Hi everyone,
Hope everyone is enjoying a lovely Sunday. Right now Im sitting on the boardwalk, looking at the beautiful sunset and scenery, enjoying my coffee and book. 30 minutes ago I was dealing with my AH in a fullon freakout session. My daughter went to her godmothers,( she knew what was happening and told her to come stay so she didnt have to listen to his nonsense). She also told me to come, but I decided against it - as my husband would probably feel like he was being ganged up on. He keeps calling and texting. His last text said,great! So now not only can I not find my keys, but my wife has disappeared as well. I texted back and said , I left because you were getting abusive and I cant be around you when you get that way. I will be home later. His response was, waaaa- abusive? Hahahahahaha
Im not responding. But Im angry. Im trying to be sympathetic to him being deep in his disease, but come on already. I see all these families and couples out for a lovely walk by the lake, and Im here alone because my husband is drunk and abusive. Im pissed. I didnt sign up for this kind of life. All Im thinking is, gee, I would be so much happier right now just being on my own with a dog and my daughter. Im tired of this. Life is so short and I dont want to spend it like this. I really dont. So heres my question, am I working the program by sympathizing and stepping away momentarily? I wouldve loved to have gone over to my daughters godmothers, but I didnt to protect his feelings. Well what about mine?? Ive been working the program for months already. Weekly meetings. Literature daily. I even went to an open AA meeting on Friday. Im just so confused. Im not feeling happy. I keep getting texts from him that I abandoned him. He keeeps reminding me of how much he supports me. Im feeling extremely guilty right now. How am I to deal with him in this moment?? Asking for any guidance or shares. Thank you.
Jill said
Jun 30, 2019
How well I remember those "conversations". I don't know what you should do.
My experience is that I have felt better and felt my old (sane) self ever since I realized talking to this guy who was actively blotto was the same as reasoning with a brick wall. I saw a real brick wall. Red with white mortar. Wider and taller than my vision extended. I was taking the wall's feelings into consideration at the expense of my own.
I can love him without participating. I no longer get in the way of him experiencing the results of his behavior, such as being lonely or missing an event we had planned. I usually have a plan B in my hip pocket, and execute the plan if he is not the companion I deserve that day. He tries to lure me into pushing my interests out of the way in favor of his own, and I can flash on that red brick wall. No buddy, I have better things to do for today (or for this hour).
As far as long term stay or go, I'll see. I don't have to decide yet.
Bo said
Jun 30, 2019
Elabella wrote:
Hi everyone, Hope everyone is enjoying a lovely Sunday. Right now Im sitting on the boardwalk, looking at the beautiful sunset and scenery, enjoying my coffee and book. 30 minutes ago I was dealing with my AH in a fullon freakout session. My daughter went to her godmothers,( she knew what was happening and told her to come stay so she didnt have to listen to his nonsense). She also told me to come, but I decided against it - as my husband would probably feel like he was being ganged up on. He keeps calling and texting. His last text said,great! So now not only can I not find my keys, but my wife has disappeared as well. I texted back and said , I left because you were getting abusive and I cant be around you when you get that way. I will be home later. His response was, waaaa- abusive? Hahahahahaha Im not responding. But Im angry. Im trying to be sympathetic to him being deep in his disease, but come on already. I see all these families and couples out for a lovely walk by the lake, and Im here alone because my husband is drunk and abusive. Im pissed. I didnt sign up for this kind of life. All Im thinking is, gee, I would be so much happier right now just being on my own with a dog and my daughter. Im tired of this. Life is so short and I dont want to spend it like this. I really dont. So heres my question, am I working the program by sympathizing and stepping away momentarily? I wouldve loved to have gone over to my daughters godmothers, but I didnt to protect his feelings. Well what about mine?? Ive been working the program for months already. Weekly meetings. Literature daily. I even went to an open AA meeting on Friday. Im just so confused. Im not feeling happy. I keep getting texts from him that I abandoned him. He keeeps reminding me of how much he supports me. Im feeling extremely guilty right now. How am I to deal with him in this moment?? Asking for any guidance or shares. Thank you.
You have nothing -- ZERO -- to feel guilty about. He is manipulating you, guilting you, so don't let it work!!! Keep doing what you are doing. Don't engage. You not responding -- and then responding how you did was perfect program! He deflects, denies, and then blames you...and all he's trying to do is to get you to respond and engage. Don't!!! You did NOT abandon him. Stop giving his accusations validity.
Now, you say you are working the program...so...what's your goal? What are you working the program for? For him to get better? Or for you to get better? Talk to your sponsor. Let him/her guide you, talk you through this, give you insight. The program is not about simply sympathizing and detaching. It's about a lot more. Yes, detaching in the moment, but also as part of a bigger picture. Your feelings are not going to get considered -- or even acknowledged here. Why? Because he's an alcoholic. You could have gone. That is not offensive or an insult. It's not unsympathetic. You have to look out for YOU. You have to do what's best for YOU...not him. Going would not have been punishing him...even if he said it would be...it would have been protecting YOU.
