn in their own journey/recovery. I do know that I made it clear to the treatment center that if I was to be a part of the transition process then I desired to have input into the transition plan. All treatment centers I know work with the patient/person on a transition plan. Lastly, I learned early on to not give mine pocket money - it just never worked out well.
Hope this helps. Hang in there!
JerryF said
Apr 23, 2021
Very helpful IAH...I know she can also talk to the administration of the house and get answers. Prayers for the addict. (((hugs)))
Maresie888 said
Apr 24, 2021
I think the issue for me with an addict particularly when they were getting out of rehab was the $#demands#
That is the star demands
They certainly need a transition plan m
For those of us in their #support group# we need our own transition plan. Boundaries are critical with a recovering alcoholic
Then there are the expectations. They have to go to meetings. Then they have to find a source of income. Then they have a support group..
That is a very big transition
Al anon can really help. Navigating that territory is not for the faint of heart m
Navigating that territory you need some forms of guidance. Having a sponsor is extremely helpful
Maresie
mamamary1964 said
Apr 26, 2021
Thanks for all your advise guys. I did find sober living for her, but now she doesn't want to go, claims they all use and she wants to live by herself. She believes I should rent her an apartment for a couple of months (LOL like that's gonna happen). Basically she is 10 days shy of getting out, doesn't want to return home (apparently she hates her father and can't live with him because somewhere in her twisted drug induced mind he wasn't there for her as a father and that means he hates her) This weekend was brutal with the calls to pick her up (which I refused, I even hung up on her twice). She is threatening to come home and live in her car (don't know how as it is sitting in my driveway pretty banged up with (2) wheels that need replacement) she's also mad that I won't "fix" her car for her. Bottom line, I don't believe that she is anywhere near recovery and I am stepping back and letting her crash AGAIN. Not much I can do here, but I do thank you for listening.
Mary
Debb said
Apr 26, 2021
Mary, it sounds like you do have your hands full, but be proud, because it also sounds like you have this situation in the right light and mindset!!
Please let us know how you are doing going forward because we are all here for you!! {{HUGS}}
Maresie888 said
Apr 26, 2021
I don't know how long the rehab was
There is definitely an issue with the aftercare
Some people do indeed do well for a while
I can imagine delving into recovery during a pandemic might be difficult
Nevertheless having firm boundaries is a real art
I am glad you can hold fast to them
Iamhere said
Apr 26, 2021
(((Mary))) - it is in this program that I learned Yes and/or No are complete sentences. I loved hearing about JADE when I arrived - don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. It takes a long, long while (different for each person) for the brain to find some level of 'normal' when an alcoholic/addict gets sober. There's no doubt that she's full of fear and the disease is most likely still in control of her 'plans, words, etc.'
In my situation, we did try the return home - it did not work. Therefore, we made a stay at a sober house a requirement to return home. Funding anything beyond deposit for a sober living place for us was a hard No. This disease tells the user to isolate, and we all know that isolation isn't a healthy long-term choice/strategy.
My youngest did live in a car in our driveway once. It did not go well. After watching an assortment of 'friends' stop by at all hours of the day/night, I got in one day (my car, had spare keys) and drove the car with him in it, passed out to the Adult Detox Center. I parked the car in the lot, walked away with the keys and called a friend to pick me up.
He came to with staff and the police knocking on the car. They gave him the option of coming inside the detox center or going to jail. He opted for the detox. I went back and got the car later. Until my boys felt the exact consequences of choosing active disease over recovery, there was not much change. I have gotten so drastic that I've blocked them when in detox/treatment/jail. I just love me too much today to engage with another who's only interested in self-serving and self-destruction. I will move heaven and earth in support of recovery; I will love them from across the street, city, country before I'll support the disease in any form.
Keep doing what you're doing - 10 days in plenty of time to still have a change of heart (daughter). It's certainly enough time for you to talk to her counselor and state what your boundaries are, plain and clear. My sons heard 'things' way better from the staff than they did from me/us. (((Hugs)))
mamamary1964 said
Apr 27, 2021
Iamhere - she doesn't want to go to sober living or come home so a contingency isn't going to help. She wants me to rent her an apartment until she gets on her feet - in other words, she wants to isolate and risk relapse immediately upon returning home. Even on her way to rehab she said she will never stop smoking weed - so this is out of my hands. Offered her to return home - under our conditions and/or 2 months of help with sober living. She'd rather do her own thing so I guess we will take it from there. She hasn't contacted me again since I told her no and her therapist is being very evasive so it's now in God's hands (always was really wasn't it?)
Iamhere said
Apr 27, 2021
Hang in there Mary....it's taken me a lifetime to realize that what I want and what I need are 2 different things most of the time. Take good care of you and know we're here for you if/as needed...
The staff may be hesitant to speak with you if your daughter has not approved for them to do so. My sons had to sign releases once they were adult age for any discussions to happen. Just a thought as to why they might feel evasive to you - it's all about HIPAA compliance and releases. (((Hugs)))
mamamary1964 said
Apr 27, 2021
Oh no she signed the release, I'm just calling them out on their lack of communication and reported her to the her superior for not returning calls or email. It's all good though, my daughter will only heal when she truly wants to heal. I've been down this road with my husband and son as well, so my skin is thick.
Maresie888 said
Apr 27, 2021
I have had my own issues with rehabs
However they are always covered because their clients are really out of it.
They get away with so much. Like a lot of places they claim incredible results too
I am sorry you had to endure this
If I met someone going to rehab now I would say let me know when you have 6 months sober
mamamary1964 said
Apr 28, 2021
Maresie888 - it is really sad because it seems all these places are doing is capitalizing on a true pandemic - substance abuse addiction - more and more insurance companies are covering the stays, so they are making money hand over fist yet the addicts are not getting the real help they need.
