I am trying SO hard to not get pulled into arguments with my AH.Some days it feels so easy and other days it's impossible.He knows exactly how to push my buttons and then once he does he tells me I'm the problem because of my out of control behavior.
I seriously can't take it anymore. I feel so bad about myself afterwards.It's like he brings out the worst in me.
How do I stop this madness?
Lyne said
May 25, 2019
Hello SunnyFrogs-What works for me is not to open my mouth. There can't be an argument if two people don't engage. We have a slogan: Think. It means to pause, think, wait until we are calm to react, etc. Believe me, I am no longer a doormat and say what I need to say. My A cannot be reasonable or rational some of the time and there is no point in trying to reach her at that point. I sometimes say: Just listen to what I have to say, think about it, and give me your feedback later. Fights can be avoided with practice, Lyne
hotrod said
May 25, 2019
Detachment worked foe me as well as a firm resolve to Not engage no matter what
El said
May 25, 2019
Thank you for this post. I find I still want to explain my point of view, not necessarily to argue but to at least have a rational discussion. I am almost NEVER successful. Once the drinking is underway or its a sore spot topic, there is no rational discussion to be had. It is soooo difficult for me to not engage and I still instinctively do at times, so it takes lots of practice. Change the subject, leave the room, find an errand to run. Its not fair, but is less draining than the argument.
I totally hear you and understand fully! We all do!
Ellen
PosiesandPuppies said
May 25, 2019
((((Sunnyfrogs))))
Yes, we have all been there! For many years I just thought if I just explained myself clearly, my spouse would understand my point of view. With Addiction, the only POV that is important is their OWN POV! I found that no amount of explanation, discussion, or facts allowed me to see the result I wanted... to be heard and respected! Forget about having a rational discussion! LOL! EVERYTHING was a catalyst for an argument. I walked around wondering what was wrong with me... why wasn't I enough for this marriage?
Then I really began embracing Al-Anon and it's principles. I researched Detachment, and learned the best responses. I learned about how not to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend & Explain). Just so you know, this was really hard for me to practice! Each time my spouse would have a "normal" lucid moment, I thought I could "make" him understand! It was the exact definition of Insanity! LOL! When I recognized I looked like the "crazy one," that is when the JADE concept clicked for me. I HAD to work on disengaging... for my own sanity! Then I found something called "Grey Rock'ing" - Google 'Grey Rock,' you'll find a lot of info- this worked well for me.
Of course, these self-preserving techniques made my spouse amp up his behaviors... so I began leaving the house when they did not work. Took my teenager with me whenever I could. Sometimes we just had to get out. When those times became more frequent, and when I read how my AH's behaviors were affecting my Kid (as well as his FUTURE SELF), I decided to separate and we left. Sounds fast & painless, but it was anything but.
In hindsight, I wish I would've done this so much earlier. But when we know better, we do better. And I had to really work on myself to get past the FEAR. That took awhile. I have accepted that my journey took the time it needed... I have made amends to my Kid, & of course he told me not to apologize, as "This wasn't my fault." I have since come to understand that I allowed many things because of my fear. I am still a work in progress!
This is my ESH (Experience, Strength, Hope)... take what you want, and leave the rest!
Wishing you peace this weekend... holidays were always tough for me with my drinking spouse, so I understand the difficulty of the weekend.
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Saturday 25th of May 2019 11:19:33 AM
JerryF said
May 25, 2019
Just thinking of your sign on "Sunny Frogs" is a great tool for me in this discussion. If I can see and continue to see that picture my attitude will alter toward sitting on the lily pad smiling in the warm sun on a glassy pool of water and offering just a "gribbit" to the world and the alcoholic.
My sponsor and I did good work and research in and on the subject of response versus react and now that I have a good experience about those two I rarely react. I have learned and decided I like the process of stopping, thinking and choosing a serene outcome much better than the consequences of just reacting in a way I do not like. It works when you work it. I'm working it cause in the last few days at times I wasn't.
Thanks for sharing with me and letting me share also. ((((Hugs))))
Iamhere said
May 25, 2019
(((Sunny Frogs))) - you are not alone! I too choose to just not engage. There's a variety of neutral responses that helped me greatly when I started Al-Anon recovery:
"Hummmm"
"You may be right"
"That's interesting"
"I hear you"
"I never thought of it that way"
"Let me think on that for a while and I'll get back to you"
There's more but those popped into my head in the moment. I have also sat perfectly silent and let another rant, rave, explain, defend, justify, etc. - if I choose to respond with no response, it does end quite fast - as pointed out above, it takes 2 for it to continue. Today, I really practice JADE - Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. I instead Detach and pray - often repeating in my head "Bless Them, Change Me".
As I worked hard to practice detaching, my guys resisted. They didn't like it when they could no longer affect my moods and reactions (push buttons) so tried harder. Remaining steadfast in my efforts and consistent has led to a completely different dynamic in our home. There are still flare-ups once in a while, but nothing like it used to be. The other day, my son was wanting to argue and I started to engage....I actually caught myself, and instead just said out loud, "You can be right and I choose to be happy!" He's been in/around recovery long enough to know that's from it and did an eye-roll and walked away...I can accept an eye-roll way more easier than a ranting human so it was win/win in our home.
I believe it's exhausting to argue - with anyone - not just an alcoholic. I much prefer reasoning out my grievances with another who's focused on solutions and moving forward. It would be a gift if that were family, but we're just not there so I find others instead. Keep doing you and consider all suggestions in recovery - you will find what works best for you. There is no perfect/right way to handle/heal/deal with the affects of this disease - you've got this!
Bo said
May 26, 2019
Excellent question SunnyFrogs. So common to hear about people struggling with this. I think at one time or another, much more than once, almost everyone has faced and struggled with this. So, in my experience, in all my years in the rooms of alanon, I always hear this topic inside of one context -- and that is -- we are "pulled into" or we are "dragged into" or "sucked in" and all of that. We hear that someone knows how to push out buttons. I always hear people say "he" or "she" -- and whatever the dynamic is -- the focal point is always the other person. So, we have to not get pulled in? The other person has to not push our buttons? The other person is not pushing my buttons...I am allowing my buttons to get pushed. I don't wear my buttons on the outside where someone can easily push them, or it is easy for me to allow them to be pushed.
