Sending calm thoughts Bud. I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment on specifics, but it does seem as clear as day to me that the ship is sinking in regards to that business/organisation. I would not feel comfortable about working for no pay when I'm already owed pay because in all my experiences of being owed money, loaning a defaulter more capital--in this case your capital labour--has never remedied the other person's fault. Nigerian scammers work the same human fear; many victims of these frauds have said they continued to send money because of their initial losses. Facing the truth was too frightening. Sometimes we wish so hard for a miracle externally we forget about our own power. We here have been following your thread, and I honestly love the way you have started swimming away from the vortex of that companies sinking. I feel so sorry for you and your colleagues, but if your gut instinct is telling you to get to safety and find new opportunity, listen to it and keep swimming. There will be time to do a post mortem on it later. Logically I doubt a company that has no funds to pay workers has funds to sue for breach of individual contracts particularly when there are likely fraudulent activities emerging. Terrible management style too threatening people back to work. Stay in your zone. Sending support.

Sounds like the company is already bust, you will be low down the list of creditors to be paid. Cut your losses and leave, would be my thoughts

(((Bud))) - breathe! Just breathe! I am sending you thoughts and prayers - you are in a difficult situation and all that you feel is 'normal'...

I am short on time, so will throw this up for you to consider. I used to do a variety of contracts, so this is offered based on my experience.

1. Owner defaulted on original contract when announcing the office/business was closing (first letter).
2. Owner defaulted on original contract when payment for services rendered was not made (assuming a schedule is in place, and it's late based on original contract).
3. If either of the above has happened, the original contract is now null and void. You do have the right to:
- Send a demand letter for payment due for services already rendered.
- Decline attendance without this pay and a new contract/agreement.

I would certainly formulate a letter (to the lawyer who sent the demand vs. the owner - cc if desired) suggesting the above. Use facts (vs. emotion), give supporting documents (first/later letters) and avoid might, should, etc. Short, simple, professional stating your position, your desires, etc.

I don't have all the information, and I offer this to suggest you are not powerless! Just based on what you've shared, the first action the employer/owner took should have voided all agreements with contracted employees. Of course, this assumes your agreement does not have special conditions around business shutdown. I would certainly re-read it carefully and consider a consult with an employment attorney in your state.

Hang in there - you work a great program and are an intelligent gal - don't give away your power....I believe you have more for this situation than you know/are considering! (((Hugs))) - I have to run off to get a vehicle titled/registered - will be back later....As always, take what you like and leave the rest!

a4l-

Thank you so much! I needed to have this mirrored back to me in this way. I am uncomfortable because I've been ignored for over a year and a half about my dysfunctional contract that I had come to learn relies on their actions. It's also possible that the company strategy is to get everyone to resign by being this awful... but most likely it's the disjointed whims of insanity at the helm. The fact that this company feels like a raging A is unhealthy for me... Alanon in all of my affairs.

Money continues to roll in over the next month from insurance payments, so it's possible they can pay... had they only not sent a farewell and we're closed letter without further response, communication, or instruction to disperse and a week later we're all being held to our contracts.

I love your analogy to Nigerian scammers and human fear. This puts it into perspective for me. Also, it helps to know I don't need to process everything before tendering my resignation.

I also love the swimming away, keep on swimming... it bodes well. Sticking with this.

Jitsuka -
Many thanks for your support. They could conceivably recover relatively quickly, depending... or have a growing list of creditors that makes everything not possible. Thank you - stepping away from things is difficult even if it's best... working on this... appreciate fair balance. I do not wish to strap myself under a sinking titanic!

Iamhere - I saw your post after I posted... absorbing and returning in a bit... AWESOME....

Just wanted to send hugs and support! (((((Bud)))))

Take care and look after yourself, god bless

I know many attorneys have a no-cost initial consultation, often on the phone. In your situation, I may try an employment attorney just to allay your sense of being hostage. You can learn your empowering rights in this situation.

It's bad of them to intimidate. What a workforce management technique!

