Al Anon Service Tool #6 - Cross-Talk & Loving Interchange
Debb said
Jan 22, 2020
It is a dangerous thing, this thinking that I do, but I have always wanted to know, when something impacts my life, how it is viewed and how can it work better.
And what I learned is that Al Anon does not readily address cross-talking, but does have some guidelines for similar situations that appear to be cross-talking:
(Although, these guidelines are for f2f meetings, I see promise in the adaptability to on-line forum discussions)
What then constitutes a healthy meeting, safe sharing and loving interchange? Meetings are meant to be a safe haven for recovery, a place where acceptance,
understanding and love from members with common problems can be found. One of the most helpful aspects of Al-Anon group meetings is the opportunity to
voice our dilemmas, confident that we won't be condemned for speaking frankly. We hear the solutions while listening to other people sharing. Members have
a right to express themselves, they are trying to recover by being honest about their feelings, admitting doubts and trying to handle their disappointments.
If we are able to share openly, without fear of being interrupted or judged, we feel safe, and we can grow. Consider why some groups flourish and grow, while
others, with equally dedicated members, stand still or even fall apart. Most often it depends on how well the members of the group understand and apply the
Twelve Traditions. Personal progress depends on the harmonious working together of all group members; working together requires a willingness to listen to
the ideas of others with an open mind, sharing our views with them, accepting what the group's majority has agreed on, and not insisting that our views be
accepted. Every member has a responsibility for shaping the group, creating that atmosphere of love and total safety. In doing so, we owe one another courtesy
and respect for our differences of opinion. Being open-minded means being flexible and sharing through loving interchange of ideas and opinions. Joining hands
at the end of each meeting gives a sense of reliance on each other rather than dependence on our own willpower. "I believe that keeping myself informed, becoming
familiar with Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature, studying the Al-Anon Steps, Traditions, and Concepts, using the principles of tolerance and courtesy in my
conversations and keeping an open mind will help me stay in balance and keep those I come in contact with informed about the Al-Anon Family Group's spiritual quest."
Ric P Manitoba.
hotrod said
Jan 23, 2020
Very helpful post Thanks Debb
canadianguy said
Jan 23, 2020
Thanks Debb.... I like the post and the info...
The challenge on here (as well as F2F meetings, to some extent) is that often times the people who 'cross that line' don't really know or accept that they have crossed that line....
Tom
Iamhere said
Jan 23, 2020
Thanks Deb - we have had a few different discussions local for F2F meetings on cross-talk and that's been interesting as not everyone sees it or defines it the same. I believe it is more challenging online and agree with Tom - many who cross the line either don't know they are or don't care (acceptance/ego).
Last time we tried to discuss it here, there was discussion about quoting another in a response. While this is a typical practice for most forums or discussion boards online so folks know who one is responding to, it wasn't well liked here. Some felt 'attacked', 'targeted' or singled out. The practice continues for one user, as they see it differently.
What I try to practice here (and probably miss at times) is to share my thoughts on the original post IF I have ESH. If I don't, I might send thoughts/prayers just so the person knows they've been heard. I try to use I statements vs You statements to keep me focused on my own ESH vs. advice. I might agree with another's view but do not carry a conversation on with another member or change the subject. Lastly, I find it insulting and condescending to tell a seasoned member to just go to meetings, more meetings, etc. It seems intuitive to me that one is posting here for assistance/help because there are no meetings, or it's not a meeting day/time.
I did find and still do find the stickies helpful (when I was new). Glad to see Tom here today - he's the one with the 90/10 that helped my sanity one day not too long ago!! (((Hugs)))
Aloha said
Jan 23, 2020
My experience is each group is allowed autonomy to decide if it wants to define cross-talk, and how, if necessary. My home group provides its own description in our opening, but again, that's my home group's decision and it's actually the only meeting I've ever attended where cross-talk has actually been defined by the group.
I decided to join an official Al-Anon "message board" out of curiosity to see how they conduct themselves. It's not an open forum like MIP. It posts specific topics by volunteer leaders each day and members respond to the topic at hand. I find the shares/responses there are actually much closer to what you'd experience in a face-to-face meeting than what gets expressed on MIP.
