Do you think that those who chronically drink too much believe their own lies?
WildFlower said
Jul 1, 2019
I'm sick of dealing with people who make me the bad guy for what they caused themselves and then they lie about it
DavidG said
Jul 1, 2019
short answer... yes, I believe they do... ...
Bo said
Jul 1, 2019
The more you try to figure out what the alcoholic is doing, why they are doing, how they go about it, what they are thinking, and so on...the more you will drive yourself crazy. Although you refer to those who chronically drink too much...you see "chronic" in the medical sense is in fact an illness...one definition is having an illness persisting for a long time or constantly recurring...should a chronic asthmatic not get treatment? Facetious question.
So...back to the question...Go try to figure out the all-time legendary classic..."Who's on first?"
In my experience...I was focused on a 100% effort and clarity around ME getting better. Period. I was ready to scratch, claw, crawl, beg, plead, and do whatever I needed to do...to get better.
If I spent 1% mental capacity, mental power, mental energy, even 1% of time, 1% of ancillary efforts...on the what and why of the alcoholic...that meant on 99% was being spent focusing on me, only 99% effort on me. For me, that wasn't good enough.
So, ask a question...do you think those who chronically drink too much believe their own lies...well, I am guessing you are not talking about an alcoholic...so the answer is who knows. Who is to say they are lying.
Then your statement...you are sick of dealing with people who make you the bad guy for what they caused themselves and then they lie about it...so...seems simple...don't deal with them. If that's not an option...then what's your role in that? What's your contribution? Sounds like there is an acceptance issue there...although that's in the context of dealing with an alcoholic and their disease. If an alcoholic does not want to quit drinking...and you try and get them to quick, to see the damage they are causing, to understand what you are feeling, to explain to them how bad things are, and so on and so on...I guess my question is...who really has the problem? Who really has the sickness? The alcoholic? You? Both of you?
Alcoholic is not always a black and white, clear-cut, simple, compartmentalized, fitting nicely and perfectly in a box definition. Just because a person quits drinking -- without treatment -- doesn't mean they were or were not. Just because it was caused by A and not by B doesn't mean they are or are not. Just because this happened, and this didn't, doesn't mean they were/are, or were/are not.
Iamhere said
Jul 1, 2019
I think that anyone who uses deception as a part of their journey by choice doesn't care if they or anyone else believes them or knows otherwise. People have been deceptive and telling lies way longer than the disease of alcoholism has been around. It is very common for alcoholics and addicts to use denial and deception to avoid reality and there's no doubt that throwing blame/shame at others is common. It is also very common for family and friends affected by the disease to do the exact same - throw blame/shame at the A in our lives. The bottom line - each human, alive on this planet, is responsible for their own serenity, peace, joy and journey.
I get most of my grounding from working on my recovery, focusing on me vs. others and actively participating in the program/meetings/etc. I truly don't spend much time worrying about what others believe, think, etc. as that's unhealthy for me/my recovery. We say often, What others think about us is none of our business - this is one of many slogans that help me focus on me vs. others.
WildFlower said
Jul 1, 2019
It looks like some of you are getting caught up in semantics here. I can call the person an alcoholic, but one person in another post said she or he, I can't remember who it was, was told not to do that. I can call the person a drunk. There are any number of things I can call this person, some of them just plain derogatory and profane. I was not asking for psychoanalysis. I was talking about someone I know who drinks as a way of life. I don't know if she's an alcoholic or not. So I chose "chronically drink too much" hoping it would be understood. Apparently not. I'm in this relationship with this jerk person because she is my husband's daughter. I like to understand things as best I can, which is why I attended college and love documentaries.
My question is a simple one, do you think a person like this believes their own lies? That's it. I will not dump my husband just because his daughter has no moral compass. I am putting more barriers up to my relationship with his daughter. He keeps her at arm's length - a thousand mile long arm. He and I talked today about her latest SNAFU, and he has no problem with me writing her off. He says and has told me for thirty years that she was like this when she was three.
This is more of an explanation than I wanted to give. I just wanted an answer to a simple question. Thanks.
-- Edited by WildFlower on Monday 1st of July 2019 08:51:30 PM
IamLynn said
Jul 2, 2019
I wrestle with that question also. Yes. I think we do know when we are lying to ourselves and others. I guess it's what we do about it that counts. It's hard to distance yourself from family members, even in-laws, and it might say more about the person it's hard on than the one that makes it hard. I'm glad your husband understands. I think you have come to the right place.