Maresie888 said
Apr 28, 2021
Some places seem to be better than others Hazelton is good
They tend to be ridiculously expensive
That being said I have met alcoholics who did well after rehab. It sticks for some
SunnyFrogs said
Apr 28, 2021
My son is currently in rehab, had it set up to enter sober living upon his release but has changed his mind.
It makes me sad but I know that ultimately his sobriety is up to him,and him only. Not all rehabs are bad,there's some good ones out there. I don't like to make a blanket statement about all of them. I am not sure about the one my son is in but I do know the hard work is mainly on him. The rehab may be a stepping stone , a place to give him tools he needs and education about his disease but he will have to be the one that makes the choice to continue seeking help or not.
It's kinda like Alanon, I know I have to do the work in order to make changes. If it isn't working I can't really blame alanon for that.
Maresie888 said
Apr 29, 2021
I.have met many.people who.went to.rehabs. i.even knew quite well someone who.worked at a rehab. One of the meetings I regularly attended was in a well known rehab. Thry had a stellar reputation.
Certainly.sime of them are better than others. However my experience of some people coming from rehabs like Hazelton is that they are more articulate about their core issues
I mosr certainly know people who went to rehabs in the City I currently live in. Their recovery stuck. Thry did however have a number of relapses. Nevertheless I would not say they are peo people I share my recovery with.
For me personally I have had to go outside of all anon. My issues of course are far beyond codependency. Therefore when people get fairly rigid about the steps and the traditions I am somewhat mystified. There were many reasons I was drawn to the alcoholic. There were many reasons I stayed with the alcoholic. I had to unearth them in order to understand my fatal.atrractuon to peope who.choose to self destruct so compulsively. I an glad other people might not have had to go that far. I had to and al anon only took.me so far.
I wish I coukd recover entirely within the confines of al.anon. unfortunately or fortunately that is not possible for me. Boundaries have taken a lot of work for me. Dysregulation (which I believe absolutely is one of the core civdutins of addiction) was avid still is one of my core issues. Dysregulation did not evaporate for and overnight. Indeed fught/flight which was one reason I survived becme the babe of my existence as an adult.
I am really glad that al.anon.works so well for some people. I am gratified that certain people do recover after rehab. Nevertheless for me personally my boundaries have to be carefully honed to deal with anyone coming out of rehab. Their expectations of others are way way way off. The way that many rehabs are structured is based on making immense demands on the slcoholics support system. They are rigid demanding and dismissive. There is zero respect in their communication. I am no longer willing tk.tolerare thstvstyke of communication. That is one reason that I do not tolerate well th he phrase #enabler#
After my own experiences I would not personally deal with a someone coming out of rehab or any institution. I simply no longer have the bandwidth to do it. I admire anyone who would even consider it.
For me personally the support for families of those in rehab is minimal the issues are rarely discussed. The feelings of the family.for those in rehab are glossed over. There is a desrthnof services for them
In some upscale rehabs like The Meadows they do indeed have a parallel track for the support system. That might be one way to tolerate all those mixed emotions.
I know we have had many treads for people dealing with significant others in rehabs. Those particular threads did a great deal for me in separating out my feelings. I welcome them.
As a result of that processing I most certainly have a great deal of empathy for those who have significant others in regab. On many occasions dealing with an alcoholic is an absolute double bind. Rehab is most certainly one of them
Maresie
Maresie
mamamary1964 said
Apr 29, 2021
Maresie - I feel you. I have been living with active addicts for 15+ years (and my husband was an alcoholic prior to our wedding day - he did quit drinking with the help of AA and a great sponsor in 1986 but picked up again right after experiencing the nightmare of 9/11 firsthand) after that he was off and running for 6 long years while I raised 3 kids (2 babies) by myself. I'm not one to have a pity party I deal with what life gives me - he got clean with the help of AA yet again but needed to take it further and did. Flash forward another 8 years and my middle son starts smoking weed, my daughter right behind him - that quickly escalated to pills and we were off and running again. My oldest NEVER picked up thank God. AFter rehab my son was doing great til he broke his collar bone they gave him percs and he was off again! You know the story. The long and short of it is he and my husband are both clean and living life for Christ (as am I and my oldest) my daughter is still in her own head - she returns some time next week and the boundaries are set - it's her choice.
I attended al-anon when my children were small before I gave my life to Christ and while my husband was still in active addiction - it helped me to have a support system. I tried Nar-anon after my son returned from rehab and did not feel the same way. I love this board and the support here, but I cannot worship a program while I worship the Lord.
I pray for every addict and loved one out there on the daily! Addiction is a beast and we need all the support we can get.
SunnyFrogs said
Apr 29, 2021
I pray for every addict loved one out there too.
Addiction definitely is a beast. And I personally find dealing with an addict child a completely different ballgame than dealing with an addict spouse. I think maybe because my kids are my kids and my love is unconditional. whereas it's a chosen relationship with my husband.
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to feel that way but I do.
mamamary1964 said
Apr 29, 2021
Sunnyfrogs YES! I know exactly that feeling, plus, I know for myself, when I watch my children struggle with addiction and all the chaos it brings to their lives, I think of them as my babies, my little blond hair blue eyed angels that needed mommy all the time. It's like a time warp and it's surreal. I must say I did love my spouse through it (although I had a tremendous amount of resentment that took me years to overcome (sometimes I ask the Lord if I've totally forgiven him)) I tend to blame him for my children's addiction and that's not fair we all have to close the door to the past and live one day (or hour) at a time. We are all works in progress.
Maresie888 said
Apr 29, 2021
Sunyfrogs
I an glad your feeling towards your husband are conditional. That is real progress.
That is something I note with addicts. Their self deception of such that they are looking for unconditional love
Of course around my own self deception as a codependent my conviction was that I an and always was an inherently nice person. LoL!!!
