We made a decision last week at my home group business meeting to tell a man whose behavior has been inappropriate towards women Inoue group for awhile that he's no longer welcome. I was taken aback when it was another man who raised the issue and said he'd noticed and was aware of at least one woman who had left the group because of it. It's difficult to know if others have left because of him. I have chosen to keep coming back because I like my group. I confronted the guy awhile back with another member and he's had no direct interaction with me since but has done some passive aggressive stuff for attention which I've chosen to ignore. When the issue went to a vote, everyone seemed to know who it was without naming. It was decided that a few people from the group who know him outside the group would tell him privately that he is no longer welcome in the meeting. Someone mentioned that he was ousted from another group but not the reason. I learned this week that the man who was not in attendance the day of our business meeting, had died that day.
It was announced this week. We were a small group and one person had commented that maybe people who were in attendance last week thought the man would come this week and didn't want to face him knowing they'd voted him out.
I had felt somewhat conflicted in my feelings when I heard this news. At first I only felt shock and relief. I'd had alot of trouble with him, reported him within the program and then mustered the courage to confront him with another member beside me and insist he have to interactions with me. Each week I've felt worried about what he might do. He's physically gotten in my space just enough to cause discomfort and even interrupted my conversation with someone after our meeting as if I were not there or speaking to the person. It was hard to leave the meeting with serenity at these times.
So now I feel freed in a way to attend my meeting in peace. I was even worried that he would have thought I was the one to raise the motion to have him ejected from our meeting. He'd tried to get me alone to talk to me there after being warned by another member as well to keep away from me. I thought omg what if he shows up after because he knows I wait for my ride.
I have felt uneasy about not feeling sadness concerning his passing. I have found my way to praying for him, his family and the girlfriend I and other members just learned about.
Thank you for letting me share with you. If you have anything to share about struggling with not grieving someone I'd appreciate reading it. TT
Jozie said
Feb 4, 2020
(((TT)))
First I want to Say, that I'm Sorry this Person Made you feel Uncomfortable in your "Safe" Place... I know what My Meetings Mean to Me, and I'm Very Limited on where I Can Go, due to only having Limited Meetings in my Area... I'm Sure that was Hard, and I'm Sorry you Experienced that... :/
I too have Experienced No Remorse in the Passing of Someone I knew, it wasn't in my Meetings, but this person, was Just NOT a Nice Person, Hurt People on Purpose, made a Spectacle of their self All the time just for Attention, and it didn't help that they was a Raging Alcoholic/Coke Addict... And this was Before My Program... But Like you, I Still Chose to Pray for their Family... Mainly Because I Knew these People Loved them, Even if I Couldn't See Why!
I Once Told someone I wasn't Sad at all they was Gone, when they Ask Me "How I Felt" and they was In Shock I Could say such a thing about someone who past away! But they did Not Experience My Interactions with this Person, they didn't Know how Unpredictable their behavior was... So how they Viewed My Feelings really didn't Effect me Much... I Still to this Day, 2 decades Later, STILL feel the Same...
Since my Program, I Can Look at their Family Now and See How Bad their Behavior has Effected Each of them, and Now I Continue to Pray for them, Because I Can't Come to believe that person was a Good Person, but I can Pray that their HP Will show them a Better way of Life... Or So I Pray :)
Thanks for Your Honest Share... I appreciate HONESTY More Now then I Ever did before ;)
Please Take what you Like and Leave the Rest
Jozie
Maresie888 said
Feb 4, 2020
Boundaries are so.hard for us. Lately I have had laryngitis for weeks. On some level it is good. Not being able to talk means I dont say anything back when I am triggered. Also as it is so.hard to.talk I choose carefully what I say
Iamhere said
Feb 5, 2020
(((TT))) - what recovery has shown me and taught me is I really, really need to practice being true to myself. So, so often in our lives, we are conditioned by society, family, others to respond in a certain way which may/may not be authentic. That has not served me well at all as I reflect on my life and days gone by. Where I've practice and improved is examining what is, finding some good in it (because there is always a lesson) and then consider what makes sense for me!
I believe it perfectly fine to pray for those who are suffering the loss. It helps me also in times like this to reflect on the fact that we are all imperfect in different ways. There is also no shame at all in feeling relief, safety and free from the way his spirit/actions/words affected you. If I can offer anything, it would just be, "To Thine Own Self, Be True".
I have continued to pray for you, your group, your friend who passed and will keep it up! Hang in there, but I know deep down that you got this!
mamalioness said
Feb 5, 2020
(((((((((((((((tiredtonight)))))))))))))))))) so sorry that you felt that way in your safe place and I am glad that finally they voted him out of there.....and yea, being true to you is the most important thing...You have the RIGHT to feel safe at your own meeting..... AND I am with Jozie in that there are some folks, tho sad for their families, I was NOT sad when they passed on....I am HONEST now with my feelings and with others, learning to use more tact in my honesty, and sometimes I just refrain from saying anything, but when asked or approached, HONESTY is the hallmark to my life...i had to live with so much DIShonesty and phoniness that now, I crave honesty within me and outside of me...it is OK not to feel bad over the passing of another....my father was a monster...was I sad when HE passed???? HECK NO!!! He was a vessel of darkness....He left behind death, despair, hopelessness, misery...his legacy was NOTHING good...noone i spoke to, after his death had anything good to say about him.....Some folks are just NOT good people, AT all!!!! and I see it and don't anymore deny, that there are just BAD people out there and my job is to NOT deny it but to see it...accept it...avoid them like the plague....praying for you and your group mates....
SerenityRUS said
Feb 5, 2020
Hugs TT,
It's unfortunate however that kind of behavior is not just relegated to in person meetings I have seen it on the boards as well. Specifically people pretending to be who they are not and it's very easy to hide behind a keyboard in that manner.
I am very impressed you stood up for yourself, I love the fact that another man stood up and said hey this isn't ok. I find it interesting that this kind of thing is something I have found myself going .. was that meant the way I took it, it made me feel uncomfortable and maybe I just imagined it. This is exactly how I rationalize away poor behavior by others and why it's so wonderful that someone else said .. hey .. wait a min and you recognized that this was an issue. You had your feelings of unease validated because it's important to learn to trust your gut .. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck .. I bet it's a duck.
BIG HUGS .. I am very sorry that you were put in that position, I'm so proud of you for standing up for YOU as well as others who haven't found their voice. It's so important to support people who are trying to heal from people who are either intentionally being disruptive by trolling as I call it or the other person is truly clueless about their behavior. I tend to actually believe the other people push the boundaries and do things to cause and uproar hoping that they get the "pass". Usually the perpetrator has already done this kind of behavior and is looking to continue it. I'm kind of over the pass if you can't tell .. LOL.
