I had an opportunity to practice JADE two evenings ago with AH. Believe it or not he was flipping out about a mouse that was scratching behind the corner baseboard of his bedroom. Was fit to be tied that he could not go to sleep in the room. I suggested he sleep on the couch. Sounds like a simple solution right? No, he had guzzled down 3 tall cans of beer that evening and was totally unreasonable, that is usually when he rants and verbally abuses me, which he did. Calling me names, telling me he wants a divorce and me off his employers health insurance, it is routine for me to hear this sort of abuse on a monthly basis, but this time he got in my face and followed me around as I attempted to remove myself from the room. The only thing I said to him was, and it was a new approach for me, it actually made him stop and wonder, I told him when he rants like that it feels like he is vomiting on me. I just spoke with him this morning for the first time in a day and a half and told him that I do not want this to happen anymore, that I am done, I got no argument, just a grunt of sorts. Thought I would share and hope that it helps everyone to see that they are not alone!!
JADE - Do not:
Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain
Overcome said
Dec 10, 2020
I remember when my daughter's dad (not an alcoholic, but a non-recovering ACOA) would follow me around the house looking for an argument. This went on for years, even after I got into the program. As long as I stayed in this relationship it stayed crazy. I remember one time we were arguing and I was trying to get away from him by going into the bedroom. He followed me in there and I lost it and broke our wedding picture over a chest of drawers sending shards of glass onto the bed. He threw me onto the bed (with the broken pieces of glass). It was a wonder one of us didn't get hurt. No amount of program seemed to help the situation. Maybe I wasn't working my program (obviously since I was the one that broke the picture to begin with), or maybe it was just a hopeless situation. In either case we both decided that it was best that the relationship end. It was definitely not the kind of home I wanted to raise my daughter in.
He is now in another marriage and according to our daughter (who is now 23) he is doing the same thing with his current wife. I have stayed out of alcoholic relationships for 11 years now (I was married to 3 alcoholics and this ACOA for a total of 4 alcoholic marriages that dealt with the family disease of alcoholism) and have no desire to go back into that crazy life. Sometimes we just have to know when we're done. It is different for each of us. For me it took 12 years from that marriage. I decided to go out again and marry a non-drinking alcoholic (dry drunk) thinking that would be better than living with a drinking alcoholic. It was not, it was worse! I stayed in that marriage 3 years, so at least I didn't stay in as long. The controlling and manipulation from that dysfunctional marriage put me in the mental hospital more than once. My point in telling all this is if we stay out there long enough (in the disease of alcoholism) we become as sick as the alcoholic.
No one can decide for another when to leave or if we should stay, that is up to each individual. Some are stronger than others and can practice JADE better than I was ever able to. I think that is the key though to successfully living with an actively drinking alcoholic (or a non-drinking one that is not in a program) whether you stay in this marriage or opt for divorce, Deb; I pray that you do what is best for you. Prayers for a more peaceful night tonight.
Debb said
Dec 10, 2020
Overcome, thank you for your response and ESH! I am so sorry that you have had, what seems to be, a lifetime of dealing with alcoholics. I wish you peace as well.
I have been, between 2002 to 2014 dealing with AH and his disease/rantings and then joined Al-Anon. Went from literally the bottom of the barrel mentally to near
total understanding of this disease. Al-Anon has saved my sanity and my life. AH can never hurt me again and he knows it. For some reason I still love him and
for that I need to ride this out.
Iamhere said
Dec 10, 2020
I can agree that there's nothing worse than someone out of their right mind following me around my home....I installed a lock on my BR door and also discovered 2 places they don't follow - the restroom and the laundry room. That all worked for a while, until it didn't. I did figure out that if/when I just stay in my spot, mute the TV, stare and pretend to listen without responding, it ends so, so, so soon. My guys, esp. under the influence find sport in picking fights and getting a reaction from me. When I stopped, it stopped as well. I am lucky today that both of my sons no longer live in the home. My AH got snippy the other night and I was tempted to respond in kind and just paused long enough to opt out. He did come and apologize the next day with no words from me. I do believe that we train others how to treat us - I have walked out of the room, walked out of the house and an assorted of in-between. I have really come to a place where I will do almost anything to avoid chaos/drama as that disrupts my serenity the most....hang in there Debb - I hear you and do understand how maddening it can be!
Debb said
Dec 10, 2020
IAH, so lovely to chat with you again!! I have learned via Al-Anon and MIP that everyone has their own ESH that drives how they deal with their own individual lives and circumstances. There are so many ways we can arrive at the same destination. {{HUGS}}
Maresie888 said
Dec 10, 2020
(IAH)
Sorry you had to deal with that
At one point I said to the Qualifier. #this is everyday#
He backed off after that one
I can a very very contentious rekstionship with him
Really difficult. I.did not know how to set boundaries
Now I do
Settimg boundaries under those condotins is like being in the war zone
I try pretty hard not to engage with people like that
It is like steering
Of course I also keep myself very busy very very busy
I.went through so much of those verbal atracks with tug ennow ex roommate
He was really vicious.
It is hard to.endure that
Now he does not get to attack me anymore.
However of course I am no longer at his house.
