My wife and I have had drinks on a fairly regular basis over the many years of our marriage. On occasion one or both of us would drink too much, but that was pretty rare.
Earlier this year she completed a weight loss/dieting plan which resulted in getting to nearly the weight she was when we were married, and really has been on a confidence high as a result. It was inspiring. One of the rules of the plan was that she not drink ay alcohol, and she abstained for about 7-8 months straight. Once she went into maintenance mode for her plan, she allowed herself to have wine on occasion, then eventually began to drink the same amount as before.
A couple of weeks after this, I realized that she was drinking a lot more than I realized. After drinking a bottle of wine earlier in the day, she would go to the store and consume another bottle on her own (apparently drinking it in the car somewhere and disposing of the bottle before coming home), then after she vomited would say that it must be from the wine bottle she had earlier in the day. I've come across hidden stashes in the house, sometimes with multiple wine bottles, cans of different spiked waters, etc. I noticed a pattern where she tends to hide alcohol purchases when she gets groceries (I used to see this through the grocery website where it posts copies of the receipts, until she changed the login).
After I noticed the first stash, and was able to calculate that she was drinking 1-2 bottles/day, I thought that if I loved her I should at least express my awareness and concern to her. I basically just said, without any details, that she'd been drinking a lot recently, and I was concerned about her health if it continued, and if she needed anything I was there. She didn't talk to me for about half a day or so, then eventually thawed out and we continued like it never happened.
I noticed within a few days she was continuing to consume the same amount, but working harder to hide it. It's been about 3 months or so now, and I've noticed she's getting more into whisky and bourbon. She lies sometimes to me about where she's been (recently said a meeting went late, but I verified from someone else there it ended over 2 hrs before she actually arrived home, with slurred speech and clearly having drunk, despite the cover up she used on her face to hide her red cheeks and the gum she chewed). I can see at times she seems to go through some internal struggles where she will try to get liquor out of the house by giving it to someone else (which I confirmed), then other times try to hide alcohol in places in our home.
She's a homeschool stay-at-home mom, and I wonder some times if the kids are getting very regular schooling, although they are all happy and healthy kids. The house often looks exactly the same when I get back from work as when I left.
I'm not really sure at this point what I should do, aside from minimally making sure our kids stay safe and making sure it doesn't impact our finances too drastically. So far she seems to have avoided driving with them in the car when she's been drinking. I know I can personally do nothing to stop her from drinking in all likelihood. I'm not even sure if I should talk to her about it to make her aware that I know the drinking has continued, because I don't think it would help her or our relationship either way. I'm 100% committed to staying with her regardless of whether she continues to drink, or even if it gets much worse. I have read a little about not being an enabler, and I try not to go out of my way to cover duties that lie more in her responsibility, just because she is using that time to use the computer and drink. I believe I am the only one among friends and family who is aware of the direction she's heading in. My family doesn't have much of a history of alcohol abuse, but her family has a history of it.
Any direction or advice you can give me is really appreciated. This is a strange, troubling new thing going on with the woman I love, and I want to make sure I'm doing what I can for her, while acknowledging I can do nothing to stop her or even positively influence her drinking. In a way I want something to happen as a result of her drinking (not tragic, hopefully) which will be a wake up call to her. She is not the type to reach out for help, and I think she would almost die before she would do that.
Feeling lost.
DavidG said
Dec 9, 2019
Hello Jack- ah guess that these are the classic signs and symptoms. ...
Changing one four-letter word- -lost- for another... ~help~.
I am a long timer, here, with this group, and my time zone places me on your path.
There are many people here- much closer to the action- who will respond during their Tuesday.
I admire your courage. Kids involved- yep... ...good thoughts. Keep coming back. Take care... ...
-DavidG.
Fedora said
Dec 9, 2019
Dear Jack1,
Hello and welcome. I don't have much wisdom to share (I am deep in my own recovery challenges with an AH and two young kids) but I just wanted to give a word of sort-of-encouragement. For all the things I don't know, I DO know that you are in the right place (online), and hopefully will find a right place in person (Face to Face meetings). I fear for you that things could get a lot worse (I'm living that right now; my AH is passed out while I type) and having a support system will be really helpful. There are incredibly wise people here (the above poster being one of them) who have saved my sanity more days than I can count.
I do know that eventually your spouse will slip and drive with the kids in the car. This was my experience. I had tried to "make everything good" for him so that any stress would be alleviated and thus he might hopefully do the right thing. (If you look up the word "enabler", my photo should be in the dictionary right next to it.) I thought I was being a supportive spouse. I did not understand that his drinking was going to take precedence over everything, even our children's safety. Turns out that the first thing that alcohol does is mess with your ability to think clearly, and that includes thinking about what is safe even when your own child is next to you. I was lucky in that my AH did not have an accident with the kids in the car (although that was only because other people are better drivers than he is when he is drunk) but then I got the memo that my luck might not hold out. I try not to make it so that he is the one who has to drive them places.
I'll just share what people here have shared with me. Be good and kind to yourself. You cannot control your spouse. It is also not your fault.
Hang in there.
-Fedora
Aloha said
Dec 10, 2019
Welcome, Jack. Glad you're here.
It sounds like you've already got some realistic viewpoints on things - knowing that telling her to quit isn't going to help matters, etc. You're right that if she wants to stop it's all on her.
Alcoholism is a progressive disease and unfortunately you'll see more of the same behaviors growing in extremes as it takes over.
What's important for you is that you have a problem with your wife's drinking, and that's where getting to face-to-face Al-Anon meetings will prove helpful for you and your family. This disease brings out crazy behaviors in ourselves, too - checking up on the alcoholic, monitoring how much they drink, keeping track of where they've been and for how long, etc. Trying to find the right thing to say and the right way to say it so that hopefully they'll finally understand the danger they're in... It makes us sick, sick, sick, as well. Right now these behaviors may seem reasonable but eventually they start to rule your life and that's no way to live - I know.
If I have any advice for you is to find at least six meetings near you and get to them all as soon as possible. You'll find different meetings have different "vibes" to them, and you'll feel more comfortable and at home in some than others. Start attending meetings regularly. If you can, pick up some literature. Be sure to ask for a newcomer's packet if it isn't at first offered to you. Read the literature. If Al-Anon feels like a good fit for you, find yourself a sponsor and start working the steps.
I hope you find this helpful. Sending prayers for you and your family.