SerenityRUS said
Jul 2, 2019
Short answer is yes. My ex believes what he's saying when he says it . I even believe in that moment he means it. The problem is he blinks and the moments gone. So I don't believe him based upon my experience and I definitely don't believe an active addict of any kind.
Aloha said
Jul 2, 2019
If you're looking to understand the disease of alcoholism, I'd recommend picking up AA's Big Book and giving it a read. It gives you an explanation of how the disease works from the perspective of self-diagnosed alcoholics. I found the book very helpful. Getting to open AA meetings was also helpful for me. But I had to keep an open mind when I did so. Towards the end of their book they have a great quote from Herbert Spencer that says:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
I was in a place where I was at the end of my rope when I found myself reading AA's Big Book - an assignment given me by my sponsor after I started attending Al-Anon meetings and finally asked for someone's help. I was desperate to feel better, to take care of myself, to try and salvage my marriage if at all possible, but to show up in life a happier person and learn how to handle the continuous challenges thrown my way from caring about someone affected by the disease of alcoholism.
-- Edited by Aloha on Tuesday 2nd of July 2019 08:43:20 AM
Lyne said
Jul 2, 2019
My A believes her own lies. I think its all tied in with the disease-denial, rationalization, arrogance, believing she is always right and knows best, lack of coping skills, no patience-Ive learned a lot! Without alanon, I would still be a sinking ship. With alanon, life has gotten better for me no matter what my A is doing or not, Lyne
WildFlower said
Jul 2, 2019
Thanks all of you for your input. I do appreciate it. I wanted your opinions on a personal level. There's what's written in texts and such and then there are those who have experienced it. While I realize what is written down somewhere comes from people's experience, I still like input from those in the trenches, so to speak.
El said
Jul 2, 2019
I think they do believe their own lies. They want us to believe them so badly, they have no choice but to believe them too! Just my opinion only.
Ellen
Aloha said
Jul 2, 2019
Both Al-Anon literature and AA literature is written by those who are and have been in the trenches, as well. It's quite eye-opening. Many members, myself included, always wonder when we read a page from one of the daily readers, for example, if the author had been peeking through our windows and writing our life stories.
You can find Al-Anon literature readily available at face-to-face meetings or on their web site.
That said, you can also get a little taste of what's written in the literature if you peek into the threads here that crop up daily with the title (date) C2C (ie: 7/2 C2C or 6/25 HFT or 4/3 ODAT). Members here are being of service and sharing snippets from those readings and how they personally relate. They're quite helpful. The acronyms are abbreviations of the book titles for the specific daily readers:
C2C = Courage to Change
HFT = Hope for Today
ODAT = One Day at a Time in Al-Anon
Bo said
Jul 2, 2019
Excellent points... there's an element of enigmatic irony when it comes to ALCOHOLICS...and I won't speak to someone who "chronically" (although I disagree with the usage of that word in this context) drinks too much.
My AW is Ivy League educated, comes from an amazing family, was raised well, and was one of the most honest, moral, integrity-made, people I ever met. Perhaps the most. She had incredible values, ethics, and an innate fabric of always doing the right thing. Just an amazing person. When she became an alcoholic, and the disease overcame her life -- she began to lie, make decisions, and do things that she would NEVER EVER have even remotely considered, yet alone done, before becoming an alcoholic. However, here's the part most people have a disconnect on. The alcoholic didn't become a "bad person" because of the disease. They didn't lose their values, ethics, morals, and whatever else, because of the disease. My wife was not a bad person doing bad things. My wife was a sick person who didn't want to get better...and as a result her thinking, her thought process, her decision making, her rational, normal, mind and being was HIJACKED. She was hijacked. All of those things became corrupted from the norm, from who she was. That's what happens with the disease of alcoholism. Lying becomes pathological, it becomes mandatory -- for a variety of reason beyond the scope of this post and this discussion -- and perhaps it's a discussion for another time. However, the lying that we see and witness -- and there are many reasons for it -- becomes automatic and becomes the norm for the alcoholic. The ontological aspect -- who that person is being -- is damaged, and unless they stop drinking, become clean and sober, live a life of recovery...then recovery of who they were/are, at their core, is virtually impossible.