Good for you my friend, keep doing you!!!
S :)
Jill said
Feb 5, 2020
TT, You did exactly as I did with a difficult person in my recovery. I said my truth out loud to him. I had support with me.
I came to a disturbing understanding that it was not my job to judge him. You have done the same.
My job was to set and enforce my boundary.
He recently died. I decided to attend his ceremony. I didn't know that I would leave there comforted, but I was. It put an end to my angst.
If you continue to disapprove of or feel uncomfortable about yourself for not grieving, consider a private or even imaginary ceremony. You deserve whatever it takes to celebrate you and your growth.
All the best to you!
Sandberg25 said
Feb 5, 2020
-Looking for advice=
My brother had issues with alcohol about 7-10 years ago. Since then he has had his drinking under control. However, he had a close friend pass away about two weeks ago, and over about three days, drank himself into the hospital. I'm not sure whether or not to ride him about falling off the wagon, or just hope he can bring himself back to the good place he was in.
He's 45 years old and lives with a woman with three young boys. He's not a violent or abusive drunk, but those boys look at him as a role model.
Any input from you guys with more experience with this than me.
tiredtonite said
Feb 5, 2020
Thanks ((everyone))) for your understanding, encouragement and warm support. I can see that you really do understand.
Thank you ((Jozie))) for validating my feelings of fear, anger and resentment concerning his behavior. I'm sorry that you've had such an experience. It's sadder yet that the ugliness continues in the family after such a person is gone. I hope your prayers are answered and this person's family finds recovery. Yes, Alanon should be a "safe place." Of course, I think we all know that everyone comes with their own baggage. I feel I'm almost through these feelings concerning his death at this point. I'm at that place of "hating the disease, not the person." Also... I don't need to take what I liked and leave the rest because I liked everything. I'm grateful for everything everyone shares with me because it takes time to respond and you can choose to respond to posts other than mine, thank you :)
((serenityrus))) Thanks for saying you're proud of me for standing up for myself. The woman who was with me, gave up the meeting. She confronted him as well with her sponsor. I am hoping she returns now. At the time, he acted indignant and said, "I'm a nice guy!" I let know without details that I didn't believe he was and he was to stay away from me. Another woman who just died recently (another post of mine) confronted him, warned him and began waiting with me after meetings until my ride came. If I am to be honest here, when she died I remember blurting out at home in my grief why couldn't have been him instead of her. When I'd first reported it to her she wasn't entirely sure that I wasn't blow the situation out of proportion. She told me she wasn't sure if he really knew what he was doing. I almost blew a gasket. What you wrote about doing things to cause an uproar is precisely what was going on. All during our meetings, he interjected to bring the focus to him and off the sharer. The guy was relentless and also sneaky with coming on to women in the group by coming early when one was there alone and lingering after for the same reason. Yet when all was said and done, women left and others were uncomfortable with consistently distancing themselves from him and were congenial to him again despite the fact that they were uncomfortable with him behavior. We also know this is a dangerous area because people men and women come into the program looking for help and are often vulnerable. It was a unanimous vote to have him not return to our meeting place.
(((Maresie))) thanks for your support and I hope you feel better very soon. I refer to my times of feeling ill as "forced surrender." Those times sure give us time to think a bit about responding vs reacting.
(((Iam))) thank you for the prayers for myself and the group. Since we were such a small group last week, likely an announcement will be made again this week concerning this man's death. I think you make a good point concerning societal norms. It's maybe just not "nice" to not feel badly when someone loses their life. Of course if there is physical suffering and one can feel that person is now at peace. I've had more time to process my feelings and as an imperfect person with my own issues, I feel compassion for this man and where he was at in his recovery. With that said, I do believe in what is for the greater good of an Alanon group as a whole. I have not regrets about voting him out of our group and being vocal about his misdeeds directly to him as well as my group. Here's what I regret as a person who very much believe that people can change for the better. I regret that he will never have an opportunity to come back to our group with changed behaviors that would allow him to welcomed into our Alanon family again. Thanks so much for your support. I have no doubts today as to who I am and my boundaries. I am proud of how I handled the situation at the time. I in no way attacked him, name called or belittled him in any way despite the fact that I believe his behavior was mean't to impose his will on others and intimidate. I just stated my boundary clearly and my expectation that it be respected. Nothing wishy washy .. direct and had him affirm he understood and I left. So thankfully, I don't have to making amends to someone who is no longer in this world. Although it wouldn't be the first time I had to make that kind of amends; I consider this to be progress.
((((Rose))) thank you for your support. I have followed your shares and your feelings concerning your father are very understandable. He sounds like he was a very ill man. With that said, I do agree that there are people who are "bad." Their motivations are not to be trusted and I don't think it can be assigned away to mental illness. In my life, this has called for detaching with an axe. I accept the situation for what it is but keep myself out of harm's way. Thank you for responding. It's nice to have you back with us. I appreciate your insights.
Thanks (((Jill))) I'm sorry to hear you've had this experience too at an Alanon group but glad you were true to yourself and confronted the person. "My job was to set and enforce my boundary." I think that pretty much covered it for me as well. I had to be firm and clear about what my boundary was and sever all communication from him from then on because this was the kind of person who was waiting for an opening any opening. I like your idea about an imaginary ceremony. I believe I'm through the other side with this at this point but I have used similiar things in the past. I've worked through feelings when loved ones died and I couldn't be with them at the end by journalling. Writing a letter to them helped me to let go and to heal.
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2020
(((TT))) - love your share and your processing. What you share as you consider this entire situation is what keeps me coming back...we just keep striving for progress, and work to learn from each experience - which, for me - is so vastly different than how I acted/reacted before recovery. Keep doing what you're doing - I am glad you're part of our journey here and suspect your group is also blessed with you a part of! (((Hugs)))
tiredtonite said
Feb 6, 2020
Thank you ((Iam))) You're very kind. TT
Bo said
Feb 6, 2020
Life is about conflicting feelings -- bittersweet, double-edge sword, the devil you know, and so on. Life is about difficulty, decisions, dealing with, addressing, handling, etc. Sure, nothing is absolute. I get that.
We do the best we can, with the tools, resources, knowledge, and more, that we have at that time. And, we learn.
That's how we grow. That's how we get better.