That said, I have a different point of view and perspective. First, there have been many times where I was dragged into an argument. Or was I? It takes two. There is no argument without at least a second person. No one put a gun to my head. No one "forced" me. Very, very few people -- all you have to do is listen, on in this case read -- are willing to look at themselves and OWN their role. For me, my recovery, when I got better and was living the kind of life I wanted, and who I was being...if the argument happened...it was because I wanted it to! It was because of me! Sure, she dangled the bait. She attacked me on a topic or issue she knew I couldn't say no to...and I didn't...it was me. On me. My role.
Second, what do I do, how do I handle it when I am in it? Well, yes, while I get blamed, the blame is shifted to me, and yes, during these times, my role and my behavior is not good, not nice. But, it doesn't happen any longer. Why? Because in my experience, it's about my role, my contribution. So, I don't enable. I don't contribute to anything the alcoholic can do to perpetuate. I don't endorse, implied or otherwise. I don't do anything that would give someone else even the remotest idea, that I am OK with what they are doing. Remember, for me, just me, I don't accept unacceptable behavior. Remember, I am not having an argument, or a discussion with a rational person! They are not discussing something with me. Remember their approach!!! What they are doing!!! So, I am never, never, never going to say "You may be right" or anything like that. I am not going to re-engage at another time. Why? Because during these times, my wife was drunk, wasn't rational, wasn't normal, and no, she was never making a valid point! So, you may be right" was not the case! I am not going to get back to her. No, I am not going to participate in -- you're drunk, you can attack me, try and get me onto the roller coaster, accuse me, manipulate me, etc. -- and then later on when you are sober, come back to you and now discuss this. Sure, you can come back to me, but that's up to me. I feel I am giving the alcoholic the dignity to choose, on their own, when and how they can address a topic with me. Why do I control that? Drunk? Sober? I have my boundaries. I honor them. Most people don't.
Third, I am not going to say anything that is offensive, patronizing, condescending, or dismissive. I refuse to treat the alcoholic with disrespect. I refuse to not treat them with compassion. That's innate and visceral for me. I am not looking to push off the conversation in this mode or fashion. I am not looking for an instant replay. I would never say "You have a good point" or "Let me get back to you" or anything of the like. Because I am not going to do that. I might reinforce my boundary, but I am not going back to discuss something that the alcoholic tried engaging with me on when they were drunk. Remember...this was an argument or potential argument. I am not going back under that guise. That's my role! To me, for me, in my experience, that's the person who -- always wants to be right, needs to have the last word, wants to make their point, wants to be heard, and so on. That's not my goal. Check your motives. I know mine.
Lastly, at any wedding, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, communion, sweet 16, whatever -- at any event you go to -- just because the music is playing; that doesn't mean you have to be out on the dance floor dancing!!! People go out and dance when? When they hear a song they like!!! Think about it. I choose to go out and dance. I heard something and and I decided! Conscious or not. Blame or not. Take ownership! You can't be rational and apply rational thinking and behavior to an irrational person, behaviors, and situation. You don't hear a lot about checking your motives...because most people don't want to! Everyone talks about detachment, not enabling, boundaries, etc. -- because they can vacillate and justify the "wrong" for the "right" or the "unhealthy" for the "healthy" -- and it's easy to be right. LOL. I have always heard, from people in the program for decades, real legends in the program, people who achieved and lived a life most others admire and respect...it is about you. Nothing more. Nothing less. Your role, your contribution. You decide when to speak. When not to. You decide what "argument" to be in. Which one to not be in. Everything else...is about blame and justification. Wanting what I want. Being right? That's not the life I live today.
It's not easy. It's not supposed to be easy. The more I look at me, my role, my contribution...the better I get.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 26th of May 2019 06:31:37 PM
Bo said
May 26, 2019
And...very important...we should not beat ourselves up.
Go gentle unto ourselves.
tiredtonite said
May 26, 2019
Hi Sunnyfrogs,
When I find myself engaging in a senseless argument, it's typically about my own spiritual condition. At those times, I'm often in HALT - hungry, angry, lonely or tired. If I'm feeling ok I find it much easier to detach and not take things personally. When my serenity is somewhat compromised because of HALT, I tend to get in there and argue. I tend to forget "How Important is it?" My well-being always needs to come first but sometimes I don't make it my first priority. I hope today is a better day for you. ((hugs))) TT
SunnyFrogs said
May 26, 2019
Thanks for all the replies.There's too many to respond to individually but each one is greatly appreciated.
It sounds simple to not argue but it's definitely not easy.I think the hardest thing for me is when I am blamed for things that have nothing to do with me at all.I refuse to allow myself to be blamed but then when I defend myself the argument is worse than being blamed.
But people know when something is their own doing,their own fault,don't they? So I don't know why I have such a hard time saying nope,not my fault and then walking away from the conversation.
Iamhere said
May 26, 2019
It does require practice, practice and then even more practice....I hear you - it's not easy, but it gets easier with practice and repetition. I get blamed for a variety of things in my home, and I just refuse to pick up the rope and 'play' the tug of war games. I remember the first time I heard, 'going to the hardware store for bread' and that kind of sunk into my brain and helped me better understand that trying to have a reasonable, adult conversation with an alcoholic was not too much different. (((Hugs)))
Maresie889 said
May 26, 2019
I know one of my.core defects was that I wanted someone to take care of me. In the beginning in many relationships it seemed like I was taken care of. I always wanted to get back to.that place.
Arguing is sometimes very addictive. On.so many levels with the alcoholic I felt abandoned left out and betrayed. For me when I was arguing I could really believe I.was part of a relationship rather than a person looking on to the life the A created for himself.