Prioximity is everything.
a4l said
Dec 11, 2020
Thanks for this thread. I'm dealing with an alcoholic family member and it's draining me. When sober it's Moody and dry. When drunk its a danger to itself and the smell and slurred speech repulse me. I can't leave money around to the point I have to hide it. Overall feelings of shame and exhaustion and frustration. It helps to read how others are handling it.
Maresie888 said
Dec 15, 2020
Dear Deb
The qualifier expected me to fix stiff for him then he immediately disparaged it.
That was my norm
I applaud your use of the program
It truly was an enormous turning point when I stopped arguing
The qualifier also said many many humiliating things to me
I was so crestfallen by that
You do not deserve to be spoken to in that way
I had a phrase with the qualifier #every day#
Every single day he presented with some criss
For me acknowledging it was every day was a way to back off
I still put myself into states of exhaustion dealing with him but I had some respites
These are very hard times to be dealing with this stuff
This is an overwhelming time
I am so grateful to have found al anon
I am an avid reader
Codeoendency is a very difficult concept
Having the courage to deal with this is enormous
I have come a long long way
This year has been particularly challenging
Very very challenging
This will be like 9/11 we will be dealing with this for some time
I am so very grateful to be here
Maresie
DavidG said
Dec 15, 2020
I think that JADE is used to apply to the addict/alcoholic mostly.
My AF is long gone. I now have younger relatives who qualify me.
But mostly I always say the only qualifier i bring to meetings is myself. ...
I have picked up on JADE lately because i still tend to explain far too much- about anything and everything.
When my kids were growing up youngest daughter used to sometimes say to me "too much information".
And that told me I was out of kilter with the rest of the world.
Hmmm I am explain a lot here... but this is the tight place. explaining and not complaining is a good place to be.
In the rooms I can try things out. Road test new ideas and approaches. Be amongst people who understand. ...
Make mistakes without being put down and ridiculed! ...
Thanks Debb, and Y'all... ...
mamalioness said
Jan 7, 2021
Nice post Debb
I am still catch myself doing the JADE thing but I am much better at catching it and what I do is a quick step number 10 and ask myself why are you explaining yourself to so-and-so? You dont owe them anything, like if I am ask to do something I dont want to do, no is simple enough. I dont owe anybody an explanation hey simple but kind no I dont want to, or I cannot do this, and sometimes if the relationship is really close loving one I might suggest an alternative or maybe briefly tell them why I cant do something but I dont go on and on and justify and argue and defend and explain myself anymore. I never thought I would progress in this area because I felt like my existence was an offense I felt like I had to apologize for being alive so for me to be able to say no and nothing more is a big step and I am just so Grateful.
A good example was last night I was at the CR meeting at church and I just do not approve of the room leader. I dont like her but I could have said that aside if she was a good room monitor but she is not at least it doesnt serve me, her meetings I dont get anything out of them. She has her favorites and it is very telling in her room so after Covid relaxed a little bit and the church opened up I think the final thing was when everybody either emailed me or telephoned me in our room and even out of our room and my senior citizens life point group I got flooded with calls and sympathy cards and some texts acknowledging my loss when my sister died and this girl nothing, and she knew I had a death in the family I found out she was told three times by three different people that all Rosie had a death in the family her sister died. Though I forgive it and I have let it go, I just dont want to be around her so when I got my year chip of being in the church recovery room and it was a year chip celebrating my commitment to step number three, she came up To me to greet me and was going to hug me but I sort of stepped aside and I thanked her and smiled but I stepped aside I did not want her to touch me. And that is my choice there are some people that I would love a hug from and did get a hug from
And There are others I would rather keep my distance from and she is definitely one of them LOL so I stepped aside and I said thank you and I just walked on and I was asked if I was going to go to her meeting afterwards and I just looked at her and very nicely said no thank you and I walked away and went to the snack bar and munched on some snacks and chatited up with some folks and got some congratulations for my chip and when I finished my snacks and it was time for everybody to go to their recovery rooms I just , after saying good night, I just walked out the front door and went home. I didnt justify I didnt argue I didnt defend or explain when she asked me if I was coming to the group meeting, and I felt pretty good about myself and my progress that I said a very nice no thank you and that was it
I am finally feeling like I can set a boundary or say no or whatever and I am worth it taking care of me and what is what I need and what is important to me.
SunnyFrogs said
Jan 7, 2021
I'm not sure how I missed this thread when it was first posted but I am grateful it has been bumped up by mamalioness.
It made me sad and kinda glad to read the shares here and to know I am not alone in the verbal abuse. I don't think I have said that before, that AH verbally abuses me over silly/trivial things just like the mouse scratching story. I used to overlook it and not say anything back but I guess I got to a point where I felt justified in throwing out even worse verbal abuse in return. This marriage has got to the point of seeing who can be the most degrading and twisted when we hurl the abuse. I am ashamed to admit that but it's the truth. And I have been working so hard to change what I do.
Yesterday, I had asked a simple question ,apparently one AH didn't want to be asked. He did the usual, started with the verbal abuse and threats of divorce, etc . Out of habit, I was gonna start hurling it back to him but instead got up and walked away.
It made me feel much better about myself to walk away. Even though the stuff he said was so extremely hurtful it didn't hurt as much as it would have if I had repeated an old habit.