SerenityRUS said
Feb 7, 2020
TT,
Your OP really struck a nerve for me because I have seen way to many times and done it myself .. the rationalization of OMG I didn't behave like a "good girl". I wasn't quiet. I made waves. I made my voice heard. I wasn't clean. I was messy. I shouldn't do those kinds of things. I was not a "good girl" in that situation.
There is NOTHING conflicting about how you responded to that situation .. the only thing conflicted and this is totally my observation and opinion was the whole "was I a good girl? Did I do something wrong?" stance of what I'm reading in your original post. I have a multitude of thoughts on this specific subject only because of I like to play pool in bars .. LOL .. I know right and I don't drink while doing it because two factors .. I am a woman and I have seen the poor behavior of some men who think that because I'm alone they have the right to act in a way that isn't ok. So I have learned a LOT of boundaries when it comes to where I play, who I play with and so on .. I love to play pool. Why should the fact I'm a woman make it harder for me to have a passion. I choose not to drink in that situation .. I choose safety first. As I have gotten older I am more appreciated for my game than my looks .. LOL. I'm ok with that.
A nice person does not behave like that .. a nice person does not prey on the vulnerable .. a nice person is what you see is what you get and whatever baggage they have going on doesn't make someone feel the need to protect themselves. That's not a judgement .. that's a fact.
People who are not playing by the same society rules are going to be very random about confrontation. They are going to make it about themselves. They are going to deflect. It sounds like that's what happened to you. A good therapist is going to tell you the same thing. They are going to say that behavior was NOT ok and you were right to take up space, use your voice, and not be minimized. You didn't scream and throw a tantrum .. you were clear about how you felt and why. Not that you even owed that explanation. I am more upset that you felt unprotected and needed to have someone with you because NO ONE should have to feel like that. Every human being should feel safe and the fact that someone has violated that trust is NOT ok.
You can still be a bigger person as Jill was and attend a funeral and not dance on the grave in a hot red dress .. because you are the bigger person. Someday I wish to be like Jill .. lol.
Oof .. I'm so sorry to go on .. however .. this is such a HOT button for me .. LOL. I could write pages about this stuff given the statistics and so on of what I do daily. I already stated this .. what you chose to do was extremely courageous, how you chose to handle it was brave because when I was in my 20's I don't handle the situations in the pool hall the same way now that I'm .. older .. LOL. It is brave when someone takes their power back. That's courage to live outside of your comfort zone and still be true to your program. That's BIG my friend. Sooo big that is growth and that is the flip side of step 1. I am powerful in myself. My sponsor and I had glorious conversations about that!!! I am powerless over nouns .. girlfriend, I am powerful within myself. Own the power .. lol .. it's a great place to come from because it's honest and true to you.
Hugs S :)
tiredtonite said
Feb 7, 2020
Thanks for your response ((Bo))) Yep, it's great to have recovery.
Thanks (((serenityrus))) I'm not sure my posts really explained my feelings clearly so I'm going to try to be clearer in this response. I brought someone along when I confronted this person because I wanted a witness to the boundary I was setting which was that he was to stay away from and have no communication with me whatsoever. I have really never been afraid of him just angered by his conniving behavior his manipulation. This was the kind of person who continued to do and say the kinds of things he had attempted with me with other women in my group. He would do it right under my nose which had me feeling he was sending me a message that even if he couldn't get away with these kinds of things with me, I could witness that he could get away with them with others who would nervously laugh it off. This really infuriated me. I didn't waste any time reporting him and I went up the ladder so to speak to do so.
I should mention that the culture where I live now is quite different than the one I came from. Here people in general are hesitant to confront anyone on much of any thing. My greatest disappointment is that it seems to me that another man had to call the situation out to a room full of these women before it had credibility. At that point, it seemed they gave authority to it and were willing to take action despite the fact that at least three women had reported him.
The woman who waited with me after the meetings and I are not from here. We relocated from different states, both lived in no nonsense cities where you learn to take care yourself - neither of being afraid to speak up. But I will say that before the program I would have confronted but then either quit a class, club etc. I would have just disappeared like my other meeting member did. I'm grateful I stuck with this program because it's resulted in many years of being true to myself of being a self actualized person. I take actions today because they're the right actions for myself. I don't take actions to prove I'm a "strong woman." lol It's trending you know When you know who you are, you really don't feel a need to prove anything to anyone.
My group is going to go on and we are all going to recover from where each of us is. There is no stopping people who show up looking for a little extra action. There will be others. And.. they aren't just men. Also, I understand when you say it's a "hot button" for you. But one thing I've considered through all of this is that what may be unacceptable behavior to me just might not be to someone else. We all come with our own brand of sickness so I can't assume another's feelings about being on the receiving end of something like this. So as repulsive an experience as i found this to be, someone else might have found it to be delightful attention. My job in the program is keep recovering, to support and in sponsorship help others to identify what they themself are feeling in a given situation without projecting my own feelings onto them.
Ultimately, it was a couple of women in our group who also knew him outside of our group who were going to tell him he could no longer come to the group. One said in the presence of myself and another woman who he had been approaching this statement, "I'm sorry to have to tell him because I know it's going to hurt him." My gut reaction was to feel hurt myself. Instantly, I pulled "the woman card." I felt in that moment that myself and the other woman's feeling were not being validated. Of course that isn't true. One thing has nothing to do with the other. We all have feelings. I may not have liked his behavior but it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability to feel hurt. I also don't view men in general with a jaded eye. Heck, women have done this concerning me too. No thanks was sufficient with them though, not my thing. But my point is I want to stay open to seeing people as individuals and I think I do. I don't feel predisposed to any negative ideas about any group of people. That's where I'm at and have been well before I every knew about Alanon.
Serenityrus said, "You can still be a bigger person as Jill was and attend a funeral and not dance on the grave in a hot red dress .. because you are the bigger person. Someday I wish to be like Jill .. lol."
Nah, not interested. I want to be the person my higher power thinks I am. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Friday 7th of February 2020 09:47:28 PM
SerenityRUS said
Feb 8, 2020
LOL ... hey you gotta do you and I'm glad that you are here .. boy oh boy .. my facebook page today started with a memory from 3 years ago where Sen Warren was told to be quiet. I watched the Ted Bundy deal on Amazon and the women who were on the police force at the time were told they shouldn't be there or be involved in that situation. It really seems that in the 70's we had more autonomy over our bodies as women vs than what we do now, which I find interesting in listening to the women speak and even some of the men speak. Ted Bundy's girlfriend went to the police on more than once and was turned away glibly by the male officers it wasn't until one of the female officers spoke to her that she was taken seriously.