Iamhere said
Dec 10, 2019
I too welcome you to MIP Jack. Glad that you found us and glad that you shared and very sorry for what brings you here. As suggested above, alcoholism is a disease that's powerful, progressive and baffling. There is hope and help for an alcoholic in recovery if/when they want it, and there is Al-Anon for friends and family of those with the disease! Anyone is welcome to attend Al-Anon whether their person is or is not in recovery.
We don't give advice, instead, we offer ESH (Experience, Strength & Hope) to others. Al-Anon gave me a safe place to 'dump' my worries, concerns, anger, etc. and others shared their stories without judging or advising. It was refreshing to be among others who truly understood what I was facing, what I felt, etc.
Alcoholism is considered a family disease as it does seem to reach beyond the drinker to others who love them or live with them. My own recovery journey started with find and attending meetings with an open mind. It was suggested to me that I look for the similarities vs. the differences and that I keep trying different meetings until I found one that felt like a good fit for me.
I do know that I am a stubborn person, reasonably intelligent and experienced with this disease....so - I really tried to battle it and fix others with it for a long while before I surrendered. It felt necessary at the time to keep fighting everything and everyone, until it consumed me. I slowly came to accept that no amount of begging, talking, pleading, screaming, threatening, encouraging, etc. would change another person with this disease.
I hope you keep coming back - there is always hope and help in recovery. You are not alone - I too am sending prayers to you and yours!
Bo said
Dec 10, 2019
Welcome. The difficult situation you are in is very common. An overwhelming percentage of people in alanon have faced the very same thing. However, you are trying to apply logic to a very illogical person and problem. Your wife is an alcoholic. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad and sad news. However, when one is an alcoholic -- all bets are off. Logic doesn't apply. Neither does intellect. Nothing you do will matter... because...the alcoholic will not stop drinking UNLESS and UNTIL they want to. Period. Her behavior and her actions have made it clear that -- just for today -- she has no intentions of quitting drinking.
Many people here in this forum -- and please keep in mind, this is not a conference approved, official, alanon forum -- will tell you "We don't give advice" and will stand on the formal ceremony of a statement that is very much taken out of context. That said, I have advice for you, as follows:
1) Go to face to face alanon meetings -- as many as you can, and as often as you can.
2) Find a sponsor. You can get a brochure on sponsorship when you attend the face to face meeting and the people there will talk to you about it when you ask them.
3) Start doing the work -- make changes, in your thinking, your behavior, your actions and reactions. Talk to your sponsor, start working the program with him.
If you begin to focus on you, you can and will get better. All the best.
Temple said
Dec 10, 2019
Welcome, Jack.
I'm so sorry you are in that terrible place.
I don't know why I'm telling you this--when I first came to Alanon and heard the "you can't make them" mantra I felt as if I'd really done something wrong.
I was married many, many moons ago. And he was an atypical drinker (alcoholic) and I had no experience and there wasn't that much information out there. It took until our child was almost 13 years old, and the drinking had gotten to be daily (suggestion by boss's boss: When you move, take your old refrigerator and put it in the garage to hold your booze.) and the child and I both realized at the same time--she'd been keeping track of how much liquor was in the bottles. And he was slurring and responded to me disrespectfully on a Saturday morning.
I knew less than nothing, except that (I am positive this happened, but when I bought a later edition it wasn't in there) that Eric Berne, in Games People Play, said, "Alcoholic is a three-handed game, played by husband, wife and bartender, and it can't be won." So I knew what I had to do--didn't know how we'd survive, but I knew we had to leave, the child and I.
So that day I left him passed out on the bathroom floor--I never had covered his tracks, or even covered his body when he passed out twice--thought he was being stupid--I'd suggested if he spaced drinks out more, he wouldn't get drunk. And the next morning, hoping he had a really bad headache, I said to him in a neutral, calm voice--this was the first time I had addressed the actual problem--"I need to know if you are going to continue to drink, because I have to plan my life."
That is all I ever said. And he quit, cold turkey. It must have gotten his attention and he didn't want to lose his family. And I think he knew I'd do it--I was very clear. And he can do that--quit cigarettes the same way.
He's never recovered, but he did lose the desire to drink. Years later, before that had come to pass, he had a flirtation with Listerine, which is high enough proof that it needn't be ingested to get the effect. And I got my Shrink to help coerce him into taking the test. He got caught on the "Have you evers" and to get him into AA. He didn't last long, but did come out of denial. I went to Al-Anon at the same time, and as I said, felt that I'd done something wrong--he and I both thought he quit because of what I said.
As an aside, I think it is harder for women to overcome alcoholism, because their bodies tend to be smaller and have a higher concentration of water. Also, if they are at home most of the time they aren't as exposed.
I wish I had found Alanon earlier and had had more options for meetings. I was so sick when around cigarette smoke, and there were very few smoke-free meetings then. I also wish I hadn't lived in a place where cross-talk seemed to be mandatory, and every now and then an AA hadn't decided to come along and straighten us all out. My theory is that the average A has a stronger ego than a typical Al-Anon, who is no match,
I think, however that Alanon is a God-send. I remember the first time I called the Al-Anon number, in despair--it was 10 years after he'd quit and I found five beers rolled up in newsprint, in a drawer in the workshop. I was told where there was a no-smoking meeting after the weekend, and to remember two things--it wasn't my fault, and things would get better. I repeated that over and over to myself because I was in a panic. It didn't even register that he'd had one out of six. And that was the case.
We know the feelings of despair, the helplessness, the sheer horror of having a family member taken over by something unfamiliar. I was in a state of ignorance and obviously denial for a long time--I'd never been around a person who drank, even occasionally, and he could drive in a blackout better than I could sober. And for the first 12 years, he only drank occasionally. So I didn't go through a prolonged nightmare, which is much more typical.
My heart goes out to you and your family. There is help here and in meetings.
Blessings,
Temple
Fedora said
Dec 10, 2019
(Temple: I just had to jump in and say that your observation "the average A has a stronger ego than a typical Al-anon, who is no match" super interesting. I had never thought of that before. Thanks for the share. I am going to be chewing on this for awhile.)
Seahorse7 said
Dec 11, 2019
Hello Jack, I dont have any wisdom to share because Im currently in the same lost place you are. I just wanted you to know youre not alone, and also to say that your post made me feel slightly less alone too. And all the other responses on here are simultaneously a wake up call, and comforting. Hugs to you.
PosiesandPuppies said
Dec 11, 2019
Sending you support, Jack - you are certainly in the thick of it.