It really makes me sad that we endure this kind of stuff and stay to endure more and call it love. Love shouldn't be this painful, it shouldn't be so hard, it shouldn't be something we have to work so hard at. It's not right or fair that we go through so much abuse and have to find ways to not let it get to us. It SHOULD get to is, it SHOULD hurt us and upset us, it SHOULD be something we get away from and stay away from. Not something we learn how to tune out and put up with.
I'm sorry if that was offensive to anyone. I guess I was speaking about myself and thinking out loud.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jan 7, 2021
SunnyF - It certainly wasn't offensive to me! I completely understand and can relate. I had to finally accept that perhaps "we" as a couple weren't "truly in love." Because I feel you are spot on... Love should not be so hard...should not be painful in the sense of every. single. day. I did not enjoy a future where I had to tune out and "put up with" ______.
Love is about lifting each other up. It is not one-sided.
I WILL applaud you for trying something different... for not immediately going with the old habit. To do so is not always easy. Keep working it!
&
Maresie888 said
Jan 7, 2021
Now that I have a big picture of comolex ptad I seize on every situation to practice skills to bring me back to a place of calm determination
I.ceetainly had a lot of shame about some of my behaviors. Pf course zI have been around persons who were volatile, pernicious and just plain vicious. That kind of person requires a special skill set to be around. Indeed there are bullies everywhere . For me personally the understanding where JADE comes from is revolutionary. I am truly indebted to those.who have blazed the trail on complex ptsd
Therefore with that framework I can certainly correct myself. I am also truly indebted to a friend of mine who pointed out to me my inner critic was a force to be reckoned with. Those observations were the nucleus of the transformation I am at last able to put in place.
Al anon most definitely put in place a program that is very helpful in the scourge of codependence. Every day I am so grateful for the insight, tools and commitment to recovery I have found here. I am truly blessed.
Maresie
.
Iamhere said
Jan 7, 2021
(((SF))) - I hear you loud and clear. What's so grand about recovery is that we each get to try tools, see if they work, put them in our kit if they do, or set them to the side if not. Speaking only for my house/marriage/family, the screaming, sarcasm, name-calling, verbal abuse, etc. has completely stopped. What I found about my guys (and myself) is that we are all very passionate, opinionated, and right-fighters. Each wanted to be right and most of the screaming matches & fights around here were more about the habit of the dance than hurting another.
When I chose to stop engaging/participating, it got worse before it got better. One or more of mine would follow me around, saying hurtful things and trying to push my buttons. The better I got at pausing and detaching, the less 'fun' it was for them and they literally either moved on or stopped. Even if we are the only ones in recovery, we are not the only ones changing. Trust me when I say that I prefer less conversation with my guys and more conversation with my gal pals vs. how it used to be!
I have only gotten 'here' - a place of unconditional acceptance and love for the alcoholics in my life by practicing this program as best I can, one day at a time. JADE has been a huge gift for me and has served me very, very well. I never heard it or considered it before recovery and had spent a ton of energy, resources, time, oxygen, etc. JADE'ng for years. The next best thing I heard in recovery that went really, really well with JADE was the fact that Yes and No are complete, stand-alone sentences. I'd never, ever, ever used a one word sentence in my life until I began to practice this program.
We often have much more personal power within us that we realize, and my power today is kept within my being. I will shut my mouth completely, walk out of the room, house, etc. if needed to not give away my power, my esteem, my joy. I will always, always choose being happy over being right and it's worked well for me. Never, ever, ever did I project that I and my AH would golf together and enjoy it. He's been a golfer long before we met and I hated the game. Yet, my sponsor, a golfer, got me involved and it's much safer than my favorite sport - softball. He's got a group of guys he plays with every day...I almost fell over on the floor when he invited me to play one day a few years ago....
Do what gives you peace today. Do what makes you calm today. Trust your program and practice our tools. The answers for each of us always come. There's no right/wrong way to recover, be married, etc. We each have our journey that truly is YOLO - you only live once. I remind myself when I feel uncertain or confused that this is not a dress rehearsal - do what brings me peace/joy!
(((Hugs))) - good on you for doing something different. Be proud - change is what recovery is all about.
DavidG said
Jan 7, 2021
I have gotten a lot out of this thread, and this topic. I often think of tweaking other situations. Rather that tweaking my own recovery armour. Or rather- not armour at all- more like removing barriers and creating healthy boundaries.
So I am no longer applying JADE to a drinking situation. I am applying it to my world and my future. The things I might try to justify to myself- when there is no need to. ...
sunmustshine said
Jan 8, 2021
Sunny Frogs you brought up a point I wrestled with for years. It was what kept me justified in acting nuts before Alanon too. Joining Alanon didnt make any of the points you made less true. I feel like Alanon is where I came because those points are true. The tools I picked up, not responding, walking away, not participating, being good to myself, keeping the focus on me and my choices with the crazy making, were how I reclaimed my sanity and how I was able to begin creating boundaries. I am still married to my AH but feel safe now. Trust me, I am a work in progress and make mistakes from time to time, (human and allowed) but Im on a journey. I dont know if it leads to divorce. It could. More will be revealed on that when its time. What I can say with gratitude is, the things you point out we shouldnt have to do just to put up with the stuff we should not be subjected to, has led to a life I am proud of, self I am happy with, and strength within me that feels unshakable (until Im shaken by something ha). The stuff I shouldnt have been subjected to wasn't stopping and I was not leaving. I used to make those points to feel sorry for myself or so others would feel sorry for me or confirm I am right (over and over). It didnt help me. After I developed the tools I would make those points as an affirmation that kept me committed to the work I did to get further on the journey. How could anyone be offended hearing you affirm your right to a good life and being treated well? I cant imagine anyone who has gone through what comes with alcoholism could be offended. Best wishes to all of us on the journey wherever we are.