As far as the bigger picture, this not being the life you signed up for, not wanting to spend your life like this, etc. -- talk to your sponsor. Work the program. You will get better...and then you will be able to decide what you want to do...for YOU...and what is best for YOU. All the best.
sad_dog_mommy said
Jul 1, 2019
Hello!
Whenever things got tough I would think about the al-anon Detachment pamphlet. Here is a link to it.
Your posts remind me very vividly of what it was like for me early on in my program, Ellabella. I can almost feel my nerves ramping up and the absolute discomfort of not engaging while the alcoholic was continually baiting me.
Change IS uncomfortable, however. But I think you're taking the right actions. I've heard many times "When in doubt, don't". Meaning if I'm feeling like maybe I should respond... don't. I get to pause instead. I drop out of the dance and let the alcoholic spin and suddenly start to realize that he's the reason for his current misery, not me.
Next time remember, too, that you are NOT responsible for the alcoholic's feelings. Taking care of yourself by spending time with your mother and daughter is perfectly okay. Just check your motives. If you're doing it to be spiteful, then there's something to look at there. If you're doing it just to feel safe and loved, then you're on the right track.
I learned that sometimes when I needed to take a break from the alcoholic that also meant turning off my phone or blocking his number in particular. Walking away in this day and age isn't like walking away back when Lois started the program. Back then when you walked away you broke all connection for a bit. Today with cell phones and texting you're still not having the opportunity to get fully detached at the moment.
I'm happy to hear you're making it to meetings. I found getting to several during the week really helped me. I heard the message frequently that way and got to expose myself to other people's perspectives and solutions on how they worked through similar issues, which in turn gave me hope and ideas to apply to my life. I also had frequent phone calls with my sponsor. 3x a week, as it were. I'm grateful she insisted on that.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jul 1, 2019
((((Elabella))))
I think you worked the program perfectly at the stage you at at right now!! Don't allow him to guilt trip you!! I understand it is HARD AS HELL to just let that guilt-tripping go!!! Just repeat to yourself, "I am doing this because I love myself, not b/c I hate my spouse. I have to be strong for my child!"
I hope today is better for you!
Elabella said
Jul 1, 2019
Thank you all! I ended up staying a couple of hours more at the beach, then running some errands before I decided to head home. When I got in (I always hate those first moments of uncertainty- not knowing what is awaiting your return). He ignored me on purpose for a good half hour but passive aggressively muttered under his breath different things to guilt me into believing that IM the selfish one. LOL. I just ignored it. Asked him what he wanted to watch on tv. He still ignored me. So I got my iPad out, put the headphones on and started to watch Netflix for myself to not listen to his rambling. When he couldnt figure out how to work something on the remote and asked me, I took my headphones off and told him I didnt know (because I didnt), he flew into a fit of calling me everything awful- you c@&$! Youre doing this on purpose! You know how to work this but youre playing games! Causing drama like you always do!and on and on. Blaming me for our daughter failing 2 subjects at school. And so on and so forth.
I put me headphones back on and just tried to tune him out. Heres the thing. I know how to detach (I think I am) but its still hard to not get hurt by those words. I really have no clue how to turn that part off me off. I hear it, I get hurt. It stings.
So here I am this morning. I just woke up. Hes awake already and downstairs doing stuff in the kitchen. Heres the thing- how do I deal with him right now? Does it make sense to let him know how upset I was yesterday and how I had to (and his daughter) leave to avoid his abuse? Will he even care? Is there any point? I just feel that if nothing is said, then its like Im saying its ok. Its normal. Just sweep it under the carpet and today is another day.
I want him to know EXACTLY what he does to us. But is that fair? So confusing.
Its a long weekend for us here in Canada, so today is another day off. Hopefully it will be a better day!
Aloha said
Jul 1, 2019
What is your motivation in telling him you were hurt by his behavior?
Usually when I communicate such things it's because I'm seeking understanding and that they're going to change their behavior.
Alcoholics are SICK. So long as the alcoholic in your life is actively drinking and not seeking and working a recovery program, attempts at making him know you're hurt will only lead to his going on the defensive. You're essentially inviting him to dance now and you're picking the fight.
What's the next thing you can do for yourself today to take good care of you? Do you have some chores to take care of? Do them. Do you have a friend who's been having a difficult time? Call her and ask her if you can help. Is there a meeting today? Go to it. Is there a movie you want to watch? Go watch it.
The point of all the above is to put the breaks on your obsessive thinking. Put the focus on you or in the case of being helpful to a friend in need, it takes you out of self-pity.
Sure, you can tell him his behavior is not OK. I'm sure he already knows that. Alcoholics are painfully aware of the hurt and distress they cause, but they're stuck in that place of wanting everyone outside of them to make them okay... sound familiar?
