Quick question and this may trigger those who are sensitive to talk about drinking and stupid stuff that goes along with it.
So, my bf and I were out with friends for dinner and lots of pool day drinking yesterday. He and I had a very drunk talk about our relationship and it didn't go the way I wanted, of course. You know, being drunk and all. He basically said that he didn't love me and that he didn't see himself ever falling in love again due to his past (from what I can tell it's just him being burned in relationships and cheated on, etc).
Without getting into crazy details, I will say that today he's been acting like a man in love. Doting on me, praising me, paying me compliments that seemed like he might be trying too hard, lol. Not that he didn't do those things before but today I felt like he was trying very hard. We didn't talk about the conversation because I was just too burnt out to do so. Yet, he made me feel so loved and cared for today, that I felt like it was sending me mixed messages.
I think my question here is: how much of what is said during an alcohol laden conversation can be taken as truth. All I know is that my XAH was such a great liar and I took everything he said as truth even when he was drunk. So, now I'm wondering if it was just drunk speak or if what people say when they're drunk should be taken as somewhat wrapped in truth?
SunnyFrogs said
Jul 8, 2019
Some people say that when someone is drunk their inhibitions are lowered and the truth comes out.I don't believe that,otherwise I would really be a hot,sexy dancer like I once claimed and tried to prove while drunk.
Aloha said
Jul 8, 2019
Alcohol has no redeeming qualities. It's not a truth-serum.
I think our dual-members can probably provide better insight on this.
My question to you is how is it helping you to focus "out there"? What part of you is suddenly not enough if what he said was true or not true? Why are you putting significance on his actions and words? What are you doing to take care of yourself and be centered and not allow a persons behaviors to sway how you feel? Where is your HP in this?
SerenityRUS said
Jul 8, 2019
I am with Aloha, although it does give some food for thought. Alcohol gives people false courage and that's why they regret what they say after the fact.
It sounds more along the lines of emotional unavailability to me. When I find myself in these situations that I go to the steps. It sounds like a good opportunity to look at something along the lines of past history that you have with emotionally unavailability with men in general. For me I had to look at how I really am not as available as I like to believe I am. If you attract what you put out as the saying goes, where was I holding back.
Based upon my experience with relationships I am not as all in as my boyfriend is, I don't need to be drunk to tell him that as we have that these discussions and it's not him .. it's me. I have a lot of fear, anger and self esteem issues to work through in regards to relationships in general which all come down to trusting myself and my HP. I love him to the best of my ability and I am more open to and with him as a result of that, I still am guarded when it comes to all in. He's willing to have patience as I work through those feelings.
I know this kind of mirrored your relationship with the last boyfriend in terms of you wanted something he wasn't able to give I guess the question is exactly what Aloha said, .. where are you in this.
He's going to do what he's going to do .. where are you and is it enough?
S :)
Jill said
Jul 8, 2019
Oh I love Aloha's "Alcohol has no redeeming qualities".
You have received ESH that rings true for my experience. Long term behavior tells me more than words.Hearing he doesn't love you had to be very difficult for you.
All the best to you as you process this.
Lyne said
Jul 8, 2019
My A seems to overdo things when she feels guilty and is then trying to prove how much she loves me and how devoted she is. It never lasts because the alcoholic behavior returns. Its a merry-go-round and there is even a book or pamphlet about it. I try to take everything with a grain of salt, have no expectations, and really, how can I ever trust a liar who is not working a program? Lyne
sad_dog_mommy said
Jul 8, 2019
I believe that actions speak louder than words. If his behavior is loving and you feel safe and cared for that is a good thing! Maybe he is caught up by the words 'in love'? Maybe he doesn't really know what love is? Enjoy yourself but please do not put yourself in a position where you are afraid to express your (loving) feelings. No one wants to walk on eggshells.
((( hug )))
Bo said
Jul 8, 2019
This is like trying to answer "which came first, the chicken or the egg" -- both having validity, some truth, some flawed and fallacious aspects, and so on and so on and so on.