WendyP said
Jan 8, 2021
HI Debb, on reading your sharing, it brought a smile to my face, as I remember my walking journey with my 2nd Alcoholic marriage, he was so nasty, he tried to take everyone and everything off me that he could. To turn people away from me, he even had my 2 adult children brainwashed against me. Even though they both knew that I was in Alanon, I tried to tell them what he was doing, sitting me up. But thankfully, I had enough program inside of me that I could see it. He was an everyday drinker, and very emotionally abusive, the 1st Alcoholic in my life, was physically violent. To me the second one damaged me worse, because you couldn't see the scars. The first one was a bender drinker, in some ways, I could handle that better, it gave me sometime to build up relief before the next event. I wasn't in Alanon with the first one.
The 2nd one was a follower, he use to drive me crazy, following me around, abusing me with everything he could. At that time, I didn't have my temper in control, I was a hot head and a fighter, would stand to toe with him. But Alanon had started to work for me, One night he got me, I tried so hard, but instead of standing toe to toe with him, I rang a friend in Alanon, I was crying, she said to come over. So I did, and cried my heart out, she was so lovely, gave me a hug,and she said to me, 'Did he get you'. With tears running down my face, I said "Yes".
She went on to tell me if he did it again, not to look him in the eye, look over his head, look anywhere, but not in his eyes. She also said, to when he is raving on, to whistle, or sing. I came home much better than I left. I remembered what she said, so the very next time I had someone following me around the Kitchen, I thought of what she said, I was telling myself, to sing, whistle. Well, I couldn't whistle, and all I could think of to sing was, Rock Of Ages. So here I was, walking around the kitchen table, singing Rock Of Ages, that's all I could think of, I couldn't remember any more words with this mad man chasing me behind. He soon gave up, and afterwards, I thought about it, and all I could do was laugh. Thinking to myself that if he thought I was crazy before, he would really think I was mad now. Singing Rock of Ages while he was ranting and raving.
Another time, I knew I was working so hard at my recovery, and just needed something from him to realize it,{Hah Hah}, so I said to him 'How come, I can get on with everyone, except you," Came the reply, [very quickly, might I add}, they don't have to live with you". All I could do was laugh, as I thought to myself, you sure set yourself up for that one didn't you".I have never heard of Jade, but I like it and will take that on board.
I knew I was getting better, when I started to laugh at myself. I am no longer near the active phase of the Disease, but plenty of other stuff. Thankfully, with Alanon I can keep sane.
As David G says, Each Alanon member is my teacher.
Love WendyP.
Lyne said
Jan 8, 2021
Thank you all for sharing ESH. There is always something to learn and practice. This MIP family enriches my life and recovery.
Debb said
Jan 8, 2021
Sunmustshine and WendyP, like you both I found the even though AH tries to steal my confidence and serenity,
Al-Anon has given me the ability to see right through his rhetoric and stop the abuse. For me, it is not abuse if
I do not play into the game AH plays, in fact, for the most part when he does this ranting I actually feel sorry for
him, because to me he looks inhuman and desperate. Like you both, I do have a few lapses and sometimes AH
gets to me, but the first two Steps always bring me back to my serenity. I, like you both, am still with AH, and
do not know if I will ever reach a point where there is no doubt in my mind that if AH were not in my life anymore
that I would not care, but for now I am not in a psychological bad place like I was before Al-Anon and MIP.
Very grateful for this board and Al-Anon.
SunnyFrogs said
Jan 8, 2021
I agree with Lyne, there's always something to learn and practice. That's why I so love reading different perspectives, they always give me food for thought and are so helpful.
Maresie888 said
Jan 8, 2021
I have been studying how a good relationship might work. I have never been abld to.engage with people who had maturity, balance and most of all boundaries, good healthy boundaries. Obviously that felt foreign to me.
Keep in mind that even though I am not in a committed relationship I have to negotiate many difficult situations on a daily basis. All day every day
The situations being incredibly dysfinctional sotiations in many sitiations. That is enmeshment and dysfunction in many many settimgs. That is like trying to navigate a boat through enemy territory.
At.the same time I was dealing with the alcoholic roommate (who I still deal with albeit on a limited basis), I was dealing with many many.dysfunctional situations at work, at home and in some of my friendships
Al anon does indeed give me some tools to negotiate them
However on another level being around enmeshment, favorotism, bullying, and lots of dysfunction was indeed very very triggering for me. Add that to the normal life issues, ill health, economic issues and the general givens we all have to negotiate at some time. That is definitely an overwhelming task with the wrong tool bag.
When I am triggered into complex post traumatic stress disorder states I lose a lot of perspective. I.focus on what is triggered for me which of course is brought up with urgemcy
Then needless to.say I had a militant virulent inner critic on top of that. One of my friends was kind enough to point that out.
Now I am of the opinion that certainly in any relationship.I was dealing with a great deal. However my part of the picture was being constantly in various states of post traumatic stress..