Elabella said
Jul 1, 2019
Aloha- oh my goodness. Thanks for the eye opener. My reasoning behind telling him of his outrageous behaviour is to hopefully make him see. But youre right. Its pointless. I wish I read this earlier. I had a complete weak moment when I saw him finally face to face. He acted like nothing and that just made me explode. I completely lost it on him. It was opposite of everything I knew I should be doing. I was going on raw emotion and thats it. I got sucked into the dance again willingly. His response was the same as yesterday. Namecalling etc. And I did the same. Stormed out of the house, yelling and slammed the door. Not productive in the least. I feel guilty and angry right now.
But I took my book, grabbed a coffee, and made my way to our local park and I will spend some time here decompressing. Last night I begged God for guidance, for a sign, anything to help me see clearly what my next actions should be.
Thank you so much for your input.
Bo said
Jul 1, 2019
Ellabella, what you portray brings back so many memories for me. I went through so much of exactly the same things, same behaviors, circumstances, etc. The many questions you ask are the right questions -- but they are not so easy to get simple answers to. Much of the questions, and answers, are part of a larger, more global conversation, part of the context and content of the alanon program. The questions, and the conversations are multi-faceted.
My experience, first, is when you first get home, or the alcoholic first gets home...is a very fragile, sometimes scary, point in time...for exactly the reason you said...WE just never know who and what we are facing and dealing with!!! Our program helps us understand that no matter who and what we are dealing with...WE have options. WE have actions WE can take. But if we focus on the alcoholic and what they say, what they do, and so forth...then all we are doing is making excuses that we don't have options, choices, actions we can take. That's false. WE DO have options and choices, but we make excuses and say BUT, HOWEVER, and we convince ourselves we don't have options. That's OUR problem.
Second, you made a comment that you "just ignored it" and you used the word ignore other times as well. Many people misunderstand detachment or detaching with ignoring. Many people misconstrue and simply think ignoring is detaching. IT IS NOT. Sure, he ignored you, but he is not detaching from you! LOL. Detaching is not ignoring. On top of that, you then got out you iPad, put your headphones on, and watched Netflix (for yourself as you said) and so that you didn't have to "listen to his rambling." Is this detaching? I would talk to your sponsor. Perhaps you should consider -- is this offensive? Is it dismissive? Is it enabling, meaning is it perpetuating the situation? What are you contributing to this situation? I find that ignoring can sometimes be dismissive, insulting, demeaning, condescending, etc. It is not to debate whether it is or it isn't. However, what can you do? CHECK YOUR MOTIVES. Do you have other options? Can you leave the room? Can you go somewhere else, by yourself? Why is that different? Because it can be part of a boundary!!! It can be part of a larger course of action that YOU are taking for YOU and YOUR health and well-being...and you can state your boundary at various times, in a non-argumentative, non-confrontational, non-adversarial way. Now, please don't mistake or neglect one thing going on here...his behavior, his actions, when he flew into a fit a you call it and all of the other things you've portrayed over time...that is harassment and verbal abuse!!! Period. DO NOT forget a major principle of the alanon program...YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR...especially behavior that graduates to breaking a law, and you being in a potentially harmful, dangerous situation, where you are at risk of physical danger, harm, etc.
Third, you then put your headphones back on...with your goal and your motivation being to try and just tune him out" as you call it. You say you know how to detach. It's not something you learn and then just stop learning. You keep working on it, keep learning, keep getting better at it. Again, talk to your sponsor. I don't know that you are detaching. You are certainly ignoring, at least the way I see it. I just don't know that I would say this is healthy detaching. You then say it is still hard to not get hurt by those words. Here's the answer...you are supposed to be hurt by those words!!! It's human. It's normal. You are not supposed to be immune to those words. However, the hurt is not supposed to consume you. That's what the tools of the alanon program teach us! You don't turn that part of. You accept, you surrender, and then you let go. When you find a place of recovery, true recovery, and you live a life of recovery...those words will be said, you will hear them and the hurt will not consume you and will be brief and will be different. It's not hurt, it's sadness, sympathy, empathy, understanding and compassion...but it is still hurt. Remember...PAIN IS INEVITABLE, BUT SUFFERING IS OPTIONAL. That is about US.
Fourth, you are supposed to get hurt. If you were completely immune then you would be nothing more than a slave to misery. Pain is a very powerful motivating factor. It motivates people to change, to take action. When the pain becomes too much to bear...it moves us, forces us, to action, to change, to alleviate and eliminate the pain. You ask -- how do you deal with him right now? He is an alcoholic. Period. He has made a statement that he does not want to quit, seek help, get better, get clean and sober, etc. So, what do you do? How do you deal with him? You can certainly "express" to him how you feel about what happened and how he behaved. However, to what end? To go on record? To be heard? Or...are you actually expecting him to change? Check your motives. Telling him how you feel and how upset you were...is still being delivered to and received by an alcoholic. Perhaps he's sober at the moment...but does that mean he'll be "OK" to receive this message? You ask if he will even care? In the moment, perhaps he will say he does...but he is incapable of caring in the larger, bigger picture...because you are dealing with...an insidious, progressive, decimating, enigmatic, damaging, illogical disease. So, what should you expect? You ask if there is any point? Well, that's a great question.