Of course that depends on the situation! But my boundaries see golden these days. My boundaries evaporated in the past on a daily basis. Oh lets just drop those things was my norm
In recovery I am certainly aware now why some people passed me up. Being around dysfunctional people can be excrutiating. The nicer they are the more vicious they are right underneath the surface. It just bubbles up and explodes. One minute they are the saint of recovery. The next they are spewing invectives around people that include name calling shunning and character assassination in a purely reactive form. Then its back to being saint in recovery. It is like a phenomenal slide show. Bad good /bad good day in day out. What a kaleidoscope. They are not even aware of that circus act day in day out. It is astonishing.
So glad that I live in the gray now. Gray is so much more approachable. Gray means I can mess up. Being the good codependent in the world of #nice# #sweet# #kind# didn't work out that well for me. I do not like to be trod on then shoved to the side. Then there is the betrayal. One day you are their angel the next the scum of the earth. Wow that's a real 360 turn. That happens within the hour. My qualifier had those qualities. One day I was his rock the next entirely disposable. Who wants to be around someone who behaves like that only those who are completely bogged down in the swamp of self deception.
Conditional is it all the way. Conditional is the adult form of loving. That means you have self esteem and some core sense if identity. Now your husband is a jerk rather than the end of the world catastrophe. . Good going.
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Thursday 29th of April 2021 04:10:29 PM
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Thursday 29th of April 2021 04:11:43 PM
Iamhere said
Apr 29, 2021
Who you love and how you love is a personal choice. My experience is that it has changed as I've grown up/matured. I've been around alcoholism my entire life - born into it, multi-generational. As alcohol and alcoholism has been around in my family longer than I, it's a normal part of my family. If I opted out of being around drinkers - esp. alcoholics - I'd have to isolate from my family. The thought has crossed my mind a time/two over the years, especially when I ended up in a rehab for alcoholism 33.5 years ago.
The treatment center is secondary to the diseased. If one (me) doesn't want to be sober, or the denial is larger than the pain, relapse will probably happen. I ended up in treatment through a nudge from a judge, and never intended to get/stay sober. I only wanted the law off my back. I fought tooth and nail and stayed in denial for more than 30 days. Needless to say, my stay was 90 days and that's a darn good thing. It took me a while to embrace that whether I liked it or not, I had this disease and once I started, I could not stop and nobody/nothing could stop me either (except the law/jail).
My pain from watching my children with this disease feels deeper than that of my husband. Yet, I love them all unconditionally. Simply because this is what I feel compelled to do at this stage of my life and my recovery. I was raised to view all things transactional and conditional. If I do this for you, you have to do _____________ for me. What I have come to embrace and believe is that's not what the God of my understanding truly wants of/for me. He wants me to be happy, joyous and free and to allow others the exact same grace.
I surround myself with healthy people as best I can. I seek out emotionally and mentally healthy people. I don't shy away or shun others ever as that's not a healthy choice for me. I can't sit in judgement of anyone else ever, for any reason, simply because it makes my heart ache. This doesn't mean there aren't bad people in this world; this just means that, for me, I choose to see all inherently as good until proved wrong.
If I could explain to you why I went to treatment one time, never relapsed and stayed sober until today, I would in a heart-beat. If I could explain to you why each of my sons has been in 5+ treatment centers, mental health centers as well as jail/prison and yet are still drawn to mind/mood altering substances, I would in a heart-beat. The disease doesn't discriminate and doesn't rightly care who it affects/infects. What I can tell you is that even though I've not ingested mind/mood altering substances in a very, very long while, that doesn't mean I am cured. Each day, one day at a time, I am reminded that I am an alcoholic/addict and I can't do what others can with legal/illegal substances. I have no moderate button within me and if/when my mind tells me that I might now, after all this time, I know it's the disease talking to me.
Empathy, self-examination, humility and trusting in a power greater than I have helped me accept and embrace all those in my life, alcoholic and non, unconditionally. Only when I came to accept that we truly are all born, created and molded to be equal, with different values, goals, beliefs and journeys could I find true serenity and joy. Only when I stopped obsessing about what others were/were not doing and focused on myself and my journey could I find absolute and pure joy.
There is no doubt that a part of me would love to fully understand when this disease started in my family and why nobody before I sought treatment and much, much more. Yet, the part of me that trusts in the God of my understanding suggests letting the past lay where it is and instead be in the present, be joyful and be of service to others, which keeps me humble.
What's been interesting in my journey is the more I let go and let God, more has truly been revealed. My father (probably shame) never, ever spoke about his father and this disease. Instead, he 'acted as if' it never happened and all was well. What I know about the disease in my grandfather and his siblings came from my Aunt (father's sister). There's suicide, affairs, illegitimate child/ren, and much much more.
Same on my mom's side. Her father was an alcoholic. I know what I know from my Aunt instead of my mother. More dysfunction in the extended family as well. I did not ask for any of this information, it was offered freely so I could get a better understanding of who I am and possibly why I am in recovery and nobody else is.
Not sure why I'm sharing all this except to maybe suggest that we don't ever know the journey/pain/past/genetics of anyone else - all of which contribute to who they are in the present. There is a reason this disease is suggested to be cunning, baffling and powerful as well as progressive. There's a reason why it's also considered a family disease - almost all are affected in some way, shape or form. Nobody I know chose to be an alcoholic when they 'grew up'. For me, I did what everyone else did - they just could control 'it' and I could not.