There seems to be an entire culture of women should know their place and not speak up or feel they shouldn't, this is currently happening and being in recovery is what gave me my voice back because I didn't know I had one and this was a place of power for me to say NO, to say ENOUGH, to say sorry my guy that's not your place to tell me how I feel or whatever. I have noticed as well that it makes other single mother's uncomfortable that I fight my X for support .. yes .. I do because if I don't and I turn away and he has the capability to pay then I make it that much harder for the next single parent in line to get what they are legally entitled to.
I guess that's where I am at currently .. is no I won't be quiet and yes you handled that brilliantly by having a witness .. it's not like this was the first merry go round for this guy. I bet dollars to doughnuts he's heard that before from other women specifically. These kinds of messages continue to be presented in my life so I think I'm going to listen and see what's next around the corner.
Ted Bundy appeared to be a nice guy. The reality of that and who he wound up being were two totally different things. He wasn't a nice guy. He was a extraordinarily ill individual. That's the best documentary about him that I have seen to date and it gave some fantastic insight to what was happening during that time and what the attitudes were.
Thanks for the clarification.
Hugs :)
DavidG said
Feb 9, 2020
I read the same with interest. Because it was not my group I did not say anything.
If it was my group- I would have bought it up!.
I have two questions, P&P... [might not be relevant.] Did the member die a natural death.
Lat last year I had a chat with Betty- over what is a business meeting, and what is a conscience meeting.
It seems that the protocols differ a bit- in different parts of the world.
The question want to ask- is what would this group- MIP Alanon do- if there was a step 13 breach?
Thanks.
mamalioness said
Feb 23, 2020
hey Tired.......Just read your response to my ESH to you, dunno how I missed it...
re my sperm doner I am the sick/damaged one...HE was the evil..Stone evil.... He was Charles Manson, BAD!!! you know I could not find ONE soul who had anything good to say about him.... HIS motivations were just he wanted sex/gratification and did not care if he spiritually murdered his own DAUGHTER to get what HE wanted....he was not mentally ill...I could forgive someone who was bads*** crazy, but he was not..He was deliberate...if we kids did not cooperate with him, our pets would be murdered or mom would get another beating or we would....He was a malignancy to the world...I am fighting every day to give up the hate/burning resentment towards him.....and you know, evil can be very charming and engaging...sociopaths (and he was a 5 star sociopathic personality) can charm the antlers off a moose..they are glib...most are bright...they can be very funny....but its ALL to get what they want and if they hurt you??? So what!!!!
I am sooo grateful to my HP that I am a spirit of the light and not the darkness....I am so grateful that I am in recovery, i slip and i slide...sometimes I hate me when I cannot pay attention, be mindful and i lose stuff or mess stuff up, preventable mistakes out of not paying attention, still trigger me, the self saboteur is alive and well, damn itl!!!! but I just go one day at a time and my goal is to detox my life of bad people, distance myself from good, but dysfunctional people who tire me out (I have GAD and PTSD) so I do take a lot better care of me...I can cut someone loose w/out being cruel to them....i just walk away, disappear......
and ya know, just because folks are in recovery, that does not mean they are genuine and real...this is all cyberspace and anonymous and folks can put on a pretty good face, but after a while, their colors come out......
I do hope you are doing OK
I read iwth interest what Serenity said about Ted Bundy...I just watched a 4 part docu. about his former GF and her daughter came out after all these years to talk about THEIR life with TB and how he was like a cameleon, one way with them, and his other friend , former police woman and crime writer, Ann Rule...he could not harm someone who had a sort of "bond" with them, but socios IMO cannot really BOND like a non socio, they still can be cruel, abusive, etc., like the stuff he did , in bed, with his GF...AND other spooky creepy things that she kept dismissing as "male stuff" when she realized that he might be the "Ted" they were looking for, she STILL fought her instincts "oh no!! not HIM" but she did go to police and was dismissed till a female officer spoke with her and believed her....can you imagine, living with a guy, sleeping with him and hes out horribly murdering women, raping their dead bodies until the smell was too bad for him to continue (his confession) and takng their heads home to his apt. he had when away from GF and putting make up on them??? He was not sick in my opinion, he was a flaming sociopath who KNEW it was wrong, other wise WHY go to such lengths to hide it....I DO , however, believe that there was a SMALL part of him who wanted to kill the homicidal Ted because he asked his reporter friend..."hey were do they kill you for murdering people???" and his friend said "oh I don't know, most likely Florida" and where did Ted go to commit the horrific Chi Omega murders and that murder of the 12 year old??? FLA
WHY do people put a "ill" label on stone EVIL......like what I said earlier here....I was the mentally ill one who had a breakdown due to the overwhelming stress, putting up with his assaults on me and stalkign me when I was finally able to get my own flat and get out, he stalked me!!!!! why do they call devient monsters ILL when they are just plain evil and bad???? I don't get it....I can tell sick from evil...Sick is when they really don't know that what they are doing is harmful to others and LOTS of sick people get help , like I did...I was a mess when I came here....full of hate...full of resentment....closed heart....demanding i be heard and to hell with anyone else...i wanted validation, love, comfort, esh, support, et al and I had nothing to give back...I was a disaster, but I kept coming back because I KNEW that this recovery community was my ONLY hope of finding some sort of sanity , some sort of love/compassion for myself and I don't hate me half as bad as I used to...its still there when I mess up out of not paying attention, being mindful, etc., I hear his ugly voice in my head telling me I am a stupid B**tch and a stupid, Slut!!! oh yea, I was , to him, a slut because of what HE was doing to me...I had no boyfriends, he chased them all away....but I came here, finally, so many years and years after my breakdown, the only regret i have is I wish I had come here sooner because then I would have MAYBE had a chance to build a better financial picture for me and not have this horrid struggle, one client closed their business and i lost half my income....I'm still no where near replacing that lost income.....if it weren't for recovery, I would be escaping and numbing out with alcohol and binge foods and perhaps sedating drugs....I don't do that anymore...I face life head on and yea, its brutal, but I'm sober and I'm trying to learn new and healthy habits of coping with hardship and LIFE!!!!!!
sorry I hijacked your post, but the ESH you got made me think of some stuff....Oh!! to illustrate how evil my sperm doner was, he tried to tell me Hitler was the best thing to happen to Germany....I was 14 when he told me that and I looked at him and if I had any doubts about "does he have a soul" that clinched it...he had been molesting me for quite a while when this topic came up....oh yea, he thought Hitler was good for Germany...........Holy Moly!!!!!