Detachment.for me didn't feel like a very good skill I.wanted to acquire. I.wanted the A to go back to the way.they were before
I.did persevere with working on detachment. I find it a really useful skill today. The other tool I find extremely useful is resilience and not relying on others
I believe alcoholics are really good at projecting. These days when others project on me I dont necessarily have to buy into the projection. What other people think about me is really none of my.business.
Maresie
canadianguy said
May 27, 2019
Great question, and you've already been given many great replies....
For me, it boils down to the insanity part..... we need to remember that our A's (particularly when they are still active), are often NOT of sound mind, and their disease almost wants to pick a fight, so that they can remain in their chaos (and often drags you in as well).
Detachment is ultimately the answer, and "not engaging" them is so helpful for you......
My sponsor used to remind me of two tools to keep me focused, when my AW was trying hard to engage me into her chaos....
1. Think of your A with a big SSS stamped on their forehead, that stands for "sick, sick, sick"
2. Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?
For me, and I believe for many of us, the differentiation must be made between communication skills with an active A, versus the communication skills with a healthy person.... We all learn - from books, others, common sense, and even therapists - that good communication with healthy people involves empathy, openness, responsive listening, etc., etc..... These are all amazing tools, and help foster HEALTHY relationships.
When one half of the relationship is active in their addiction, the tools above not only don't work, but they can (and often will) be turned around and used against you..... most often to further or support their addiction.
In my experience..... Active A's can often be master manipulators, and it is lethal to their partners and loved ones..... The tools we learn in OUR program, tend to combat these manipulations, and put us on (at least) equal footing, and sometimes even put us a step or two ahead.....
One last point, in the name of 'gentle reflection'..... I was often reminded that my A did not "push my buttons", but that I "allowed my buttons to be pushed".
Food for thought
Tom
a4l said
May 28, 2019
I'd add triggers to that too. I'm not a morning person at all. The odds of me going off in the morning are pretty good on an average day but I try super super hard to remind myself in the moment that I am not rational and can not listen to my feelings for the first 45 minutes of being awake. To add another stressor to that stress is asking for it frankly. We all have our triggers knowing them and planning in advance ways to prevent relapse helps me a lot.
PosiesandPuppies said
May 28, 2019
A super good point, a4l!!!
When I learned about HALT, (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired) and my favorite... Hormonal (credit given to Serenity47!), I began to see that I was must more likely to "pick up the rope" with my spouse. Self-awareness helped a lot... another reason Al-Anon is really the key... the focus is on YOU...it helps you to uncover things about yourself you may have covered up, shoved to the side, etc!
Aloha said
May 28, 2019
I am sooooooo there with you, Sunny. My ex used to push my buttons very well, and even though I would come home from Al-Anon meetings thinking to myself "I will not engage!" sure enough, he'd say the right thing and my compulsion to be right would kick in.
I've heard the phrase "You may be right" suggested in the past, but that one rankles me. I am stubborn stubborn stubborn and I didn't want to give the A in my life any sort of feel of superiority over me (and he was a gloater). So, while that phrase works for some, it didn't work for me.
I had to stick with more neutral statements that were also suggested like
"hmmm"
"oh"
"i see"
"is that so?"
"Interesting"
I've also sat in complete silence and focused on being very present during a rant. This was really only possible for me during times where I was already feeling pretty secure and centered.
There were other times where I would just get up and leave the room or even the house. Leaving the house apparently triggered the A in some way because when I'd do that he would yell at me to not come back. I'd just calmly tell him "I'm just going for a walk. See you later."
But it does all take practice. And unfortunately these aren't comfortable lessons. At least they were never comfortable for me. It was like getting chucked into the deep end of the pool and being told to start swimming each time. I honestly didn't feel safe, but I KNEW I had to start doing something different because, like you, I didn't like the person I was being when I engaged negatively.
Remember through all of this your HP is there with you.
As was mentioned previously, be kind to yourself, too. You'll have good days and then you'll have bad ones. Point is that you're trying to be conscious of your behavior and you're working towards positive change. Progress, not perfection.
JerryF said
May 28, 2019
This is a great post and responses. I see it as skill building which is for me necessary. Skill building helps to keep me on top of how I live my life with a life threatening disease that doesn't have to negatively affect me much of or all of the time and also helps me be a positive factor that can and often will offset negatives and be supportive rather than an additional negative.
I like this post a lot. Mahalo (((((hugs)))))
Bo said
May 29, 2019
For some people....Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Change happens for two reasons...either we learn enough and make a decision to change, and we do...or the pain gets so great that we are forced to change.
So...When the frustration and pain of arguing become greater than the discomfort and pain of not arguing...that's when we stop arguing.
Riley3 said
Jun 11, 2019
It took me awhile not to engage in fighting or defending myself while he threw me under the bus projecting his unhappiness.
I was brought up to be polite and talk when spoken to. I must have been trained. It was hard to just ignore but I am learning it is best and because of their disease I can break my habit.
I felt people needed to have verbal validation when they are heard. I think all logical reasoning and normal conversation go out the door when dealing with an alcoholic.
I do not feel guilty when I ignore.. its as simple as that. Its called survivor skills.
SerenityRUS said
Jun 11, 2019
Something that came to mind is something my boyfriend and I joke about .. are you arguing with a fence post. I find I look pretty silly arguing with someone who is def not on the same page with me and we are talking two totally different languages. I am just as capable of being that fence post and locking into things that no longer work or I just don't want to deal with at the moment.
I am ultra logic driven .. come to find out that's a form of control .. lol .. I honestly would have made a great attorney .. most people start and I finish. How much energy have I expanded and was it really important? I don't know however I still fight the drive to be right. It's kind of loosing fight I have yet to find two people who fight to be right actually "win" anything except the boobie prize.
So sometimes I mentally remove myself from the conversation to just do a mental check .. what is the end result I am trying to achieve .. I have never lost my life realizing it was ego driven and letting it go. Is it important, like in 5 years am I going to care. Am I in defense mode and if that's the case I have permission to call a timeout and regroup so I can better handle the conversation. I realize with an active addict that's not always possible, sometimes no response is the right response.