That said, nobody here knows your bf...only you do, and you know him better than anyone else inside this context. So, now, add alcohol to the mix and what do we get? Who knows. What's ironic is that you can answer this question about you. You know what you said, whether you meant it or not, what you feel, think, etc., about whatever the statement or topic was. In reality, maybe you don't know, maybe you haven't figured it out yet...but...YOU know YOU. So, how can WE answer this for someone else? The reality is...WE CAN'T...next question...how can YOU answer this for someone else...and the reality is...YOU CAN'T, with certainty, definitiveness, fact, etc.
Yes, we all know people loosen up when drunk, lose their inhibitions, are more "free" and so on. I get that. But that doesn't mean it is all fact, truth. Have I ever said anything when drunk that I truly didn't mean? Absolutely. There is a dynamic that is unquantifiable, can't be measured, so we are left with the enigmatic, riddle-laden, how can we answer.
That's not the "worst" part...the worst part is the unknown and unanswerable causes us to start -- analyzing, hypothesizing, formulating, trying to figure out, search, have a hunger for, and more...and try to find the answer. What do we say in alanon about the alcoholic -- the more you try and figure out this disease and the alcoholic, the more you drive yourself crazy!
So, what does all this mean...outside the scientific, quantifiable, measurable, factual context...in my experience...YES, there is some truth to what is said when someone is drunk. It almost doesn't matter if it's 1% or 100%...why? Because 1% is still reflective of a mindset, a methodology, a frame of mind. 1% still enough for someone to take a position. Sometimes, some subjects, some decisions...it may take a person 100% in order to make a decision and have a certain stance on something. Or, at least they think it might. In business, in life, some people, if they have 1% doubt the answer is no. For others, if they have 1% doubt, they are OK with it and go ahead anyway. There is a thought-process there -- is it irrevocable, irreversible, unalterable? How deep can you go on this? LOL.
So my answer, based upon my experience, is YES, there is truth to what is said when drunk. How much truth? That is unanswerable for the most part, in a realistic, practical application, living life every day sense. However, what's important to understand in my experience is that even 1% truth can be reflective of a person's mindset.
I also wouldn't put too much credence in the "extra" behavior vis a vis seemed to be trying to hard. Again, figuring out what someone else is doing, thinking, feeling, their motives, reasoning, etc., and especially whether or not it means anything at all, is a fallacious exercise.
tiredtonite said
Jul 8, 2019
Well the words he said while drinking are significant to you, otherwise you would not have raised this topic. So now maybe there is this elephant in the middle of the room that can be danced around or acknowledged. The choice is yours of course. You really don't need to guess if his words were influenced by alcohol, you can simply ask him what possibilities he is open to concerning you. If he's vehemently opposed to remarrying and you are more of a person who never says never, you will at least know where he stands. Then you can make decisions about this relationship based on an honest and frank discussion. You can then decide if something is a deal breaker. (((hugs)) TT
SerenityRUS said
Jul 8, 2019
TT brought up such an interesting thought .. why is it when I hear something I hear what I want to hear or I hear it with the intention of I'm going to change that person's mind.
I really need to hear what they are saying. I can even go back to my X many years before we even got married .. he wanted out of the relationship and I did not listen. I figured I would change his mind. That happened short term however the relationship itself wasn't something I really wanted based upon what either of us were putting into it. My boyfriend has to make the decision is what I am offering enough for him today. Marriage is not on the table.
So if this is a topic that he's said to you he's not interested in marriage .. that could change .. I wouldn't base my entire relationship around that fact it might change .. TT is spot on .. is it a deal breaker for you. You are the only one who has to answer that question and there's no JADE'ing involved because you are the only one who has to live with the outcome of that choice.
It took a long time for me to believe people when they said something and now I believe who they show me they are, it certainly doesn't make them bad people .. it just means we are on two totally different life paths and that's ok.
S :)
Aloha said
Jul 8, 2019
Love the points being made.
I've been practicing a lot lately taking people at their word. If they say they like/don't like something, I'll believe them. Circumstances don't factor in, really. I don't say to myself "well, he was angry, or he was drunk, or she was having a bad day..."