Iamhere said
Feb 23, 2020
Trying to answer your question David - if anyone shares/reports any inappropriate behavior directly to the moderators, we will discuss and determine best course of action. There is no formal process. I do know some members have departed MIP because of receiving uncomfortable PM (Private Messages). I only know this because they shared with another member(s) vs. first hand. No action can be taken with second or third hand information and I wish they had the courage to speak up vs. departing. It is what it is.
So, I would encourage any member who has been harassed via PM to feel free to contact a moderator if you can't handle it directly. I have been on the receiving end of some unnecessary, unwarranted harassing messages in the past and chose to ignore and instead pray for the person. Everyone is different in how they receive/hear other people so ... there is that.
I am unaware of anyone '13 Stepping' - in my world, defined as having a sexual/relationship connotation. Beyond my own personal experiences, I am also directly unaware of any harassment of members by members - only heard from others. Debb did depart recently and gave a reason for her departure. She did not want intervention by a moderator and that's her right/choice.
It's always important to keep in mind that MIP is not official Al-Anon and while we try to adhere to 'it', we're not bound by it. This is also the Internet - where most are anonymous and what they share and how they share may/may not reflect who they really are. I do encourage all to be extremely cautious what's shared publicly and privately as there's no guarantees on authenticity. Trolls are alive and well all over the internet, and possibly here too!
DavidG said
Feb 23, 2020
Thanks, Iam... I am aware that this is T-T's thread. This could be a contentious topic- but you have laid out the boundaries well- and fairly. I think the thing males fear most is false accusations. And when things come to notice- it is on a case to case basis. I was the only male in my local group- for 30 years- and i felt 'at home' and comfortable. And really no different. Combined with my rural culture, and coming here to MIP... I had to guard for some time- and respect other people's personal space- because I had a strong degree of familiarity- through being in the rooms.
And that is fine- okay... part of the learning and growing process. Keeping things spiritual, in the broadest possible sense. ...
tiredtonite said
Feb 23, 2020
(((Rose)))) Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry for your pain.
(((David))) Thanks for asking a very good question and for for sharing the recovery road here at MIP.
(((Iam))) Thanks for your response concerning safety at MIP. It's very useful information for all who choose to use this site. TT
Iamhere said
Feb 23, 2020
I am sorry that your thread kind of got hijacked TT! Certainly not my intent! The good news - considering how active MIP has been since I've been around, we're blessed to not have serious issues, infighting, etc. We do seem to put principles above personalities which to me is a big reason why MIP has lasted as long as it has. (((Hugs))) to all!
tiredtonite said
Feb 23, 2020
No worries Iam. I'm grateful for your service to this board and I think you explained it well as it relates to differences between WSO face to face Alanon and this website. ((hugs)) TT
Maresie888 said
Feb 23, 2020
I worked with a guy for five years who behaved unacceptably. He would so.major flirting and unacceptable behavior around young females. No one set any limits around it and guess what he was the union steward
Back then I struggled tremendously around boundaries. Basically I did all the boundary work I should have done as a child and an adukt, an older adult at that
I think that is why many of us are in al anon. Normal people would leave if they have an alcoholic boyfriend. In my case the relationship thst brought me into al anon lasted 8 years. There were major issues in the first month. And I mean major life threatening issues .
The man who I stay with now was at one tine a huge trigger for me. He treated me with contempt. Dont get be wrong his behavior still can be really really inconsiderate. But his complete and total self absorption no long triggers despair and rage in me. There is bv a certain amount of space around it
I can definitely relate to struggling financially. I had to move out of my apartment because of a rennovation. I exhausted myself getting to move out. Then I.got sick, really really sick. Then the owner managers of the apartment tacked on another month to the move out time
It has been uphill all the way
Now I am planning cushions for myself to moving back. Time off to just deal with it .
Funds to absorb those expenses. I get reimbursed for.anporrion if those expenses but only after I move back
Now I have reordered my budget so I am not dealing with that as a hardship.
Boundaries are my base. I patrol my boundaries. I set limits on .y boundaries. I adore my boundaries
The more practice I get in setting them the better.
Practice is so phenomenal
Maresie
First I want to Say, that I'm Sorry this Person Made you feel Uncomfortable in your "Safe" Place... I know what My Meetings Mean to Me, and I'm Very Limited on where I Can Go, due to only having Limited Meetings in my Area... I'm Sure that was Hard, and I'm Sorry you Experienced that... :/
I too have Experienced No Remorse in the Passing of Someone I knew, it wasn't in my Meetings, but this person, was Just NOT a Nice Person, Hurt People on Purpose, made a Spectacle of their self All the time just for Attention, and it didn't help that they was a Raging Alcoholic/Coke Addict... And this was Before My Program... But Like you, I Still Chose to Pray for their Family... Mainly Because I Knew these People Loved them, Even if I Couldn't See Why!
I Once Told someone I wasn't Sad at all they was Gone, when they Ask Me "How I Felt" and they was In Shock I Could say such a thing about someone who past away! But they did Not Experience My Interactions with this Person, they didn't Know how Unpredictable their behavior was... So how they Viewed My Feelings really didn't Effect me Much... I Still to this Day, 2 decades Later, STILL feel the Same...
Since my Program, I Can Look at their Family Now and See How Bad their Behavior has Effected Each of them, and Now I Continue to Pray for them, Because I Can't Come to believe that person was a Good Person, but I can Pray that their HP Will show them a Better way of Life... Or So I Pray :)
Thanks for Your Honest Share... I appreciate HONESTY More Now then I Ever did before ;)
Please Take what you Like and Leave the Rest
Jozie
I believe it perfectly fine to pray for those who are suffering the loss. It helps me also in times like this to reflect on the fact that we are all imperfect in different ways. There is also no shame at all in feeling relief, safety and free from the way his spirit/actions/words affected you. If I can offer anything, it would just be, "To Thine Own Self, Be True".
I have continued to pray for you, your group, your friend who passed and will keep it up! Hang in there, but I know deep down that you got this!
It's unfortunate however that kind of behavior is not just relegated to in person meetings I have seen it on the boards as well. Specifically people pretending to be who they are not and it's very easy to hide behind a keyboard in that manner.
I am very impressed you stood up for yourself, I love the fact that another man stood up and said hey this isn't ok. I find it interesting that this kind of thing is something I have found myself going .. was that meant the way I took it, it made me feel uncomfortable and maybe I just imagined it. This is exactly how I rationalize away poor behavior by others and why it's so wonderful that someone else said .. hey .. wait a min and you recognized that this was an issue. You had your feelings of unease validated because it's important to learn to trust your gut .. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck .. I bet it's a duck.