What I have learned over the years is I have a RIGHT a basic simple RIGHT to take care of my mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health. I can choose to argue and I can choose to walk away. It's always going to be my choice. The other thing is .. am I really listening to the other person without listening with a response. I DO soooo much better when I listen .. I can hear if someone is hurting .. I can hear that it's really not about me .. when I just listen I able to be a better friend, partner, parent than listening with a reply in mind.
I still feel it comes back to let it begin with me .. and let it be without the expectation that someone is going to behave like I think they should behave.
big hugs S :)
Mattie said
Jun 11, 2019
You mention that you refuse to allow yourself to be blamed. My thought is that him blaming you is not the same as accepting the blame.
There's that Al-Anon saying "What people think of me is none of my business." Because the thing is that we can't control other people's thoughts. So they can think all kinds of crazy things about us, and we can't make them change their minds. They can think that we're responsible for the global stock market, or that we're space aliens, or that we're the cause of their drinking, or that we came home late because we wanted to make them mad. They're loopy thoughts, but we can't change them.
But if they accuse of us being space aliens, we can try arguing with a crazy person, or we can roll our eyes internally and let them have their crazy thoughts. "That's not the way I see it, but whatever." Or even better yet, just "Whatever."
The thing is that if they blame us for stuff, and we start arguing, we are engaged with them. Victory for them! They love that! They love turmoil, because it distracts from their own inner chaos, and from the fact that their drinking is a huge problem, even for them. And when we start arguing, then they can blame us for arguing! So we walk right into their trap. And whenever things get slow and quiet, they know they can get a little turmoil going just by blaming us for whatever is handy. Then we're arguing and it's off to the races!
The saying for this one is "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing." There were days when I probably recited this to myself a thousand times. I'd remember it for about 60 seconds, and then I'd start resisting. "I just have to explain to him that..." I'd start thinking. "He can't get away with saying..." "I'm outraged that he would even imply that...." "How can he say all that after all I've dealt with!" And I'd start to get pulled along on the fishhook again. But when I had figured out how much more peaceful it is to let go, that was a big victory for me.
JerryF said
Jun 11, 2019
I love this post even more now!! Thank you God for the wisdom on these pages and the family who brought it here. (((((hugs)))))
Maresie said
Jun 12, 2019
I most definitely have been feeling uftitable and discontent lately I think that is when I get into.the arguing
Knowing yourself is very good These days I take 100% responsibility for my.triggers. These days when I feel irritated I dony get into #shoulding# myself out of it.
When I get to the point of acceptance. there is a way to pit some space around it. Space is what helps move it to another level.
I do believe that not engaging is one of the cardinal rules.
.
Maresie
Carla61 said
Jun 20, 2019
This post is so interesting to me.
My AH always accused me of arguing with him. I do not! I disengage.
However, whatever I do say to him (not even a little argumentative) to him is an argument. He says that I belittle him and make him feel stupid. He is emotionally and verbally abusive to me.
Again, I ignore it because I know none of it is true.
He constantly threatens to divorce me and leave me with nothing.
I am not sure what more I can do! I'm at my wits end!
JerryF said
Jun 20, 2019
That is sad considering the situation can be much better with slowing down and thinking or considering what is actually going on. My wife and I are moving to another home and she has her motivation and urges on how things should go which happens in spite of my own and so a situation which could go smoothly can be come a tug and pull with hardly any effort at all. We bang into things and each other the outcomes of which neither of us like.
Some times I much assert my experiences and other times it is fine for her to take the lead.
Yesterday I stopped the grind and reminded her that we are in this program called the Al-Anon Family Group so that we can attain peace of mind and serenity without trying to have everything our way. She listened and got quiet and I listened with my eyes as to what affect my input was having. We both quieted our spirits and allowed each other to participate in the process which has been going on very well now.
Thank you HP for moving with us. ((((Hugs))))
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 21, 2019
Jerry, what a beautiful example of this program in action! Thank you for sharing this!
WildFlower said
Jun 23, 2019
I've been thinking for a long time of finding a place like this. Trouble was, I didn't know if it was the right place for me. I'm not religious, in fact I'm a refugee from severe fundamentalism. What led me to sign up and respond then? This thread. Thank you all for posting your thoughts here. They help. There have been numerous alcoholics and drug abusers in my life. The one who is bugging me now is my step-daughter. She's 48 going on 3 - 5. When I told my husband years back that I thought she was an alcoholic, he said, "She's always been like this. She thinks she's a princess and everything revolves around her." Off and on over the years my husband told her she could not call, because every time she did, she caused a fight. She can be oh so buttery and then turn the opposite. She drinks way too much and takes opiods for her supposed pain. I doubt she has any, or if she does from an injury, it's minor.
He limits her to calling every two weeks. I usually get on the phone with them...to make it easier for him. So recently for Father's Day I asked her via email to send back the picture of his mother, the one that was so special to him. I only knew of the one. She said she would. As the time neared she hadn't sent it, so I asked her if it would make it by Father's Day. She said she didn't have the money to send it, and said I should be more supportive and understanding. I told her that she wouldn't have this problem if she hadn't taken it without permission years ago, and I could send her the money to send it. Since she and her father had had conversations about that for years, I had no idea she would deny taking it (them). She exploded - in an email and denied she had stolen it. She turned me into the bad guy. Turns out she'd stolen a bunch of them, the only copies of those pictures. I shared the exchanges with my husband. She said not to share the exchanges with him. He planned to talk to her about it, via email. Then on Father's Day she did not call. She said she would call today.
Well, today if she calls I will not be part of that conversation. After 30 years I've learned she is not going to change. I've been extremely frustrated. So now, I have to figure out how to handle it all. Since she lives 1000 miles away that helps. But....
Bo said
Jun 25, 2019
When the tug of war initially starts...what happens if you...drop the rope!?!?!?
My sponsor used to ask me this all the time. I could "easily" not argue, not get sucked in, not get back on the rollercoaster, and not engage. But I always did. Why? I knew it wasn't good for me, I knew it wasn't healthy for me, I knew there was nothing good that would or could come from it. So, why did I?
