How we dealt with group conscience, in the good old days...
DavidG said
Oct 2, 2019
...
This wasn't planned- it just happened. In my home group we had a different chair each week. If we could be picked the chair for the next meeting, from the current meeting.
The chair got to pick how the meeting was run. A reading- from the daily reader, a topic, or whatever. If here was a slight change that was okay. Everything was conference approved. But inside of that there was a certain amount of leeway. Our local group left a fair bit of time- for personal sharing. But if that dried up there were back-ups... like reading the steps, traditions, and concepts
So if something worked for the group- it became a part of the group culture- the group conscience.
The only time we had a group conscience meeting- we had been meeting at the local school. Some of the members were smokers- and wanted a meeting place where they could smoke at the meeting. So we had conscience meeting and a vote. The smokers won- and we moved into the AA rooms, for our meetings.
...
hotrod said
Oct 2, 2019
DAVID I have been an alanon member for over 30 years and we have always elected group reps, chairs . Literature persons and and tresurers quarterly.
The format of the meeting wAS WRITTEN OUT FOR ALL MEMBERS TO FOLLOW AND IT WAS DECIDED WITH A GROUP conscience . OFTEN MEMBERS ASK FOR a group conscience meeting to decide changes in format and they are held.
DavidG said
Oct 2, 2019
Not surprising- that there are differences- because we live in different parts of the world. Our group was in an upland town of 1000 people. What you call a 'conscience meeting', we would call 'a business meeting'. ~Group conscience~ is an entirely different concept over here. We had more of a committee at district level, which may have covered a population of 300,000 people. Tradition 4. Sadly our local meeting is in permanent recess. I found that it took years of building up a meeting- often with only one person at a meeting, sometimes. So it is a sad loss to see a meeting fall over. ...
hotrod said
Oct 2, 2019
Thanks David I am sorry to hear this. Glad you found on line meetings
--
DavidG said
Oct 3, 2019
Thanks Betty... ...
I look at traditions one and two- in a practical way. No longer the glassy-ted optimist... ...
Looking at the thread- on meeting dynamics- and a topic like this will bring a round-up of views and opinions- and most of us did not get a lot of this- in our alcoholic families.
I tend to watch and respect the person who starts the thread- kind of like a mini-chair... what I might add- depends how well I know this person...
few boundaries here- greeting time, sharing time and coffee time seems to all roll into one...
but, over time I think we sense where we are, with this- and what is appropriate.
...my nana used to say: make haste slowly. And I know that was not conference approved. So I should say: one day at a time: which says virtually the same thing!
This is a lovely place- and it has a lovely atmosphere. There is a degree of tolerance... I think most of the guidelines come from example... ...
Bo said
Oct 3, 2019
Never attended a meeting such as that. My experience has always been more of what Betty said.
In my experience, there is a reason, a methodology, behind a meeting having structure, format, guidelines, etc. There is also a benefit in wherever I've gone, all over the US -- every meeting I go to, minus a few micro items, is the same. From NYC to LA, from Maine to Florida, Washington to California, there are some minor differences -- but the meeting, is for the most part, the same. I think that's a good thing, but that's just me.
DavidG said
Oct 4, 2019
This happened to me about 5 years ago. I mentioned this on the MIP ACA group- and was blocked for saying my own ESH. And the moderators tried to get the admins to ban me completely.This seems more like a dysfunctional family- when mother has a black eye and bruises. You tripped up, didn't you mother? Yes i tripped over in the yard. So- there you are- get on and do your homework. That sort of thing.
This happened to me personally here in my home town- in my Alanon group.
I was taking my daily reader- Hope for Today to meetings. I was not reading from it. I asked if I could do a reading from HFT. I was told that i could not- because it was not conference approved. I was told that my problems was about NUTS. Not Using The Steps. Having been in alanon for years I was sure that NUTS was NOT conference approved.
So I asked politely if we could raise Hope For Today as a conscience issue and discuss the topic. I was told straight up that if I called a conscience meeting all the women would vote against me!
Sad to say- that Alanon group fell over within a few weeks. I think the younger members thought I was wrong- that I did not know what I was doing.
[I would venture to say that this is the kind of thing we pick up from our FOO's. ... "I'll give you something to cry about!"
...
it sucks, I know. That is why- as a member and group rep. of the MIP ACA group- that members should have the chance to defend themselves. And have a proper group conscience meeting. By personal messaging, on the group business board, or on the MIP Business Board.
Pretty easy to figure out- with a bit of group discussion.
As it appears- a group conscience meeting in NZ may world is a bit different from the USA. More like a business meeting in the USA.
Iamhere said
Oct 4, 2019
David - I am sorry that happened to you....I was attending a new, smaller group for a while and enjoyed the membership greatly! However, the meeting 'founder' struggled to realize that for success, growth and long-term survival, the principles and traditions, as outlined in the manual really must be used.