Do we do things because there's a point? Is there an expected or desired outcome? Are you vested in the outcome? It sounds like you have some expectations around this. Yes, I agree, if you say or do nothing...that can be an inferred acceptance, an inferred OK, etc. However, the real issue is...WHAT do you say...WHY do you say it...and HOW do you say it. Boundaries...it's all about boundaries. You closed off by saying, "I want him to know EXACTLY what he does to us." -- and that says it all. Anger? Resentment? You see, this is about YOU. Not him. You don't do or not do something because of the impact, outcome, change, control, etc., as it relates to him!!! Your goal is not to change him. It's about changing YOU.
Remember...nothing changes if nothing changes. That statement is about YOU. Not him.
All the best.
Elabella said
Jul 1, 2019
Bo- thank you for this very clear explanation. I guess thinking about this now that Ive had a few hours in peace alone, I can see my motivation in flipping out on him. Its about me. Me wanting to be heard and recognized. Is that a bad thing? I dont think so- but I guess the point is an alcoholic who is actively drinking, will not be able to hear or be empathetic at all. Who am I kidding?! Its almost like the two of us are both small children acting out in ways that serve only us. I need to depend on myself for validation. This has always been my issue- getting so wrapped up in the other persons life that I literally become them. I dont know where I end and he begins.
Thank you for your shares- it really helps me tremendously.
SerenityRUS said
Jul 1, 2019
Hi Elabella,
I have been struggling with my non alcoholic mother and my XAH one of the key phrases that was shared was:
My Mother isn't suppose to be like this!! (Neither is my XAH)
And it really struck me in that post what both H2P and Aloha shared, it is so true .. this isn't what I signed up for and why does my mom act the way she does.
This can be applied to the Alcoholic because sometimes no matter how much I think or remember that I am not in control of the behavior somewhere .. I start believing that I am and I become frustrated with the fact my mom is just being who she is. I do have choices .. it used to be I didn't really believe I had any choices in regards to MY behavior and what I did to protect myself. Oh I would do what you did .. remove myself from the situation and manage to get caught right back into it. OMG .. that is the part that really makes me angry at myself .. I know better .. I totally know better and yet somehow I wind up being the one to show my ass so to speak.
I'm really working on letting go of the why she do what she does and focus in on why do I do what I do. Not to assign blame .. to correct myself when I feel myself headed down that path. My kids can verify I am way way way more relaxed than I was living with either my mother or my XAH. I still get triggered by both of them however I am more in control of myself to take a step back and say .. ok .. let's look at this logically and apply what works. That doesn't mean there are not situations that cause me to kick my program to the curb. That is a time takes time kind of healing .. the more I work the steps the more I keep the focus on me and obsess or worry about what others are doing it is sooo much easier on me.
None of this is easy living in crazy and remaining calm and collected is totally not easy. It is coming to me slowly that it's really not about me .. this is about them and whatever stuff they have. One of the older members here described my XAH's behavior as think of him as a monkey in the zoo .. he's sitting in his own poop and it bothers him .. however in his own mind he can't move and the only option he has is to throw it at you so he can smear you with the smell. In his own mind he's really not sitting in poop, you are. That is one of those visuals I get and that's what I go to when I sense him acting out. I have come late to the game that my mother is responding in similar ways to the fact that I don't have to tolerate said behavior and I can let go how I need to let go. At some point I will have to brave a phone call I just don't feel like it at the moment .. so hopefully I will get my courage and write a quick note. To at least bridge some of the gap. She's very upset with me at the moment because she can't control the contact and at least she's being better at it.
Soooo we'll see where it all goes and how it all goes.
Anyways, .. life that involves an alcoholic is not easy. I know I expected responses and emotions from my X he couldn't give and I really didn't know what to do with .. it makes me sad in a lot of ways. It highlights more what I was lacking and my own maturity during that time.
BTW good on you on reaching out for "help" by attending meetings and posting here .. neither are easy to do. I hope that you will find a sponsor if you haven't already it makes such a difference.
Hugs S :)
WildFlower said
Jul 1, 2019
I have nothing to add to all the responses here. These people know a lot more about this than I do. But I am giving you my support.
Iamhere said
Jul 1, 2019
(((Ellabella))) - I too remember vividly the intense internally feelings when the active A was spinning out. In my home, there appeared to be a new found level of insanity each time and I always felt uneasy, unnerved, scared, etc. Way more so than angry - that usually came later. I believe it's very logical and healthy to vacate as quickly as possible - in whatever way possible. If it's as easy as changing rooms, so be it. If you need to take a walk, a drive, attend a meeting, find a hotel, etc., so be it. What I had to accept and realize is my number one priority is me, my health, my peace, my feelings, etc. I am not responsible for another persons feelings but I am responsible for mine.