I wanted to be right. I wanted to prove to her that she had a problem. I wanted to be heard. I wanted her to admit it was her fault. I wanted to be appreciated and understood. I wanted her to stop because if she stopped everything would be fine. I wanted her to understand how I felt. I wanted everything to be like it used to be. I wanted her to listen to me. I wanted her to see that what I wanted was best for her, for me, and for us. I wanted I wanted I wanted I wanted. Whatever it is that we say -- as the reason for arguing -- doesn't change the fact that it is not good and not healthy for us.
I was "proven" right numerous times in couples counselling. It didn't help. It didn't make her stop drinking. Sure, she said she would cut down, reduce, and so on. And now I am negotiating with an alcoholic. Not really negotiating, but I am in the muck and mire of counting drinks, watching her, her sneaking around, me stressing out, and so on. That's what we call negotiation. You are a policeman, judge and jury on an alcoholic's drinking. YOU CANNOT WIN THAT SCENARIO. I was heard, ad nauseum, but it didn't help. I always felt that one more time of me explaining, pleading, threatening, begging, proving, my next speech...that will be the one! It never was. I never felt completely heard, even though I was. Why? Because I didn't get the outcome I wanted.
Today, I live a happy and healthy life. My life is wonderful. Alanon can provide that, and more, if you truly want it to, and if you truly do the work.
El said
Jun 25, 2019
This is a phenomenal thread.
Bo, your post spoke my truth. Maybe the next lecture, pointing out how his drinking is s affecting all aspects of our life, one more piece of evidence, etc., etc., etc., will make the difference. NOPE.....my AH may be listening, but his disease isnt having any of it!
Ellen
SerenityRUS said
Jun 25, 2019
It took me a really long time to learn that it was ok to speak my truth, in speaking my truth I had to allow for the fact that the other person was fully entitled to their responses/reactions to what I say.
I am responsible for what I say - I am not responsible for how the other person responds.
This was an extremely scary thing for me because what that means is I have to let go of the outcome of how I think the other person should react. My fear is they will walk out the door.
The other thing is what my sponsor shared with me .. S .. it's ok to bring something up even to an active alcoholic .. after you bring it up the first time the reality are you trying to control, manipulate or manage everything after that. So I say something .. I say it one time, I come from my truth and then I have to manage my own boundaries regarding what's going on. Which basically comes down to do I mean what I say .. say what I mean and am I willing to allow the other person to have a response/reaction to it all.
So I really encourage anyone in dealing with a conversation with anyone to realize it's not just about the "me" in the situation .. the other person has responses that they are totally entitled to, it is everything about how the "me" in the situation responds to that issue.
Hugs S :)
WildFlower said
Jun 25, 2019
It's interesting to hear others say that they thought that if they explained enough, it would help and it didn't/doesn't. It's what I always thought. In this case if the gal was not my husband's daughter I would never talk to her again. I kept hoping that somehow I could make it better, for him. I had no need to be right. With my brother I had to cut him off entirely. It broke my heart to do that. I'll explain in a thread sometime about why he ended up in prison for horrific crimes and how it destroyed my parents. With my boyfriend, his drinking killed him. It gave him pancreatic cancer. If he hadn't gotten sick and died, I would have dumped him within the year. But with my husband's daughter I wanted to help. I tried to "fix" it. He said to me since I didn't break it, I couldn't fix it. This time I was trying to do something nice. I won't make that mistake with her again.
SunnyFrogs said
Jul 8, 2019
Since beginning this thread there's been many....many...many arguments.Actually it's been every day.Most of those days were spent with me beating myself up over it,having a meltdown and sobbing so hard because I just didn't want to keep arguing.I really got lost in all of it,have been feeling hopeless and defeated,and even feeling like life isn't worth living anymore.
But...yesterday,it all started,as usual.He was getting me all worked up with the things he was saying to me and I took a step back from what was going on to notice what I was really feeling.I felt physically sick and I was shaking inside.I felt so much rage that the thought of picking up a lamp or a table and smashing his head in seemed like a good idea(would never do it though).I was so frustrated because what he was saying had nothing to do with the conversation,it was just gaslighting.I did some deep breathing,said I wasn't doing this and walked away.The texts started though,if he can't push my buttons to my face he will try it through that means.
I read his texts and sent one back that said "I love you". Wow it stopped his BS instantly and he sent one back saying he loved me.I got busy doing other things and a few hours later he started in again.I just said "i'm not going to fight with you,I love you" and I walked away.
After everything I have tried,telling him I love him worked for me yesterday . It stopped him in his tracks,maybe because he was shocked by it?It stopped me in my tracks too and took away all the rage I was feeling towards him. it did make me feel sad though,because I do love him,and I did cry a little before going to sleep last night,feeling grief for who he once upon a time was before this disease changed him.But feeling sad like that was way better than how I have been feeling for so long.And I'm sure it's much better than smashing his head in.
I don't know if I will be able to keep doing that,telling him I love you amd walking away.I hpe I can though because doing it that way sure didn't make me feel like sh*t about myself for being pulled into an argument.
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Monday 8th of July 2019 06:06:53 AM
SerenityRUS said
Jul 8, 2019
Sunny,
Go to YouTube and look up Mary Pearl and Father Tom (alanon speakers) they will be in the Recovery Rescue or something of that nature.
You are so not alone and that doesn't make you "bad" or "defective" for getting into a fight with the alcoholic. Sometimes that kind of thing just happens, and beating yourself up isn't going to change anything, it's not going to fix the past. You do have an opportunity to change the future for YOU not for the Alcoholic .. however for YOU.
I'm currently trying to stay out of my XAH and the BS he's pulling at the moment. Even all these miles apart doesn't mean I want to be just as snarky to him as he is to me .. the nice thing about not having him in my face is I don't have to outwit him (as I always feel I need to) or to JADE my feelings because they are mine and no one gets to judge me for them as they aren't my tin God. I will have that private discussion with my HP in my own time.