The ability to manage those was incredibly difficult. During all the therapy I had I was still barely able to manage that. I invested a tremendous amount of time and energy in that. Indeed I spent a great deal of money I did not have and still barely made it. Without therapy and al anon I certainly woukd have sucumbed to absolute despair.
Therefore certainly I was always going to be in a double bind with so many situations. In so many ways being codependent being overly soliticous, empathic, kinder to others than myself, doing 80% of the work in a relationship, was the best I could do. That was my.way to survive. Of course any alcoholic is going to jump.on any relationship that permits very little effort from them. Lashing out is indeed very little effort. All their effort is most certainly channeled into their addiction.
I have been around people who felt free to lash out on me all my life without question. Boundaries were a complete mystett to me Needless to say one of the signs of the dysfunction is they object to boundaries and resort to abuse when they are presented to them. So being codependent it was difficult to negotiate that
Codependency was indeed very much my way to.survive. i did that barely survived. Then I was ajways upset, confused and most of # triggered#
Then it became a way to drown in my.sorrows. i am grareful that I got to the point of detaching from it. Now I need a new wardrobe of skills. Shedding the cloak of codeoendency is not going to be easy. I am finding lots of anger, grief and frustration. The anger of course is particulsrly oernicious. However healthy anger is useful. Brooding resentful anger is not useful for me.
I am so grateful I got to have some perspective on this
Most of all I am grateful to be around people who are committed to recovery rather than languishing in blaming others.
Thank you all!!
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Saturday 9th of January 2021 07:54:13 AM
WendyP said
Jan 9, 2021
Hi Debb, just wanted to say that I am no longer and haven't been in a relationship with my Alcoholic for a long time. As I started to get better in Alanon, I chose not to even want to, as he was just so nasty and destructive to and for me. As I said, he tried to take everything and everyone off me, and wanted to destroy me. I knew that for my peace of mind, I had to take courage to walk away from him, as if I wanted to have any type of life, that was the way to go for me. He did something to my older Father, that I just couldn't get past, I use to say to myself, that if I wasn't important to anyone else, I was important to myself. I understood that he was an alcoholic, but the nastiness and his attitude I just couldn't accept.
Also, I was a tough head and spoke straight, I use to say to myself, that If I can't stand the heat in the Kitchen, I have to get out. But I did feel guilty at times, when others decided to stay in their marriages, but I just knew, it wasn't for me. With my large family, having the disease well and truly alive within them, that keeps me working my program to the best of my ablility.
I wish you well in your journey, and if you keep coming back, you will get better.
My love, thoughts and Prayers to you'
Love Wendy.
Maresie888 said
Jan 9, 2021
The former room.mate specializes in his petulant.displays.
Everything is about HIM and his issues. There is no room for anyone else
Thank God I do not have to deal with that on a daily basis
He is incredibly selfish
I am getting better and better at catching those who need to take up all the oxygen in the room
They are pretty common
Only they have issues.
They need your immediate attention.
They need it now!!
I have put up with that my entire life
I had an opportunity to practice JADE two evenings ago with AH. Believe it or not he was flipping out about a mouse that was scratching behind the corner baseboard of his bedroom. Was fit to be tied that he could not go to sleep in the room. I suggested he sleep on the couch. Sounds like a simple solution right? No, he had guzzled down 3 tall cans of beer that evening and was totally unreasonable, that is usually when he rants and verbally abuses me, which he did. Calling me names, telling me he wants a divorce and me off his employers health insurance, it is routine for me to hear this sort of abuse on a monthly basis, but this time he got in my face and followed me around as I attempted to remove myself from the room. The only thing I said to him was, and it was a new approach for me, it actually made him stop and wonder, I told him when he rants like that it feels like he is vomiting on me. I just spoke with him this morning for the first time in a day and a half and told him that I do not want this to happen anymore, that I am done, I got no argument, just a grunt of sorts. Thought I would share and hope that it helps everyone to see that they are not alone!!
JADE - Do not:
Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain
He is now in another marriage and according to our daughter (who is now 23) he is doing the same thing with his current wife. I have stayed out of alcoholic relationships for 11 years now (I was married to 3 alcoholics and this ACOA for a total of 4 alcoholic marriages that dealt with the family disease of alcoholism) and have no desire to go back into that crazy life. Sometimes we just have to know when we're done. It is different for each of us. For me it took 12 years from that marriage. I decided to go out again and marry a non-drinking alcoholic (dry drunk) thinking that would be better than living with a drinking alcoholic. It was not, it was worse! I stayed in that marriage 3 years, so at least I didn't stay in as long. The controlling and manipulation from that dysfunctional marriage put me in the mental hospital more than once. My point in telling all this is if we stay out there long enough (in the disease of alcoholism) we become as sick as the alcoholic.
No one can decide for another when to leave or if we should stay, that is up to each individual. Some are stronger than others and can practice JADE better than I was ever able to. I think that is the key though to successfully living with an actively drinking alcoholic (or a non-drinking one that is not in a program) whether you stay in this marriage or opt for divorce, Deb; I pray that you do what is best for you. Prayers for a more peaceful night tonight.
I have been, between 2002 to 2014 dealing with AH and his disease/rantings and then joined Al-Anon. Went from literally the bottom of the barrel mentally to near
total understanding of this disease. Al-Anon has saved my sanity and my life. AH can never hurt me again and he knows it. For some reason I still love him and
for that I need to ride this out.