Many thanks PosesandPuppies, Jitsuka, and Jill - all valuable support that helped me do the next right thing,

IamHere -


(((Bud))) - breathe! Just breathe! I am sending you thoughts and prayers - you are in a difficult situation and all that you feel is 'normal'...

"
1. Owner defaulted on original contract when announcing the office/business was closing (first letter).
2. Owner defaulted on original contract when payment for services rendered was not made (assuming a schedule is in place, and it's late based on original contract).
3. If either of the above has happened, the original contract is now null and void. You do have the right to:
- Send a demand letter for payment due for services already rendered.
- Decline attendance without this pay and a new contract/agreement."

Both # 1 and # 2 happened. Yesterday the CEO sent me a photo of checks he would place in the mail. Since my payment formula is partly based on corporate charges, I have no idea if it's accurate. I'm supposed to see the books... I can let these things go... and keep on swimming...

I phoned a lawyer today who hadn't looked at my contract but told me in general, when the owner sent the letter of intent to close, it basically terminated all of the employees. End of story. He said it was nonsense (he used another term) that a week later they issued a notice that employees must fulfill their obligation or send in a resignation. He said I don't owe a resignation because I've already been terminated.

That clarifies things. If they want me back and I want to go back, it will be on my terms as a consult or not at all... my focus is on myself and my new and adventurous - albeit scary - future.

I will have this attorney take a look at the contract and emails tomorrow to be sure I have serenity.

If the corporate lawyer responds to my previous email unfavorably, I hope to be prepared to send her home.

I feel empowered. MIP indeed!!! Many thanks!!!

Yay....for taking back your power! It's so, so easy for me to panic and try to determine the end of my story when 'life' happens! It's with a ton of pausing, prayers and then proceeding that I typically find a sane, rational path forward. More often than not, proceeding includes asking for support, help, input, prayers, etc. WAY TO USE YOUR PROGRAM!!!

Once upon a time, I went through a similar experience....BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front), when I agreed to return, I charged $50/hour, paid weekly, before I departed for the week. I stated exactly how many hours I would work (25) and no more. I was open to less hours as things were winding down. It was refreshing, empowering and a great thing for me at the time as I still had perfectionist and 'holic' tendencies - meaning I was known for 60+ hour work weeks when salaried/executive roles. I also built in a fee if any of the checks bounced.

Boundaries apply for me in all areas of my life....well beyond my alcoholics, family, etc. Your post made my heart smile big - I love it when we advocate for ourselves, using our tools and find the path forward. (((Hugs))) Keep working it girl - clearly, you are worth it!!!

Thanks so much for your quickie IamHere it went a long way!

Sadly, I've learned and practiced to be quick to panic. Still my knee-jerk "go-to". Working on it... in progress.

When the corporate lawyer wrote no one was terminated, it was already 5 days post the owner's good bye and intention to close. No one had received their scheduled paycheck at that time. There were no communications during those 5 days.

Thank you for sharing your story. Like the BLUF and your end result. I was coming to a similar conclusion if they would still like my services. In my contract there is also a clause that refers to state or federal changes that cause actions to be different... then either party can terminate the contract or redraw terms.... so, unbeknownst, my response thus far actually targets this clause.

More will be revealed.

Support and best wishes sent...and, while I am not giving professional advice...speak with an employment attorney...a specialist. Good luck.

I hear you Bud on the 'knee-jerk' - I can really relate....and yes - practice, practice, practice of our tools allows me to freak out for a moment and then truly consider what action can I consider on this day at this time! I am still so proud of you for taking back your power! My heart is still smiling.... (((Hugs)))

Thank you Bo! Very appreciated!


Iamhere - ohhhh those knee jerks are killers! LOL Well, I can say if you have to consult a lawyer, consult a good one. If you consult a good one, maybe also one that is good looking and single. If he's a good one, single, and handsome, also then one who didn't rake me over the coals for money. I'm satisfied that I've been terminated and don't owe a resignation letter. If they would like services, a new and better contract can be drawn. In the meantime, I'm swimming .... looking for work and trying to listen to where my HP wants me to be.

Many thanks for the amazing support!!!