Things that helped me:
!. Reading all the scientific literature on Addiction. What you don't know, can keep you in denial.
2. Al-Anon meetings.
3. Don't ever allow yourself to believe that she won't drive drunk with the kids in the car.
4. Investigate what living with an addicted parent can do to the kids... (many things don't surface until they are adults!)...once I fully understood that, I was ready & fully motivated to change!
Jill said
Dec 11, 2019
Jack, welcome. (I like to say hi Jack, I'm Jill)
I'm not sure how old your children are. If any is old enough to drive, that would be good.
Because you said she drives while or after drinking, I know her reflexes and judgement is impaired. Anyone in her vehicle and anyone else on the road she takes is in danger. In that situation, she's a very bad driver. Think about not subjecting your children to this danger.
Is there alternate transportation available?
Bo said
Dec 11, 2019
Jack, in re-reading your post, and some of the others, what resonates with me is that our thinking, our behavior, our actions and reactions...are OUR CHOICE. No one puts a gun to our head and forces us to do anything. In the end, we choose, we control, we decide, and so on for and about US. Period. While it is not my motivation, nor intention, to speak to any person's specific post -- other than the OP, in the context of sharing, in alanon -- I think the forum leads people to a non-alanon perspective. Each person's program is their own. Each person's recovery is their own. However, the program does have certain principles, guidelies, slogans, toos, etc.
Another point that resonates with me is that alanon, the steps, the slogans, the principles of the alanon program, everything about the alanon program...is about US. It is about what WE need to do to get better, to get healthy. It is about what WE choose and learn to have as our thinking, our mindset, our way of being. It is about OUR actions, reactions, etc. The alanon program is about US focusing on US, OUR tools, OUR recovery. This may just be a phrase you hear in the opening of face to face meetings, however, here, in this forum, I think that entire concept is not just dismissed, but neglected and forgotten. Now, this may seem sophomoric and rather simplistic -- however, being that this is not an approved or official alanon forum -- we don't focus on approved literature, guidelines, structure, etc. I feel that's important, because when someone comes here in crisis, looking for help, wanting insight, etc. -- from what perspective? Anyone? Any perspective? Sure, that's what we have here in this forum. Any and all. But that's not what you have in an alanon meeting. I think what gets collapsed into this dynamic is the analysis of the alcoholic, why they do this, why they do that, etc. In alanon we are taught to keep the focus on ourselves. There are reasons behind that. We focus on US, our recovery. That said, in face to face alanon meetings I attend in NY and NJ, one of the things I hear in the opening of the meetings are "if you are a member of another 12-step program or fellowship, we ask you to keep that confidential, and to limit your focus to the alanon program and alanon perspective" and more along those lines. So, my point is that, for me, I want to focus on the alanon perspective -- a member of alanon talking to me, speaking to me, giving me insight, perspective, on, let's say detachment, or enabling. I don't want the AA perspective. Now, that's just me.
Be that as it may -- each and every person contributes, in whatever way they can, want, etc. We say take what you like and leave the rest. When I look to my recovery, my work, it's alanon. That's where I go -- to alanon meetings. That's why I come here -- knowing that this is not a conference approved, official, alanon forum. However, for me, focusing on the alcoholic/addict, what they do, why they do, why they don't see this, say that, and all of that...that, right there, is my problem. That, right there, is my sickness. That's what I need to be clean and sober from. That's my drug that I need to get off. That's my drinking that I need to quit. That's the alanon perspective! While it's been said that while the steps of AA and alanon are exactly the same EXCEPT for ONE WORD...the mindset, the orientation, the philosophy, of the two, are very, very different.
So, what does that mean here? For me, it's about...surprise...ACCEPTANCE. Once you have acceptance, you now have the ability to no longer focus on the alcoholic. Once I did that. I got better. I got healthy.
Temple said
Dec 11, 2019
PNP--I really liked your 4th point. I think that needs to be said.
Bo--you are amazing, and brave, and generous. Bless you for being here even though some of us could just drive you nuts. At least I'm pretty sure I could. I get something out of every post of yours. Yes--when I am no longer reactive, I will have achieved a great victory. You are so right. I hope you stay around and keep saying that.
Love to everybody. I love how we are mostly at different stages and everyone is treated so very well. Those with much recovery haven't just gone off into the sunset, but are here helping those of us who are less enlightened.
Bless us all
Temple
Jack1 said
Dec 11, 2019
Thank you, all, for your thoughts. Feeling lost, I looked online for a place where I thought others would relate and, with their experience, give me their thoughts that I could digest. Honestly, I haven't thought so much about this being a condition of myself that needed fixing so much as it was a condition of my wife that needed fixing, and yet the very fact I sought you folks out is evidence that I need some healing myself, and some self-focus rather than near obsession with the state of my loved one. I have lost so much sleep worrying about this, and I need to step back and regain myself for the strength of our family. I have been trying to focus on resting in God, and keeping the focus on him and doing his will in little ways, one day at a time, moving what I am able to move, bringing light where I can.
Temple: I would not be surprised if your thoughts on the alcoholic ego are essentially true. I think ego sometimes leads one initially into alcoholism, and then disease makes them stay. You seem like a brave person.
Seahorse: My heart goes out to you. It is so hard to keep on keeping on.
The secondary effects of lying and dishonesty by the A to the SO are what are in part, I think, so devastating to a relationship. Personally, I feel like the lying has become a wedge between us in that it marks off an elephant in the room that we don't discuss, and which betrays marital trust. It also makes me feel like I'm the only adult in the house, and that makes me feel lonelier.
I have a lot to learn, thanks for the references to resources. I will use it. I've read more about alcoholism in the past few weeks than in my life.
My children are young, all younger than 9. My wife will go out for "errands", or to a meeting with adult leaders in a local organization, and that's when the drinking and driving seem to be taking place. Otherwise, if she has the kids on a morning errand, she picks up alcohol and then camps out at home with them for the next few hours. So far I haven't identified a situation when she's been DUI with them in the car, but all of your warnings are well-taken.
Earlier this week, I took her to the hospital due to sudden elevated blood pressure and heart rate. It was a wake-up call to her, it seemed; I haven't noticed that she's been drinking since then. She seemed genuinely scared, and although neither of us discussed it there's no way she could not see the cardiac episode as unrelated to her elevated drinking. She seems more organized and on top of things since then. Of course I hope that it's a watershed moment for her, but I am braced for the next time...I am resolved to simply love her but let go of my anxiety as best I can when and if it returns, to protect our family as best I can, and to play the role in this world that I am meant to.