(IAH)
Sorry you had to deal with that
At one point I said to the Qualifier. #this is everyday#
He backed off after that one
I can a very very contentious rekstionship with him
Really difficult. I.did not know how to set boundaries
Now I do
Settimg boundaries under those condotins is like being in the war zone
I try pretty hard not to engage with people like that
It is like steering
Of course I also keep myself very busy very very busy
I.went through so much of those verbal atracks with tug ennow ex roommate
He was really vicious.
It is hard to.endure that
Now he does not get to attack me anymore.
However of course I am no longer at his house.
Prioximity is everything.
Dear Deb
The qualifier expected me to fix stiff for him then he immediately disparaged it.
That was my norm
I applaud your use of the program
It truly was an enormous turning point when I stopped arguing
The qualifier also said many many humiliating things to me
I was so crestfallen by that
You do not deserve to be spoken to in that way
I had a phrase with the qualifier #every day#
Every single day he presented with some criss
For me acknowledging it was every day was a way to back off
I still put myself into states of exhaustion dealing with him but I had some respites
These are very hard times to be dealing with this stuff
This is an overwhelming time
I am so grateful to have found al anon
I am an avid reader
Codeoendency is a very difficult concept
Having the courage to deal with this is enormous
I have come a long long way
This year has been particularly challenging
Very very challenging
This will be like 9/11 we will be dealing with this for some time
I am so very grateful to be here
Maresie
My AF is long gone. I now have younger relatives who qualify me.
But mostly I always say the only qualifier i bring to meetings is myself.
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I have picked up on JADE lately because i still tend to explain far too much- about anything and everything.
When my kids were growing up youngest daughter used to sometimes say to me "too much information".
And that told me I was out of kilter with the rest of the world.
Hmmm I am explain a lot here... but this is the tight place. explaining and not complaining is a good place to be.
In the rooms I can try things out. Road test new ideas and approaches. Be amongst people who understand.
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Make mistakes without being put down and ridiculed!
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I am still catch myself doing the JADE thing but I am much better at catching it and what I do is a quick step number 10 and ask myself why are you explaining yourself to so-and-so? You dont owe them anything, like if I am ask to do something I dont want to do, no is simple enough. I dont owe anybody an explanation hey simple but kind no I dont want to, or I cannot do this, and sometimes if the relationship is really close loving one I might suggest an alternative or maybe briefly tell them why I cant do something but I dont go on and on and justify and argue and defend and explain myself anymore. I never thought I would progress in this area because I felt like my existence was an offense I felt like I had to apologize for being alive so for me to be able to say no and nothing more is a big step and I am just so Grateful.
A good example was last night I was at the CR meeting at church and I just do not approve of the room leader. I dont like her but I could have said that aside if she was a good room monitor but she is not at least it doesnt serve me, her meetings I dont get anything out of them. She has her favorites and it is very telling in her room so after Covid relaxed a little bit and the church opened up I think the final thing was when everybody either emailed me or telephoned me in our room and even out of our room and my senior citizens life point group I got flooded with calls and sympathy cards and some texts acknowledging my loss when my sister died and this girl nothing, and she knew I had a death in the family I found out she was told three times by three different people that all Rosie had a death in the family her sister died. Though I forgive it and I have let it go, I just dont want to be around her so when I got my year chip of being in the church recovery room and it was a year chip celebrating my commitment to step number three, she came up To me to greet me and was going to hug me but I sort of stepped aside and I thanked her and smiled but I stepped aside I did not want her to touch me. And that is my choice there are some people that I would love a hug from and did get a hug from
And There are others I would rather keep my distance from and she is definitely one of them LOL so I stepped aside and I said thank you and I just walked on and I was asked if I was going to go to her meeting afterwards and I just looked at her and very nicely said no thank you and I walked away and went to the snack bar and munched on some snacks and chatited up with some folks and got some congratulations for my chip and when I finished my snacks and it was time for everybody to go to their recovery rooms I just , after saying good night, I just walked out the front door and went home. I didnt justify I didnt argue I didnt defend or explain when she asked me if I was coming to the group meeting, and I felt pretty good about myself and my progress that I said a very nice no thank you and that was it
I am finally feeling like I can set a boundary or say no or whatever and I am worth it taking care of me and what is what I need and what is important to me.
It made me sad and kinda glad to read the shares here and to know I am not alone in the verbal abuse. I don't think I have said that before, that AH verbally abuses me over silly/trivial things just like the mouse scratching story. I used to overlook it and not say anything back but I guess I got to a point where I felt justified in throwing out even worse verbal abuse in return. This marriage has got to the point of seeing who can be the most degrading and twisted when we hurl the abuse. I am ashamed to admit that but it's the truth. And I have been working so hard to change what I do.
Yesterday, I had asked a simple question ,apparently one AH didn't want to be asked. He did the usual, started with the verbal abuse and threats of divorce, etc . Out of habit, I was gonna start hurling it back to him but instead got up and walked away.
It made me feel much better about myself to walk away. Even though the stuff he said was so extremely hurtful it didn't hurt as much as it would have if I had repeated an old habit.