We were small so several folks were doing double duty for trusted servant positions. I was active in a couple other groups, so opted out of trusted service for this group. The treasurer had a medical issue, and long story short, ended up blind - clearly could not do the function any longer. I was asked to step in, and readily agreed. To this point, there were not regular reports for group members which I began, per the manual.
To make a long story short, once the treasurer report became public, it was challenged by members. Decisions on the spending were made by the founder, with no group discussion, conscious, etc. 80% of collected donations were being used to send another member to a variety of conferences, not those that required representation.
As you can imagine, it became a thorn in the side of the group. The founder was unwilling to step back, consider how the group wanted funds used (to help others seeking recovery vs. conference travel) and the group folded. I believe that any time a group steps away from the suggested format/guidelines, there is risk. Those who came before me/us took great care in putting together a detailed service manual so we could all function in a harmonious way, putting principles in front of personalities. My sponsor just kept reminding me that some folks are sicker than others and I should do what works for me.
I've been asked to be a part of starting another group and am not sure if I will. Simply because I'm actively involved in other groups, have some RL (Real Life) service I am committed to and don't want to stretch myself too thin. I will certainly show up and be a member among members, but not too sure beyond that. As always, I'll Pause and Pray before I Proceed and do what I feel called to do if/when necessary.
(((Hugs))) - I too am glad you found MIP and are a member here!
hotrod said
Oct 4, 2019
David i believe that HFT was orignally looked upon as ACA literature.nd and was not recognized as alanon approved just as the AA Big book is not recognized
I am not sure why you needed to share this here as these actions are not what most encounter in an alanon meetings . Groups tend to adhere to the traditions and if a problem surfaces they can discuss it based on alanon principles and the Traditions SORRY your group did not. I can see why it folded.
DavidG said
Oct 4, 2019
Oh yes... HFT was always used in ACA, along with one other reader, mainly... ...
We still use it really... -and Alanon has it's own adult child primer... From Survival to a Recovery. A great stepping stone. A great resource. ...
-- Edited by DavidG on Friday 4th of October 2019 06:00:23 PM
Bo said
Oct 5, 2019
Agreed about HFT and ACOA. Like I said, I never encountered a meeting such as this. I am sorry to hear this David. Every meeting I go to, here in NNJ, and in NYC, is conference approved, and is run according to the guidelines and principles of alanon. Slightly different opening and closing, and so forth. But they are all alanon meetings. People visit from out of town all the time and never have a problem with any of them, and they enjoy them. I attend meetings in FL all the time, never have a problem with any of them, and I enjoy them.
Like I also said -- I think it's a very good thing that all alanon meetings are "the same" (for the most part). They are supposed to be. There are reasons for this.
If a group conscience got "shot down" -- then in my opinion, that is not a legitimate, conference approved meeting. They've gone rouge so to speak, LOL.
While I respectfully disagree with you about the ability to have a proper group conscience here in this forum, I think the point is more about the f2f meeting, and the experience you had. To be perfectly honest, I find this forum far more deviant from conference approved alanon and alanon guidelines and principles than any meeting I attend. Now, that's just my experience. LOL.
DavidG said
Oct 5, 2019
Bo... Wanted to steer the topic away a little here, and your posting give me a chance.
I have attended AA Open meetings in Fl, NY and Ca. The meetings between east and west coast were vastly different!
Actually In Alanon all the basics and principals and policies are the same. It is true that the quotes in ODAT and Courage To Change come from all over the universe. I know- that in the middle steps I was afraid to put a foot wrong- [say the wrong thing] -but this stemmed more from my family experience, than from my surroundings, in the rooms. It was a part of my healing.
I am hearing more and more comments around this board- about what people expect from a group. And I like to add my own- sometimes- about this group especially.
And people's experience here- of F2F Alanon comes from all over the globe!
I like it to be heard- and to hear... peoples' own truth. ...
Bo said
Oct 5, 2019
David, I agree with you. I found the meetings in CA different, meaning a different dynamic, a different vibe. I found similar in FL. The common denominator was that the majority of the people had many years in program. However, the format, for the most part, was the same. The "flow" and the outline of the meeting was the same.
I also feel and believe that my comments about this board, and someone else's comments about this board, or a f2f meeting, are just that -- each person's comments...opinion, perspective, and so on. I agree with you, I think it's a good thing for people to be heard, yes, their own truths. That's why I was surprised at the reaction and commentary I heard here, on this forum, when a group conscience was asked about. For me, a conference approved meeting either follows the guidelines, principles, and format, vis a vis World Services, and the alanon program -- or perhaps the meeting, as a result of a group conscience, had gone "rogue" so to speak. However, if a meeting doesn't follow those things...than for me, that's not a legitimate alanon meeting.