They have their own definition of cross talk that they post a link to at the beginning of each topic discussion (I've put it in blue not to place suggested emphasis on it... just to help differentiate their guidelines from my personal share.)
This group consciences requests that all present refrain from cross talk, gossip, dominance and discussions of religion, treatments centers, self help programs, counseling and the use of materials other than our AL-Anon Conference approved literature.
In a face-to face meeting cross talk occurs when a member speaks out of turn, or a member comments on, or interrupts another person's sharing.
In an electronic meeting cross talk occurs when a member directs their share directly to another member's share rather than sharing personal encouragement, strength and hope (ESH) on the daily topic. Sharing with another person within the meeting sets up a meeting within a meeting. Please remember that in Al-Anon we keep the focus on ourselves and not the alcoholic.If you wish to share with another person off topic it should be done one on one through a personal email.
I really liked their description of cross-talk becoming a "meeting within a meeting".
Debb said
Jan 23, 2020
Aloha, I really like, a lot, this description of cross talk within electronic meetings! Is there away that it can be presented to us all as a guidance?
DavidG said
Jan 23, 2020
Hmmm... some of our shares here- are the older style sort of share- where the members asks for input- and everyone [who wants to] pitches in.
"-take what you like and leave the rest". Would not want to lose these completely.
Personally I try to stick to opinions [only if asked] and not advice.
However we do not want to be standing on each other's feet. I tend to see each person who starts a thread- as a mini-chair... and I always follow suit-
leaving that person to sum up if needed.
In an online group- greeting, sharing and coffee time are all rolled into one sometimes. It takes tact.
I think there has to be room for chit-chat from time to time... but that is definitely not what the group is all about...
Debb said
Jan 23, 2020
I see your point David!
I was thinking when we are answering a member post, who is asking for ESH and not a post up for discussion about Al Anon topics that is opened for direct input.
When someone is asking for help, cross talk between members, who are in disagreement about ESH shared seems to be disheartening to the person who is asking for help.
DavidG said
Jan 23, 2020
yes Debb... that second point is a biggie. I would refer people to a WSO group list- if they asked for one.
But i regard this group as my home group- and like nothing else than to see people share here!
I guess we are made up of regulars, welcome visitors, and newcomers.
Good to see the inventory as a clearing house house for all these ideas. On someone's thread is not a good place!
Debb said
Jan 23, 2020
Also, as a suggestion, if someone wants to challenge another's ESH, rather than take the attention off of the person that is being helped, all that need be done is to click on the person's name and send them a personal message.
Iamhere said
Jan 23, 2020
I can't think of a reason anyone would challenge ESH....a share full of advice, directives, orders, etc. - maybe! And, yes - I 100% agree that should be taken to PM. While any member can propose any set of guidelines for the group, the bigger challenge is enforcement. I tend to read all posts as a moderator but not for intent, more for offensive content. I have no desire to try and moderate each post to ensure it aligns with what's suggested.
I would also like to share that posts have decreased over time, for a variety of reasons. With fear and safety being the top concerns because of responses, will this help others feel safer or discourage freedom of shares? I don't have those answers - just thinking out loud. I miss the days when we had tons of members, freely expressing their ESH, without any concern for unsolicited advice/judgement. Just something else to consider.
For the record, my experience in trying to resolve issues with PM did not 'go well'. In two instances, my message was met with contempt, defiance and hostility. I did stop sharing for a bit, beyond the daily as I felt unsafe. No changes in posting happened. I have learned in recovery that while many talk the talk, not all walk the walk. At times, the 'talk to each other, reason things out' isn't embraced by all.
I have no doubt that we all have good ideas and the best interest of MIP in our hearts. As I said before, I will certainly do my best to embrace any changes the group conscience agrees upon!
Debb said
Jan 23, 2020
Iamhere, how do you find out what the group wants? You just wait for posts or do you do a mass PM?