I know some people will say "but what if that person is being dishonest?" Well, then, I'll know they were dishonest when the time comes. I have no control over that.
I find when I do this it puts the responsibility of that person's words back in their laps. If they say "don't worry about it, I've got it." then I believe them. If they get upset with me because I didn't read their minds when what they were really trying to say was "fine, I'll take care of it but I'd rather you do it" they only have themselves to blame for not being truthful to begin with.
Long and short of it is yes, none of us are mind-readers. If we want to know what someone meant by something, we should ask instead of guessing and assuming. If they lie about their meaning, they only have themselves to blame for the resulting consequences of their dishonesty.
Iamhere said
Jul 8, 2019
Well.....my two cents - as always, take what you like and leave the rest. I always, always listen for intent from others, under the influence or not. Words do matter always and speaking from experience, alcohol can give one the courage to speak frankly, directly and from the heart.
As far as, "he is acting like a man in love" - this is where WE get into trouble! How each of us define love, care, respect, etc. is different. Just because one is doing extra things for another, doesn't mean anything more than he's doing extra things. Being attentive, engaged, kind, considerate, helpful, cheerful, etc. does not equal the same to one as another. Heck - if one is overly 'doing it' towards me, my first inclination is to wonder what they will be asking for or what have they done (one crazy consequence in my brain from living with this disease)....
What my sponsor and recovery suggests is stay present! Enjoy whatever is happening. Live life today for today with unconditional acceptance. Don't read more or less into anything - don't project. I can tell you that I have made my mind up that I will never marry again, assuming I outlive my AH. That doesn't mean I won't date, like, love another but I know deep down I will never marry again.
I suspect that for whatever reason, he's not willing to be/fall in love again. That doesn't mean he won't date, like, care, focus, etc. on someone. It's taken me a long time in life to realize that we all have different dreams, wants, plans, etc. I do get into trouble when I expect my definitions and values to apply to others, as it's just not realistic! I also get into more trouble when I expect that I can change another by my words, actions, deeds, etc. You have every right to seek clarification - I know I am one who prefers informed decision making!
I also agree with what's been shared...where is your HP in all this? For my recovery, I have to be really mindful of my expectations in another as well as my tendency to become attached to another in an unhealthy way. Only you can answer if his words affect you, your feelings, etc. Today, I try to love and accept others unconditionally and trust my HP and recovery to lead me where I need to go....
You got this B - you really, really do!
SerenityRUS said
Jul 8, 2019
Aloha .. I got a giggle out of your post because my youngest kid has gotten a few lessons over the past year about mean what you say .. say what you mean. Last year: honey do you want to go see the fire works this year? No mom it's really not a big deal. Hey for me I'm off the hook and no skin off my nose I'll avoid crowds and people over indulging. Fire works done and next day .. mom .. I'm sad we didn't go to the fireworks. Me .. dude next time say what you mean. Lol. Fast forward to this year .. mom where are we going to watch fireworks. Boyfriend did the research and I let him lol .. found a great place to go and we had a blast even threw in dinner. This isn't the only time my youngest has backed himself into a corner I'm not going into crowds with a moody hormonal 15 year old lol. We had a blast and know next year how to do it right for us all. So new family tradition. I also got some amazing pictures. So not sorry. This is life 101 .. say what you mean and ask for what you want. :)
andromeda said
Jul 8, 2019
Thank you all for the feedback and the reminder to bring my HP into this and to ask myself what I want. I know I don't want to get married. I just bought my house and I plan on staying here for a few years enjoying my single life and dating the man I love (or maybe not, lol).
If I'm honest: this man is a wonderful partner and we are extremely compatible almost to the point where we both have admitted that this is new to both of us. I have realized that each partner I've chosen there was a different kind of love but many times it was loving the idea of the person because I was trying to fulfill a need: something that was missing.
There is nothing missing in my life today. My current bf.....I truly just adore him and love him for who he is. I never feel like I'm missing anything or like there is a connection missing or a hole that I'm trying to fill.