DavidG said
Oct 6, 2019
Bo... it is my belief that the conscience meeting, called on the Business Board, had little or nothing to do with MIP Alanon.
I think the Alanon forum here- is in good heart. The issues arising surround one of our other 12 Step groups, in my view. -D.
I logged in there last night- and was banned. This morning [Monday] I find my post was blocked. However the admins are doing their best- they do a good job. They seem to be dealing with a difficult situation. Be patient. ...
-- Edited by DavidG on Sunday 6th of October 2019 02:48:26 PM
Bo said
Oct 6, 2019
DavidG wrote:
Bo... it is my belief that the conscience meeting, called on the Business Board, had little or nothing to do with MIP Alanon.
I think the Alanon forum here- is in good heart. The issues arising surround one of our other 12 Step groups, in my view. -D.
I logged in there last night- and was banned. This morning [Monday] I find my post was blocked. However the admins are doing their best- they do a good job. They seem to be dealing with a difficult situation. Be patient. ...
-- Edited by DavidG on Sunday 6th of October 2019 02:48:26 PM
David, why were you banned? If you don't mind me asking. You had a post blocked? What does that mean? What difficult situation? I am unaware of what you are referring to.
That said, I am not speaking to administrators' efforts, commitment, or anything of the like. I am speaking to the fact that what goes on here -- would never occur at any alanon meeting I've gone to. If one person calls for/suggests a group conscious -- it is deplorable in my opinion -- that a couple of other people can sit in judgment over whether or not they feel the subject matter of the suggested group conscious warrants a group conscious...and one person gets to say, no, I don't think that warrants a group conscious...and it doesn't happen. That's not only non alanon...it's the antithesis of alanon! Hence, this is not a conference approved forum. A few bullies get to decide what gets addressed and what doesn't. That's just my opinion.
Now, I don't harp on it. I am only stating it -- and clearly, and once -- to make my point and speak my mind. It's not for discussion purposes. Sorry for the problems David.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 6th of October 2019 05:24:06 PM
Bo said
Oct 6, 2019
In addition...I come here, I read, I share, and that's all. That's what I take from here and what I give to here.
I don't want to be a part of any of the discussions. I saw how that is handled here. I only needed to see it once.
DavidG said
Oct 6, 2019
Bo,
I was banned for something I said about Alanon.
I was something that any number of us have said, from time to time... ...as a part of our ESH...
So I asked for conscience meeting to discuss this. It is a question of what power do the moderators of the groups have? To protect the safety of the MIP groups.
But it is the members themselves, including the mods, who run the groups.
Bo said
Oct 6, 2019
DavidG wrote:
It is a question of what power do the moderators of the groups have? To protect the safety of the MIP groups.
But it is the members themselves, including the mods, who run the groups.
Thank you very much David.
Regarding your two sentences above...One, good question. Two, if you say so. LOL.
Iamhere said
Oct 6, 2019
As a moderator for the Al-Anon group area only, I can say that I've never banned a member. I have banned spammers, which are those who join and being thread after thread about any/every thing under the sun that's not recovery/Al-Anon related. I am sorry David that you've been banned - I am assuming it's from another area since you're still posting....
As far as the MIP Al-Anon group area and group conscious, I am not aware of anyone suggesting that ideas, changes, etc. could not be brought forward. I know that anytime anyone has brought an idea to me publicly or via private message, I've encouraged them to post about it to check interest in a group conscious meeting and/or changes to 'things'.
MIP has many members. Some pass through, some stay. Some leave and return and some leave never to return. Those who stay or return must find some value in our group or they would move on. This online group is no different than any other online group, with exception, we have trusted servants as moderators. Every member is welcome to make suggestions, express ideas, etc. When John was still alive, he was the ultimate authority and the 'final answer'. I had no issue with that as he was gracious in what he built and offered to all of us.
I know that MIP has given me a lovely tool for my recovery program. I love that anyone, any where can reach out and post and that most offer ESH in return. I also continue to grow and learn through all shares, formal meetings, here, informal meetings, so it's a win/win for me. I am grateful for what John built and left for us and am humbled to be a member and part of it.
My ESH on Business Meetings & Group Conscious Meetings - I rarely attend business meetings. If I am in a service position, I do as it's requested/required as part of the position. I've had 32+ years of recovery business meetings, and they are not my favorite thing. I will always attend a group conscious meeting IF it is important to my recovery. In both scenarios, I fully understand I will openly accept what the group decides in lieu of my participation. I do truly believe that participation is the key to harmony in recovery, but also respect and understand that participation is optional. Off to watch Sunday Night Football - hang in there David!!