BIG HUGS .. I am very sorry that you were put in that position, I'm so proud of you for standing up for YOU as well as others who haven't found their voice. It's so important to support people who are trying to heal from people who are either intentionally being disruptive by trolling as I call it or the other person is truly clueless about their behavior. I tend to actually believe the other people push the boundaries and do things to cause and uproar hoping that they get the "pass". Usually the perpetrator has already done this kind of behavior and is looking to continue it. I'm kind of over the pass if you can't tell .. LOL.
Good for you my friend, keep doing you!!!
S :)
I came to a disturbing understanding that it was not my job to judge him. You have done the same.
My job was to set and enforce my boundary.
He recently died. I decided to attend his ceremony. I didn't know that I would leave there comforted, but I was. It put an end to my angst.
If you continue to disapprove of or feel uncomfortable about yourself for not grieving, consider a private or even imaginary ceremony. You deserve whatever it takes to celebrate you and your growth.
All the best to you!
My brother had issues with alcohol about 7-10 years ago. Since then he has had his drinking under control. However, he had a close friend pass away about two weeks ago, and over about three days, drank himself into the hospital. I'm not sure whether or not to ride him about falling off the wagon, or just hope he can bring himself back to the good place he was in.
He's 45 years old and lives with a woman with three young boys. He's not a violent or abusive drunk, but those boys look at him as a role model.
Any input from you guys with more experience with this than me.
Thanks ((everyone))) for your understanding, encouragement and warm support. I can see that you really do understand.
Thank you ((Jozie))) for validating my feelings of fear, anger and resentment concerning his behavior. I'm sorry that you've had such an experience. It's sadder yet that the ugliness continues in the family after such a person is gone. I hope your prayers are answered and this person's family finds recovery. Yes, Alanon should be a "safe place." Of course, I think we all know that everyone comes with their own baggage. I feel I'm almost through these feelings concerning his death at this point. I'm at that place of "hating the disease, not the person." Also... I don't need to take what I liked and leave the rest because I liked everything. I'm grateful for everything everyone shares with me because it takes time to respond and you can choose to respond to posts other than mine, thank you :)
((serenityrus))) Thanks for saying you're proud of me for standing up for myself. The woman who was with me, gave up the meeting. She confronted him as well with her sponsor. I am hoping she returns now. At the time, he acted indignant and said, "I'm a nice guy!" I let know without details that I didn't believe he was and he was to stay away from me. Another woman who just died recently (another post of mine) confronted him, warned him and began waiting with me after meetings until my ride came. If I am to be honest here, when she died I remember blurting out at home in my grief why couldn't have been him instead of her. When I'd first reported it to her she wasn't entirely sure that I wasn't blow the situation out of proportion. She told me she wasn't sure if he really knew what he was doing. I almost blew a gasket. What you wrote about doing things to cause an uproar is precisely what was going on. All during our meetings, he interjected to bring the focus to him and off the sharer. The guy was relentless and also sneaky with coming on to women in the group by coming early when one was there alone and lingering after for the same reason. Yet when all was said and done, women left and others were uncomfortable with consistently distancing themselves from him and were congenial to him again despite the fact that they were uncomfortable with him behavior. We also know this is a dangerous area because people men and women come into the program looking for help and are often vulnerable. It was a unanimous vote to have him not return to our meeting place.
(((Maresie))) thanks for your support and I hope you feel better very soon. I refer to my times of feeling ill as "forced surrender." Those times sure give us time to think a bit about responding vs reacting.
(((Iam))) thank you for the prayers for myself and the group. Since we were such a small group last week, likely an announcement will be made again this week concerning this man's death. I think you make a good point concerning societal norms. It's maybe just not "nice" to not feel badly when someone loses their life. Of course if there is physical suffering and one can feel that person is now at peace. I've had more time to process my feelings and as an imperfect person with my own issues, I feel compassion for this man and where he was at in his recovery. With that said, I do believe in what is for the greater good of an Alanon group as a whole. I have not regrets about voting him out of our group and being vocal about his misdeeds directly to him as well as my group. Here's what I regret as a person who very much believe that people can change for the better. I regret that he will never have an opportunity to come back to our group with changed behaviors that would allow him to welcomed into our Alanon family again. Thanks so much for your support. I have no doubts today as to who I am and my boundaries. I am proud of how I handled the situation at the time. I in no way attacked him, name called or belittled him in any way despite the fact that I believe his behavior was mean't to impose his will on others and intimidate. I just stated my boundary clearly and my expectation that it be respected. Nothing wishy washy .. direct and had him affirm he understood and I left. So thankfully, I don't have to making amends to someone who is no longer in this world. Although it wouldn't be the first time I had to make that kind of amends; I consider this to be progress.
((((Rose))) thank you for your support. I have followed your shares and your feelings concerning your father are very understandable. He sounds like he was a very ill man. With that said, I do agree that there are people who are "bad." Their motivations are not to be trusted and I don't think it can be assigned away to mental illness. In my life, this has called for detaching with an axe. I accept the situation for what it is but keep myself out of harm's way. Thank you for responding. It's nice to have you back with us. I appreciate your insights.
Thanks (((Jill))) I'm sorry to hear you've had this experience too at an Alanon group but glad you were true to yourself and confronted the person. "My job was to set and enforce my boundary." I think that pretty much covered it for me as well. I had to be firm and clear about what my boundary was and sever all communication from him from then on because this was the kind of person who was waiting for an opening any opening. I like your idea about an imaginary ceremony. I believe I'm through the other side with this at this point but I have used similiar things in the past. I've worked through feelings when loved ones died and I couldn't be with them at the end by journalling. Writing a letter to them helped me to let go and to heal.
Thank you ((Iam))) You're very kind. TT
We do the best we can, with the tools, resources, knowledge, and more, that we have at that time. And, we learn.
That's how we grow. That's how we get better.
Your OP really struck a nerve for me because I have seen way to many times and done it myself .. the rationalization of OMG I didn't behave like a "good girl". I wasn't quiet. I made waves. I made my voice heard. I wasn't clean. I was messy. I shouldn't do those kinds of things. I was not a "good girl" in that situation.