It really makes me sad that we endure this kind of stuff and stay to endure more and call it love. Love shouldn't be this painful, it shouldn't be so hard, it shouldn't be something we have to work so hard at. It's not right or fair that we go through so much abuse and have to find ways to not let it get to us. It SHOULD get to is, it SHOULD hurt us and upset us, it SHOULD be something we get away from and stay away from. Not something we learn how to tune out and put up with.
I'm sorry if that was offensive to anyone. I guess I was speaking about myself and thinking out loud.
Love is about lifting each other up. It is not one-sided.
I WILL applaud you for trying something different... for not immediately going with the old habit. To do so is not always easy. Keep working it!
Now that I have a big picture of comolex ptad I seize on every situation to practice skills to bring me back to a place of calm determination
I.ceetainly had a lot of shame about some of my behaviors. Pf course zI have been around persons who were volatile, pernicious and just plain vicious. That kind of person requires a special skill set to be around. Indeed there are bullies everywhere . For me personally the understanding where JADE comes from is revolutionary. I am truly indebted to those.who have blazed the trail on complex ptsd
Therefore with that framework I can certainly correct myself. I am also truly indebted to a friend of mine who pointed out to me my inner critic was a force to be reckoned with. Those observations were the nucleus of the transformation I am at last able to put in place.
Al anon most definitely put in place a program that is very helpful in the scourge of codependence. Every day I am so grateful for the insight, tools and commitment to recovery I have found here. I am truly blessed.
Maresie
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When I chose to stop engaging/participating, it got worse before it got better. One or more of mine would follow me around, saying hurtful things and trying to push my buttons. The better I got at pausing and detaching, the less 'fun' it was for them and they literally either moved on or stopped. Even if we are the only ones in recovery, we are not the only ones changing. Trust me when I say that I prefer less conversation with my guys and more conversation with my gal pals vs. how it used to be!
I have only gotten 'here' - a place of unconditional acceptance and love for the alcoholics in my life by practicing this program as best I can, one day at a time. JADE has been a huge gift for me and has served me very, very well. I never heard it or considered it before recovery and had spent a ton of energy, resources, time, oxygen, etc. JADE'ng for years. The next best thing I heard in recovery that went really, really well with JADE was the fact that Yes and No are complete, stand-alone sentences. I'd never, ever, ever used a one word sentence in my life until I began to practice this program.
We often have much more personal power within us that we realize, and my power today is kept within my being. I will shut my mouth completely, walk out of the room, house, etc. if needed to not give away my power, my esteem, my joy. I will always, always choose being happy over being right and it's worked well for me. Never, ever, ever did I project that I and my AH would golf together and enjoy it. He's been a golfer long before we met and I hated the game. Yet, my sponsor, a golfer, got me involved and it's much safer than my favorite sport - softball. He's got a group of guys he plays with every day...I almost fell over on the floor when he invited me to play one day a few years ago....
Do what gives you peace today. Do what makes you calm today. Trust your program and practice our tools. The answers for each of us always come. There's no right/wrong way to recover, be married, etc. We each have our journey that truly is YOLO - you only live once. I remind myself when I feel uncertain or confused that this is not a dress rehearsal - do what brings me peace/joy!
(((Hugs))) - good on you for doing something different. Be proud - change is what recovery is all about.
So I am no longer applying JADE to a drinking situation. I am applying it to my world and my future. The things I might try to justify to myself- when there is no need to.
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HI Debb, on reading your sharing, it brought a smile to my face, as I remember my walking journey with my 2nd Alcoholic marriage, he was so nasty, he tried to take everyone and everything off me that he could. To turn people away from me, he even had my 2 adult children brainwashed against me. Even though they both knew that I was in Alanon, I tried to tell them what he was doing, sitting me up. But thankfully, I had enough program inside of me that I could see it. He was an everyday drinker, and very emotionally abusive, the 1st Alcoholic in my life, was physically violent. To me the second one damaged me worse, because you couldn't see the scars. The first one was a bender drinker, in some ways, I could handle that better, it gave me sometime to build up relief before the next event. I wasn't in Alanon with the first one.
The 2nd one was a follower, he use to drive me crazy, following me around, abusing me with everything he could. At that time, I didn't have my temper in control, I was a hot head and a fighter, would stand to toe with him. But Alanon had started to work for me, One night he got me, I tried so hard, but instead of standing toe to toe with him, I rang a friend in Alanon, I was crying, she said to come over. So I did, and cried my heart out, she was so lovely, gave me a hug,and she said to me, 'Did he get you'. With tears running down my face, I said "Yes".
She went on to tell me if he did it again, not to look him in the eye, look over his head, look anywhere, but not in his eyes. She also said, to when he is raving on, to whistle, or sing. I came home much better than I left. I remembered what she said, so the very next time I had someone following me around the Kitchen, I thought of what she said, I was telling myself, to sing, whistle. Well, I couldn't whistle, and all I could think of to sing was, Rock Of Ages. So here I was, walking around the kitchen table, singing Rock Of Ages, that's all I could think of, I couldn't remember any more words with this mad man chasing me behind. He soon gave up, and afterwards, I thought about it, and all I could do was laugh. Thinking to myself that if he thought I was crazy before, he would really think I was mad now. Singing Rock of Ages while he was ranting and raving.