I can only do better when I know how to do better.
I am trying SO hard to not get pulled into arguments with my AH.Some days it feels so easy and other days it's impossible.He knows exactly how to push my buttons and then once he does he tells me I'm the problem because of my out of control behavior.
I seriously can't take it anymore. I feel so bad about myself afterwards.It's like he brings out the worst in me.
How do I stop this madness?
Detachment worked foe me as well as a firm resolve to Not engage no matter what
Thank you for this post. I find I still want to explain my point of view, not necessarily to argue but to at least have a rational discussion. I am almost NEVER successful. Once the drinking is underway or its a sore spot topic, there is no rational discussion to be had. It is soooo difficult for me to not engage and I still instinctively do at times, so it takes lots of practice. Change the subject, leave the room, find an errand to run. Its not fair, but is less draining than the argument.
I totally hear you and understand fully! We all do!
Ellen
((((Sunnyfrogs))))
Yes, we have all been there! For many years I just thought if I just explained myself clearly, my spouse would understand my point of view. With Addiction, the only POV that is important is their OWN POV! I found that no amount of explanation, discussion, or facts allowed me to see the result I wanted... to be heard and respected! Forget about having a rational discussion! LOL! EVERYTHING was a catalyst for an argument. I walked around wondering what was wrong with me... why wasn't I enough for this marriage?
Then I really began embracing Al-Anon and it's principles. I researched Detachment, and learned the best responses. I learned about how not to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend & Explain). Just so you know, this was really hard for me to practice! Each time my spouse would have a "normal" lucid moment, I thought I could "make" him understand! It was the exact definition of Insanity! LOL! When I recognized I looked like the "crazy one," that is when the JADE concept clicked for me. I HAD to work on disengaging... for my own sanity! Then I found something called "Grey Rock'ing" - Google 'Grey Rock,' you'll find a lot of info- this worked well for me.
Of course, these self-preserving techniques made my spouse amp up his behaviors... so I began leaving the house when they did not work. Took my teenager with me whenever I could. Sometimes we just had to get out. When those times became more frequent, and when I read how my AH's behaviors were affecting my Kid (as well as his FUTURE SELF), I decided to separate and we left. Sounds fast & painless, but it was anything but.
In hindsight, I wish I would've done this so much earlier. But when we know better, we do better. And I had to really work on myself to get past the FEAR. That took awhile. I have accepted that my journey took the time it needed... I have made amends to my Kid, & of course he told me not to apologize, as "This wasn't my fault." I have since come to understand that I allowed many things because of my fear. I am still a work in progress!
This is my ESH (Experience, Strength, Hope)... take what you want, and leave the rest!
Wishing you peace this weekend... holidays were always tough for me with my drinking spouse, so I understand the difficulty of the weekend.
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Saturday 25th of May 2019 11:19:33 AM
Just thinking of your sign on "Sunny Frogs" is a great tool for me in this discussion. If I can see and continue to see that picture my attitude will alter toward sitting on the lily pad smiling in the warm sun on a glassy pool of water and offering just a "gribbit" to the world and the alcoholic.
My sponsor and I did good work and research in and on the subject of response versus react and now that I have a good experience about those two I rarely react. I have learned and decided I like the process of stopping, thinking and choosing a serene outcome much better than the consequences of just reacting in a way I do not like. It works when you work it. I'm working it cause in the last few days at times I wasn't.
Thanks for sharing with me and letting me share also. ((((Hugs))))
"Hummmm"
"You may be right"
"That's interesting"
"I hear you"
"I never thought of it that way"
"Let me think on that for a while and I'll get back to you"
There's more but those popped into my head in the moment. I have also sat perfectly silent and let another rant, rave, explain, defend, justify, etc. - if I choose to respond with no response, it does end quite fast - as pointed out above, it takes 2 for it to continue. Today, I really practice JADE - Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. I instead Detach and pray - often repeating in my head "Bless Them, Change Me".
As I worked hard to practice detaching, my guys resisted. They didn't like it when they could no longer affect my moods and reactions (push buttons) so tried harder. Remaining steadfast in my efforts and consistent has led to a completely different dynamic in our home. There are still flare-ups once in a while, but nothing like it used to be. The other day, my son was wanting to argue and I started to engage....I actually caught myself, and instead just said out loud, "You can be right and I choose to be happy!" He's been in/around recovery long enough to know that's from it and did an eye-roll and walked away...I can accept an eye-roll way more easier than a ranting human so it was win/win in our home.
I believe it's exhausting to argue - with anyone - not just an alcoholic. I much prefer reasoning out my grievances with another who's focused on solutions and moving forward. It would be a gift if that were family, but we're just not there so I find others instead. Keep doing you and consider all suggestions in recovery - you will find what works best for you. There is no perfect/right way to handle/heal/deal with the affects of this disease - you've got this!
Excellent question SunnyFrogs. So common to hear about people struggling with this. I think at one time or another, much more than once, almost everyone has faced and struggled with this. So, in my experience, in all my years in the rooms of alanon, I always hear this topic inside of one context -- and that is -- we are "pulled into" or we are "dragged into" or "sucked in" and all of that. We hear that someone knows how to push out buttons. I always hear people say "he" or "she" -- and whatever the dynamic is -- the focal point is always the other person. So, we have to not get pulled in? The other person has to not push our buttons? The other person is not pushing my buttons...I am allowing my buttons to get pushed. I don't wear my buttons on the outside where someone can easily push them, or it is easy for me to allow them to be pushed.
That said, I have a different point of view and perspective. First, there have been many times where I was dragged into an argument. Or was I? It takes two. There is no argument without at least a second person. No one put a gun to my head. No one "forced" me. Very, very few people -- all you have to do is listen, on in this case read -- are willing to look at themselves and OWN their role. For me, my recovery, when I got better and was living the kind of life I wanted, and who I was being...if the argument happened...it was because I wanted it to! It was because of me! Sure, she dangled the bait. She attacked me on a topic or issue she knew I couldn't say no to...and I didn't...it was me. On me. My role.