Big hugs bud so glad to hear that things are moving the in the right direction!!!

So the CEO responded to the email.

This feels so crazy.

He twisted my message into something else and told me this is what he would deliver to the owner and wished me all the best. I suspect there is value if he can make it like I've resigned over the truth of their termination. I didn't ask for much, I want a valid contract. I haven't had one in over 11/2 years there. I chased and chased after administrator after administrator... apparently it was always someone else's job. I was told it was going to be the new CEO's job. When he came on board, he said he only wanted to talk about things that were working. The other day he mentioned that I had been working with the corporate lawyer on my contract and I corrected him to say I've never had a conversation with her and I was told he was my contact person for this. He resigned last week and is finishing his obligatory 60 days.

His last response crazy triggered me. Insanity doesn't feel good and I suppose the good news is that it's not supposed to. I'm reminding myself this validates my decisions as opposed to pretending I have a reasonable contract or pretending that I hadn't been terminated. I understand that when this set of emotions pass, I can feel better and get focused for generating an income. I didn't sleep well last night. I lay awake feeling sad about the break up, job loss, and feeling lonely at the time of my daughter's wedding. They all are bonded with ties of insanity. They have passed, are passing, and are soon to pass. I hope to keep stepping forward one healthy choice at a time.

I will contact my lawyer for an opinion how to handle the CEO's email.

I cannot thank everyone enough for the emotional support.

Blessings, Bud--

You've gotten what seems to me to be excellent, very helpful ESH and advice here. I have nothing to add.

Thanks to you for posting and all who have responded--it's been wonderful to watch.

The only thing I can offer is--when one is swimming, it is perfectly acceptable, nay even optimum, to flip over on one's back to float and watch the clouds pass by every now and then, while recounting one's assets and blessings.

More Blessings,
Temple

Love that response Temple!!! So, so true! (((Bud))) - I will again remind you to breathe. I am certain your lawyer will help you formulate a response, if one is necessary. Twisted words are nothing more than 'alternative facts' and just like in recovery, we have choices if/when we respond or not at all.

You've got this!! Enjoy your Friday, keep swimming and my prayers and thoughts continue your way....I believe we are witnesses to the many miracles happening all around us each/every day...

Thank you Temple and this helps because I needed to give myself permission and that - not only is it acceptable - but optimal to float. (I don't really fancy thoughts of marathoning treading water)

I'm anxious as I wait for the lawyer.

Thank you Iamhere - love this: "Twisted words are nothing more than 'alternative facts' and just like in recovery, we have choices if/when we respond or not at all."

Sitting tight...

... actually going to do something productive and something nurturing.

I have my own work turmoil issue The company worked for lost the contract Another company cane in and hired most of us. Since then problems with payroll. Last week Imdid not get paid When the other company.list their contract they asked people to resign. Asking people to.resign is one way to not have to pay unemployment Then the new company doesnt pay pauroll It is one rollwrcoasterbof dysfunction. Meantime there is plenty of dysfunction already I do not live the way I used to. I gave money in the bank. Nevertheless I have to be careful not to overextend myself I feel for you. My initial reaction was ky normal knee jerk one and one if fear and catastrophe Now it is calmer because I am at a point in al.anon where I stopped trying to figure out insanity In theory after 90 days with this new company I get a bonus. I.am going to hold out for the bonus Meanwhile I have to say I am grateful for a program. Without a program I.woukd be trying to figure out insanity and I know where that gets me I know how hard it us to go to self care. It is extremely difficult for me when I.am in fear mode so I have to get of fear mode. Then I have to get into.asoothe mode. Soothe mode is self care. It is being nice to myself rather than beat myself up I find being in soothe mode helps me ti respond rather than react Maresie

Thank you Maresie and good to see your post.

I agree - they terminated all of the employees, then stated it didn't happen and we can work without guarantee of pay or resign. There is tons in it for them to work it this way, just as you suggest.

I can't tell if they're consolidating and continuing or if they're finishing and closing everything. They may not know either. If they were planning to continue, I may have tried to stay.... since I don't know, I take it that I need to listen closely to my HP for guidance.