What this means is when I am angry, I need to pause long enough to consider what I really want to say and how I want to respond. I was a huge reactive soul prior to recovery and I met fire with fire, and fury with fury. I can yell louder than anyone in this house and have done so many times in the past. I haven't raised my voice in a really, really long time - I don't even holler from floor to floor for dinner any more - I find it to be disrespectful. I go out of my way to walk upstairs and/or downstairs to tell all that dinner is ready or I send a text. That's how much I value peacefulness today.
I love that others have suggested you check your motives. I love that others have suggested detaching in a healthy manner. I found it very hard to detach until I had healthy boundaries in place, intending to protect me/my peace and not punish another. I would also add that my sponsor retrained me to share my feelings and my intent using I words only. So - in your case above, when you suggested his abusive behavior is why you left, my sponsor would make me drill down on that and change it instead to something like, I left as I felt unsafe in our home at the time. When/if pressed, more I statements - such as I get uncomfortable with yelling, cursing, name calling, etc. Using YOU or YOUR statements is putting match to lighter fuel - it's throwing blame/shame. THIS was infuriating to me at first as I still had the mindset of, "If he would change, I wouldn't be ....................." thinking.
I would go to as many meetings as possible. In the beginning, one a week would not have been enough for me to make the necessary changes for my own recovery. If that's all that's available in your area, I really encourage you to find online or phone in meetings. The only way I was truly able to surrender, accept and move forward was to live/breath/embrace/practice what was suggested in Al-Anon recovery. You have come so, so far in your time already - don't cheat yourself and short-change your recovery! Give it all you got and you will find your peace and your truth for your situation. If I can, so can you! (((Hugs)))
Bo said
Jul 1, 2019
Elabella wrote:
Bo- thank you for this very clear explanation. I guess thinking about this now that Ive had a few hours in peace alone, I can see my motivation in flipping out on him. Its about me. Me wanting to be heard and recognized. Is that a bad thing? I dont think so- but I guess the point is an alcoholic who is actively drinking, will not be able to hear or be empathetic at all. Who am I kidding?! Its almost like the two of us are both small children acting out in ways that serve only us. I need to depend on myself for validation. This has always been my issue- getting so wrapped up in the other persons life that I literally become them. I dont know where I end and he begins. Thank you for your shares- it really helps me tremendously.
The desire to be heard, to be recognized, is not a bad thing, but it is very much about us. Only you know what's at the core of that -- anger, resentment, vindictiveness, spitefulness, fear, revenge, desperation, or a hundred other things, or a combination of two or many. Only you know. Much of it is "ego" -- and not ego in the egotistical sense. Ego in the psychology sense. That is where being completely open and honest -- like in working with your sponsor -- is the key to getting better and getting healthy. Most people don't achieve that level. What is also needed with complete openness and honesty is objectivity and accountability. In the end, one has to want to make change. Period. I don't know that it's good or bad, but for me, my experience, is that it certainly stands in the way of progress -- my progress -- and me getting better and getting healthy. That's working the program. Looking at myself, making change, so that I can be a better person, a healthy person.
An alcoholic is incapable of having empathy. Keep waiting and keep being disappointed, because it will never happen. The alcoholic is emotionally bankrupt and is not capable of putting someone else's feelings ahead or above that of alcohol and drinking. What you are describing is very common, a form of co-dependency, a complete and total immersion in the other person, what they are doing, how you can get your point across, prove your point, be right, and so on. Hence the roller-coaster...and you are both on it. However, you have a choice. The unhealthy person continues to try and prove to the alcoholic that staying on the roller-coaster is crazy, a bad thing, damaging, etc. And they keep trying and trying. The healthy person simply chooses to get off the roller-coaster.
Go to meetings. As many and as often as you can. Start meeting with and talking to your sponsor...with the focus being to do the work, working the program. Not simply carrying out the definition of the tools, but truly working the program and making change in you, for you, about you. All the best.
Elabella said
Jul 4, 2019
Thank you for all your shares. I feel grateful to be able to have all of you helping me. Its really been a lifesaver.
My experience is that I have felt better and felt my old (sane) self ever since I realized talking to this guy who was actively blotto was the same as reasoning with a brick wall. I saw a real brick wall. Red with white mortar. Wider and taller than my vision extended. I was taking the wall's feelings into consideration at the expense of my own.
I can love him without participating. I no longer get in the way of him experiencing the results of his behavior, such as being lonely or missing an event we had planned. I usually have a plan B in my hip pocket, and execute the plan if he is not the companion I deserve that day. He tries to lure me into pushing my interests out of the way in favor of his own, and I can flash on that red brick wall. No buddy, I have better things to do for today (or for this hour).
As far as long term stay or go, I'll see. I don't have to decide yet.