Debb said
Apr 29, 2021
IAH, I can see/feel/relate completely. I have been sober for 10 years, no rehab, just stopped when I was told I
had breast and bladder cancer at the same time. I knew it was the drinking and just stopped. Do I miss having
that straight irish whisky on the rocks, you bet. But the thought of cancer stops me in my tracks. My HP was
sending me a warning 10 years ago, and both cancers were low grade, had not spread and treatable. I learned
by lesson. I never used to drink until I came to live with my present husband. Not saying that I blame him,
but he was drinking so I drank along with him. Made the abuse easier to live with, only thing it made a mess
out of me, because I was not dealing with life in the right frame of mind. I have lived and learned and all of
this has made a better person out of me. Thank you HP/MIP/Al-Anon.
SunnyFrogs said
Apr 29, 2021
Thank you Iamhere for such an honest and personal share. It has given me much food for thought as I am sure it has for others too.
Maresie,I just want to clarify that I was not saying that I don't love my AH or that it's not unconditional love. I was just stating that I feel dealing with a child addict vs having an addicted spouse are so different for me. Yes,the way I feel in reaction to him are conditional,I get sad,upset,etc but my love for him doesn't change depending on the situation. I wouldn't consider that progress at all if it did.
I disagree that conditional is the adult form of loving. Or that it means self esteem or I having a core sense of identity. I don't believe love can be turned on and off like a light switch. Nor should it be.If it can be then maybe it wasn't love to begin with. Turning love on and off has nothing to do with self esteem or core identity
Maybe I have misunderstood what you're trying to say?
And no,I don't think my husband is a jerk. I may think he does jerky things at times that upset me but he's not a jerk.
So much more to say but I think I will stop there.
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Thursday 29th of April 2021 07:15:47 PM
SunnyFrogs said
Apr 29, 2021
Debb,i didn't see your post until after mine. Thanks for your honest and personal share too.
I'm glad you both were so open and honest. It makes me think back to my own struggles with addiction. Mine mostly was in high school.The school staged an intervention,back when those weren't really a 'thing'. I wasn't ready to get sober but I do remember the shame and humiliation I felt listening to each school personnel sharing their thoughts and concerns. That wasnt who and how I wanted to be. I wasnt doing it to hurt others or be spiteful or uncaring,I wanted to stop what I was doing but I couldn't. Thinking about that suddenly made me feel this instant compassion for AH,so thanks for sharing. It's been so long since I thought about that and I guess I needed to.
Btw,I did get sober at about 19 years old. It took dropping my infant son and miraculously catching him by his ankle right before he hit the floor . That did it for me.
Maresie888 said
Apr 29, 2021
Sunyfrogs
I don't think.havinh boundaries is not loving. In fact now I think having boundaries is loving. Boundaries aren't having a complete melt down. They have some semblance of dignity about them.
Behavior is separate from identity. However I have plenty of people in my life who love me one minute intensely betray me the next. I don't plan on having any repetitions of that.
I might have empathy for those persons but they are no longer present in my life.
There are most certainly people in my life that I love from afar. In fact some people who have died I love more every day.
I can now balance loving myself first.
Every second of my background was a lesson in giving up on myself
I work around people who.say #dont complain# don't have boundaries don't expect anything. They feel that is practical. In fact they are quite fervent about don't rock any boats. I can only imagine their backgrounds
I do expect respect these days. If someone is incapable of giving it then my boundaries are different irregardless of who they are are.
Certainly I am far less forgiving of others and much more forgiving of myself
I am sorry you misunderstood me
Conditional love isn't a manipulative love of withdrawl. As an adult now if someone hurts me they don't get too many second chances. My love for myself is right up there with every other love in my life
Being around alcoholics I believe there is a constant pressure to attend to their needs. I don't have that kind of generosity in my repertoire any more
I have massive generosity towards children especially those who have struggled. But adults have choices. They may not exercise them. I certainly didn't but there are always choices as an adult
One of them is boundaries
Love doesn't dissolve boundaries it strengthens them. Having boundaries mean I respect both myself and the other person
It also means my days of being a doormat are done.
Maresie
SunnyFrogs said
Apr 30, 2021
Ah,I get what you were trying to say now Maresie.
I don't call it conditional love though,that's what threw me off. To me conditional love means someone must meet all the terms,rules,expectations, restrictions, etc in order to earn my love. If they do,they get my love and then if they don't it gets yanked away. Some used to call it fair-weather love. I do feel it's manipulative and also very hurtful for whoever receives it. Everyone deserves to be loved for who they are as a person not just when they meet someone else's expectations.
Unconditional love,on the other hand, is when I love someone regardless of what they do or dont do.I can set boundaries yet still love them. I can cut a person out of my life yet still love them,etc. They may have to meet certain rules,terms,whatever in order to be in my life but I still love them even if I walk away from them. I may not love what they do or how they treat me but love is love and for me that never fades. I have cut siblings out of my life, for quite a few years now. They are abusive and toxic but I do still love them.
I agree with everything you said about boundaries. I know that boundaries are for me and are a way of loving myself. They are what I am willing to tolerate/not tolerate from others.
Actually I think we might be saying the same thing but using different terminology?
mamamary1964 said
Apr 30, 2021
Wow such deep shares. Isn't it wonderful to be able to open up with no fear of being judged? I felt so judged when my AH was in active addiction so I did exactly what the addict does, isolate! My family members and friends and neighbors all had their advise - but they weren't living it. My mom said "leave him" I worried he would die if I did that - maybe I should have and would have saved all this chaos with the kids, but who knows - I had no self-esteem, no self confidence, no self-worth and no job (raising 3 kids). It has taken me 17 years to realize that I am important and that I deserve happiness - exclusive of what my addicts are doing. That realization is getting me through this stint with my daughter - yes she is technically an adult - but just 21 so still - in my eyes - a baby. I've learned that unconditional love doesn't mean they are allowed to walk all over me, it means I love them no matter what, but there are consequences to actions. That's how God loves us - when we mess up we face consequences. I've finally learned that boundaries are important and non-negotiable. She's coming home on Wednesday (wants me to pick her up this weekend, but that's not happening) my boundaries will be stated Monday in a call with her and her therapist, it's up to her - praying she makes the "right" choice but ultimately, i cannot control that.
