Exercise in taking stock of my words before I say them and mulling over the alcoholics world view.
Fedora said
May 5, 2020
Recently I've had some rough times with AH in that I lost my "center" and engaged in useless fights with him. I know better, and I've been contemplating how not to keep going back to zero in my own evolutionary process.
Today I was able to go to my office for most of the day and have a good day there. I also got to exercise outdoors. That gave me some "spirit ammunition" to be able to endure being at home.
When I went home, I decided that I would offer up a prayer to HP and say "please help me have the discernment not to open my mouth if I don't have to, because this will help me to avoid getting into a fight". When it came time to be with AH once mealtime and basic chores were done, I decided I needed to exercise my mind the way I have exercising my body.
I decided I would not say anything if it fell into one of the categories below
1) words that were pointed at "analyzing or diagnosing" AH
2) words that were pointed at hurting AH (revenge word bombs)
3) words that were pointed at "figuring out how much he drank today"
4) words that were about me unless I was invited to speak about me.
5) words that were about how we might "fix" or "manage stuff" in his/our life (managing the unmanageable)
Guess what? We had nothing to say. Complete silence for a solid 1/2 hr until I decided he was asleep and I left. I'm not actually sure he was really asleep but clearly his desire to converse was not present. I think that is pretty sad, but it was still an improvement over our conversations over the last 3 days. 20 years ago, before alcohol ruined everything, we used to talk for hours and hours at a time, every night. About a million topics. Now we're unable to converse without it turning into a fight.
AH has been having "tics" (like hiccups, but more like twitches). I am sure these are alcohol related. As is his memory loss, clumsiness, etc. etc. Until today, whenever we would in conversation range, he would mention these, and say how he had no idea what was going on. And I would always "correct" him and tell him it was the booze. And that went no where but in circles.
This evening (inspired by another poster, I'll say) I got to thinking a lot harder about what it must be like to be AH. To have a mind that has been so completely overrun by booze that all the exit doors are not just shut, but you can't even see where they are. There is only blackness and confusion (since the booze has planted the seed of denial so completely in the brain, any thought as to Why all the doors are concealed must just be a big mystery). I tried to imagine what it would be like to have forgotten that getting better is even an option.
When I think about it that way, it's a tiny bit easier to have compassion for him. But only because he is asleep. When he's awake, it is so hard. Especially when he is railing about everything and I think the answers are Right In Front of Us. The other day, he was starting down this conversation of "I'm so confused why ..." and I just cut it off. I said, "I'm not your therapist. I don't want to try and figure something out that is not figure-out-able by a non professional." Well that was a lead balloon (with spikes) but it was really how I felt.
Anyway, the other productive project I started was to try and find a new therapist for myself. I really hope I can visit someone in person versus doing a session over the phone, but I don't know how long it will be before one can do stuff like that.
-- Edited by Fedora on Tuesday 5th of May 2020 11:30:57 PM
Lyne said
May 6, 2020
Fedora, life with an alcoholic is extremely difficult. I usually do rather well but this sheltering in place has given us way too much time together. Im grateful I have a condo near my son, an hour away, and spend half the week there for the last 2 1/2 years. Im going there today.
My sponsor taught me: mean what you say, say what you mean, but dont say it mean. I try to work on that. Silence can be stressful too.
Good luck finding a new therapist. You might have to start with a FaceTime, skype, or zoom session, but most therapists are doing this. And then there is also the phone. I think by tone of voice and what the person says, you will know if he/she is right for you pretty quickly. Lyne
2HP said
May 6, 2020
Great post about observing yourself, applause applause!!! staying on your side of the street and letting go of thoughts of HIM. Just observing how... when he does THIS, I do THAT... they act and we react... his disease triggered "dis-ease" in me and that is how it controlled my life.
Alcoholics have a drinking problem and Al-anons have a thinking problem, as they say.