DavidG said
Dec 11, 2019
My friend- I sometimes feel like the janitor- at a street corner cafe- putting chairs on tables- and bidding nigh- night to the last customer... mainly because I live far and away from the USA; and my time zone places me here...
... in Alanon we run through "the steps". And you already have run through steps 2 and three- with mention of your uncomplicated faith. Something I share- and which can be a great friend and ally.
Early days- and ~baby steps~. A drinker, at this stage may try to stop, or to control their drinking... and it is sort of a natural test- a reality check. Along with faith- I take breathing and relaxation... ...and shift the focus to myself- which you are doing too.
You have my utmost respect. ...
Bo said
Dec 11, 2019
Jack, keep the focus on you and your kids. Try to detach and not be focused on your wife. Try to have and embrace acceptance and know that there is nothing you can do about her drinking, getting her to stop/quit, etc. Also, when looking at the lying, the deceit, and dishonesty, yes, acceptance is key -- but so is separating the disease and the person. Dogs bark, infants cry, and alcoholics drink. Cats purr, drivers in traffic honk their horns, and alcoholics lie. Milk in time spoils, light bulbs burn out, and alcoholics are dishonest. In other words, they do what they do. It is the disease...not the person. That doesn't mean you have to accept it, but it also doesn't mean you have to argue, try and catch her in the lie, prove that she's lying, she's wrong, and so on. Go to face to face alanon meetings and learn what you can do so that you get better, so that you get healthy!!!
You can love the person, and hate the disease. But hating the disease does not have to come out in your -- and negative -- behavior. Hating the disease, the impact it has on your, and the direct and indirect collateral damage that it causes you...doesn't mean you have to react to it. It doesn't mean you have to behave in a way that might seem natural, and innate, but really isn't good for you. In meetings, you will learn about ACCEPTANCE, SURRENDER, and LETTING GO...Steps one, two, and three...and you will learn about detachment, not enabling, your role, your contribution, and more. You will also learn about how you can act and react in a healthy way, not a confrontational or adversarial way. You will learn that trying to be right, trying to prove to her she's hurting herself and you, and your kids, trying to show her that she's creating massive problems with her drinking, trying all the things you are trying, all of it, while natural, and innate, is actually part of the problem. For me, yes, it was my wife's drinking -- but even more it was me failing to get her to understand what she was doing!!! I was shopping for bread in a hardware store. And when I was told the hardware store didn't have bread, I refused to accept that. I then tried to convince the hardware store owner that he should sell bread. I did all of this for years. How do you think that made me feel? Angry, resentful, sad, depressed, full of rage, scared, frustrated, victimized, mad, desperate, hopeless, helpless, and more.
Alanon -- going to meetings, many of them, as often and as many as I could, finding a sponsor, doing readings, talking to and working with my sponsor, all of that...WORKED. I got better. I got healthy.
All the best.
Bo said
Dec 11, 2019
Temple, thank you very much for the very kind words. I speak, from the heart and like it is (for me). Plain, simple, meat and potatoes, no pretentiousness and no BS. I always enjoy reading your posts/shares, and your insight and perspective on your recovery and the alanon program. That's why we are here!!! Thank you for all you do!!!
Aloha said
Dec 12, 2019
Jack,
Again, you sound like you've already got some great intuition, and your acceptance of a higher power in your life you will find is very key to seeing this program work, because Al-Anon is a spiritual program and I know for me the core root of working this program successfully is being willing to turn my will and my life and the lives of those I care about over to the care of a power greater than myself, whom I choose to call God.
The issue is that I tend to try to run on self-will a LOT. It's usually based on fear - fear of losing something or not getting something that I want. I feel like I have to continuously take charge, so there's a lot of remembering to turn things back over again and again.
I'm back because I realized I forgot to post a link to the Al-Anon web site where you can find meeting locations.
I do hope you find some. I know they've been pivotal in my own recovery.
Jack - so glad you came back around and gave an update...I love that you are already taking action - reading, researching, trusting God, etc. I can so relate to the worry, anxiety, fretting, etc. that comes with this disease. When I struggle(d) to quiet my brain and thoughts, the literature helps me settle down a bit.
Most of the daily readers have an index in the back - easy way to find readings on any/most topic of concern. Literature is available at most Al-Anon meeting locations and really helped me in-between meetings/episodes/etc. My AH (Alcoholic Husband) has had 2 heart attacks, 3 stents and triple by-pass surgery. His consumption has been greatly reduced yet it took 'all that' to get where we are.
Your approach and plan sounds healthy, which is what we're all about. Making progress, not perfection, in healing/dealing with this disease called Alcoholism. If you can't find a local meeting or lack the time to get to one/two/many, there are meetings here and other places online. These were great for me when my kids were younger and I was short on available time or restricted driving from anxiety issues. If you look to the top left, you'll see the schedule and the link to those here.
Keep coming back - you are not alone!
Maresie888 said
Dec 13, 2019
Detaching is a big skill I wish Inhad had it earlier in my life
I am at the point now in my life that if someone has a substance abuse problem I set a lot of distance
I am also at a point where is someone is not taking care of themselves I no longer step in. I observe. I might feel like stepping in but I do not.
If your wife is not doing the housework and general chores who is?
I think I have to redouble my efforts daily to out the focus on myself
Having an alcoholic spouse is tremendously difficult. Even having an alcoholic spouse who is in recovery is tremendously difficult
I am certain today about what my limits are. I had no limits when I was around an alcoholic spouse. They were wiped out, stomped on and obliterated. Thst is what is ine of the hardest things around an alcoholic is limits. Limits can be almost impossible.
Maresie
Jen61 said
Dec 14, 2019
I never thought in a million years my husband would drink and drive, but he did. He had two DUI's in 13 months. He lost his license the first time I think for about 6 months and the second time around he did not drive for 5 years. I found his alcohol in the weirdest places. And yes back then I was the alcohol police. It was the worst job ever. I went to Face to Face meetings for years and years. Without those, I do not think I would be here today. I wish you the best. Take care of yourself and your kids. Don't beat yourself up too bad. I did and it did not accomplish anything.
Bo said
Dec 16, 2019
Newcomers/first-timer's, whatever you call them...they come and go. They pop in and disappear. Some, come and stay. Some pop in and out. Whatever the case might be...