Like you, I'm ok today and need to be very careful until I generate a solid income again. My daughter's wedding is this coming Saturday... and she's upset because I won't commit to paying for or contributing to the open bar. I've already paid for more than what I initially agreed to. She's acting cold and I can't help that.

You can hold out for your bonus Maresie! Cheering you on!

Like you I have more than one job. The job with the new contract has overtime but it comes with the hitch that the po payroll is all over the place. I am investing in my health and will have a big dental bill coming so I.have to stash money away. I hope when this wedding is over the pressure will lift for you Weddings are incredibly stressful. I remember going to a wedding decades ago.and being triggered Boundaries are a constant topic for me. Boundaries at work and boundaries at home. I know I set up.imposdibke expectations f ki r myself. One was to be naive and thinn.this new contract would work out . I have to reassess my situation I am holding out that the wedding will be a big success. That doesnt mean there will not be plenty to process My idealism is part of ny.victimization

Thank you for your good wishes Maresie. Somehow I am now in a better place about things... not that any of the events changed, it's just too draining to focus on it anymore. Thanks to MIP and Alanon, I feel calm, happy, excited and will not allow these precious moments to be disturbed with negativity or other people's crazy. Wish I could have done this sooner, but I'm here now...

Regarding my workplace, more was revealed and the owner is trying to sell. I pray for my HP to move me to where he wants me to be.

Sending you lots of positive thoughts and prayers for your work situation.

I spent 5 years working a job where it was uphill all the way, hours. Conditions, scenarios Then one of the people I.was closest to committed suicide (after I had left) Really work is a long hard slog.for me As I have more than one source of income my.firsr response these days is to detach and think.about my options The bonus turns out to be an empty promise. I have also by now after decades in the w ki workplace given up trying to work out why certain companies behave dysfunctionally. I hope you can network out. Sone people get a rise in iukking the rug out from under people.

Dear (((Bud)))) I know what it is like being on the "business/job" Titanic...My place just closed..Thank God they are honorable people and I got paid for every hour I was there PLUS they let me take home all my computer equip..and I'm talking about a new computer, new monitor, printer , accessories...I'm talking about $1500 worth of equipment.....but yea, you are on the Titanic that is going down and trust me: You will not be high priority on the list of creditors...IRS and state gets them first...I'm glad you see this and are detaching...and I agree with one poster who said that they are highly unlikely to sue anyone for breach of contract when THEY have stuff, most likely, they don't want coming out....I also support those who encouraged you to stay in your zone....take care of you.......I feel for ya...financial fear is the worst...I know...I lost my job I loved , we finally bellied up Aug 30th.....they say the WORST stressors are death/divorce/job loss...those are the worst....your HP will , if you let him/her, bring about something better for you if you let go and let HP....if it were me, I would cut my losses and go!!! SENDING LOADS of support: Rosie

Good to see you Mamalioness! thank you for your share and encouraging words. I had cut my losses. It has been a month of loss in other areas of my life as well. Picking up the pieces that I could find and taking the next right step. Sending prayers and positive thoughts to your situation and I trust your HP is moving you to a better place. (not that it makes the transition easier)

((((((((((((((((bud))))))))))))))))) I know I went AWOL for a while, but you and some others were in my heart and prayers for sure........yea, you and me and our job issues....hand in hand we WILL overcome....I just gotta believe that my HP is moving ME to a better place, tho I loved the people I worked for..they treated me like a queen...when I cleaned out my office, I LITERALLY cleaned it out....expensive high end computer...VERY nice HP printer..HUGE monitor and all the accessories, filled the back end of my SUV...I cried as I carried out each item and the loving memories they made me think of.....so it was a devestating loss, not just financially , (1/2 of my income---poof---gone) but the men I worked for, I absolutely loved them.....so yea, it was horrible..........and my heart goes out to you with your job....it sucks being in the "inbetween" (hallway) stage...Bless your heart...Sending you BIG "find a good place" HUGS.....and LOADS of prayers for you to find your deliverence FAST........HUGS xoxo