You are powerless over HIM and what he does, but not you and the thoughts you choose and permit. You say you dont want words to fall out of your mouth but that all begins in the mind which is why they gave us simple slogans to substitute. when I am thinking miserable thoughts, I am going to be miserable. watch the battlefield inside the mind and perhaps you will find as I did, this is more than enough to try and control, lol
(((detachment))) helps me to back up... back up... and see myself on the stage. see how thinking results in the emotions that arise in me, nobody is responsible for that but me!! just as we don't cause them to drink... nobody is responsible for causing me to think the way I do.. same, same. it is easy to get hooked by the behavior of an alcoholic... unless I think of him as a fisherman laying the bait for me... just waiting for me to bite the hook... whenever I do, I'm suddenly being swept away again again, life feeling unmanageable, helpless and hopeless.
I learned to enjoy the silence, silence was golden! (duct tape is silver and I often thought I needed some to maintain the peace I claimed to desire.)
ESH on counseling. I tried that too. for years. I did not seek out an addiction specialist though so it went nowhere. I ended up paying thousands for some sympathy, which did not help to change a thing under our roof.
Al-anon turned out to be best counseling for me and worked much faster because it taught me to observe myself on a daily continuous basis. to observe how I was bringing myself more misery or more serenity...? I do have that power. Willingness in al-anon put me on the fast track, I took all suggestions and especially getting a sponsor. solutions came very quickly.
If all you have done is come to this site, I did that too for the first 18 months but it's a bit like passing notes around a classroom. some enjoy social media friendship and that relief is enough for them which is great. when I got a real life sponsor, made real meetings and began to build up a daily routine to study, pray and meditate, solutions came together very quickly and I marveled that it only cost me a donation in the basket.
all the best!!! you deserve it
PosiesandPuppies said
May 6, 2020
Great job, Fedora!!!
You are taking care of YOU!!
I remember all too well the feeling I had when I finally realized and accepted that my spouse and I no longer had anything in common. Not only that, but the capability of stimulating, rational conversation was a void wasteland as well. It took me a very long time to accept and then mourn the loss of the person that I had once shared all my hopes, dreams, and goals with. My spouse did a lot of "Poor me," or "Why me's?" We spent a ton of money on medical diagnosis (before I knew it was addiction/alcoholism). Towards the end, I had to adopt many of these phrases: "Really? That must be tough." "You may be right." "You should go see your doctor." and finally, just "Uh huh." True to form, he began accusing me of not caring, not being a loving wife. At first that cut to the core... I tried explaining - or as it is said here, JADE'ing - I would tell him, "I love you too deeply. We both know what you need to do, but you refuse to acknowledge there is a problem and get help, and I can't keep fighting about it." That statement was not met well, and I got information here and with my sponsor about JADE'ing, so I only said that once. After getting ESH on this, I was better equipped to know in my heart that his accusations of "I didn't love him/not a supportive wife" wasn't true and I began to say, "I am sorry you feel that way, it is not my intention." I said it a lot.
Al-Anon helped me find my truth, and then gave me the strength to stand in my truth!
Wishing you strength, peace, and good health!
I am editing this b/c I know at first I said "You SHOULD go see your doctor," but that was a "charged" statement as well b/c of the word "should" - my sponsor told me that! So it ended up morphing into, "What does your doctor say?" Or, "Honey, I am not a doctor."
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 09:23:00 AM
Bettertomorrow said
May 7, 2020
Hi Fedora,
Sending you lots of ((( )))s and support.
I really like the way you chose to focus on what you would and wouldn't say and chose not to engage with your qualifier in terms of analysing / diagnosing him, hurting him or figuring out how much he drank. I know it's really hard not to engage in those type of thoughts or words when you are in the thick of it, but you have proved to yourself that you do have choices.
I am there with you in spirit (and reality in my own corner of the world). When my AH has been drinking (most of the time!) I try really hard just to acknowledge that in my head and remind myself that any attempt at logical / rational / supportive conversation with him is outside his current skill zone and move on and focus on me.
Thinking of you and hoping that today is a better day for you. x
-- Edited by Bettertomorrow on Thursday 7th of May 2020 08:57:01 AM
Bo said
May 7, 2020
"Guess what? We had nothing to say."