DavidG said
Oct 6, 2019
Thanks Iam... and yes- great example- identify your own issues- and stick to them. Enjoy the game! It is 2 pm Monday here- so a very different time. This month I am standing for the local council- and stand an average chance of getting in. Would not be possible- without knowing exactly what you say- or get completely bogged down.
Bo...have picked up your posts around this topic- and your concerns. On the Business Board, first up I used a quote. The whoosh- one of the admins challenged this one. I can still get defensive mode sometimes- flight fright or fight. But I think I held my ground- that one time! Got steady on my feet.
This was apparently a no-no on the Alanon board- because of cross-posting... but we were in a different setting. I see maturity on other members here... ...see the people as a good crowd, with heaps of experience... still a lot to learn, of course.
So I haven't copied and pasted your comment above... after you saw something handled here... This is my comfort zone here...on this group. I don't tend the shake the tree.
But I suggest things have changed here... ...you only have to look at the talk on this topic... ...like everyone else here- and have been in a lot of tricky and difficult situations. That is why I came along to Alanon in the first place. What happens to me mostly now is "a storm in a teacup". Easy first to figure out -step 1... and to sort out [steps 2 thru 10].
We deserve this space in our lives. A space like this, or any group, only works well where everyone pitches in... ...it does not exist, except for us!
Bo said
Oct 7, 2019
I hear you David. The entire quote thing is a very ambiguous topic -- either you can or you can't, but it depends on the use, so maybe you can, and maybe you can't. LOL. If you can't then the feature shouldn't be there or it should be turned off. I get it though. I've used it. I think I heard one or more people say that's the equivalent of, or this forum's version of cross-talk. OK, if they say so, LOL.
David, I hear what you are saying about the people here, what they have to offer, etc. -- and I DO NOT disagree with you. Nothing I've said speaks to that. I've never referred to a specific person on these boards in that type of context -- he said, she said, he did this, she did that, etc. My post(s) strictly and exclusively referred to how something was handled and addressed -- and yes, it was handled and addressed, actually dismissed as I've said, by a couple of people. But that's not about the people necessarily, it's more about the tone, the overall dynamic of the "room" so to speak. It's not about people -- or personalities -- it's about principles. And being that this is not a conference approved forum, and the guidelines of alanon -- in totality -- don't apply, I understand what that means.
That said, I said what I said. I won't say it again. I am not offering it up as, nor am I interested in discussing it. Move on.
Enjoy and have a great day everyone.
DavidG said
Oct 7, 2019
Some years ago- our country had a big treatment centre- the only one in the country. It was up in the mountains- with hot springs near by. I have said before- that our valley door was flooded and work crews came in the build the dam. Both AA and Alanon were rocking. Over about 5 or 6 years about 24 people from our groups went to through this treatment centre. Most were successful- because they were already going to meetings, and the AA's had actually stopped drinking.
But overall- that good old centre was closed down forever. I went there too. I started with a group of 20 people and we passed out with 5. And that was the norm. the fall-out rate was huge.
My point is- was that centre held AA, NA and Alanon meeting- but lots of groups and workshops. This was reflected strongly, of course, in the group culture back in my home town.
I sometimes wondered, in Alanon if everything we did or said was actually conference approved. There were no conscience meetings around this- what worked actually stayed and other stuff was probably discarded. Sadly though, once the dam project was over numbers in Alanon dried up. Two AA groups carry on- with gusto.And our small town also has an NA group.
Fast forward [segue] to about 8 years ago. The CEO of Alanon came to his most southern province- in the world. Rick B. He stood up and spoke twice. Once as CEO, and secondly as "just another member" of Alanon. I was impressed with this. it gave me a really good sense of boundaries between the two roles. And boundaries were something I was hungry for.
If you are still reading this Bo... this is an invisible space. The cross-talk guideline has come through both AA and Alanon- over recent years. I have seen it applied rigidly, across the board- in some instances. I have seen it offer space and safe boundaries- in many meetings.
Maybe I would use phrases like: "let's give this a go". Or," lets see if this works"... and it just filters in... and it sticks around- when it makes sense.
In this group- we must have greeting time, sharing time, and coffee time.
Sometimes, in the middle of a thread, I will kick-back and get to know a member a little better. After all we do share our heart and soul in our Alanon groups. I actually do know some members outside of the group here. But mostly I get to know people here- right in the middle...
...where there are lots of people around- and maybe that is a male thing?
I sometimes call this "coffee time" or maybe even carpark time. When the programme starts to gel. And we realise that we are on the same page- with other people.
Lots of us have a real fear or "rambling on". Or at least i do. Maybe we have had precious little of this- in our lives. This kind of group- takes away the time limit. For me too- it takes me away from my rural culture- where we do talk. Where my rural accent does not raise an eyebrow. Where we have much bigger and deeper connections. ...