So, despite our drunk conversation the other night, I am having trouble reconciling his actions vs his words. And, you all are right because I have to stop trying to read into his behaviors and I need to let it go. And, like Serenity said, I really need to listen to what people say but to be honest, I was quite drunk and I don't remember every word that was shared, either. So, who am I to judge or project at this point?
And, I already know I can't define love for someone else. We all experience life and love in very individual ways. I'm trying to be mindful of that and respectful of his opinions. At some point, I might have to make a decision to get more clarity or honesty from him and that will definitely be a conversation to be had when SOBER. One thing I do know, is that I'm learning so much through this relationship about what I need, about how to give love without the expected return, and how to enjoy living life one day at a time. I truly don't have any desire to marry, to live with a man, or to blend families, etc right now. My life is pretty dang good and I am happy. If things don't work out, I know that he will just be another person on my path who taught me more about ME and about how I interact with those around me.
Bo said
Jul 9, 2019
Such amazing awareness!!! Thanks!
Remember, intentions and about $5 gets you a fancy drink at Starbucks. Words, and $10 gets you a racing form. LOL.
Everything means little to nothing...other than actions. Not actions today, not actions after a fight. Not even actions on your birthday or anniversary. It's the every day, day to day, normal, regular, for no reason actions. It's the actions that are innate. It's the actions that are visceral. It's the true, authentic, genuine actions.
As a very wise man once said...when it comes to men...don't pay any attention to what they say...just watch what they do.
Thanks again for your last post...again, such amazing awareness, self-discovery, insight, and so much more.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 9th of July 2019 04:36:36 PM
2HP said
Jul 9, 2019
While it did not work the same for me, I am happy for the fun and happiness YOU get out of drinking and drunken relationships. In my case, it brought me to my knees in prayer... and crawling into Al-anon meetings...
PosiesandPuppies said
Jul 9, 2019
I really loved everyone's ESH on this thread! Thank you Andromeda for posting, and thank you all for sharing!
Iamhere said
Jul 9, 2019
(((B))) - love your follow-up! It's so, so true that each person we encounter on our journey is here to teach us more about ourselves! I've always been one who keeps an eye on actions and I do believe often that actions speak louder than words. And then - there was good ole Joel Osteen one morning who reminded any/all who were listening that Faith is contrary to all we've been taught about words and actions. We are asked to believe in a God of our understanding whom we can't 'see' directly. We are asked to believe when there is a lack of direct communication and lack of direct behaviors to witness. So - I am taking some more time on this whole concept! Where I am, just for today, is that both have meaning for me but neither controls me, defines me or affects my attitudes and emotions unless I allow that to happen.
Keep doing you - you got this!
Bo said
Jul 9, 2019
Andromeda...just a follow up...I just got off the phone with that very wise man...and what an honor and privilege it is to have him in my life...so...he clarified what he actually said...it was advice he gave to his daughter when she was about 25 years old...he said he gave her the advice when she was 17, when she was 21, 22, and then again at 25...each time she was "struggling" or having an issue in her relationship...and he gave her the advice several more time throughout her life...and his advice was...
"When it comes to men...don't pay any attention to anything they say...just watch what they do."
He went on to tell me what what a man does, every single day, day in and day out, how he treats you, how he treats people -- a friend, a client, a stranger, and a waiter/waitress -- what he does, innately, for no reason, automatically, the regular things he does, normally...that is "who" he "is" -- at his core. That is the real person, who they are.
I remember just a little tidbit of something that came up when I was talking to my mother once. We were talking about my father and "who" my father "is" -- at his core. One little thing she told me was that my father opened the door (the car door, the door to the restaurant, etc.) for her on their first date...and he did it every single time thereafter...for the next 52 years now...and he still does...to this day.
Not that it applies here, to you, or your situation...but for me...it always worked. The wise man gave me that very same advice, word for word, and said I should live that when it comes to women, how I treat them, who I am, at my core, etc. He said that's who I should strive to be...how I should live my life.
I have.
Keep up the amazing awareness!!! It really touched, moved, and inspired me!!!