I like what our daily readers speak to when they talk about lying. Because it helps us day to day, real life, practical application...not just the desire to know why, I want to understand, I want to know why, and have that desire, that quest to understand...which is what becomes part of our disease and our sickness. That folks is OUR problem. The more you try and figure out the alcoholic, what they do, why they do it, and so on...the more you drive yourself crazy.
WildFlower said
Jul 2, 2019
Again, thanks for all the insights and the suggestions on where to look for more information. As mentioned in an earlier thread when my brother killed his neighbors he was under the influence of all kinds of things including alcohol. My more religious relatives were sure he was now damned to hell. They didn't even want to know about who he had become because of his addictions. I did. I was driven to find out. He was sweet to me when I was little, and he also played big brother pranks on me that initiated my fear. Then when he killed his neighbors he entrenched my fear. Had he gotten out of prison, I'm sure he would have killed me. He threatened me. I had to do behavior modification on myself so I could have a "normal" life. I created a self-modification of behavior program for myself based on the works of B. F. Skinner. I had the text from a college class I took on it. And I taught myself to play. Playing was a sin when I was growing up. Learning to play was hugely helpful.
hotrod said
Jul 2, 2019
I have heard DEnial defined as:"DOn't" evenm no I am lying. the illnes ours and theirs protects itself
I'm sick of dealing with people who make me the bad guy for what they caused themselves and then they lie about it
So...back to the question...Go try to figure out the all-time legendary classic..."Who's on first?"
In my experience...I was focused on a 100% effort and clarity around ME getting better. Period. I was ready to scratch, claw, crawl, beg, plead, and do whatever I needed to do...to get better.
If I spent 1% mental capacity, mental power, mental energy, even 1% of time, 1% of ancillary efforts...on the what and why of the alcoholic...that meant on 99% was being spent focusing on me, only 99% effort on me. For me, that wasn't good enough.
So, ask a question...do you think those who chronically drink too much believe their own lies...well, I am guessing you are not talking about an alcoholic...so the answer is who knows. Who is to say they are lying.
Then your statement...you are sick of dealing with people who make you the bad guy for what they caused themselves and then they lie about it...so...seems simple...don't deal with them. If that's not an option...then what's your role in that? What's your contribution? Sounds like there is an acceptance issue there...although that's in the context of dealing with an alcoholic and their disease. If an alcoholic does not want to quit drinking...and you try and get them to quick, to see the damage they are causing, to understand what you are feeling, to explain to them how bad things are, and so on and so on...I guess my question is...who really has the problem? Who really has the sickness? The alcoholic? You? Both of you?
Alcoholic is not always a black and white, clear-cut, simple, compartmentalized, fitting nicely and perfectly in a box definition. Just because a person quits drinking -- without treatment -- doesn't mean they were or were not. Just because it was caused by A and not by B doesn't mean they are or are not. Just because this happened, and this didn't, doesn't mean they were/are, or were/are not.
I get most of my grounding from working on my recovery, focusing on me vs. others and actively participating in the program/meetings/etc. I truly don't spend much time worrying about what others believe, think, etc. as that's unhealthy for me/my recovery. We say often, What others think about us is none of our business - this is one of many slogans that help me focus on me vs. others.
It looks like some of you are getting caught up in semantics here. I can call the person an alcoholic, but one person in another post said she or he, I can't remember who it was, was told not to do that. I can call the person a drunk. There are any number of things I can call this person, some of them just plain derogatory and profane. I was not asking for psychoanalysis. I was talking about someone I know who drinks as a way of life. I don't know if she's an alcoholic or not. So I chose "chronically drink too much" hoping it would be understood. Apparently not. I'm in this relationship with this jerk person because she is my husband's daughter. I like to understand things as best I can, which is why I attended college and love documentaries.
My question is a simple one, do you think a person like this believes their own lies? That's it. I will not dump my husband just because his daughter has no moral compass. I am putting more barriers up to my relationship with his daughter. He keeps her at arm's length - a thousand mile long arm. He and I talked today about her latest SNAFU, and he has no problem with me writing her off. He says and has told me for thirty years that she was like this when she was three.
This is more of an explanation than I wanted to give. I just wanted an answer to a simple question. Thanks.