Blessings all!
SunnyFrogs said
May 1, 2021
I wish you well for when your daughter goes home. I hope she makes the right choices.
My son has decided to go to sober living afterall. He could possibly change his mind again, he just keeps flip flopping back and forth about it. I just pray for him and love him and let him make his own choices.
mamamary1964 said
May 3, 2021
She may decide to go to sober living as well, after she gets back and realizes she has no job, only 2 months of a car payment and insurance paid, plus her car needs extensive repair since she crashed it on the way home to go to rehab. Not to mention an upcoming court date for possession (not a huge charge) but also for reckless driving - 108 in a 55 - not to mention surcharges on her license that came in while she was away due to having too many points. Sober living would be best - time will tell
Maresie888 said
May 4, 2021
Mary
There are no guarantees
My former qualifier got a DUI last year. He lived out in the county. The DUI resulted in him returning to the area I live in. Needless to say he chose to reach out to me when he came back. I did not answer the call
The consequences for him for his addiction was cumulative. However no matter what he still kept on
I know for some people like him there is no bottom
That is indeed very hard to face. The cost of his acting out tookmfar more of a toll on those around him (with the exception of his mother)
For some people there is only addiction
Some people do indeed stay functional and since can even get more functional
One thing I know if that I had nothing to do with their addiction. Therefore I don't have to deal with the consequences
mamamary1964 said
May 4, 2021
Unfortunately you are correct, there are no guarantees, and I cannot control her or her addiction (or anybody else for that matter). I do, however, prefer to see the glass as half full - there is always hope. We had a virtual meeting with her and her therapist yesterday, she seems to be in a good place (for now) agreed to PCS which is 5 days a week, 5 hours a day for a few weeks then dropping it to IOP for 3 days a week. Claims she doesn't want to use anything, even weed, anymore PTL and wants to get a new phone number so her old "friends" can't find her and she can't find them. I'm looking up and praying. I have faith in God that He will bring my daughter back to sobriety just as He did for my husband and son.
Debb said
May 4, 2021
Mamamary1964, this news sounds so hopeful!! Prayers for you and her!
mamamary1964 said
May 4, 2021
Thanks Debb it does sound hopeful! I am not at all skeptical, but I am "on guard" and will be looking for any manipulation tactics or sneakiness coming from her. This is huge news from her as 2 weeks ago she was so angry and couldn't wait to get home so she could "run" again. She looked like my daughter in that meeting, and she asked for some boundaries of her own, which I agreed to, mostly that I don't "judge" her and pester her about getting a job and that she would acknowledge and live by our boundaries as well. The best intentions, I know, but I am, for the moment, grateful for the breakthrough. There is much work to do on her end, but I can't do it for her. Please pray that she has finally realized her bottom.
SunnyFrogs said
May 4, 2021
I pray your daughter does well.
Where there's breath there's hope.
There's always hope. Always.
I will never give up hope as I'm sure you won't either
mamamary1964 said
May 4, 2021
Amen SunnyFrogs Amen. Always hope - I will never give up on my children (or my husband for that matter) God never gives up on us so I won't either.
Iamhere said
May 4, 2021
Mary - I love that you share your daughter appears more clear-minded. I love that you have hope! I too always hold onto hope as I have seen miracle after miracle after miracle in/around my life - related to recovery and not. I am sending tons of prayers and positive energy for all - you, she, other family. Take good care of you!
My daughter is set to be getting out of Rehab in about a week and a half. She is talking about a sober living home, but doesn't have a job so I would have to assist her. I cannot find any information about costs no matter who I contact. Does anybody have any experience with this? She is telling me it's like $400 a week! That's a full out mortgage payment - I can't believe a home shared between 6-9 people would cost $1,200 a month per resident. I can help her if it's like $400 a month until she gets a job and gets situated - anybody know anything about this?
Thanks in advance
Mamamary1964, I do not have any ESH concerning the move to a Sober Living Home,
but I did find that there is financial assistance, I listed one of the resources that I found
on line.
www.michaelshouse.com/sober-living/how-to-pay/
Check your states department of human services for local assistance.
It is good news that your daughter is about to finish her rehab!! Best of luck to her, you
and your family!!
-- Edited by Debb on Friday 23rd of April 2021 01:54:28 PM
They all do not necessarily have to charge
Is she on disability that helps
Maresie
The disease of addiction is cunning and baffling.
This is why we close ranks and join forces in order to deal with it. :)
-- Edited by DavidG on Friday 23rd of April 2021 03:36:34 PM
www.njoxfordhouse.org/vacancies/
You can drill down - Male vs. Female, zip code/city, etc.
Oxford Houses all have rules including finding a job and paying your way. There are curfews, chores, meeting requirements, etc. and it's run diplomatically (elections, board, etc.) Vacancies tend to vary for city, state, female, season, etc.
Halfway houses and sober living houses are independent all with their own rules. I know less about these simply because by the time mine tried these, they were more independent.
I've never heard of a sober living, transitional living or oxford home costing more than $100 +/- a week. Most do require a deposit and all are furnished. Most desire you to bring your own bedding if you have it; they often have left-behind if you don't. I have also never heard of a step-down place that doesn't require the person to get gainful employment as fast as possible and pay their own way.
Catholic Charities will assist with deposits, food, etc. As with all things, I had to figure out what my boundary was regarding help with/in recovery. I had no problem covering the deposit and buying food (each buys their own groceries) but strongly encouraged mine to pay their own weekly rent. I was willing to help with rides to work but encouraged bus route/Uber as Plan A with me/us being Plan B.