Mattie said
Jul 9, 2019
I remember a similar talk with my ex-husband early in our relationship. He was quite drunk and, surprisingly, rather than being friendly but reserved, as he was in normal life, he was being gushy and romantic and saying how much I meant to him. I thought, "Which is the real him, the reserved one or the romantic one?"
In our case, I should have done as Bo directed and looked at what he was doing, not what he was saying. Because the real him was the drunk one.
You know your own situation best. But I think maybe a third dimension is to think about whether being drunk is a vital part of him too. I would have said it wasn't, about my ex-husband - until I got to know him a lot better. Then I realized that the real part of him that had been exposed that one time was the part that drinks until his personality changes. That was the part that stuck around. Again, you will know whether or not to look out for this - just saying what was true in our case.
andromeda said
Jul 9, 2019
Mattie, we do drink and, on the weekends, we do sometimes get drunk. That includes me too. But, during the week we're both very health conscious and we are responsible with our drinking and in our lives. I've been watching this from the very beginning with him since I'm so sensitive to it. I've learned to accept that there are some folks out there who can drink and who can even get drunk and NOT be alcoholics. But, even if he was, I'd still be able to use program tools. Lots of choices I can make.
I will say that I was going to wait to talk to him until after we get back from a vacation we're taking on the 20th. But, tonight he came over and I wasn't really feeling connected to him. Not because of him, but because of what was going on in my mind. I hate to say this but if we talk sooner and he truly reveals he isn't capable of love EVER, I will want to end things and we have friends we're traveling with, etc and I still need him to pay me for his share, haha. So, I have some decisions to make.
Bo said
Jul 9, 2019
Excellent insight and perspective Mattie...thank you so very much for that!!! It is very thought-provoking and enlightening.
canadianguy said
Jul 10, 2019
I am a bit on the other side of the fence on this one, I guess....
In my experience, and particularly with those of us who are NOT alcoholic, I DO believe that alcohol can sometimes be a "truth serum", and people often say what they cannot say in sobriety when they have too many walls up.
Regardless, it sounds to me like you really like this guy, and the feeling appears to be mutual, so why not have a (sober) re-creation of the conversation, where the two of you can talk it out, like grown-ups?
Hugs
Tom
andromeda said
Jul 10, 2019
Tom, I actually agree with you because alcohol is definitely a truth serum for me, anyway. And, yes, I do really like this guy and he seems quite fond of me. I am in no rush to marry or live with a man so I'm going to wait a few weeks and see how I feel and eventually have a brand new sober talk with him about 'us'. Thankfully I am a patient person: both with myself and with others so I'm letting things unfold.
Aloha said
Jul 11, 2019
My exAH would lie through his teeth, drunk or sober. Alcoholism does not a truth-teller make.
Just my personal experience. Take what you like and leave the rest.
andromeda said
Jul 11, 2019
Aloha, that was the case with my XAH too. He was a great liar when he was sober. I honestly believed him for most of our marriage. I still try to trust people though and take them at their word. Maybe someday I'll learn.
Hi everyone!
Quick question and this may trigger those who are sensitive to talk about drinking and stupid stuff that goes along with it.
So, my bf and I were out with friends for dinner and lots of pool day drinking yesterday. He and I had a very drunk talk about our relationship and it didn't go the way I wanted, of course. You know, being drunk and all. He basically said that he didn't love me and that he didn't see himself ever falling in love again due to his past (from what I can tell it's just him being burned in relationships and cheated on, etc).
Without getting into crazy details, I will say that today he's been acting like a man in love. Doting on me, praising me, paying me compliments that seemed like he might be trying too hard, lol. Not that he didn't do those things before but today I felt like he was trying very hard. We didn't talk about the conversation because I was just too burnt out to do so. Yet, he made me feel so loved and cared for today, that I felt like it was sending me mixed messages.
I think my question here is: how much of what is said during an alcohol laden conversation can be taken as truth. All I know is that my XAH was such a great liar and I took everything he said as truth even when he was drunk. So, now I'm wondering if it was just drunk speak or if what people say when they're drunk should be taken as somewhat wrapped in truth?