Jack, I hope you are doing well.
Maresie888 said
Dec 21, 2019
One.of the issues I dealt with was the driving. The driving and crashing, the tickets. At one time the now ex A had hit and run. By that time I had detached.
The driving is a huge red flag. The cost for me was exorbitant. It took.me years to rebuild my credit
I felt consumed.
You are not alone
Maresie
Jack1 said
Dec 21, 2019
Still here, after her hospital visit a couple weeks ago, now about a bottle or more a little over that more than half the days of the week. She tends to get the little 500 ml containers of wine at the supermarket, cuts them up and scattered them in the trash earlier in the day, then when I come home we'll often share a bottle of wine, which she usually gives most to herself, which will put it at 1.3 or so bottles many/most days. Because it's spread out, almost never actually gets completely drunk. I obsess about this toll on your health, and wear it will inevitably take things. If I start talking to her about her health in a roundabout way, even vaguely making references to alcohol intake, I guess it predictably bad reaction. Last time she told me and not harp on her.
Clearly I'm letting this consume too much headspace, and I'm having a hard time detaching. I'm extremely busy between the kids at home and my work, may look at an Al-Anon online meeting.
Iamhere said
Dec 21, 2019
Jack1 - any effort you can make to take good care of you is better than no effort at all....It would be grand if everyone had nothing but time each/every day to go to meeting after meeting and just absorb recovery like a sponge! That's rarely a reality for most - especially with employment + kids + commitments.
Online meetings were great for me when time was limited! I say, go for it - there's nothing to loose by not doing so! Glad you stopped back by and sorry to hear that not much has changed. Take good care of you, one day at a time...keep coming back!
Jack1 said
Dec 21, 2019
That last post was a hasty voice-to-text, I apologize for the various typos.
Iamhere said
Dec 22, 2019
It happens! No big deal Jack....keep coming back!
Maresie888 said
Dec 24, 2019
Looking for the wine and keeping tabs us one way to try to keep in control
There is not much control around an alcoholic
The program can help
The tools how important is thus
Christmas was very important yo.me when I was with the now ex A. We were together 7 years
He ruined every single Christmss. He never gave me one small piece of what Inasked for
I.keot asking
I kept making it important
That was my part in the insanity
Detaching when the chaos ensues and there is chaos trying to set it right is totally draining
You have to work on the detachment
Day in day out detach in anger detach in sorrow
Detach like your life depends on it
Of course we are all busy. When I.was with the ex A it was a recession. I scraped together a few jobs. I asked for his cooperation. Universally he never gave it
Eventually I.got to stop.the arguing
They set it up.so there are arguments
When you dont argue their alcoholism is back on them
That is hard work what you are doing is even harder
Remonstrating never cured an.alcoholic. the definition of an alcoholic is that they keep drinking no matter what. Their thinking and denial.is out the window
Maresie
Hopeful11 said
Jan 13, 2020
Thanks for sharing your experience, Jack. Ive been with my A fiancé for three years. I should have walked away the second month we started dating but alcoholics are cunning, they lie, manipulate and come up with lies to cover up their disease- when it gets really bad and youre caught in the thick of it, they will often attempt to gaslight you and make you think youre the one with the problem. Fortunately, I found Al-Anon. It was all I could do when I was in crisis mode. A friend who was a recovering alcoholic and Al-Anon, recommended I go to a meeting and I never looked back.
While I may not have been smart enough to walk away three years ago, at least today (living with the alcoholic) I have a community that understands what Ive been going through. These have been the toughest three years of my life and I am at the precipice of walking away from this relationship only because with the program I have learned to take the focus of the A and realize just how much I have betrayed myself and made myself sick over his disease.
Im grateful that we dont have children. When I found out I was pregnant before thanksgiving, I was bedside myself. How could I bring a child into a relationship with dysfunction and a partner who I cant rely on or trust was the question I kept asking myself. When he got drunk on Thanksgiving I was livid, he embarrassed me in front of his family, even yelled at me and I was pregnant. Distraught, sick and in the worst depression I have ever been, I ended up miscarrying two days later. I think it was a sign from god or at least thats the only thing I can say to myself that makes sense because it was the saddest time. Looking back now, as terrible as this all has been Im grateful we will not be bringing a child into this mess of a life. Dont get me wrong, when hes well- hes good. In fact, the most loving, intelligent and caring person Ive ever met but when hes drinking, he wont stop and hes another person.
Al-Anon has given me hope, its helped me take the focus of the A and on me. I once thought it was selfish. I once thought that I could help him. I once thought that my love could actually save him, I was wrong. The only person that can save the alcoholic is the alcoholic. And often times they have to hit the bottom. I thought he did and for almost a year he was sober. However, this insidious disease has a cunning way of reading its ugly, debilitating head and when the alcoholic wants to drink, there is nothing that will stop them except themselves and the grace of god.
What helps me in moments of despair is the serenity prayer. May the words bring you serenity and peace.
Sending you and your family prayers. Keep coming back.
My wife and I have had drinks on a fairly regular basis over the many years of our marriage. On occasion one or both of us would drink too much, but that was pretty rare.
Earlier this year she completed a weight loss/dieting plan which resulted in getting to nearly the weight she was when we were married, and really has been on a confidence high as a result. It was inspiring. One of the rules of the plan was that she not drink ay alcohol, and she abstained for about 7-8 months straight. Once she went into maintenance mode for her plan, she allowed herself to have wine on occasion, then eventually began to drink the same amount as before.
A couple of weeks after this, I realized that she was drinking a lot more than I realized. After drinking a bottle of wine earlier in the day, she would go to the store and consume another bottle on her own (apparently drinking it in the car somewhere and disposing of the bottle before coming home), then after she vomited would say that it must be from the wine bottle she had earlier in the day. I've come across hidden stashes in the house, sometimes with multiple wine bottles, cans of different spiked waters, etc. I noticed a pattern where she tends to hide alcohol purchases when she gets groceries (I used to see this through the grocery website where it posts copies of the receipts, until she changed the login).
After I noticed the first stash, and was able to calculate that she was drinking 1-2 bottles/day, I thought that if I loved her I should at least express my awareness and concern to her. I basically just said, without any details, that she'd been drinking a lot recently, and I was concerned about her health if it continued, and if she needed anything I was there. She didn't talk to me for about half a day or so, then eventually thawed out and we continued like it never happened.