Huh?
DavidG said
Oct 7, 2019
In my early days here- John ran all five boards. And he did a jolly good job. I am a member too of CODA and ACA here. But here on the Alanon board I stick to Alanon, mostly. Alanon Tradition 4 cooperates with AA alone. Because that what was all there was- when the traditions were written. ACA's Tradition 4 cooperates will all other 12 step groups.
And this was a golden opportunity to do this here- to practise unity. I would rarely if ever poach members from one group to another. Let them find their own way- their own preferences.
But more often than now we all embrace double or triple winners!
Sometimes, on the ACA board a member would by-pass the moderator and go straight to John- and he would zap someone. Two times out of three that would have been the right call- but not always. I had a member on the board who was a foundation member of ACoA. 1977. We shared a lot using the private messaging. Things were going well. Then in one posting he reacted badly to someone else- who was out of control. There was no come-back. No explanation asked for. No breathing space. He was gone- he evaporated. I felt like someone had taken a favourite dog out- and a horse- and shot it. And I still feel this way.
After that i made sure I had email or facebook contact with regular members- in case it happened to me- or two them. So today i am still a regular member, and Group Rep of the MIP ACA board. I am a regular member at the ACA chat meeting. The only thing is- currently I am banned from the ACA message board.
Because of my time zone- I could not attend the chat meeting very often- so I began to share on the message board.
I doubt very much- as per the MIP Business Board that Alanon needs to do anything. Us members on MIP Alanon seem to move as a body. There are changes all the time- but they are barely perceptible. In my view, it is called ~growth~ ...
But the ACA group is the new kid on the block. I do think it needs a little help.
MIP ACA is by far the second biggest group here- and it has great potential.
This is exceptional, because except for the ACA group now, all other group s her rely on people coming in from a google search. Or by word of mouth, I expect.
I got pulled up in my ACA group for saying something about Alanon. I said the same thing here- on this thread and no-one complained. They had no reason to.
It is something people regularly say, about AA, about their own tradition- the lot.
So what I am looking for, from the MIP family is actually on the MIP Business Board:
Moderator rights, post deletion etc are handled within the individual boards group conscience.
I see that the admins here have been put under some pressure. I am sure it hasn't been easy. Through my network of contacts, on the ACA board, I have asked for my ban to be lifted. I am asking for the right to defend my place in the group, and to rejoin the membership.
This wasn't planned- it just happened. In my home group we had a different chair each week. If we could be picked the chair for the next meeting, from the current meeting.
The chair got to pick how the meeting was run. A reading- from the daily reader, a topic, or whatever. If here was a slight change that was okay. Everything was conference approved. But inside of that there was a certain amount of leeway. Our local group left a fair bit of time- for personal sharing. But if that dried up there were back-ups... like reading the steps, traditions, and concepts
So if something worked for the group- it became a part of the group culture- the group conscience.
The only time we had a group conscience meeting- we had been meeting at the local school. Some of the members were smokers- and wanted a meeting place where they could smoke at the meeting. So we had conscience meeting and a vote. The smokers won- and we moved into the AA rooms, for our meetings.
The format of the meeting wAS WRITTEN OUT FOR ALL MEMBERS TO FOLLOW AND IT WAS DECIDED WITH A GROUP conscience . OFTEN MEMBERS ASK FOR a group conscience meeting to decide changes in format and they are held.
Thanks David I am sorry to hear this. Glad you found on line meetings
--
I look at traditions one and two- in a practical way. No longer the glassy-ted optimist...
...
Looking at the thread- on meeting dynamics- and a topic like this will bring a round-up of views and opinions- and most of us did not get a lot of this- in our alcoholic families.
I tend to watch and respect the person who starts the thread- kind of like a mini-chair... what I might add- depends how well I know this person...
few boundaries here- greeting time, sharing time and coffee time seems to all roll into one...
but, over time I think we sense where we are, with this- and what is appropriate.
...my nana used to say: make haste slowly. And I know that was not conference approved. So I should say: one day at a time: which says virtually the same thing!
This is a lovely place- and it has a lovely atmosphere. There is a degree of tolerance... I think most of the guidelines come from example...
...
In my experience, there is a reason, a methodology, behind a meeting having structure, format, guidelines, etc. There is also a benefit in wherever I've gone, all over the US -- every meeting I go to, minus a few micro items, is the same. From NYC to LA, from Maine to Florida, Washington to California, there are some minor differences -- but the meeting, is for the most part, the same. I think that's a good thing, but that's just me.
This happened to me about 5 years ago. I mentioned this on the MIP ACA group- and was blocked for saying my own ESH. And the moderators tried to get the admins to ban me completely.This seems more like a dysfunctional family- when mother has a black eye and bruises. You tripped up, didn't you mother? Yes i tripped over in the yard. So- there you are- get on and do your homework. That sort of thing.