I think our dual-members can probably provide better insight on this.
My question to you is how is it helping you to focus "out there"? What part of you is suddenly not enough if what he said was true or not true? Why are you putting significance on his actions and words? What are you doing to take care of yourself and be centered and not allow a persons behaviors to sway how you feel? Where is your HP in this?
It sounds more along the lines of emotional unavailability to me. When I find myself in these situations that I go to the steps. It sounds like a good opportunity to look at something along the lines of past history that you have with emotionally unavailability with men in general. For me I had to look at how I really am not as available as I like to believe I am. If you attract what you put out as the saying goes, where was I holding back.
Based upon my experience with relationships I am not as all in as my boyfriend is, I don't need to be drunk to tell him that as we have that these discussions and it's not him .. it's me. I have a lot of fear, anger and self esteem issues to work through in regards to relationships in general which all come down to trusting myself and my HP. I love him to the best of my ability and I am more open to and with him as a result of that, I still am guarded when it comes to all in. He's willing to have patience as I work through those feelings.
I know this kind of mirrored your relationship with the last boyfriend in terms of you wanted something he wasn't able to give I guess the question is exactly what Aloha said, .. where are you in this.
He's going to do what he's going to do .. where are you and is it enough?
S :)
You have received ESH that rings true for my experience. Long term behavior tells me more than words.Hearing he doesn't love you had to be very difficult for you.
All the best to you as you process this.
((( hug )))
That said, nobody here knows your bf...only you do, and you know him better than anyone else inside this context. So, now, add alcohol to the mix and what do we get? Who knows. What's ironic is that you can answer this question about you. You know what you said, whether you meant it or not, what you feel, think, etc., about whatever the statement or topic was. In reality, maybe you don't know, maybe you haven't figured it out yet...but...YOU know YOU. So, how can WE answer this for someone else? The reality is...WE CAN'T...next question...how can YOU answer this for someone else...and the reality is...YOU CAN'T, with certainty, definitiveness, fact, etc.
Yes, we all know people loosen up when drunk, lose their inhibitions, are more "free" and so on. I get that. But that doesn't mean it is all fact, truth. Have I ever said anything when drunk that I truly didn't mean? Absolutely. There is a dynamic that is unquantifiable, can't be measured, so we are left with the enigmatic, riddle-laden, how can we answer.
That's not the "worst" part...the worst part is the unknown and unanswerable causes us to start -- analyzing, hypothesizing, formulating, trying to figure out, search, have a hunger for, and more...and try to find the answer. What do we say in alanon about the alcoholic -- the more you try and figure out this disease and the alcoholic, the more you drive yourself crazy!
So, what does all this mean...outside the scientific, quantifiable, measurable, factual context...in my experience...YES, there is some truth to what is said when someone is drunk. It almost doesn't matter if it's 1% or 100%...why? Because 1% is still reflective of a mindset, a methodology, a frame of mind. 1% still enough for someone to take a position. Sometimes, some subjects, some decisions...it may take a person 100% in order to make a decision and have a certain stance on something. Or, at least they think it might. In business, in life, some people, if they have 1% doubt the answer is no. For others, if they have 1% doubt, they are OK with it and go ahead anyway. There is a thought-process there -- is it irrevocable, irreversible, unalterable? How deep can you go on this? LOL.
So my answer, based upon my experience, is YES, there is truth to what is said when drunk. How much truth? That is unanswerable for the most part, in a realistic, practical application, living life every day sense. However, what's important to understand in my experience is that even 1% truth can be reflective of a person's mindset.
I also wouldn't put too much credence in the "extra" behavior vis a vis seemed to be trying to hard. Again, figuring out what someone else is doing, thinking, feeling, their motives, reasoning, etc., and especially whether or not it means anything at all, is a fallacious exercise.