There's no perfect way to be of service to a newly sober person - my experience is the less I could entwine, the easier it was for me to stay detached and to allow them to grow/learn in their own journey/recovery. I do know that I made it clear to the treatment center that if I was to be a part of the transition process then I desired to have input into the transition plan. All treatment centers I know work with the patient/person on a transition plan. Lastly, I learned early on to not give mine pocket money - it just never worked out well.
Hope this helps. Hang in there!
Very helpful IAH...I know she can also talk to the administration of the house and get answers. Prayers for the addict. (((hugs)))
I think the issue for me with an addict particularly when they were getting out of rehab was the $#demands#
That is the star demands
They certainly need a transition plan m
For those of us in their #support group# we need our own transition plan. Boundaries are critical with a recovering alcoholic
Then there are the expectations. They have to go to meetings. Then they have to find a source of income. Then they have a support group..
That is a very big transition
Al anon can really help. Navigating that territory is not for the faint of heart m
Navigating that territory you need some forms of guidance. Having a sponsor is extremely helpful
Maresie
Mary
Please let us know how you are doing going forward because we are all here for you!! {{HUGS}}
There is definitely an issue with the aftercare
Some people do indeed do well for a while
I can imagine delving into recovery during a pandemic might be difficult
Nevertheless having firm boundaries is a real art
I am glad you can hold fast to them
In my situation, we did try the return home - it did not work. Therefore, we made a stay at a sober house a requirement to return home. Funding anything beyond deposit for a sober living place for us was a hard No. This disease tells the user to isolate, and we all know that isolation isn't a healthy long-term choice/strategy.
My youngest did live in a car in our driveway once. It did not go well. After watching an assortment of 'friends' stop by at all hours of the day/night, I got in one day (my car, had spare keys) and drove the car with him in it, passed out to the Adult Detox Center. I parked the car in the lot, walked away with the keys and called a friend to pick me up.
He came to with staff and the police knocking on the car. They gave him the option of coming inside the detox center or going to jail. He opted for the detox. I went back and got the car later. Until my boys felt the exact consequences of choosing active disease over recovery, there was not much change. I have gotten so drastic that I've blocked them when in detox/treatment/jail. I just love me too much today to engage with another who's only interested in self-serving and self-destruction. I will move heaven and earth in support of recovery; I will love them from across the street, city, country before I'll support the disease in any form.
Keep doing what you're doing - 10 days in plenty of time to still have a change of heart (daughter). It's certainly enough time for you to talk to her counselor and state what your boundaries are, plain and clear. My sons heard 'things' way better from the staff than they did from me/us. (((Hugs)))
The staff may be hesitant to speak with you if your daughter has not approved for them to do so. My sons had to sign releases once they were adult age for any discussions to happen. Just a thought as to why they might feel evasive to you - it's all about HIPAA compliance and releases. (((Hugs)))
However they are always covered because their clients are really out of it.
They get away with so much. Like a lot of places they claim incredible results too
I am sorry you had to endure this
If I met someone going to rehab now I would say let me know when you have 6 months sober
They tend to be ridiculously expensive
That being said I have met alcoholics who did well after rehab. It sticks for some
It makes me sad but I know that ultimately his sobriety is up to him,and him only. Not all rehabs are bad,there's some good ones out there. I don't like to make a blanket statement about all of them. I am not sure about the one my son is in but I do know the hard work is mainly on him. The rehab may be a stepping stone , a place to give him tools he needs and education about his disease but he will have to be the one that makes the choice to continue seeking help or not.
It's kinda like Alanon, I know I have to do the work in order to make changes. If it isn't working I can't really blame alanon for that.
I.have met many.people who.went to.rehabs. i.even knew quite well someone who.worked at a rehab. One of the meetings I regularly attended was in a well known rehab. Thry had a stellar reputation.
Certainly.sime of them are better than others. However my experience of some people coming from rehabs like Hazelton is that they are more articulate about their core issues
I mosr certainly know people who went to rehabs in the City I currently live in. Their recovery stuck. Thry did however have a number of relapses. Nevertheless I would not say they are peo people I share my recovery with.
For me personally I have had to go outside of all anon. My issues of course are far beyond codependency. Therefore when people get fairly rigid about the steps and the traditions I am somewhat mystified. There were many reasons I was drawn to the alcoholic. There were many reasons I stayed with the alcoholic. I had to unearth them in order to understand my fatal.atrractuon to peope who.choose to self destruct so compulsively. I an glad other people might not have had to go that far. I had to and al anon only took.me so far.
I wish I coukd recover entirely within the confines of al.anon. unfortunately or fortunately that is not possible for me. Boundaries have taken a lot of work for me. Dysregulation (which I believe absolutely is one of the core civdutins of addiction) was avid still is one of my core issues. Dysregulation did not evaporate for and overnight. Indeed fught/flight which was one reason I survived becme the babe of my existence as an adult.
I am really glad that al.anon.works so well for some people. I am gratified that certain people do recover after rehab. Nevertheless for me personally my boundaries have to be carefully honed to deal with anyone coming out of rehab. Their expectations of others are way way way off. The way that many rehabs are structured is based on making immense demands on the slcoholics support system. They are rigid demanding and dismissive. There is zero respect in their communication. I am no longer willing tk.tolerare thstvstyke of communication. That is one reason that I do not tolerate well th he phrase #enabler#
After my own experiences I would not personally deal with a someone coming out of rehab or any institution. I simply no longer have the bandwidth to do it. I admire anyone who would even consider it.
For me personally the support for families of those in rehab is minimal the issues are rarely discussed. The feelings of the family.for those in rehab are glossed over. There is a desrthnof services for them
In some upscale rehabs like The Meadows they do indeed have a parallel track for the support system. That might be one way to tolerate all those mixed emotions.
I know we have had many treads for people dealing with significant others in rehabs. Those particular threads did a great deal for me in separating out my feelings. I welcome them.