Second, what do I do, how do I handle it when I am in it? Well, yes, while I get blamed, the blame is shifted to me, and yes, during these times, my role and my behavior is not good, not nice. But, it doesn't happen any longer. Why? Because in my experience, it's about my role, my contribution. So, I don't enable. I don't contribute to anything the alcoholic can do to perpetuate. I don't endorse, implied or otherwise. I don't do anything that would give someone else even the remotest idea, that I am OK with what they are doing. Remember, for me, just me, I don't accept unacceptable behavior. Remember, I am not having an argument, or a discussion with a rational person! They are not discussing something with me. Remember their approach!!! What they are doing!!! So, I am never, never, never going to say "You may be right" or anything like that. I am not going to re-engage at another time. Why? Because during these times, my wife was drunk, wasn't rational, wasn't normal, and no, she was never making a valid point! So, you may be right" was not the case! I am not going to get back to her. No, I am not going to participate in -- you're drunk, you can attack me, try and get me onto the roller coaster, accuse me, manipulate me, etc. -- and then later on when you are sober, come back to you and now discuss this. Sure, you can come back to me, but that's up to me. I feel I am giving the alcoholic the dignity to choose, on their own, when and how they can address a topic with me. Why do I control that? Drunk? Sober? I have my boundaries. I honor them. Most people don't.
Third, I am not going to say anything that is offensive, patronizing, condescending, or dismissive. I refuse to treat the alcoholic with disrespect. I refuse to not treat them with compassion. That's innate and visceral for me. I am not looking to push off the conversation in this mode or fashion. I am not looking for an instant replay. I would never say "You have a good point" or "Let me get back to you" or anything of the like. Because I am not going to do that. I might reinforce my boundary, but I am not going back to discuss something that the alcoholic tried engaging with me on when they were drunk. Remember...this was an argument or potential argument. I am not going back under that guise. That's my role! To me, for me, in my experience, that's the person who -- always wants to be right, needs to have the last word, wants to make their point, wants to be heard, and so on. That's not my goal. Check your motives. I know mine.
Lastly, at any wedding, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, communion, sweet 16, whatever -- at any event you go to -- just because the music is playing; that doesn't mean you have to be out on the dance floor dancing!!! People go out and dance when? When they hear a song they like!!! Think about it. I choose to go out and dance. I heard something and and I decided! Conscious or not. Blame or not. Take ownership! You can't be rational and apply rational thinking and behavior to an irrational person, behaviors, and situation. You don't hear a lot about checking your motives...because most people don't want to! Everyone talks about detachment, not enabling, boundaries, etc. -- because they can vacillate and justify the "wrong" for the "right" or the "unhealthy" for the "healthy" -- and it's easy to be right. LOL. I have always heard, from people in the program for decades, real legends in the program, people who achieved and lived a life most others admire and respect...it is about you. Nothing more. Nothing less. Your role, your contribution. You decide when to speak. When not to. You decide what "argument" to be in. Which one to not be in. Everything else...is about blame and justification. Wanting what I want. Being right? That's not the life I live today.
It's not easy. It's not supposed to be easy. The more I look at me, my role, my contribution...the better I get.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 26th of May 2019 06:31:37 PM
Go gentle unto ourselves.
Hi Sunnyfrogs,
When I find myself engaging in a senseless argument, it's typically about my own spiritual condition. At those times, I'm often in HALT - hungry, angry, lonely or tired. If I'm feeling ok I find it much easier to detach and not take things personally. When my serenity is somewhat compromised because of HALT, I tend to get in there and argue. I tend to forget "How Important is it?" My well-being always needs to come first but sometimes I don't make it my first priority. I hope today is a better day for you. ((hugs))) TT
Thanks for all the replies.There's too many to respond to individually but each one is greatly appreciated.
It sounds simple to not argue but it's definitely not easy.I think the hardest thing for me is when I am blamed for things that have nothing to do with me at all.I refuse to allow myself to be blamed but then when I defend myself the argument is worse than being blamed.
But people know when something is their own doing,their own fault,don't they? So I don't know why I have such a hard time saying nope,not my fault and then walking away from the conversation.
Great question, and you've already been given many great replies....
For me, it boils down to the insanity part..... we need to remember that our A's (particularly when they are still active), are often NOT of sound mind, and their disease almost wants to pick a fight, so that they can remain in their chaos (and often drags you in as well).
Detachment is ultimately the answer, and "not engaging" them is so helpful for you......
My sponsor used to remind me of two tools to keep me focused, when my AW was trying hard to engage me into her chaos....
1. Think of your A with a big SSS stamped on their forehead, that stands for "sick, sick, sick"
2. Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?
For me, and I believe for many of us, the differentiation must be made between communication skills with an active A, versus the communication skills with a healthy person.... We all learn - from books, others, common sense, and even therapists - that good communication with healthy people involves empathy, openness, responsive listening, etc., etc..... These are all amazing tools, and help foster HEALTHY relationships.
When one half of the relationship is active in their addiction, the tools above not only don't work, but they can (and often will) be turned around and used against you..... most often to further or support their addiction.
In my experience..... Active A's can often be master manipulators, and it is lethal to their partners and loved ones..... The tools we learn in OUR program, tend to combat these manipulations, and put us on (at least) equal footing, and sometimes even put us a step or two ahead.....
One last point, in the name of 'gentle reflection'..... I was often reminded that my A did not "push my buttons", but that I "allowed my buttons to be pushed".
Food for thought
Tom
When I learned about HALT, (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired) and my favorite... Hormonal (credit given to Serenity47!), I began to see that I was must more likely to "pick up the rope" with my spouse. Self-awareness helped a lot... another reason Al-Anon is really the key... the focus is on YOU...it helps you to uncover things about yourself you may have covered up, shoved to the side, etc!
I've heard the phrase "You may be right" suggested in the past, but that one rankles me. I am stubborn stubborn stubborn and I didn't want to give the A in my life any sort of feel of superiority over me (and he was a gloater). So, while that phrase works for some, it didn't work for me.