Another time, I knew I was working so hard at my recovery, and just needed something from him to realize it,{Hah Hah}, so I said to him 'How come, I can get on with everyone, except you," Came the reply, [very quickly, might I add}, they don't have to live with you". All I could do was laugh, as I thought to myself, you sure set yourself up for that one didn't you".I have never heard of Jade, but I like it and will take that on board.
I knew I was getting better, when I started to laugh at myself. I am no longer near the active phase of the Disease, but plenty of other stuff. Thankfully, with Alanon I can keep sane.
As David G says, Each Alanon member is my teacher.
Love WendyP.
Al-Anon has given me the ability to see right through his rhetoric and stop the abuse. For me, it is not abuse if
I do not play into the game AH plays, in fact, for the most part when he does this ranting I actually feel sorry for
him, because to me he looks inhuman and desperate. Like you both, I do have a few lapses and sometimes AH
gets to me, but the first two Steps always bring me back to my serenity. I, like you both, am still with AH, and
do not know if I will ever reach a point where there is no doubt in my mind that if AH were not in my life anymore
that I would not care, but for now I am not in a psychological bad place like I was before Al-Anon and MIP.
Very grateful for this board and Al-Anon.
I have been studying how a good relationship might work. I have never been abld to.engage with people who had maturity, balance and most of all boundaries, good healthy boundaries. Obviously that felt foreign to me.
Keep in mind that even though I am not in a committed relationship I have to negotiate many difficult situations on a daily basis. All day every day
The situations being incredibly dysfinctional sotiations in many sitiations. That is enmeshment and dysfunction in many many settimgs. That is like trying to navigate a boat through enemy territory.
At.the same time I was dealing with the alcoholic roommate (who I still deal with albeit on a limited basis), I was dealing with many many.dysfunctional situations at work, at home and in some of my friendships
Al anon does indeed give me some tools to negotiate them
However on another level being around enmeshment, favorotism, bullying, and lots of dysfunction was indeed very very triggering for me. Add that to the normal life issues, ill health, economic issues and the general givens we all have to negotiate at some time. That is definitely an overwhelming task with the wrong tool bag.
When I am triggered into complex post traumatic stress disorder states I lose a lot of perspective. I.focus on what is triggered for me which of course is brought up with urgemcy
Then needless to.say I had a militant virulent inner critic on top of that. One of my friends was kind enough to point that out.
Now I am of the opinion that certainly in any relationship.I was dealing with a great deal. However my part of the picture was being constantly in various states of post traumatic stress..
The ability to manage those was incredibly difficult. During all the therapy I had I was still barely able to manage that. I invested a tremendous amount of time and energy in that. Indeed I spent a great deal of money I did not have and still barely made it. Without therapy and al anon I certainly woukd have sucumbed to absolute despair.
Therefore certainly I was always going to be in a double bind with so many situations. In so many ways being codependent being overly soliticous, empathic, kinder to others than myself, doing 80% of the work in a relationship, was the best I could do. That was my.way to survive. Of course any alcoholic is going to jump.on any relationship that permits very little effort from them. Lashing out is indeed very little effort. All their effort is most certainly channeled into their addiction.
I have been around people who felt free to lash out on me all my life without question. Boundaries were a complete mystett to me Needless to say one of the signs of the dysfunction is they object to boundaries and resort to abuse when they are presented to them. So being codependent it was difficult to negotiate that
Codependency was indeed very much my way to.survive. i did that barely survived. Then I was ajways upset, confused and most of # triggered#
Then it became a way to drown in my.sorrows. i am grareful that I got to the point of detaching from it. Now I need a new wardrobe of skills. Shedding the cloak of codeoendency is not going to be easy. I am finding lots of anger, grief and frustration. The anger of course is particulsrly oernicious. However healthy anger is useful. Brooding resentful anger is not useful for me.
I am so grateful I got to have some perspective on this
Most of all I am grateful to be around people who are committed to recovery rather than languishing in blaming others.
Thank you all!!
Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Saturday 9th of January 2021 07:54:13 AM
Hi Debb, just wanted to say that I am no longer and haven't been in a relationship with my Alcoholic for a long time. As I started to get better in Alanon, I chose not to even want to, as he was just so nasty and destructive to and for me. As I said, he tried to take everything and everyone off me, and wanted to destroy me. I knew that for my peace of mind, I had to take courage to walk away from him, as if I wanted to have any type of life, that was the way to go for me. He did something to my older Father, that I just couldn't get past, I use to say to myself, that if I wasn't important to anyone else, I was important to myself. I understood that he was an alcoholic, but the nastiness and his attitude I just couldn't accept.
Also, I was a tough head and spoke straight, I use to say to myself, that If I can't stand the heat in the Kitchen, I have to get out. But I did feel guilty at times, when others decided to stay in their marriages, but I just knew, it wasn't for me. With my large family, having the disease well and truly alive within them, that keeps me working my program to the best of my ablility.
I wish you well in your journey, and if you keep coming back, you will get better.
My love, thoughts and Prayers to you'
Love Wendy.
Everything is about HIM and his issues. There is no room for anyone else
Thank God I do not have to deal with that on a daily basis
He is incredibly selfish
I am getting better and better at catching those who need to take up all the oxygen in the room
They are pretty common
Only they have issues.
They need your immediate attention.
They need it now!!
I have put up with that my entire life