As a result of that processing I most certainly have a great deal of empathy for those who have significant others in regab. On many occasions dealing with an alcoholic is an absolute double bind. Rehab is most certainly one of them
Maresie
Maresie
I attended al-anon when my children were small before I gave my life to Christ and while my husband was still in active addiction - it helped me to have a support system. I tried Nar-anon after my son returned from rehab and did not feel the same way. I love this board and the support here, but I cannot worship a program while I worship the Lord.
I pray for every addict and loved one out there on the daily! Addiction is a beast and we need all the support we can get.
Addiction definitely is a beast. And I personally find dealing with an addict child a completely different ballgame than dealing with an addict spouse. I think maybe because my kids are my kids and my love is unconditional. whereas it's a chosen relationship with my husband.
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to feel that way but I do.
Sunyfrogs
I an glad your feeling towards your husband are conditional. That is real progress.
That is something I note with addicts. Their self deception of such that they are looking for unconditional love
Of course around my own self deception as a codependent my conviction was that I an and always was an inherently nice person. LoL!!!
Of course that depends on the situation! But my boundaries see golden these days. My boundaries evaporated in the past on a daily basis. Oh lets just drop those things was my norm
In recovery I am certainly aware now why some people passed me up. Being around dysfunctional people can be excrutiating. The nicer they are the more vicious they are right underneath the surface. It just bubbles up and explodes. One minute they are the saint of recovery. The next they are spewing invectives around people that include name calling shunning and character assassination in a purely reactive form. Then its back to being saint in recovery. It is like a phenomenal slide show. Bad good /bad good day in day out. What a kaleidoscope. They are not even aware of that circus act day in day out. It is astonishing.
So glad that I live in the gray now. Gray is so much more approachable. Gray means I can mess up. Being the good codependent in the world of #nice# #sweet# #kind# didn't work out that well for me. I do not like to be trod on then shoved to the side. Then there is the betrayal. One day you are their angel the next the scum of the earth. Wow that's a real 360 turn. That happens within the hour. My qualifier had those qualities. One day I was his rock the next entirely disposable. Who wants to be around someone who behaves like that only those who are completely bogged down in the swamp of self deception.
Conditional is it all the way. Conditional is the adult form of loving. That means you have self esteem and some core sense if identity. Now your husband is a jerk rather than the end of the world catastrophe. . Good going.
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Thursday 29th of April 2021 04:10:29 PM
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Thursday 29th of April 2021 04:11:43 PM
The treatment center is secondary to the diseased. If one (me) doesn't want to be sober, or the denial is larger than the pain, relapse will probably happen. I ended up in treatment through a nudge from a judge, and never intended to get/stay sober. I only wanted the law off my back. I fought tooth and nail and stayed in denial for more than 30 days. Needless to say, my stay was 90 days and that's a darn good thing. It took me a while to embrace that whether I liked it or not, I had this disease and once I started, I could not stop and nobody/nothing could stop me either (except the law/jail).
My pain from watching my children with this disease feels deeper than that of my husband. Yet, I love them all unconditionally. Simply because this is what I feel compelled to do at this stage of my life and my recovery. I was raised to view all things transactional and conditional. If I do this for you, you have to do _____________ for me. What I have come to embrace and believe is that's not what the God of my understanding truly wants of/for me. He wants me to be happy, joyous and free and to allow others the exact same grace.
I surround myself with healthy people as best I can. I seek out emotionally and mentally healthy people. I don't shy away or shun others ever as that's not a healthy choice for me. I can't sit in judgement of anyone else ever, for any reason, simply because it makes my heart ache. This doesn't mean there aren't bad people in this world; this just means that, for me, I choose to see all inherently as good until proved wrong.
If I could explain to you why I went to treatment one time, never relapsed and stayed sober until today, I would in a heart-beat. If I could explain to you why each of my sons has been in 5+ treatment centers, mental health centers as well as jail/prison and yet are still drawn to mind/mood altering substances, I would in a heart-beat. The disease doesn't discriminate and doesn't rightly care who it affects/infects. What I can tell you is that even though I've not ingested mind/mood altering substances in a very, very long while, that doesn't mean I am cured. Each day, one day at a time, I am reminded that I am an alcoholic/addict and I can't do what others can with legal/illegal substances. I have no moderate button within me and if/when my mind tells me that I might now, after all this time, I know it's the disease talking to me.
Empathy, self-examination, humility and trusting in a power greater than I have helped me accept and embrace all those in my life, alcoholic and non, unconditionally. Only when I came to accept that we truly are all born, created and molded to be equal, with different values, goals, beliefs and journeys could I find true serenity and joy. Only when I stopped obsessing about what others were/were not doing and focused on myself and my journey could I find absolute and pure joy.
There is no doubt that a part of me would love to fully understand when this disease started in my family and why nobody before I sought treatment and much, much more. Yet, the part of me that trusts in the God of my understanding suggests letting the past lay where it is and instead be in the present, be joyful and be of service to others, which keeps me humble.
What's been interesting in my journey is the more I let go and let God, more has truly been revealed. My father (probably shame) never, ever spoke about his father and this disease. Instead, he 'acted as if' it never happened and all was well. What I know about the disease in my grandfather and his siblings came from my Aunt (father's sister). There's suicide, affairs, illegitimate child/ren, and much much more.
Same on my mom's side. Her father was an alcoholic. I know what I know from my Aunt instead of my mother. More dysfunction in the extended family as well. I did not ask for any of this information, it was offered freely so I could get a better understanding of who I am and possibly why I am in recovery and nobody else is.