I noticed within a few days she was continuing to consume the same amount, but working harder to hide it. It's been about 3 months or so now, and I've noticed she's getting more into whisky and bourbon. She lies sometimes to me about where she's been (recently said a meeting went late, but I verified from someone else there it ended over 2 hrs before she actually arrived home, with slurred speech and clearly having drunk, despite the cover up she used on her face to hide her red cheeks and the gum she chewed). I can see at times she seems to go through some internal struggles where she will try to get liquor out of the house by giving it to someone else (which I confirmed), then other times try to hide alcohol in places in our home.
She's a homeschool stay-at-home mom, and I wonder some times if the kids are getting very regular schooling, although they are all happy and healthy kids. The house often looks exactly the same when I get back from work as when I left.
I'm not really sure at this point what I should do, aside from minimally making sure our kids stay safe and making sure it doesn't impact our finances too drastically. So far she seems to have avoided driving with them in the car when she's been drinking. I know I can personally do nothing to stop her from drinking in all likelihood. I'm not even sure if I should talk to her about it to make her aware that I know the drinking has continued, because I don't think it would help her or our relationship either way. I'm 100% committed to staying with her regardless of whether she continues to drink, or even if it gets much worse. I have read a little about not being an enabler, and I try not to go out of my way to cover duties that lie more in her responsibility, just because she is using that time to use the computer and drink. I believe I am the only one among friends and family who is aware of the direction she's heading in. My family doesn't have much of a history of alcohol abuse, but her family has a history of it.
Any direction or advice you can give me is really appreciated. This is a strange, troubling new thing going on with the woman I love, and I want to make sure I'm doing what I can for her, while acknowledging I can do nothing to stop her or even positively influence her drinking. In a way I want something to happen as a result of her drinking (not tragic, hopefully) which will be a wake up call to her. She is not the type to reach out for help, and I think she would almost die before she would do that.
Feeling lost.
Hello Jack- ah guess that these are the classic signs and symptoms.
...
Changing one four-letter word- -lost- for another... ~help~.
I am a long timer, here, with this group, and my time zone places me on your path.
There are many people here- much closer to the action- who will respond during their Tuesday.
I admire your courage. Kids involved- yep... ...good thoughts. Keep coming back. Take care...
...
-DavidG.
Hello and welcome. I don't have much wisdom to share (I am deep in my own recovery challenges with an AH and two young kids) but I just wanted to give a word of sort-of-encouragement. For all the things I don't know, I DO know that you are in the right place (online), and hopefully will find a right place in person (Face to Face meetings). I fear for you that things could get a lot worse (I'm living that right now; my AH is passed out while I type) and having a support system will be really helpful. There are incredibly wise people here (the above poster being one of them) who have saved my sanity more days than I can count.
I do know that eventually your spouse will slip and drive with the kids in the car. This was my experience. I had tried to "make everything good" for him so that any stress would be alleviated and thus he might hopefully do the right thing. (If you look up the word "enabler", my photo should be in the dictionary right next to it.) I thought I was being a supportive spouse. I did not understand that his drinking was going to take precedence over everything, even our children's safety. Turns out that the first thing that alcohol does is mess with your ability to think clearly, and that includes thinking about what is safe even when your own child is next to you. I was lucky in that my AH did not have an accident with the kids in the car (although that was only because other people are better drivers than he is when he is drunk) but then I got the memo that my luck might not hold out. I try not to make it so that he is the one who has to drive them places.
I'll just share what people here have shared with me. Be good and kind to yourself. You cannot control your spouse. It is also not your fault.
Hang in there.
-Fedora
It sounds like you've already got some realistic viewpoints on things - knowing that telling her to quit isn't going to help matters, etc. You're right that if she wants to stop it's all on her.
Alcoholism is a progressive disease and unfortunately you'll see more of the same behaviors growing in extremes as it takes over.
What's important for you is that you have a problem with your wife's drinking, and that's where getting to face-to-face Al-Anon meetings will prove helpful for you and your family. This disease brings out crazy behaviors in ourselves, too - checking up on the alcoholic, monitoring how much they drink, keeping track of where they've been and for how long, etc. Trying to find the right thing to say and the right way to say it so that hopefully they'll finally understand the danger they're in... It makes us sick, sick, sick, as well. Right now these behaviors may seem reasonable but eventually they start to rule your life and that's no way to live - I know.
If I have any advice for you is to find at least six meetings near you and get to them all as soon as possible. You'll find different meetings have different "vibes" to them, and you'll feel more comfortable and at home in some than others. Start attending meetings regularly. If you can, pick up some literature. Be sure to ask for a newcomer's packet if it isn't at first offered to you. Read the literature. If Al-Anon feels like a good fit for you, find yourself a sponsor and start working the steps.
I hope you find this helpful. Sending prayers for you and your family.
We don't give advice, instead, we offer ESH (Experience, Strength & Hope) to others. Al-Anon gave me a safe place to 'dump' my worries, concerns, anger, etc. and others shared their stories without judging or advising. It was refreshing to be among others who truly understood what I was facing, what I felt, etc.
Alcoholism is considered a family disease as it does seem to reach beyond the drinker to others who love them or live with them. My own recovery journey started with find and attending meetings with an open mind. It was suggested to me that I look for the similarities vs. the differences and that I keep trying different meetings until I found one that felt like a good fit for me.
I do know that I am a stubborn person, reasonably intelligent and experienced with this disease....so - I really tried to battle it and fix others with it for a long while before I surrendered. It felt necessary at the time to keep fighting everything and everyone, until it consumed me. I slowly came to accept that no amount of begging, talking, pleading, screaming, threatening, encouraging, etc. would change another person with this disease.
I hope you keep coming back - there is always hope and help in recovery. You are not alone - I too am sending prayers to you and yours!
Welcome. The difficult situation you are in is very common. An overwhelming percentage of people in alanon have faced the very same thing. However, you are trying to apply logic to a very illogical person and problem. Your wife is an alcoholic. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad and sad news. However, when one is an alcoholic -- all bets are off. Logic doesn't apply. Neither does intellect. Nothing you do will matter... because...the alcoholic will not stop drinking UNLESS and UNTIL they want to. Period. Her behavior and her actions have made it clear that -- just for today -- she has no intentions of quitting drinking.
Many people here in this forum -- and please keep in mind, this is not a conference approved, official, alanon forum -- will tell you "We don't give advice" and will stand on the formal ceremony of a statement that is very much taken out of context. That said, I have advice for you, as follows:
1) Go to face to face alanon meetings -- as many as you can, and as often as you can.