This happened to me personally here in my home town- in my Alanon group.
I was taking my daily reader- Hope for Today to meetings. I was not reading from it. I asked if I could do a reading from HFT. I was told that i could not- because it was not conference approved. I was told that my problems was about NUTS. Not Using The Steps. Having been in alanon for years I was sure that NUTS was NOT conference approved.
So I asked politely if we could raise Hope For Today as a conscience issue and discuss the topic. I was told straight up that if I called a conscience meeting all the women would vote against me!
Sad to say- that Alanon group fell over within a few weeks. I think the younger members thought I was wrong- that I did not know what I was doing.
[I would venture to say that this is the kind of thing we pick up from our FOO's.
... "I'll give you something to cry about!"
it sucks, I know. That is why- as a member and group rep. of the MIP ACA group- that members should have the chance to defend themselves. And have a proper group conscience meeting. By personal messaging, on the group business board, or on the MIP Business Board.
Pretty easy to figure out- with a bit of group discussion.
As it appears- a group conscience meeting in NZ may world is a bit different from the USA. More like a business meeting in the USA.
We were small so several folks were doing double duty for trusted servant positions. I was active in a couple other groups, so opted out of trusted service for this group. The treasurer had a medical issue, and long story short, ended up blind - clearly could not do the function any longer. I was asked to step in, and readily agreed. To this point, there were not regular reports for group members which I began, per the manual.
To make a long story short, once the treasurer report became public, it was challenged by members. Decisions on the spending were made by the founder, with no group discussion, conscious, etc. 80% of collected donations were being used to send another member to a variety of conferences, not those that required representation.
As you can imagine, it became a thorn in the side of the group. The founder was unwilling to step back, consider how the group wanted funds used (to help others seeking recovery vs. conference travel) and the group folded. I believe that any time a group steps away from the suggested format/guidelines, there is risk. Those who came before me/us took great care in putting together a detailed service manual so we could all function in a harmonious way, putting principles in front of personalities. My sponsor just kept reminding me that some folks are sicker than others and I should do what works for me.
I've been asked to be a part of starting another group and am not sure if I will. Simply because I'm actively involved in other groups, have some RL (Real Life) service I am committed to and don't want to stretch myself too thin. I will certainly show up and be a member among members, but not too sure beyond that. As always, I'll Pause and Pray before I Proceed and do what I feel called to do if/when necessary.
(((Hugs))) - I too am glad you found MIP and are a member here!
David i believe that HFT was orignally looked upon as ACA literature.nd and was not recognized as alanon approved just as the AA Big book is not recognized
I am not sure why you needed to share this here as these actions are not what most encounter in an alanon meetings . Groups tend to adhere to the traditions and if a problem surfaces they can discuss it based on alanon principles and the Traditions SORRY your group did not. I can see why it folded.
We still use it really... -and Alanon has it's own adult child primer... From Survival to a Recovery. A great stepping stone. A great resource.
...
-- Edited by DavidG on Friday 4th of October 2019 06:00:23 PM
Like I also said -- I think it's a very good thing that all alanon meetings are "the same" (for the most part). They are supposed to be. There are reasons for this.
If a group conscience got "shot down" -- then in my opinion, that is not a legitimate, conference approved meeting. They've gone rouge so to speak, LOL.
While I respectfully disagree with you about the ability to have a proper group conscience here in this forum, I think the point is more about the f2f meeting, and the experience you had. To be perfectly honest, I find this forum far more deviant from conference approved alanon and alanon guidelines and principles than any meeting I attend. Now, that's just my experience. LOL.
I have attended AA Open meetings in Fl, NY and Ca. The meetings between east and west coast were vastly different!
Actually In Alanon all the basics and principals and policies are the same. It is true that the quotes in ODAT and Courage To Change come from all over the universe. I know- that in the middle steps I was afraid to put a foot wrong- [say the wrong thing] -but this stemmed more from my family experience, than from my surroundings, in the rooms. It was a part of my healing.
I am hearing more and more comments around this board- about what people expect from a group. And I like to add my own- sometimes- about this group especially.
And people's experience here- of F2F Alanon comes from all over the globe!
I like it to be heard- and to hear... peoples' own truth.
...
I also feel and believe that my comments about this board, and someone else's comments about this board, or a f2f meeting, are just that -- each person's comments...opinion, perspective, and so on. I agree with you, I think it's a good thing for people to be heard, yes, their own truths. That's why I was surprised at the reaction and commentary I heard here, on this forum, when a group conscience was asked about. For me, a conference approved meeting either follows the guidelines, principles, and format, vis a vis World Services, and the alanon program -- or perhaps the meeting, as a result of a group conscience, had gone "rogue" so to speak. However, if a meeting doesn't follow those things...than for me, that's not a legitimate alanon meeting.