Iamhere said
Jan 23, 2020
There's no formal process to solicit group feedback. One thing to remember always - some folks come daily, some weekly, some whenever they want. In other words, if you truly want broad input, you've got to allow time for others to weigh in.
There is probably a systematic way to send a notification out to all members, it will probably only reach those who've opted in for notifications.
serenity47 said
Jan 24, 2020
I want others to take what they like and leave the rest. That's what I want.
I have not posted for a long while, not because I feel unsafe, but because face to face has taken precedence. However, I do come time to time to read.
This board was a godsend when I first arrived. Members willingly offered up their ESH. Some of it I could relate to some I couldn't at the time . As I have grown in my own recovery, some of the ESH I received makes more sense now and I can relate. In the beginning, some of it seemed a bit harsh, to direct, etc , looking back it wasn't; I simply wasn't ready to hear the message at that time.
There will always be differences in style, communication , etc, and that is enhanced via online.
I will be forever grateful for all of the good that has come from this board and simply disengage from any negative that does not serve me.
-- Edited by serenity47 on Friday 24th of January 2020 11:03:36 AM
SunnyFrogs said
Jan 24, 2020
I like that ^^,for everyone to take what they like and leave the rest.
And maybe we all just need to start acting like the adults we are and not challenge,not argue, etc?
Maybe we need to practice what I've read about often here, not reacting to others.
Easier said than done,I know, but surely if we can learn how to deal with the qualifiers in our lives we can put all that we learn into practice here too,right?
I,for one,am going to try my best to just take what I like and leave the rest from now on instead of reacting.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jan 25, 2020
I really love this site! I come here every day... I don't always post, but I always read. The Daily has been my Go-To.
As I have moved along in my healing journey, I found my local F2F meetings too constrictive. I still attend, just not at the level I used to. I understand the need for "No Cross-talk," but over time, meetings were beginning to bring me down, as they seemed very circular... no growth.
I love the free dialog that comes with this forum! I love the flexibility this forum provides... I can "check-in" whenever I want! I seriously don't think there has been a time when I have not learned something from some other member! I happen to love quoting something posted from a member that has touched me deeply. I find it is a way to validate their share. To let them know that what they shared mattered to me.
I agree wholeheartedly with serenity47 - I embrace the notion of "Take what you like and leave the rest!"
It helped me when I was new here and either:
1) I wasn't ready for the directness of some responses or 2) balked at being told that all I needed was to allow God into my life to handle the hard stuff. 3) or discouraged from service b/c I did not own conference approved material in which to share.
Now that I am a bit healthier, I can see that all the shares were important. They all helped me to grow in some manner... some by forcing me to take a hard look at myself!!
I came here specifically b/c it was "non-conference." I continue here not only b/c of that reason, but also b/c by loosely following Al-Anon Guidelines, it tries very hard to be a safe venue while allowing respectful freedom of expression. I think John had the right idea when he developed this site.
As usual, Take what you like and leave the rest.
&
hotrod said
Jan 25, 2020
I agree we can all Take what we like and leave the rest. our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern
It is a dangerous thing, this thinking that I do, but I have always wanted to know, when something impacts my life, how it is viewed and how can it work better.
So I did some research (lest you should be surprised!) on: http://www.alanon.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Service-Tool-6-Crosstalk-Loving-Interchange-1.pdf
And what I learned is that Al Anon does not readily address cross-talking, but does have some guidelines for similar situations that appear to be cross-talking:
(Although, these guidelines are for f2f meetings, I see promise in the adaptability to on-line forum discussions)
What then constitutes a healthy meeting, safe sharing and loving interchange? Meetings are meant to be a safe haven for recovery, a place where acceptance,
understanding and love from members with common problems can be found. One of the most helpful aspects of Al-Anon group meetings is the opportunity to
voice our dilemmas, confident that we won't be condemned for speaking frankly. We hear the solutions while listening to other people sharing. Members have
a right to express themselves, they are trying to recover by being honest about their feelings, admitting doubts and trying to handle their disappointments.