2) Find a sponsor. You can get a brochure on sponsorship when you attend the face to face meeting and the people there will talk to you about it when you ask them.
3) Start doing the work -- make changes, in your thinking, your behavior, your actions and reactions. Talk to your sponsor, start working the program with him.
If you begin to focus on you, you can and will get better. All the best.
I'm so sorry you are in that terrible place.
I don't know why I'm telling you this--when I first came to Alanon and heard the "you can't make them" mantra I felt as if I'd really done something wrong.
I was married many, many moons ago. And he was an atypical drinker (alcoholic) and I had no experience and there wasn't that much information out there. It took until our child was almost 13 years old, and the drinking had gotten to be daily (suggestion by boss's boss: When you move, take your old refrigerator and put it in the garage to hold your booze.) and the child and I both realized at the same time--she'd been keeping track of how much liquor was in the bottles. And he was slurring and responded to me disrespectfully on a Saturday morning.
I knew less than nothing, except that (I am positive this happened, but when I bought a later edition it wasn't in there) that Eric Berne, in Games People Play, said, "Alcoholic is a three-handed game, played by husband, wife and bartender, and it can't be won." So I knew what I had to do--didn't know how we'd survive, but I knew we had to leave, the child and I.
So that day I left him passed out on the bathroom floor--I never had covered his tracks, or even covered his body when he passed out twice--thought he was being stupid--I'd suggested if he spaced drinks out more, he wouldn't get drunk. And the next morning, hoping he had a really bad headache, I said to him in a neutral, calm voice--this was the first time I had addressed the actual problem--"I need to know if you are going to continue to drink, because I have to plan my life."
That is all I ever said. And he quit, cold turkey. It must have gotten his attention and he didn't want to lose his family. And I think he knew I'd do it--I was very clear. And he can do that--quit cigarettes the same way.
He's never recovered, but he did lose the desire to drink. Years later, before that had come to pass, he had a flirtation with Listerine, which is high enough proof that it needn't be ingested to get the effect. And I got my Shrink to help coerce him into taking the test. He got caught on the "Have you evers" and to get him into AA. He didn't last long, but did come out of denial. I went to Al-Anon at the same time, and as I said, felt that I'd done something wrong--he and I both thought he quit because of what I said.
As an aside, I think it is harder for women to overcome alcoholism, because their bodies tend to be smaller and have a higher concentration of water. Also, if they are at home most of the time they aren't as exposed.
I wish I had found Alanon earlier and had had more options for meetings. I was so sick when around cigarette smoke, and there were very few smoke-free meetings then. I also wish I hadn't lived in a place where cross-talk seemed to be mandatory, and every now and then an AA hadn't decided to come along and straighten us all out. My theory is that the average A has a stronger ego than a typical Al-Anon, who is no match,
I think, however that Alanon is a God-send. I remember the first time I called the Al-Anon number, in despair--it was 10 years after he'd quit and I found five beers rolled up in newsprint, in a drawer in the workshop. I was told where there was a no-smoking meeting after the weekend, and to remember two things--it wasn't my fault, and things would get better. I repeated that over and over to myself because I was in a panic. It didn't even register that he'd had one out of six. And that was the case.
We know the feelings of despair, the helplessness, the sheer horror of having a family member taken over by something unfamiliar. I was in a state of ignorance and obviously denial for a long time--I'd never been around a person who drank, even occasionally, and he could drive in a blackout better than I could sober. And for the first 12 years, he only drank occasionally. So I didn't go through a prolonged nightmare, which is much more typical.
My heart goes out to you and your family. There is help here and in meetings.
Blessings,
Temple
Things that helped me:
!. Reading all the scientific literature on Addiction. What you don't know, can keep you in denial.
2. Al-Anon meetings.
3. Don't ever allow yourself to believe that she won't drive drunk with the kids in the car.
4. Investigate what living with an addicted parent can do to the kids... (many things don't surface until they are adults!)...once I fully understood that, I was ready & fully motivated to change!
I'm not sure how old your children are. If any is old enough to drive, that would be good.
Because you said she drives while or after drinking, I know her reflexes and judgement is impaired. Anyone in her vehicle and anyone else on the road she takes is in danger. In that situation, she's a very bad driver. Think about not subjecting your children to this danger.
Is there alternate transportation available?
Another point that resonates with me is that alanon, the steps, the slogans, the principles of the alanon program, everything about the alanon program...is about US. It is about what WE need to do to get better, to get healthy. It is about what WE choose and learn to have as our thinking, our mindset, our way of being. It is about OUR actions, reactions, etc. The alanon program is about US focusing on US, OUR tools, OUR recovery. This may just be a phrase you hear in the opening of face to face meetings, however, here, in this forum, I think that entire concept is not just dismissed, but neglected and forgotten. Now, this may seem sophomoric and rather simplistic -- however, being that this is not an approved or official alanon forum -- we don't focus on approved literature, guidelines, structure, etc. I feel that's important, because when someone comes here in crisis, looking for help, wanting insight, etc. -- from what perspective? Anyone? Any perspective? Sure, that's what we have here in this forum. Any and all. But that's not what you have in an alanon meeting. I think what gets collapsed into this dynamic is the analysis of the alcoholic, why they do this, why they do that, etc. In alanon we are taught to keep the focus on ourselves. There are reasons behind that. We focus on US, our recovery. That said, in face to face alanon meetings I attend in NY and NJ, one of the things I hear in the opening of the meetings are "if you are a member of another 12-step program or fellowship, we ask you to keep that confidential, and to limit your focus to the alanon program and alanon perspective" and more along those lines. So, my point is that, for me, I want to focus on the alanon perspective -- a member of alanon talking to me, speaking to me, giving me insight, perspective, on, let's say detachment, or enabling. I don't want the AA perspective. Now, that's just me.
Be that as it may -- each and every person contributes, in whatever way they can, want, etc. We say take what you like and leave the rest. When I look to my recovery, my work, it's alanon. That's where I go -- to alanon meetings. That's why I come here -- knowing that this is not a conference approved, official, alanon forum. However, for me, focusing on the alcoholic/addict, what they do, why they do, why they don't see this, say that, and all of that...that, right there, is my problem. That, right there, is my sickness. That's what I need to be clean and sober from. That's my drug that I need to get off. That's my drinking that I need to quit. That's the alanon perspective! While it's been said that while the steps of AA and alanon are exactly the same EXCEPT for ONE WORD...the mindset, the orientation, the philosophy, of the two, are very, very different.