Not sure why I'm sharing all this except to maybe suggest that we don't ever know the journey/pain/past/genetics of anyone else - all of which contribute to who they are in the present. There is a reason this disease is suggested to be cunning, baffling and powerful as well as progressive. There's a reason why it's also considered a family disease - almost all are affected in some way, shape or form. Nobody I know chose to be an alcoholic when they 'grew up'. For me, I did what everyone else did - they just could control 'it' and I could not.
had breast and bladder cancer at the same time. I knew it was the drinking and just stopped. Do I miss having
that straight irish whisky on the rocks, you bet. But the thought of cancer stops me in my tracks. My HP was
sending me a warning 10 years ago, and both cancers were low grade, had not spread and treatable. I learned
by lesson. I never used to drink until I came to live with my present husband. Not saying that I blame him,
but he was drinking so I drank along with him. Made the abuse easier to live with, only thing it made a mess
out of me, because I was not dealing with life in the right frame of mind. I have lived and learned and all of
this has made a better person out of me. Thank you HP/MIP/Al-Anon.
Thank you Iamhere for such an honest and personal share. It has given me much food for thought as I am sure it has for others too.
Maresie,I just want to clarify that I was not saying that I don't love my AH or that it's not unconditional love. I was just stating that I feel dealing with a child addict vs having an addicted spouse are so different for me. Yes,the way I feel in reaction to him are conditional,I get sad,upset,etc but my love for him doesn't change depending on the situation. I wouldn't consider that progress at all if it did.
I disagree that conditional is the adult form of loving. Or that it means self esteem or I having a core sense of identity. I don't believe love can be turned on and off like a light switch. Nor should it be.If it can be then maybe it wasn't love to begin with. Turning love on and off has nothing to do with self esteem or core identity
Maybe I have misunderstood what you're trying to say?
And no,I don't think my husband is a jerk. I may think he does jerky things at times that upset me but he's not a jerk.
So much more to say but I think I will stop there.
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Thursday 29th of April 2021 07:15:47 PM
I'm glad you both were so open and honest. It makes me think back to my own struggles with addiction. Mine mostly was in high school.The school staged an intervention,back when those weren't really a 'thing'. I wasn't ready to get sober but I do remember the shame and humiliation I felt listening to each school personnel sharing their thoughts and concerns. That wasnt who and how I wanted to be. I wasnt doing it to hurt others or be spiteful or uncaring,I wanted to stop what I was doing but I couldn't. Thinking about that suddenly made me feel this instant compassion for AH,so thanks for sharing. It's been so long since I thought about that and I guess I needed to.
Btw,I did get sober at about 19 years old. It took dropping my infant son and miraculously catching him by his ankle right before he hit the floor . That did it for me.
Sunyfrogs
I don't think.havinh boundaries is not loving. In fact now I think having boundaries is loving. Boundaries aren't having a complete melt down. They have some semblance of dignity about them.
Behavior is separate from identity. However I have plenty of people in my life who love me one minute intensely betray me the next. I don't plan on having any repetitions of that.
I might have empathy for those persons but they are no longer present in my life.
There are most certainly people in my life that I love from afar. In fact some people who have died I love more every day.
I can now balance loving myself first.
Every second of my background was a lesson in giving up on myself
I work around people who.say #dont complain# don't have boundaries don't expect anything. They feel that is practical. In fact they are quite fervent about don't rock any boats. I can only imagine their backgrounds
I do expect respect these days. If someone is incapable of giving it then my boundaries are different irregardless of who they are are.
Certainly I am far less forgiving of others and much more forgiving of myself
I am sorry you misunderstood me
Conditional love isn't a manipulative love of withdrawl. As an adult now if someone hurts me they don't get too many second chances. My love for myself is right up there with every other love in my life
Being around alcoholics I believe there is a constant pressure to attend to their needs. I don't have that kind of generosity in my repertoire any more
I have massive generosity towards children especially those who have struggled. But adults have choices. They may not exercise them. I certainly didn't but there are always choices as an adult
One of them is boundaries
Love doesn't dissolve boundaries it strengthens them. Having boundaries mean I respect both myself and the other person
It also means my days of being a doormat are done.
Maresie
I don't call it conditional love though,that's what threw me off. To me conditional love means someone must meet all the terms,rules,expectations, restrictions, etc in order to earn my love. If they do,they get my love and then if they don't it gets yanked away. Some used to call it fair-weather love. I do feel it's manipulative and also very hurtful for whoever receives it. Everyone deserves to be loved for who they are as a person not just when they meet someone else's expectations.
Unconditional love,on the other hand, is when I love someone regardless of what they do or dont do.I can set boundaries yet still love them. I can cut a person out of my life yet still love them,etc. They may have to meet certain rules,terms,whatever in order to be in my life but I still love them even if I walk away from them. I may not love what they do or how they treat me but love is love and for me that never fades. I have cut siblings out of my life, for quite a few years now. They are abusive and toxic but I do still love them.
I agree with everything you said about boundaries. I know that boundaries are for me and are a way of loving myself. They are what I am willing to tolerate/not tolerate from others.
Actually I think we might be saying the same thing but using different terminology?
Blessings all!
My son has decided to go to sober living afterall. He could possibly change his mind again, he just keeps flip flopping back and forth about it. I just pray for him and love him and let him make his own choices.
There are no guarantees
My former qualifier got a DUI last year. He lived out in the county. The DUI resulted in him returning to the area I live in. Needless to say he chose to reach out to me when he came back. I did not answer the call
The consequences for him for his addiction was cumulative. However no matter what he still kept on
I know for some people like him there is no bottom
That is indeed very hard to face. The cost of his acting out tookmfar more of a toll on those around him (with the exception of his mother)
For some people there is only addiction
Some people do indeed stay functional and since can even get more functional
One thing I know if that I had nothing to do with their addiction. Therefore I don't have to deal with the consequences
Where there's breath there's hope.
There's always hope. Always.
I will never give up hope as I'm sure you won't either