You have nothing -- ZERO -- to feel guilty about. He is manipulating you, guilting you, so don't let it work!!! Keep doing what you are doing. Don't engage. You not responding -- and then responding how you did was perfect program! He deflects, denies, and then blames you...and all he's trying to do is to get you to respond and engage. Don't!!! You did NOT abandon him. Stop giving his accusations validity.
Now, you say you are working the program...so...what's your goal? What are you working the program for? For him to get better? Or for you to get better? Talk to your sponsor. Let him/her guide you, talk you through this, give you insight. The program is not about simply sympathizing and detaching. It's about a lot more. Yes, detaching in the moment, but also as part of a bigger picture. Your feelings are not going to get considered -- or even acknowledged here. Why? Because he's an alcoholic. You could have gone. That is not offensive or an insult. It's not unsympathetic. You have to look out for YOU. You have to do what's best for YOU...not him. Going would not have been punishing him...even if he said it would be...it would have been protecting YOU.
As far as the bigger picture, this not being the life you signed up for, not wanting to spend your life like this, etc. -- talk to your sponsor. Work the program. You will get better...and then you will be able to decide what you want to do...for YOU...and what is best for YOU. All the best.
Whenever things got tough I would think about the al-anon Detachment pamphlet. Here is a link to it.
al-anon.org/pdf/S19.pdf
((( hug )))
Change IS uncomfortable, however. But I think you're taking the right actions. I've heard many times "When in doubt, don't". Meaning if I'm feeling like maybe I should respond... don't. I get to pause instead. I drop out of the dance and let the alcoholic spin and suddenly start to realize that he's the reason for his current misery, not me.
Next time remember, too, that you are NOT responsible for the alcoholic's feelings. Taking care of yourself by spending time with your mother and daughter is perfectly okay. Just check your motives. If you're doing it to be spiteful, then there's something to look at there. If you're doing it just to feel safe and loved, then you're on the right track.
I learned that sometimes when I needed to take a break from the alcoholic that also meant turning off my phone or blocking his number in particular. Walking away in this day and age isn't like walking away back when Lois started the program. Back then when you walked away you broke all connection for a bit. Today with cell phones and texting you're still not having the opportunity to get fully detached at the moment.
I'm happy to hear you're making it to meetings. I found getting to several during the week really helped me. I heard the message frequently that way and got to expose myself to other people's perspectives and solutions on how they worked through similar issues, which in turn gave me hope and ideas to apply to my life. I also had frequent phone calls with my sponsor. 3x a week, as it were. I'm grateful she insisted on that.
I think you worked the program perfectly at the stage you at at right now!! Don't allow him to guilt trip you!! I understand it is HARD AS HELL to just let that guilt-tripping go!!! Just repeat to yourself, "I am doing this because I love myself, not b/c I hate my spouse. I have to be strong for my child!"
I hope today is better for you!
Usually when I communicate such things it's because I'm seeking understanding and that they're going to change their behavior.
Alcoholics are SICK. So long as the alcoholic in your life is actively drinking and not seeking and working a recovery program, attempts at making him know you're hurt will only lead to his going on the defensive. You're essentially inviting him to dance now and you're picking the fight.
What's the next thing you can do for yourself today to take good care of you? Do you have some chores to take care of? Do them. Do you have a friend who's been having a difficult time? Call her and ask her if you can help. Is there a meeting today? Go to it. Is there a movie you want to watch? Go watch it.
The point of all the above is to put the breaks on your obsessive thinking. Put the focus on you or in the case of being helpful to a friend in need, it takes you out of self-pity.
Sure, you can tell him his behavior is not OK. I'm sure he already knows that. Alcoholics are painfully aware of the hurt and distress they cause, but they're stuck in that place of wanting everyone outside of them to make them okay... sound familiar?
Ellabella, what you portray brings back so many memories for me. I went through so much of exactly the same things, same behaviors, circumstances, etc. The many questions you ask are the right questions -- but they are not so easy to get simple answers to. Much of the questions, and answers, are part of a larger, more global conversation, part of the context and content of the alanon program. The questions, and the conversations are multi-faceted.
My experience, first, is when you first get home, or the alcoholic first gets home...is a very fragile, sometimes scary, point in time...for exactly the reason you said...WE just never know who and what we are facing and dealing with!!! Our program helps us understand that no matter who and what we are dealing with...WE have options. WE have actions WE can take. But if we focus on the alcoholic and what they say, what they do, and so forth...then all we are doing is making excuses that we don't have options, choices, actions we can take. That's false. WE DO have options and choices, but we make excuses and say BUT, HOWEVER, and we convince ourselves we don't have options. That's OUR problem.