If we are able to share openly, without fear of being interrupted or judged, we feel safe, and we can grow. Consider why some groups flourish and grow, while
others, with equally dedicated members, stand still or even fall apart. Most often it depends on how well the members of the group understand and apply the
Twelve Traditions. Personal progress depends on the harmonious working together of all group members; working together requires a willingness to listen to
the ideas of others with an open mind, sharing our views with them, accepting what the group's majority has agreed on, and not insisting that our views be
accepted. Every member has a responsibility for shaping the group, creating that atmosphere of love and total safety. In doing so, we owe one another courtesy
and respect for our differences of opinion. Being open-minded means being flexible and sharing through loving interchange of ideas and opinions. Joining hands
at the end of each meeting gives a sense of reliance on each other rather than dependence on our own willpower. "I believe that keeping myself informed, becoming
familiar with Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature, studying the Al-Anon Steps, Traditions, and Concepts, using the principles of tolerance and courtesy in my
conversations and keeping an open mind will help me stay in balance and keep those I come in contact with informed about the Al-Anon Family Group's spiritual quest."
Ric P Manitoba.
Thanks Debb.... I like the post and the info...
The challenge on here (as well as F2F meetings, to some extent) is that often times the people who 'cross that line' don't really know or accept that they have crossed that line....
Tom
Last time we tried to discuss it here, there was discussion about quoting another in a response. While this is a typical practice for most forums or discussion boards online so folks know who one is responding to, it wasn't well liked here. Some felt 'attacked', 'targeted' or singled out. The practice continues for one user, as they see it differently.
What I try to practice here (and probably miss at times) is to share my thoughts on the original post IF I have ESH. If I don't, I might send thoughts/prayers just so the person knows they've been heard. I try to use I statements vs You statements to keep me focused on my own ESH vs. advice. I might agree with another's view but do not carry a conversation on with another member or change the subject. Lastly, I find it insulting and condescending to tell a seasoned member to just go to meetings, more meetings, etc. It seems intuitive to me that one is posting here for assistance/help because there are no meetings, or it's not a meeting day/time.
I did find and still do find the stickies helpful (when I was new). Glad to see Tom here today - he's the one with the 90/10 that helped my sanity one day not too long ago!! (((Hugs)))
My experience is each group is allowed autonomy to decide if it wants to define cross-talk, and how, if necessary. My home group provides its own description in our opening, but again, that's my home group's decision and it's actually the only meeting I've ever attended where cross-talk has actually been defined by the group.
I decided to join an official Al-Anon "message board" out of curiosity to see how they conduct themselves. It's not an open forum like MIP. It posts specific topics by volunteer leaders each day and members respond to the topic at hand. I find the shares/responses there are actually much closer to what you'd experience in a face-to-face meeting than what gets expressed on MIP.
They have their own definition of cross talk that they post a link to at the beginning of each topic discussion (I've put it in blue not to place suggested emphasis on it... just to help differentiate their guidelines from my personal share.)
This group consciences requests that all present refrain from cross talk, gossip, dominance and discussions of religion, treatments centers, self help programs, counseling and the use of materials other than our AL-Anon Conference approved literature.
In a face-to face meeting cross talk occurs when a member speaks out of turn, or a member comments on, or interrupts another person's sharing.
In an electronic meeting cross talk occurs when a member directs their share directly to another member's share rather than sharing personal encouragement, strength and hope (ESH) on the daily topic. Sharing with another person within the meeting sets up a meeting within a meeting. Please remember that in Al-Anon we keep the focus on ourselves and not the alcoholic.If you wish to share with another person off topic it should be done one on one through a personal email.
I really liked their description of cross-talk becoming a "meeting within a meeting".
Hmmm... some of our shares here- are the older style sort of share- where the members asks for input- and everyone [who wants to] pitches in.
"-take what you like and leave the rest". Would not want to lose these completely.
Personally I try to stick to opinions [only if asked] and not advice.
However we do not want to be standing on each other's feet. I tend to see each person who starts a thread- as a mini-chair... and I always follow suit-
leaving that person to sum up if needed.