There is NOTHING conflicting about how you responded to that situation .. the only thing conflicted and this is totally my observation and opinion was the whole "was I a good girl? Did I do something wrong?" stance of what I'm reading in your original post. I have a multitude of thoughts on this specific subject only because of I like to play pool in bars .. LOL .. I know right and I don't drink while doing it because two factors .. I am a woman and I have seen the poor behavior of some men who think that because I'm alone they have the right to act in a way that isn't ok. So I have learned a LOT of boundaries when it comes to where I play, who I play with and so on .. I love to play pool. Why should the fact I'm a woman make it harder for me to have a passion. I choose not to drink in that situation .. I choose safety first. As I have gotten older I am more appreciated for my game than my looks .. LOL. I'm ok with that.
A nice person does not behave like that .. a nice person does not prey on the vulnerable .. a nice person is what you see is what you get and whatever baggage they have going on doesn't make someone feel the need to protect themselves. That's not a judgement .. that's a fact.
People who are not playing by the same society rules are going to be very random about confrontation. They are going to make it about themselves. They are going to deflect. It sounds like that's what happened to you. A good therapist is going to tell you the same thing. They are going to say that behavior was NOT ok and you were right to take up space, use your voice, and not be minimized. You didn't scream and throw a tantrum .. you were clear about how you felt and why. Not that you even owed that explanation. I am more upset that you felt unprotected and needed to have someone with you because NO ONE should have to feel like that. Every human being should feel safe and the fact that someone has violated that trust is NOT ok.
You can still be a bigger person as Jill was and attend a funeral and not dance on the grave in a hot red dress .. because you are the bigger person. Someday I wish to be like Jill .. lol.
Oof .. I'm so sorry to go on .. however .. this is such a HOT button for me .. LOL. I could write pages about this stuff given the statistics and so on of what I do daily. I already stated this .. what you chose to do was extremely courageous, how you chose to handle it was brave because when I was in my 20's I don't handle the situations in the pool hall the same way now that I'm .. older .. LOL. It is brave when someone takes their power back. That's courage to live outside of your comfort zone and still be true to your program. That's BIG my friend. Sooo big that is growth and that is the flip side of step 1. I am powerful in myself. My sponsor and I had glorious conversations about that!!! I am powerless over nouns .. girlfriend, I am powerful within myself. Own the power .. lol .. it's a great place to come from because it's honest and true to you.
Hugs S :)
Thanks for your response ((Bo))) Yep, it's great to have recovery.
Thanks (((serenityrus))) I'm not sure my posts really explained my feelings clearly so I'm going to try to be clearer in this response. I brought someone along when I confronted this person because I wanted a witness to the boundary I was setting which was that he was to stay away from and have no communication with me whatsoever. I have really never been afraid of him just angered by his conniving behavior his manipulation. This was the kind of person who continued to do and say the kinds of things he had attempted with me with other women in my group. He would do it right under my nose which had me feeling he was sending me a message that even if he couldn't get away with these kinds of things with me, I could witness that he could get away with them with others who would nervously laugh it off. This really infuriated me. I didn't waste any time reporting him and I went up the ladder so to speak to do so.
I should mention that the culture where I live now is quite different than the one I came from. Here people in general are hesitant to confront anyone on much of any thing. My greatest disappointment is that it seems to me that another man had to call the situation out to a room full of these women before it had credibility. At that point, it seemed they gave authority to it and were willing to take action despite the fact that at least three women had reported him.
The woman who waited with me after the meetings and I are not from here. We relocated from different states, both lived in no nonsense cities where you learn to take care yourself - neither of being afraid to speak up. But I will say that before the program I would have confronted but then either quit a class, club etc. I would have just disappeared like my other meeting member did. I'm grateful I stuck with this program because it's resulted in many years of being true to myself of being a self actualized person. I take actions today because they're the right actions for myself. I don't take actions to prove I'm a "strong woman." lol It's trending you know
When you know who you are, you really don't feel a need to prove anything to anyone.
My group is going to go on and we are all going to recover from where each of us is. There is no stopping people who show up looking for a little extra action. There will be others. And.. they aren't just men. Also, I understand when you say it's a "hot button" for you. But one thing I've considered through all of this is that what may be unacceptable behavior to me just might not be to someone else. We all come with our own brand of sickness so I can't assume another's feelings about being on the receiving end of something like this. So as repulsive an experience as i found this to be, someone else might have found it to be delightful attention. My job in the program is keep recovering, to support and in sponsorship help others to identify what they themself are feeling in a given situation without projecting my own feelings onto them.
Ultimately, it was a couple of women in our group who also knew him outside of our group who were going to tell him he could no longer come to the group. One said in the presence of myself and another woman who he had been approaching this statement, "I'm sorry to have to tell him because I know it's going to hurt him." My gut reaction was to feel hurt myself. Instantly, I pulled "the woman card." I felt in that moment that myself and the other woman's feeling were not being validated. Of course that isn't true. One thing has nothing to do with the other. We all have feelings. I may not have liked his behavior but it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability to feel hurt. I also don't view men in general with a jaded eye. Heck, women have done this concerning me too. No thanks was sufficient with them though, not my thing. But my point is I want to stay open to seeing people as individuals and I think I do. I don't feel predisposed to any negative ideas about any group of people. That's where I'm at and have been well before I every knew about Alanon.
Serenityrus said, "You can still be a bigger person as Jill was and attend a funeral and not dance on the grave in a hot red dress .. because you are the bigger person. Someday I wish to be like Jill .. lol."
Nah, not interested. I want to be the person my higher power thinks I am. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Friday 7th of February 2020 09:47:28 PM
There seems to be an entire culture of women should know their place and not speak up or feel they shouldn't, this is currently happening and being in recovery is what gave me my voice back because I didn't know I had one and this was a place of power for me to say NO, to say ENOUGH, to say sorry my guy that's not your place to tell me how I feel or whatever. I have noticed as well that it makes other single mother's uncomfortable that I fight my X for support .. yes .. I do because if I don't and I turn away and he has the capability to pay then I make it that much harder for the next single parent in line to get what they are legally entitled to.
I guess that's where I am at currently .. is no I won't be quiet and yes you handled that brilliantly by having a witness .. it's not like this was the first merry go round for this guy. I bet dollars to doughnuts he's heard that before from other women specifically. These kinds of messages continue to be presented in my life so I think I'm going to listen and see what's next around the corner.
Ted Bundy appeared to be a nice guy. The reality of that and who he wound up being were two totally different things. He wasn't a nice guy. He was a extraordinarily ill individual. That's the best documentary about him that I have seen to date and it gave some fantastic insight to what was happening during that time and what the attitudes were.