Well the words he said while drinking are significant to you, otherwise you would not have raised this topic. So now maybe there is this elephant in the middle of the room that can be danced around or acknowledged. The choice is yours of course. You really don't need to guess if his words were influenced by alcohol, you can simply ask him what possibilities he is open to concerning you. If he's vehemently opposed to remarrying and you are more of a person who never says never, you will at least know where he stands. Then you can make decisions about this relationship based on an honest and frank discussion. You can then decide if something is a deal breaker. (((hugs)) TT
I really need to hear what they are saying. I can even go back to my X many years before we even got married .. he wanted out of the relationship and I did not listen. I figured I would change his mind. That happened short term however the relationship itself wasn't something I really wanted based upon what either of us were putting into it. My boyfriend has to make the decision is what I am offering enough for him today. Marriage is not on the table.
So if this is a topic that he's said to you he's not interested in marriage .. that could change .. I wouldn't base my entire relationship around that fact it might change .. TT is spot on .. is it a deal breaker for you. You are the only one who has to answer that question and there's no JADE'ing involved because you are the only one who has to live with the outcome of that choice.
It took a long time for me to believe people when they said something and now I believe who they show me they are, it certainly doesn't make them bad people .. it just means we are on two totally different life paths and that's ok.
S :)
I've been practicing a lot lately taking people at their word. If they say they like/don't like something, I'll believe them. Circumstances don't factor in, really. I don't say to myself "well, he was angry, or he was drunk, or she was having a bad day..."
I know some people will say "but what if that person is being dishonest?" Well, then, I'll know they were dishonest when the time comes. I have no control over that.
I find when I do this it puts the responsibility of that person's words back in their laps. If they say "don't worry about it, I've got it." then I believe them. If they get upset with me because I didn't read their minds when what they were really trying to say was "fine, I'll take care of it but I'd rather you do it" they only have themselves to blame for not being truthful to begin with.
Long and short of it is yes, none of us are mind-readers. If we want to know what someone meant by something, we should ask instead of guessing and assuming. If they lie about their meaning, they only have themselves to blame for the resulting consequences of their dishonesty.
As far as, "he is acting like a man in love" - this is where WE get into trouble! How each of us define love, care, respect, etc. is different. Just because one is doing extra things for another, doesn't mean anything more than he's doing extra things. Being attentive, engaged, kind, considerate, helpful, cheerful, etc. does not equal the same to one as another. Heck - if one is overly 'doing it' towards me, my first inclination is to wonder what they will be asking for or what have they done (one crazy consequence in my brain from living with this disease)....
What my sponsor and recovery suggests is stay present! Enjoy whatever is happening. Live life today for today with unconditional acceptance. Don't read more or less into anything - don't project. I can tell you that I have made my mind up that I will never marry again, assuming I outlive my AH. That doesn't mean I won't date, like, love another but I know deep down I will never marry again.
I suspect that for whatever reason, he's not willing to be/fall in love again. That doesn't mean he won't date, like, care, focus, etc. on someone. It's taken me a long time in life to realize that we all have different dreams, wants, plans, etc. I do get into trouble when I expect my definitions and values to apply to others, as it's just not realistic! I also get into more trouble when I expect that I can change another by my words, actions, deeds, etc. You have every right to seek clarification - I know I am one who prefers informed decision making!
I also agree with what's been shared...where is your HP in all this? For my recovery, I have to be really mindful of my expectations in another as well as my tendency to become attached to another in an unhealthy way. Only you can answer if his words affect you, your feelings, etc. Today, I try to love and accept others unconditionally and trust my HP and recovery to lead me where I need to go....
You got this B - you really, really do!
If I'm honest: this man is a wonderful partner and we are extremely compatible almost to the point where we both have admitted that this is new to both of us. I have realized that each partner I've chosen there was a different kind of love but many times it was loving the idea of the person because I was trying to fulfill a need: something that was missing.
There is nothing missing in my life today. My current bf.....I truly just adore him and love him for who he is. I never feel like I'm missing anything or like there is a connection missing or a hole that I'm trying to fill.
So, despite our drunk conversation the other night, I am having trouble reconciling his actions vs his words. And, you all are right because I have to stop trying to read into his behaviors and I need to let it go. And, like Serenity said, I really need to listen to what people say but to be honest, I was quite drunk and I don't remember every word that was shared, either. So, who am I to judge or project at this point?