Second, you made a comment that you "just ignored it" and you used the word ignore other times as well. Many people misunderstand detachment or detaching with ignoring. Many people misconstrue and simply think ignoring is detaching. IT IS NOT. Sure, he ignored you, but he is not detaching from you! LOL. Detaching is not ignoring. On top of that, you then got out you iPad, put your headphones on, and watched Netflix (for yourself as you said) and so that you didn't have to "listen to his rambling." Is this detaching? I would talk to your sponsor. Perhaps you should consider -- is this offensive? Is it dismissive? Is it enabling, meaning is it perpetuating the situation? What are you contributing to this situation? I find that ignoring can sometimes be dismissive, insulting, demeaning, condescending, etc. It is not to debate whether it is or it isn't. However, what can you do? CHECK YOUR MOTIVES. Do you have other options? Can you leave the room? Can you go somewhere else, by yourself? Why is that different? Because it can be part of a boundary!!! It can be part of a larger course of action that YOU are taking for YOU and YOUR health and well-being...and you can state your boundary at various times, in a non-argumentative, non-confrontational, non-adversarial way. Now, please don't mistake or neglect one thing going on here...his behavior, his actions, when he flew into a fit a you call it and all of the other things you've portrayed over time...that is harassment and verbal abuse!!! Period. DO NOT forget a major principle of the alanon program...YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR...especially behavior that graduates to breaking a law, and you being in a potentially harmful, dangerous situation, where you are at risk of physical danger, harm, etc.
Third, you then put your headphones back on...with your goal and your motivation being to try and just tune him out" as you call it. You say you know how to detach. It's not something you learn and then just stop learning. You keep working on it, keep learning, keep getting better at it. Again, talk to your sponsor. I don't know that you are detaching. You are certainly ignoring, at least the way I see it. I just don't know that I would say this is healthy detaching. You then say it is still hard to not get hurt by those words. Here's the answer...you are supposed to be hurt by those words!!! It's human. It's normal. You are not supposed to be immune to those words. However, the hurt is not supposed to consume you. That's what the tools of the alanon program teach us! You don't turn that part of. You accept, you surrender, and then you let go. When you find a place of recovery, true recovery, and you live a life of recovery...those words will be said, you will hear them and the hurt will not consume you and will be brief and will be different. It's not hurt, it's sadness, sympathy, empathy, understanding and compassion...but it is still hurt. Remember...PAIN IS INEVITABLE, BUT SUFFERING IS OPTIONAL. That is about US.
Fourth, you are supposed to get hurt. If you were completely immune then you would be nothing more than a slave to misery. Pain is a very powerful motivating factor. It motivates people to change, to take action. When the pain becomes too much to bear...it moves us, forces us, to action, to change, to alleviate and eliminate the pain. You ask -- how do you deal with him right now? He is an alcoholic. Period. He has made a statement that he does not want to quit, seek help, get better, get clean and sober, etc. So, what do you do? How do you deal with him? You can certainly "express" to him how you feel about what happened and how he behaved. However, to what end? To go on record? To be heard? Or...are you actually expecting him to change? Check your motives. Telling him how you feel and how upset you were...is still being delivered to and received by an alcoholic. Perhaps he's sober at the moment...but does that mean he'll be "OK" to receive this message? You ask if he will even care? In the moment, perhaps he will say he does...but he is incapable of caring in the larger, bigger picture...because you are dealing with...an insidious, progressive, decimating, enigmatic, damaging, illogical disease. So, what should you expect? You ask if there is any point? Well, that's a great question.
Do we do things because there's a point? Is there an expected or desired outcome? Are you vested in the outcome? It sounds like you have some expectations around this. Yes, I agree, if you say or do nothing...that can be an inferred acceptance, an inferred OK, etc. However, the real issue is...WHAT do you say...WHY do you say it...and HOW do you say it. Boundaries...it's all about boundaries. You closed off by saying, "I want him to know EXACTLY what he does to us." -- and that says it all. Anger? Resentment? You see, this is about YOU. Not him. You don't do or not do something because of the impact, outcome, change, control, etc., as it relates to him!!! Your goal is not to change him. It's about changing YOU.
Remember...nothing changes if nothing changes. That statement is about YOU. Not him.
All the best.
I have been struggling with my non alcoholic mother and my XAH one of the key phrases that was shared was:
My Mother isn't suppose to be like this!! (Neither is my XAH)
And it really struck me in that post what both H2P and Aloha shared, it is so true .. this isn't what I signed up for and why does my mom act the way she does.
This can be applied to the Alcoholic because sometimes no matter how much I think or remember that I am not in control of the behavior somewhere .. I start believing that I am and I become frustrated with the fact my mom is just being who she is. I do have choices .. it used to be I didn't really believe I had any choices in regards to MY behavior and what I did to protect myself. Oh I would do what you did .. remove myself from the situation and manage to get caught right back into it. OMG .. that is the part that really makes me angry at myself .. I know better .. I totally know better and yet somehow I wind up being the one to show my ass so to speak.