Thanks for the clarification.
Hugs :)
If it was my group- I would have bought it up!.
I have two questions, P&P... [might not be relevant.] Did the member die a natural death.
Lat last year I had a chat with Betty- over what is a business meeting, and what is a conscience meeting.
It seems that the protocols differ a bit- in different parts of the world.
The question want to ask- is what would this group- MIP Alanon do- if there was a step 13 breach?
Thanks.
re my sperm doner I am the sick/damaged one...HE was the evil..Stone evil.... He was Charles Manson, BAD!!! you know I could not find ONE soul who had anything good to say about him.... HIS motivations were just he wanted sex/gratification and did not care if he spiritually murdered his own DAUGHTER to get what HE wanted....he was not mentally ill...I could forgive someone who was bads*** crazy, but he was not..He was deliberate...if we kids did not cooperate with him, our pets would be murdered or mom would get another beating or we would....He was a malignancy to the world...I am fighting every day to give up the hate/burning resentment towards him.....and you know, evil can be very charming and engaging...sociopaths (and he was a 5 star sociopathic personality) can charm the antlers off a moose..they are glib...most are bright...they can be very funny....but its ALL to get what they want and if they hurt you??? So what!!!!
I am sooo grateful to my HP that I am a spirit of the light and not the darkness....I am so grateful that I am in recovery, i slip and i slide...sometimes I hate me when I cannot pay attention, be mindful and i lose stuff or mess stuff up, preventable mistakes out of not paying attention, still trigger me, the self saboteur is alive and well, damn itl!!!! but I just go one day at a time and my goal is to detox my life of bad people, distance myself from good, but dysfunctional people who tire me out (I have GAD and PTSD) so I do take a lot better care of me...I can cut someone loose w/out being cruel to them....i just walk away, disappear......
and ya know, just because folks are in recovery, that does not mean they are genuine and real...this is all cyberspace and anonymous and folks can put on a pretty good face, but after a while, their colors come out......
I do hope you are doing OK
I read iwth interest what Serenity said about Ted Bundy...I just watched a 4 part docu. about his former GF and her daughter came out after all these years to talk about THEIR life with TB and how he was like a cameleon, one way with them, and his other friend , former police woman and crime writer, Ann Rule...he could not harm someone who had a sort of "bond" with them, but socios IMO cannot really BOND like a non socio, they still can be cruel, abusive, etc., like the stuff he did , in bed, with his GF...AND other spooky creepy things that she kept dismissing as "male stuff" when she realized that he might be the "Ted" they were looking for, she STILL fought her instincts "oh no!! not HIM" but she did go to police and was dismissed till a female officer spoke with her and believed her....can you imagine, living with a guy, sleeping with him and hes out horribly murdering women, raping their dead bodies until the smell was too bad for him to continue (his confession) and takng their heads home to his apt. he had when away from GF and putting make up on them??? He was not sick in my opinion, he was a flaming sociopath who KNEW it was wrong, other wise WHY go to such lengths to hide it....I DO , however, believe that there was a SMALL part of him who wanted to kill the homicidal Ted because he asked his reporter friend..."hey were do they kill you for murdering people???" and his friend said "oh I don't know, most likely Florida" and where did Ted go to commit the horrific Chi Omega murders and that murder of the 12 year old??? FLA
WHY do people put a "ill" label on stone EVIL......like what I said earlier here....I was the mentally ill one who had a breakdown due to the overwhelming stress, putting up with his assaults on me and stalkign me when I was finally able to get my own flat and get out, he stalked me!!!!! why do they call devient monsters ILL when they are just plain evil and bad???? I don't get it....I can tell sick from evil...Sick is when they really don't know that what they are doing is harmful to others and LOTS of sick people get help , like I did...I was a mess when I came here....full of hate...full of resentment....closed heart....demanding i be heard and to hell with anyone else...i wanted validation, love, comfort, esh, support, et al and I had nothing to give back...I was a disaster, but I kept coming back because I KNEW that this recovery community was my ONLY hope of finding some sort of sanity , some sort of love/compassion for myself and I don't hate me half as bad as I used to...its still there when I mess up out of not paying attention, being mindful, etc., I hear his ugly voice in my head telling me I am a stupid B**tch and a stupid, Slut!!! oh yea, I was , to him, a slut because of what HE was doing to me...I had no boyfriends, he chased them all away....but I came here, finally, so many years and years after my breakdown, the only regret i have is I wish I had come here sooner because then I would have MAYBE had a chance to build a better financial picture for me and not have this horrid struggle, one client closed their business and i lost half my income....I'm still no where near replacing that lost income.....if it weren't for recovery, I would be escaping and numbing out with alcohol and binge foods and perhaps sedating drugs....I don't do that anymore...I face life head on and yea, its brutal, but I'm sober and I'm trying to learn new and healthy habits of coping with hardship and LIFE!!!!!!
sorry I hijacked your post, but the ESH you got made me think of some stuff....Oh!! to illustrate how evil my sperm doner was, he tried to tell me Hitler was the best thing to happen to Germany....I was 14 when he told me that and I looked at him and if I had any doubts about "does he have a soul" that clinched it...he had been molesting me for quite a while when this topic came up....oh yea, he thought Hitler was good for Germany...........Holy Moly!!!!!
So, I would encourage any member who has been harassed via PM to feel free to contact a moderator if you can't handle it directly. I have been on the receiving end of some unnecessary, unwarranted harassing messages in the past and chose to ignore and instead pray for the person. Everyone is different in how they receive/hear other people so ... there is that.
I am unaware of anyone '13 Stepping' - in my world, defined as having a sexual/relationship connotation. Beyond my own personal experiences, I am also directly unaware of any harassment of members by members - only heard from others. Debb did depart recently and gave a reason for her departure. She did not want intervention by a moderator and that's her right/choice.
It's always important to keep in mind that MIP is not official Al-Anon and while we try to adhere to 'it', we're not bound by it. This is also the Internet - where most are anonymous and what they share and how they share may/may not reflect who they really are. I do encourage all to be extremely cautious what's shared publicly and privately as there's no guarantees on authenticity. Trolls are alive and well all over the internet, and possibly here too!
And that is fine- okay... part of the learning and growing process. Keeping things spiritual, in the broadest possible sense.
...
(((Rose)))) Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry for your pain.
(((David))) Thanks for asking a very good question and for for sharing the recovery road here at MIP.
(((Iam))) Thanks for your response concerning safety at MIP. It's very useful information for all who choose to use this site. TT