And, I already know I can't define love for someone else. We all experience life and love in very individual ways. I'm trying to be mindful of that and respectful of his opinions. At some point, I might have to make a decision to get more clarity or honesty from him and that will definitely be a conversation to be had when SOBER. One thing I do know, is that I'm learning so much through this relationship about what I need, about how to give love without the expected return, and how to enjoy living life one day at a time. I truly don't have any desire to marry, to live with a man, or to blend families, etc right now. My life is pretty dang good and I am happy. If things don't work out, I know that he will just be another person on my path who taught me more about ME and about how I interact with those around me.
Such amazing awareness!!! Thanks!
Remember, intentions and about $5 gets you a fancy drink at Starbucks. Words, and $10 gets you a racing form. LOL.
Everything means little to nothing...other than actions. Not actions today, not actions after a fight. Not even actions on your birthday or anniversary. It's the every day, day to day, normal, regular, for no reason actions. It's the actions that are innate. It's the actions that are visceral. It's the true, authentic, genuine actions.
As a very wise man once said...when it comes to men...don't pay any attention to what they say...just watch what they do.
Thanks again for your last post...again, such amazing awareness, self-discovery, insight, and so much more.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 9th of July 2019 04:36:36 PM
While it did not work the same for me, I am happy for the fun and happiness YOU get out of drinking and drunken relationships. In my case, it brought me to my knees in prayer... and crawling into Al-anon meetings...
Keep doing you - you got this!
"When it comes to men...don't pay any attention to anything they say...just watch what they do."
He went on to tell me what what a man does, every single day, day in and day out, how he treats you, how he treats people -- a friend, a client, a stranger, and a waiter/waitress -- what he does, innately, for no reason, automatically, the regular things he does, normally...that is "who" he "is" -- at his core. That is the real person, who they are.
I remember just a little tidbit of something that came up when I was talking to my mother once. We were talking about my father and "who" my father "is" -- at his core. One little thing she told me was that my father opened the door (the car door, the door to the restaurant, etc.) for her on their first date...and he did it every single time thereafter...for the next 52 years now...and he still does...to this day.
Not that it applies here, to you, or your situation...but for me...it always worked. The wise man gave me that very same advice, word for word, and said I should live that when it comes to women, how I treat them, who I am, at my core, etc. He said that's who I should strive to be...how I should live my life.
I have.
Keep up the amazing awareness!!! It really touched, moved, and inspired me!!!
I remember a similar talk with my ex-husband early in our relationship. He was quite drunk and, surprisingly, rather than being friendly but reserved, as he was in normal life, he was being gushy and romantic and saying how much I meant to him. I thought, "Which is the real him, the reserved one or the romantic one?"
In our case, I should have done as Bo directed and looked at what he was doing, not what he was saying. Because the real him was the drunk one.
You know your own situation best. But I think maybe a third dimension is to think about whether being drunk is a vital part of him too. I would have said it wasn't, about my ex-husband - until I got to know him a lot better. Then I realized that the real part of him that had been exposed that one time was the part that drinks until his personality changes. That was the part that stuck around. Again, you will know whether or not to look out for this - just saying what was true in our case.
I will say that I was going to wait to talk to him until after we get back from a vacation we're taking on the 20th. But, tonight he came over and I wasn't really feeling connected to him. Not because of him, but because of what was going on in my mind. I hate to say this but if we talk sooner and he truly reveals he isn't capable of love EVER, I will want to end things and we have friends we're traveling with, etc and I still need him to pay me for his share, haha. So, I have some decisions to make.
I am a bit on the other side of the fence on this one, I guess....
In my experience, and particularly with those of us who are NOT alcoholic, I DO believe that alcohol can sometimes be a "truth serum", and people often say what they cannot say in sobriety when they have too many walls up.
Regardless, it sounds to me like you really like this guy, and the feeling appears to be mutual, so why not have a (sober) re-creation of the conversation, where the two of you can talk it out, like grown-ups?
Hugs
Tom
Just my personal experience. Take what you like and leave the rest.