Very telling, and brings back some very vivid memories for me...but at that time, I could not verbalize what you just did! You hit the nail on the head for me. It's like -- yes, that was it. Period. I just couldn't verbalize it.
Thanks for your share. Such great insight!
Maresie888 said
May 7, 2020
When I.stopped arguing with ny wualifuer there was a huge amount of energy keft for me. I would only do it because the program suggested it
I am glad you can work out ways to save your sanity.
I worked on a plan b for a lomg time. I got a lot of mileage out of not having to act on it.
I am so grateful for your shares. They are
so rich in recovery.
JerryF said
May 7, 2020
I agree with maresie888's gratitude especially they are so rich in recovery. Thank you all. (((hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
May 8, 2020
Fedora,
Big hugs this stuff is HARD. The part that actually popped out at me was the health issues. That ticking is so not good, my X did that and it was like his brain was short circuiting. He actually had seizure like fits where he would be having some kind of grand mal, yup he would be doing the floppy chicken on the ground .. it was scary. I could never get him into the dr for them to address it. We kept hearing anxiety and the reality was it was anxiety as well as other factors in there. The other thing is I think that was something that was hereditary too, along the lines of anxiety driven Tourettes. I say this because my oldest kid went through a scary thing in dealing with his anxiety that put him in the hospital. One of the few times I wish I had more dialog with my X regarding the kids because his family history would be SO good to have for them so we could know some of what we were dealing with, while my oldest was growing up. Anyways, the ticking for my son was a small indicator of the anxiety bomb that was going off inside of him. When he went to college he drank more to settle it as well as was doing other things on top of taking his meds not the way the dr prescribed. It just was not pretty how he chose to handle it.
Anyways, keep taking care of you, this is all so hard and frustrating. What you are experiencing is a very normal response to a very abnormal situation. There is no one who has the right to tell you otherwise .. letting go of the urge to control was big for me, because it (alcohol) can't be reasoned with or rationalized or bargained with, it really is so hard. What I learned to do with my X and his health stuff is I had to step away, because it was crazy making .. you can't make someone care about their health no matter how much you care about them. You can stop causing your own pain and take your power back. I had a little more say with my oldest and his stuff because he was living at home and I was not going down that road again and he knew it. No more crazy inside my house, I have had my fill of it.
What you are feeling is completely valid and rational given the abnormal circumstances of living with active alcoholism. Staying within the relationship is finding the healthiest coping skills to help you remain sane in a totally insane situation. It's really about finding you and letting go of the use to be's, should be's, could be's and want to be's. That's all fantasy at this point, it's all about focusing on today.
Recently I've had some rough times with AH in that I lost my "center" and engaged in useless fights with him. I know better, and I've been contemplating how not to keep going back to zero in my own evolutionary process.
Today I was able to go to my office for most of the day and have a good day there. I also got to exercise outdoors. That gave me some "spirit ammunition" to be able to endure being at home.
When I went home, I decided that I would offer up a prayer to HP and say "please help me have the discernment not to open my mouth if I don't have to, because this will help me to avoid getting into a fight". When it came time to be with AH once mealtime and basic chores were done, I decided I needed to exercise my mind the way I have exercising my body.
I decided I would not say anything if it fell into one of the categories below
1) words that were pointed at "analyzing or diagnosing" AH
2) words that were pointed at hurting AH (revenge word bombs)
3) words that were pointed at "figuring out how much he drank today"
4) words that were about me unless I was invited to speak about me.
5) words that were about how we might "fix" or "manage stuff" in his/our life (managing the unmanageable)
Guess what? We had nothing to say. Complete silence for a solid 1/2 hr until I decided he was asleep and I left. I'm not actually sure he was really asleep but clearly his desire to converse was not present. I think that is pretty sad, but it was still an improvement over our conversations over the last 3 days. 20 years ago, before alcohol ruined everything, we used to talk for hours and hours at a time, every night. About a million topics. Now we're unable to converse without it turning into a fight.