In an online group- greeting, sharing and coffee time are all rolled into one sometimes. It takes tact.
I think there has to be room for chit-chat from time to time... but that is definitely not what the group is all about...
I was thinking when we are answering a member post, who is asking for ESH and not a post up for discussion about Al Anon topics that is opened for direct input.
When someone is asking for help, cross talk between members, who are in disagreement about ESH shared seems to be disheartening to the person who is asking for help.
yes Debb... that second point is a biggie. I would refer people to a WSO group list- if they asked for one.
But i regard this group as my home group- and like nothing else than to see people share here!
I guess we are made up of regulars, welcome visitors, and newcomers.
Good to see the inventory as a clearing house house for all these ideas. On someone's thread is not a good place!
I would also like to share that posts have decreased over time, for a variety of reasons. With fear and safety being the top concerns because of responses, will this help others feel safer or discourage freedom of shares? I don't have those answers - just thinking out loud. I miss the days when we had tons of members, freely expressing their ESH, without any concern for unsolicited advice/judgement. Just something else to consider.
For the record, my experience in trying to resolve issues with PM did not 'go well'. In two instances, my message was met with contempt, defiance and hostility. I did stop sharing for a bit, beyond the daily as I felt unsafe. No changes in posting happened. I have learned in recovery that while many talk the talk, not all walk the walk. At times, the 'talk to each other, reason things out' isn't embraced by all.
I have no doubt that we all have good ideas and the best interest of MIP in our hearts. As I said before, I will certainly do my best to embrace any changes the group conscience agrees upon!
There is probably a systematic way to send a notification out to all members, it will probably only reach those who've opted in for notifications.
I want others to take what they like and leave the rest. That's what I want.
I have not posted for a long while, not because I feel unsafe, but because face to face has taken precedence. However, I do come time to time to read.
This board was a godsend when I first arrived. Members willingly offered up their ESH. Some of it I could relate to some I couldn't at the time . As I have grown in my own recovery, some of the ESH I received makes more sense now and I can relate. In the beginning, some of it seemed a bit harsh, to direct, etc , looking back it wasn't; I simply wasn't ready to hear the message at that time.
There will always be differences in style, communication , etc, and that is enhanced via online.
I will be forever grateful for all of the good that has come from this board and simply disengage from any negative that does not serve me.
-- Edited by serenity47 on Friday 24th of January 2020 11:03:36 AM
And maybe we all just need to start acting like the adults we are and not challenge,not argue, etc?
Maybe we need to practice what I've read about often here, not reacting to others.
Easier said than done,I know, but surely if we can learn how to deal with the qualifiers in our lives we can put all that we learn into practice here too,right?
I,for one,am going to try my best to just take what I like and leave the rest from now on instead of reacting.
I really love this site! I come here every day... I don't always post, but I always read. The Daily has been my Go-To.
As I have moved along in my healing journey, I found my local F2F meetings too constrictive. I still attend, just not at the level I used to. I understand the need for "No Cross-talk," but over time, meetings were beginning to bring me down, as they seemed very circular... no growth.
I love the free dialog that comes with this forum! I love the flexibility this forum provides... I can "check-in" whenever I want! I seriously don't think there has been a time when I have not learned something from some other member! I happen to love quoting something posted from a member that has touched me deeply. I find it is a way to validate their share. To let them know that what they shared mattered to me.
I agree wholeheartedly with serenity47 - I embrace the notion of "Take what you like and leave the rest!"
It helped me when I was new here and either:
1) I wasn't ready for the directness of some responses or
2) balked at being told that all I needed was to allow God into my life to handle the hard stuff.
3) or discouraged from service b/c I did not own conference approved material in which to share.
Now that I am a bit healthier, I can see that all the shares were important. They all helped me to grow in some manner... some by forcing me to take a hard look at myself!!
I came here specifically b/c it was "non-conference." I continue here not only b/c of that reason, but also b/c by loosely following Al-Anon Guidelines, it tries very hard to be a safe venue while allowing respectful freedom of expression. I think John had the right idea when he developed this site.
As usual, Take what you like and leave the rest.