I think the Alanon forum here- is in good heart. The issues arising surround one of our other 12 Step groups, in my view. -D.
I logged in there last night- and was banned. This morning [Monday] I find my post was blocked. However the admins are doing their best- they do a good job. They seem to be dealing with a difficult situation. Be patient.
...
-- Edited by DavidG on Sunday 6th of October 2019 02:48:26 PM
David, why were you banned? If you don't mind me asking. You had a post blocked? What does that mean? What difficult situation? I am unaware of what you are referring to.
That said, I am not speaking to administrators' efforts, commitment, or anything of the like. I am speaking to the fact that what goes on here -- would never occur at any alanon meeting I've gone to. If one person calls for/suggests a group conscious -- it is deplorable in my opinion -- that a couple of other people can sit in judgment over whether or not they feel the subject matter of the suggested group conscious warrants a group conscious...and one person gets to say, no, I don't think that warrants a group conscious...and it doesn't happen. That's not only non alanon...it's the antithesis of alanon! Hence, this is not a conference approved forum. A few bullies get to decide what gets addressed and what doesn't. That's just my opinion.
Now, I don't harp on it. I am only stating it -- and clearly, and once -- to make my point and speak my mind. It's not for discussion purposes. Sorry for the problems David.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 6th of October 2019 05:24:06 PM
I don't want to be a part of any of the discussions. I saw how that is handled here. I only needed to see it once.
Bo,
I was banned for something I said about Alanon.
I was something that any number of us have said, from time to time... ...as a part of our ESH...
So I asked for conscience meeting to discuss this. It is a question of what power do the moderators of the groups have? To protect the safety of the MIP groups.
But it is the members themselves, including the mods, who run the groups.
Thank you very much David.
Regarding your two sentences above...One, good question. Two, if you say so. LOL.
As far as the MIP Al-Anon group area and group conscious, I am not aware of anyone suggesting that ideas, changes, etc. could not be brought forward. I know that anytime anyone has brought an idea to me publicly or via private message, I've encouraged them to post about it to check interest in a group conscious meeting and/or changes to 'things'.
MIP has many members. Some pass through, some stay. Some leave and return and some leave never to return. Those who stay or return must find some value in our group or they would move on. This online group is no different than any other online group, with exception, we have trusted servants as moderators. Every member is welcome to make suggestions, express ideas, etc. When John was still alive, he was the ultimate authority and the 'final answer'. I had no issue with that as he was gracious in what he built and offered to all of us.
I know that MIP has given me a lovely tool for my recovery program. I love that anyone, any where can reach out and post and that most offer ESH in return. I also continue to grow and learn through all shares, formal meetings, here, informal meetings, so it's a win/win for me. I am grateful for what John built and left for us and am humbled to be a member and part of it.
My ESH on Business Meetings & Group Conscious Meetings - I rarely attend business meetings. If I am in a service position, I do as it's requested/required as part of the position. I've had 32+ years of recovery business meetings, and they are not my favorite thing. I will always attend a group conscious meeting IF it is important to my recovery. In both scenarios, I fully understand I will openly accept what the group decides in lieu of my participation. I do truly believe that participation is the key to harmony in recovery, but also respect and understand that participation is optional. Off to watch Sunday Night Football - hang in there David!!
Bo...have picked up your posts around this topic- and your concerns. On the Business Board, first up I used a quote. The whoosh- one of the admins challenged this one. I can still get defensive mode sometimes- flight fright or fight. But I think I held my ground- that one time! Got steady on my feet.
This was apparently a no-no on the Alanon board- because of cross-posting... but we were in a different setting. I see maturity on other members here... ...see the people as a good crowd, with heaps of experience... still a lot to learn, of course.
So I haven't copied and pasted your comment above... after you saw something handled here... This is my comfort zone here...on this group. I don't tend the shake the tree.
But I suggest things have changed here... ...you only have to look at the talk on this topic... ...like everyone else here- and have been in a lot of tricky and difficult situations. That is why I came along to Alanon in the first place. What happens to me mostly now is "a storm in a teacup". Easy first to figure out -step 1... and to sort out [steps 2 thru 10].
We deserve this space in our lives. A space like this, or any group, only works well where everyone pitches in... ...it does not exist, except for us!
David, I hear what you are saying about the people here, what they have to offer, etc. -- and I DO NOT disagree with you. Nothing I've said speaks to that. I've never referred to a specific person on these boards in that type of context -- he said, she said, he did this, she did that, etc. My post(s) strictly and exclusively referred to how something was handled and addressed -- and yes, it was handled and addressed, actually dismissed as I've said, by a couple of people. But that's not about the people necessarily, it's more about the tone, the overall dynamic of the "room" so to speak. It's not about people -- or personalities -- it's about principles. And being that this is not a conference approved forum, and the guidelines of alanon -- in totality -- don't apply, I understand what that means.