So, what does that mean here? For me, it's about...surprise...ACCEPTANCE. Once you have acceptance, you now have the ability to no longer focus on the alcoholic. Once I did that. I got better. I got healthy.
Bo--you are amazing, and brave, and generous. Bless you for being here even though some of us could just drive you nuts. At least I'm pretty sure I could. I get something out of every post of yours. Yes--when I am no longer reactive, I will have achieved a great victory. You are so right. I hope you stay around and keep saying that.
Love to everybody. I love how we are mostly at different stages and everyone is treated so very well. Those with much recovery haven't just gone off into the sunset, but are here helping those of us who are less enlightened.
Bless us all
Temple
Temple: I would not be surprised if your thoughts on the alcoholic ego are essentially true. I think ego sometimes leads one initially into alcoholism, and then disease makes them stay. You seem like a brave person.
Seahorse: My heart goes out to you. It is so hard to keep on keeping on.
The secondary effects of lying and dishonesty by the A to the SO are what are in part, I think, so devastating to a relationship. Personally, I feel like the lying has become a wedge between us in that it marks off an elephant in the room that we don't discuss, and which betrays marital trust. It also makes me feel like I'm the only adult in the house, and that makes me feel lonelier.
I have a lot to learn, thanks for the references to resources. I will use it. I've read more about alcoholism in the past few weeks than in my life.
My children are young, all younger than 9. My wife will go out for "errands", or to a meeting with adult leaders in a local organization, and that's when the drinking and driving seem to be taking place. Otherwise, if she has the kids on a morning errand, she picks up alcohol and then camps out at home with them for the next few hours. So far I haven't identified a situation when she's been DUI with them in the car, but all of your warnings are well-taken.
Earlier this week, I took her to the hospital due to sudden elevated blood pressure and heart rate. It was a wake-up call to her, it seemed; I haven't noticed that she's been drinking since then. She seemed genuinely scared, and although neither of us discussed it there's no way she could not see the cardiac episode as unrelated to her elevated drinking. She seems more organized and on top of things since then. Of course I hope that it's a watershed moment for her, but I am braced for the next time...I am resolved to simply love her but let go of my anxiety as best I can when and if it returns, to protect our family as best I can, and to play the role in this world that I am meant to.
My friend- I sometimes feel like the janitor- at a street corner cafe- putting chairs on tables- and bidding nigh- night to the last customer... mainly because I live far and away from the USA; and my time zone places me here...
... in Alanon we run through "the steps". And you already have run through steps 2 and three- with mention of your uncomplicated faith. Something I share- and which can be a great friend and ally.
Early days- and ~baby steps~. A drinker, at this stage may try to stop, or to control their drinking... and it is sort of a natural test- a reality check. Along with faith- I take breathing and relaxation... ...and shift the focus to myself- which you are doing too.
You have my utmost respect.
...
You can love the person, and hate the disease. But hating the disease does not have to come out in your -- and negative -- behavior. Hating the disease, the impact it has on your, and the direct and indirect collateral damage that it causes you...doesn't mean you have to react to it. It doesn't mean you have to behave in a way that might seem natural, and innate, but really isn't good for you. In meetings, you will learn about ACCEPTANCE, SURRENDER, and LETTING GO...Steps one, two, and three...and you will learn about detachment, not enabling, your role, your contribution, and more. You will also learn about how you can act and react in a healthy way, not a confrontational or adversarial way. You will learn that trying to be right, trying to prove to her she's hurting herself and you, and your kids, trying to show her that she's creating massive problems with her drinking, trying all the things you are trying, all of it, while natural, and innate, is actually part of the problem. For me, yes, it was my wife's drinking -- but even more it was me failing to get her to understand what she was doing!!! I was shopping for bread in a hardware store. And when I was told the hardware store didn't have bread, I refused to accept that. I then tried to convince the hardware store owner that he should sell bread. I did all of this for years. How do you think that made me feel? Angry, resentful, sad, depressed, full of rage, scared, frustrated, victimized, mad, desperate, hopeless, helpless, and more.
Alanon -- going to meetings, many of them, as often and as many as I could, finding a sponsor, doing readings, talking to and working with my sponsor, all of that...WORKED. I got better. I got healthy.
All the best.
Temple, thank you very much for the very kind words. I speak, from the heart and like it is (for me). Plain, simple, meat and potatoes, no pretentiousness and no BS. I always enjoy reading your posts/shares, and your insight and perspective on your recovery and the alanon program. That's why we are here!!! Thank you for all you do!!!
Jack,
Again, you sound like you've already got some great intuition, and your acceptance of a higher power in your life you will find is very key to seeing this program work, because Al-Anon is a spiritual program and I know for me the core root of working this program successfully is being willing to turn my will and my life and the lives of those I care about over to the care of a power greater than myself, whom I choose to call God.
The issue is that I tend to try to run on self-will a LOT. It's usually based on fear - fear of losing something or not getting something that I want. I feel like I have to continuously take charge, so there's a lot of remembering to turn things back over again and again.
I'm back because I realized I forgot to post a link to the Al-Anon web site where you can find meeting locations.
I do hope you find some. I know they've been pivotal in my own recovery.
https://al-anon.org/al-anon-meetings/find-an-al-anon-meeting/
Prayers to you and your family.
Most of the daily readers have an index in the back - easy way to find readings on any/most topic of concern. Literature is available at most Al-Anon meeting locations and really helped me in-between meetings/episodes/etc. My AH (Alcoholic Husband) has had 2 heart attacks, 3 stents and triple by-pass surgery. His consumption has been greatly reduced yet it took 'all that' to get where we are.
Your approach and plan sounds healthy, which is what we're all about. Making progress, not perfection, in healing/dealing with this disease called Alcoholism. If you can't find a local meeting or lack the time to get to one/two/many, there are meetings here and other places online. These were great for me when my kids were younger and I was short on available time or restricted driving from anxiety issues. If you look to the top left, you'll see the schedule and the link to those here.
Keep coming back - you are not alone!
Jack, I hope you are doing well.
Online meetings were great for me when time was limited! I say, go for it - there's nothing to loose by not doing so! Glad you stopped back by and sorry to hear that not much has changed. Take good care of you, one day at a time...keep coming back!