AH has been having "tics" (like hiccups, but more like twitches). I am sure these are alcohol related. As is his memory loss, clumsiness, etc. etc. Until today, whenever we would in conversation range, he would mention these, and say how he had no idea what was going on. And I would always "correct" him and tell him it was the booze. And that went no where but in circles.
This evening (inspired by another poster, I'll say) I got to thinking a lot harder about what it must be like to be AH. To have a mind that has been so completely overrun by booze that all the exit doors are not just shut, but you can't even see where they are. There is only blackness and confusion (since the booze has planted the seed of denial so completely in the brain, any thought as to Why all the doors are concealed must just be a big mystery). I tried to imagine what it would be like to have forgotten that getting better is even an option.
When I think about it that way, it's a tiny bit easier to have compassion for him. But only because he is asleep. When he's awake, it is so hard. Especially when he is railing about everything and I think the answers are Right In Front of Us. The other day, he was starting down this conversation of "I'm so confused why ..." and I just cut it off. I said, "I'm not your therapist. I don't want to try and figure something out that is not figure-out-able by a non professional." Well that was a lead balloon (with spikes) but it was really how I felt.
Anyway, the other productive project I started was to try and find a new therapist for myself. I really hope I can visit someone in person versus doing a session over the phone, but I don't know how long it will be before one can do stuff like that.
-- Edited by Fedora on Tuesday 5th of May 2020 11:30:57 PM
My sponsor taught me: mean what you say, say what you mean, but dont say it mean. I try to work on that. Silence can be stressful too.
Good luck finding a new therapist. You might have to start with a FaceTime, skype, or zoom session, but most therapists are doing this. And then there is also the phone. I think by tone of voice and what the person says, you will know if he/she is right for you pretty quickly. Lyne
Alcoholics have a drinking problem and Al-anons have a thinking problem, as they say.
You are powerless over HIM and what he does, but not you and the thoughts you choose and permit. You say you dont want words to fall out of your mouth but that all begins in the mind which is why they gave us simple slogans to substitute. when I am thinking miserable thoughts, I am going to be miserable. watch the battlefield inside the mind and perhaps you will find as I did, this is more than enough to try and control, lol
(((detachment))) helps me to back up... back up... and see myself on the stage. see how thinking results in the emotions that arise in me, nobody is responsible for that but me!! just as we don't cause them to drink... nobody is responsible for causing me to think the way I do.. same, same. it is easy to get hooked by the behavior of an alcoholic... unless I think of him as a fisherman laying the bait for me... just waiting for me to bite the hook... whenever I do, I'm suddenly being swept away again again, life feeling unmanageable, helpless and hopeless.
I learned to enjoy the silence, silence was golden! (duct tape is silver and I often thought I needed some to maintain the peace I claimed to desire.)
ESH on counseling. I tried that too. for years. I did not seek out an addiction specialist though so it went nowhere. I ended up paying thousands for some sympathy, which did not help to change a thing under our roof.
Al-anon turned out to be best counseling for me and worked much faster because it taught me to observe myself on a daily continuous basis. to observe how I was bringing myself more misery or more serenity...? I do have that power. Willingness in al-anon put me on the fast track, I took all suggestions and especially getting a sponsor. solutions came very quickly.
If all you have done is come to this site, I did that too for the first 18 months but it's a bit like passing notes around a classroom. some enjoy social media friendship and that relief is enough for them which is great. when I got a real life sponsor, made real meetings and began to build up a daily routine to study, pray and meditate, solutions came together very quickly and I marveled that it only cost me a donation in the basket.
all the best!!! you deserve it
Great job, Fedora!!!
You are taking care of YOU!!
I remember all too well the feeling I had when I finally realized and accepted that my spouse and I no longer had anything in common. Not only that, but the capability of stimulating, rational conversation was a void wasteland as well. It took me a very long time to accept and then mourn the loss of the person that I had once shared all my hopes, dreams, and goals with.