I'm really working on letting go of the why she do what she does and focus in on why do I do what I do. Not to assign blame .. to correct myself when I feel myself headed down that path. My kids can verify I am way way way more relaxed than I was living with either my mother or my XAH. I still get triggered by both of them however I am more in control of myself to take a step back and say .. ok .. let's look at this logically and apply what works. That doesn't mean there are not situations that cause me to kick my program to the curb. That is a time takes time kind of healing .. the more I work the steps the more I keep the focus on me and obsess or worry about what others are doing it is sooo much easier on me.
None of this is easy living in crazy and remaining calm and collected is totally not easy. It is coming to me slowly that it's really not about me .. this is about them and whatever stuff they have. One of the older members here described my XAH's behavior as think of him as a monkey in the zoo .. he's sitting in his own poop and it bothers him .. however in his own mind he can't move and the only option he has is to throw it at you so he can smear you with the smell. In his own mind he's really not sitting in poop, you are. That is one of those visuals I get and that's what I go to when I sense him acting out. I have come late to the game that my mother is responding in similar ways to the fact that I don't have to tolerate said behavior and I can let go how I need to let go. At some point I will have to brave a phone call I just don't feel like it at the moment .. so hopefully I will get my courage and write a quick note. To at least bridge some of the gap. She's very upset with me at the moment because she can't control the contact and at least she's being better at it.
Soooo we'll see where it all goes and how it all goes.
Anyways, .. life that involves an alcoholic is not easy. I know I expected responses and emotions from my X he couldn't give and I really didn't know what to do with .. it makes me sad in a lot of ways. It highlights more what I was lacking and my own maturity during that time.
BTW good on you on reaching out for "help" by attending meetings and posting here .. neither are easy to do. I hope that you will find a sponsor if you haven't already it makes such a difference.
Hugs S :)
I have nothing to add to all the responses here. These people know a lot more about this than I do. But I am giving you my support.
What this means is when I am angry, I need to pause long enough to consider what I really want to say and how I want to respond. I was a huge reactive soul prior to recovery and I met fire with fire, and fury with fury. I can yell louder than anyone in this house and have done so many times in the past. I haven't raised my voice in a really, really long time - I don't even holler from floor to floor for dinner any more - I find it to be disrespectful. I go out of my way to walk upstairs and/or downstairs to tell all that dinner is ready or I send a text. That's how much I value peacefulness today.
I love that others have suggested you check your motives. I love that others have suggested detaching in a healthy manner. I found it very hard to detach until I had healthy boundaries in place, intending to protect me/my peace and not punish another. I would also add that my sponsor retrained me to share my feelings and my intent using I words only. So - in your case above, when you suggested his abusive behavior is why you left, my sponsor would make me drill down on that and change it instead to something like, I left as I felt unsafe in our home at the time. When/if pressed, more I statements - such as I get uncomfortable with yelling, cursing, name calling, etc. Using YOU or YOUR statements is putting match to lighter fuel - it's throwing blame/shame. THIS was infuriating to me at first as I still had the mindset of, "If he would change, I wouldn't be ....................." thinking.
I would go to as many meetings as possible. In the beginning, one a week would not have been enough for me to make the necessary changes for my own recovery. If that's all that's available in your area, I really encourage you to find online or phone in meetings. The only way I was truly able to surrender, accept and move forward was to live/breath/embrace/practice what was suggested in Al-Anon recovery. You have come so, so far in your time already - don't cheat yourself and short-change your recovery! Give it all you got and you will find your peace and your truth for your situation. If I can, so can you! (((Hugs)))
The desire to be heard, to be recognized, is not a bad thing, but it is very much about us. Only you know what's at the core of that -- anger, resentment, vindictiveness, spitefulness, fear, revenge, desperation, or a hundred other things, or a combination of two or many. Only you know. Much of it is "ego" -- and not ego in the egotistical sense. Ego in the psychology sense. That is where being completely open and honest -- like in working with your sponsor -- is the key to getting better and getting healthy. Most people don't achieve that level. What is also needed with complete openness and honesty is objectivity and accountability. In the end, one has to want to make change. Period. I don't know that it's good or bad, but for me, my experience, is that it certainly stands in the way of progress -- my progress -- and me getting better and getting healthy. That's working the program. Looking at myself, making change, so that I can be a better person, a healthy person.
An alcoholic is incapable of having empathy. Keep waiting and keep being disappointed, because it will never happen. The alcoholic is emotionally bankrupt and is not capable of putting someone else's feelings ahead or above that of alcohol and drinking. What you are describing is very common, a form of co-dependency, a complete and total immersion in the other person, what they are doing, how you can get your point across, prove your point, be right, and so on. Hence the roller-coaster...and you are both on it. However, you have a choice. The unhealthy person continues to try and prove to the alcoholic that staying on the roller-coaster is crazy, a bad thing, damaging, etc. And they keep trying and trying. The healthy person simply chooses to get off the roller-coaster.
Go to meetings. As many and as often as you can. Start meeting with and talking to your sponsor...with the focus being to do the work, working the program. Not simply carrying out the definition of the tools, but truly working the program and making change in you, for you, about you. All the best.