That said, I said what I said. I won't say it again. I am not offering it up as, nor am I interested in discussing it. Move on.
Enjoy and have a great day everyone.
But overall- that good old centre was closed down forever. I went there too. I started with a group of 20 people and we passed out with 5. And that was the norm. the fall-out rate was huge.
My point is- was that centre held AA, NA and Alanon meeting- but lots of groups and workshops. This was reflected strongly, of course, in the group culture back in my home town.
I sometimes wondered, in Alanon if everything we did or said was actually conference approved. There were no conscience meetings around this- what worked actually stayed and other stuff was probably discarded. Sadly though, once the dam project was over numbers in Alanon dried up. Two AA groups carry on- with gusto.And our small town also has an NA group.
Fast forward [segue] to about 8 years ago. The CEO of Alanon came to his most southern province- in the world. Rick B. He stood up and spoke twice. Once as CEO, and secondly as "just another member" of Alanon. I was impressed with this. it gave me a really good sense of boundaries between the two roles. And boundaries were something I was hungry for.
If you are still reading this Bo... this is an invisible space. The cross-talk guideline has come through both AA and Alanon- over recent years. I have seen it applied rigidly, across the board- in some instances. I have seen it offer space and safe boundaries- in many meetings.
Maybe I would use phrases like: "let's give this a go". Or," lets see if this works"... and it just filters in... and it sticks around- when it makes sense.
In this group- we must have greeting time, sharing time, and coffee time.
Sometimes, in the middle of a thread, I will kick-back and get to know a member a little better. After all we do share our heart and soul in our Alanon groups. I actually do know some members outside of the group here. But mostly I get to know people here- right in the middle...
...where there are lots of people around- and maybe that is a male thing?
I sometimes call this "coffee time" or maybe even carpark time. When the programme starts to gel. And we realise that we are on the same page- with other people.
Lots of us have a real fear or "rambling on". Or at least i do. Maybe we have had precious little of this- in our lives. This kind of group- takes away the time limit. For me too- it takes me away from my rural culture- where we do talk. Where my rural accent does not raise an eyebrow. Where we have much bigger and deeper connections.
...
Huh?
In my early days here- John ran all five boards. And he did a jolly good job. I am a member too of CODA and ACA here. But here on the Alanon board I stick to Alanon, mostly. Alanon Tradition 4 cooperates with AA alone. Because that what was all there was- when the traditions were written. ACA's Tradition 4 cooperates will all other 12 step groups.
And this was a golden opportunity to do this here- to practise unity. I would rarely if ever poach members from one group to another. Let them find their own way- their own preferences.
But more often than now we all embrace double or triple winners!
Sometimes, on the ACA board a member would by-pass the moderator and go straight to John- and he would zap someone. Two times out of three that would have been the right call- but not always. I had a member on the board who was a foundation member of ACoA. 1977. We shared a lot using the private messaging. Things were going well. Then in one posting he reacted badly to someone else- who was out of control. There was no come-back. No explanation asked for. No breathing space. He was gone- he evaporated. I felt like someone had taken a favourite dog out- and a horse- and shot it. And I still feel this way.
After that i made sure I had email or facebook contact with regular members- in case it happened to me- or two them. So today i am still a regular member, and Group Rep of the MIP ACA board. I am a regular member at the ACA chat meeting. The only thing is- currently I am banned from the ACA message board.
Because of my time zone- I could not attend the chat meeting very often- so I began to share on the message board.
I doubt very much- as per the MIP Business Board that Alanon needs to do anything. Us members on MIP Alanon seem to move as a body. There are changes all the time- but they are barely perceptible. In my view, it is called ~growth~ ...
But the ACA group is the new kid on the block. I do think it needs a little help.
MIP ACA is by far the second biggest group here- and it has great potential.
This is exceptional, because except for the ACA group now, all other group s her rely on people coming in from a google search. Or by word of mouth, I expect.
I got pulled up in my ACA group for saying something about Alanon. I said the same thing here- on this thread and no-one complained. They had no reason to.
It is something people regularly say, about AA, about their own tradition- the lot.
So what I am looking for, from the MIP family is actually on the MIP Business Board:
Moderator rights, post deletion etc are handled within the individual boards group conscience.
I see that the admins here have been put under some pressure. I am sure it hasn't been easy. Through my network of contacts, on the ACA board, I have asked for my ban to be lifted. I am asking for the right to defend my place in the group, and to rejoin the membership.
DavidG.