My spouse did a lot of "Poor me," or "Why me's?" We spent a ton of money on medical diagnosis (before I knew it was addiction/alcoholism). Towards the end, I had to adopt many of these phrases: "Really? That must be tough." "You may be right." "You should go see your doctor." and finally, just "Uh huh." True to form, he began accusing me of not caring, not being a loving wife. At first that cut to the core... I tried explaining - or as it is said here, JADE'ing - I would tell him, "I love you too deeply. We both know what you need to do, but you refuse to acknowledge there is a problem and get help, and I can't keep fighting about it." That statement was not met well, and I got information here and with my sponsor about JADE'ing, so I only said that once. After getting ESH on this, I was better equipped to know in my heart that his accusations of "I didn't love him/not a supportive wife" wasn't true and I began to say, "I am sorry you feel that way, it is not my intention." I said it a lot.
Al-Anon helped me find my truth, and then gave me the strength to stand in my truth!
Wishing you strength, peace, and good health!
I am editing this b/c I know at first I said "You SHOULD go see your doctor," but that was a "charged" statement as well b/c of the word "should" - my sponsor told me that! So it ended up morphing into, "What does your doctor say?" Or, "Honey, I am not a doctor."
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 09:23:00 AM
Hi Fedora,
Sending you lots of ((( )))s and support.
I really like the way you chose to focus on what you would and wouldn't say and chose not to engage with your qualifier in terms of analysing / diagnosing him, hurting him or figuring out how much he drank. I know it's really hard not to engage in those type of thoughts or words when you are in the thick of it, but you have proved to yourself that you do have choices.
I am there with you in spirit (and reality in my own corner of the world). When my AH has been drinking (most of the time!) I try really hard just to acknowledge that in my head and remind myself that any attempt at logical / rational / supportive conversation with him is outside his current skill zone and move on and focus on me.
Thinking of you and hoping that today is a better day for you. x
-- Edited by Bettertomorrow on Thursday 7th of May 2020 08:57:01 AM
Very telling, and brings back some very vivid memories for me...but at that time, I could not verbalize what you just did! You hit the nail on the head for me. It's like -- yes, that was it. Period. I just couldn't verbalize it.
Thanks for your share. Such great insight!
I agree with maresie888's gratitude especially they are so rich in recovery. Thank you all. (((hugs)))
Big hugs this stuff is HARD. The part that actually popped out at me was the health issues. That ticking is so not good, my X did that and it was like his brain was short circuiting. He actually had seizure like fits where he would be having some kind of grand mal, yup he would be doing the floppy chicken on the ground .. it was scary. I could never get him into the dr for them to address it. We kept hearing anxiety and the reality was it was anxiety as well as other factors in there. The other thing is I think that was something that was hereditary too, along the lines of anxiety driven Tourettes. I say this because my oldest kid went through a scary thing in dealing with his anxiety that put him in the hospital. One of the few times I wish I had more dialog with my X regarding the kids because his family history would be SO good to have for them so we could know some of what we were dealing with, while my oldest was growing up. Anyways, the ticking for my son was a small indicator of the anxiety bomb that was going off inside of him. When he went to college he drank more to settle it as well as was doing other things on top of taking his meds not the way the dr prescribed. It just was not pretty how he chose to handle it.
Anyways, keep taking care of you, this is all so hard and frustrating. What you are experiencing is a very normal response to a very abnormal situation. There is no one who has the right to tell you otherwise .. letting go of the urge to control was big for me, because it (alcohol) can't be reasoned with or rationalized or bargained with, it really is so hard. What I learned to do with my X and his health stuff is I had to step away, because it was crazy making .. you can't make someone care about their health no matter how much you care about them. You can stop causing your own pain and take your power back. I had a little more say with my oldest and his stuff because he was living at home and I was not going down that road again and he knew it. No more crazy inside my house, I have had my fill of it.
What you are feeling is completely valid and rational given the abnormal circumstances of living with active alcoholism. Staying within the relationship is finding the healthiest coping skills to help you remain sane in a totally insane situation. It's really about finding you and letting go of the use to be's, should be's, could be's and want to be's. That's all fantasy at this point, it's all about focusing on today.
Big hugs S :)