-- Edited by WildFlower on Monday 1st of July 2019 08:51:30 PM
If you're looking to understand the disease of alcoholism, I'd recommend picking up AA's Big Book and giving it a read. It gives you an explanation of how the disease works from the perspective of self-diagnosed alcoholics. I found the book very helpful. Getting to open AA meetings was also helpful for me. But I had to keep an open mind when I did so. Towards the end of their book they have a great quote from Herbert Spencer that says:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
I was in a place where I was at the end of my rope when I found myself reading AA's Big Book - an assignment given me by my sponsor after I started attending Al-Anon meetings and finally asked for someone's help. I was desperate to feel better, to take care of myself, to try and salvage my marriage if at all possible, but to show up in life a happier person and learn how to handle the continuous challenges thrown my way from caring about someone affected by the disease of alcoholism.
-- Edited by Aloha on Tuesday 2nd of July 2019 08:43:20 AM
Thanks all of you for your input. I do appreciate it. I wanted your opinions on a personal level. There's what's written in texts and such and then there are those who have experienced it. While I realize what is written down somewhere comes from people's experience, I still like input from those in the trenches, so to speak.
I think they do believe their own lies. They want us to believe them so badly, they have no choice but to believe them too! Just my opinion only.
Ellen
Both Al-Anon literature and AA literature is written by those who are and have been in the trenches, as well. It's quite eye-opening. Many members, myself included, always wonder when we read a page from one of the daily readers, for example, if the author had been peeking through our windows and writing our life stories.
You can find Al-Anon literature readily available at face-to-face meetings or on their web site.
That said, you can also get a little taste of what's written in the literature if you peek into the threads here that crop up daily with the title (date) C2C (ie: 7/2 C2C or 6/25 HFT or 4/3 ODAT). Members here are being of service and sharing snippets from those readings and how they personally relate. They're quite helpful. The acronyms are abbreviations of the book titles for the specific daily readers:
C2C = Courage to Change
HFT = Hope for Today
ODAT = One Day at a Time in Al-Anon
My AW is Ivy League educated, comes from an amazing family, was raised well, and was one of the most honest, moral, integrity-made, people I ever met. Perhaps the most. She had incredible values, ethics, and an innate fabric of always doing the right thing. Just an amazing person. When she became an alcoholic, and the disease overcame her life -- she began to lie, make decisions, and do things that she would NEVER EVER have even remotely considered, yet alone done, before becoming an alcoholic. However, here's the part most people have a disconnect on. The alcoholic didn't become a "bad person" because of the disease. They didn't lose their values, ethics, morals, and whatever else, because of the disease. My wife was not a bad person doing bad things. My wife was a sick person who didn't want to get better...and as a result her thinking, her thought process, her decision making, her rational, normal, mind and being was HIJACKED. She was hijacked. All of those things became corrupted from the norm, from who she was. That's what happens with the disease of alcoholism. Lying becomes pathological, it becomes mandatory -- for a variety of reason beyond the scope of this post and this discussion -- and perhaps it's a discussion for another time. However, the lying that we see and witness -- and there are many reasons for it -- becomes automatic and becomes the norm for the alcoholic. The ontological aspect -- who that person is being -- is damaged, and unless they stop drinking, become clean and sober, live a life of recovery...then recovery of who they were/are, at their core, is virtually impossible.
I like what our daily readers speak to when they talk about lying. Because it helps us day to day, real life, practical application...not just the desire to know why, I want to understand, I want to know why, and have that desire, that quest to understand...which is what becomes part of our disease and our sickness. That folks is OUR problem. The more you try and figure out the alcoholic, what they do, why they do it, and so on...the more you drive yourself crazy.
Again, thanks for all the insights and the suggestions on where to look for more information. As mentioned in an earlier thread when my brother killed his neighbors he was under the influence of all kinds of things including alcohol. My more religious relatives were sure he was now damned to hell. They didn't even want to know about who he had become because of his addictions. I did. I was driven to find out. He was sweet to me when I was little, and he also played big brother pranks on me that initiated my fear. Then when he killed his neighbors he entrenched my fear. Had he gotten out of prison, I'm sure he would have killed me. He threatened me. I had to do behavior modification on myself so I could have a "normal" life. I created a self-modification of behavior program for myself based on the works of B. F. Skinner. I had the text from a college class I took on it. And I taught myself to play. Playing was a sin when I was growing up. Learning to play was hugely helpful.
That makes sense.