I had to stick with more neutral statements that were also suggested like
"hmmm"
"oh"
"i see"
"is that so?"
"Interesting"
I've also sat in complete silence and focused on being very present during a rant. This was really only possible for me during times where I was already feeling pretty secure and centered.
There were other times where I would just get up and leave the room or even the house. Leaving the house apparently triggered the A in some way because when I'd do that he would yell at me to not come back. I'd just calmly tell him "I'm just going for a walk. See you later."
But it does all take practice. And unfortunately these aren't comfortable lessons. At least they were never comfortable for me. It was like getting chucked into the deep end of the pool and being told to start swimming each time. I honestly didn't feel safe, but I KNEW I had to start doing something different because, like you, I didn't like the person I was being when I engaged negatively.
Remember through all of this your HP is there with you.
As was mentioned previously, be kind to yourself, too. You'll have good days and then you'll have bad ones. Point is that you're trying to be conscious of your behavior and you're working towards positive change. Progress, not perfection.
This is a great post and responses. I see it as skill building which is for me necessary. Skill building helps to keep me on top of how I live my life with a life threatening disease that doesn't have to negatively affect me much of or all of the time and also helps me be a positive factor that can and often will offset negatives and be supportive rather than an additional negative.
I like this post a lot. Mahalo (((((hugs)))))
Change happens for two reasons...either we learn enough and make a decision to change, and we do...or the pain gets so great that we are forced to change.
So...When the frustration and pain of arguing become greater than the discomfort and pain of not arguing...that's when we stop arguing.
I am ultra logic driven .. come to find out that's a form of control .. lol .. I honestly would have made a great attorney .. most people start and I finish. How much energy have I expanded and was it really important? I don't know however I still fight the drive to be right. It's kind of loosing fight I have yet to find two people who fight to be right actually "win" anything except the boobie prize.
So sometimes I mentally remove myself from the conversation to just do a mental check .. what is the end result I am trying to achieve .. I have never lost my life realizing it was ego driven and letting it go. Is it important, like in 5 years am I going to care. Am I in defense mode and if that's the case I have permission to call a timeout and regroup so I can better handle the conversation. I realize with an active addict that's not always possible, sometimes no response is the right response.
What I have learned over the years is I have a RIGHT a basic simple RIGHT to take care of my mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health. I can choose to argue and I can choose to walk away. It's always going to be my choice. The other thing is .. am I really listening to the other person without listening with a response. I DO soooo much better when I listen .. I can hear if someone is hurting .. I can hear that it's really not about me .. when I just listen I able to be a better friend, partner, parent than listening with a reply in mind.
I still feel it comes back to let it begin with me .. and let it be without the expectation that someone is going to behave like I think they should behave.
big hugs S :)
You mention that you refuse to allow yourself to be blamed. My thought is that him blaming you is not the same as accepting the blame.
There's that Al-Anon saying "What people think of me is none of my business." Because the thing is that we can't control other people's thoughts. So they can think all kinds of crazy things about us, and we can't make them change their minds. They can think that we're responsible for the global stock market, or that we're space aliens, or that we're the cause of their drinking, or that we came home late because we wanted to make them mad. They're loopy thoughts, but we can't change them.
But if they accuse of us being space aliens, we can try arguing with a crazy person, or we can roll our eyes internally and let them have their crazy thoughts. "That's not the way I see it, but whatever." Or even better yet, just "Whatever."
The thing is that if they blame us for stuff, and we start arguing, we are engaged with them. Victory for them! They love that! They love turmoil, because it distracts from their own inner chaos, and from the fact that their drinking is a huge problem, even for them. And when we start arguing, then they can blame us for arguing! So we walk right into their trap. And whenever things get slow and quiet, they know they can get a little turmoil going just by blaming us for whatever is handy. Then we're arguing and it's off to the races!
The saying for this one is "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing." There were days when I probably recited this to myself a thousand times. I'd remember it for about 60 seconds, and then I'd start resisting. "I just have to explain to him that..." I'd start thinking. "He can't get away with saying..." "I'm outraged that he would even imply that...." "How can he say all that after all I've dealt with!" And I'd start to get pulled along on the fishhook again. But when I had figured out how much more peaceful it is to let go, that was a big victory for me.
I love this post even more now!! Thank you God for the wisdom on these pages and the family who brought it here. (((((hugs)))))
I most definitely have been feeling uftitable and discontent lately I think that is when I get into.the arguing
Knowing yourself is very good These days I take 100% responsibility for my.triggers. These days when I feel irritated I dony get into #shoulding# myself out of it.
When I get to the point of acceptance. there is a way to pit some space around it. Space is what helps move it to another level.
I do believe that not engaging is one of the cardinal rules.
.
Maresie
That is sad considering the situation can be much better with slowing down and thinking or considering what is actually going on. My wife and I are moving to another home and she has her motivation and urges on how things should go which happens in spite of my own and so a situation which could go smoothly can be come a tug and pull with hardly any effort at all. We bang into things and each other the outcomes of which neither of us like.
Some times I much assert my experiences and other times it is fine for her to take the lead.
Yesterday I stopped the grind and reminded her that we are in this program called the Al-Anon Family Group so that we can attain peace of mind and serenity without trying to have everything our way. She listened and got quiet and I listened with my eyes as to what affect my input was having. We both quieted our spirits and allowed each other to participate in the process which has been going on very well now.
Thank you HP for moving with us. ((((Hugs))))
I've been thinking for a long time of finding a place like this. Trouble was, I didn't know if it was the right place for me. I'm not religious, in fact I'm a refugee from severe fundamentalism. What led me to sign up and respond then? This thread. Thank you all for posting your thoughts here. They help. There have been numerous alcoholics and drug abusers in my life. The one who is bugging me now is my step-daughter. She's 48 going on 3 - 5. When I told my husband years back that I thought she was an alcoholic, he said, "She's always been like this. She thinks she's a princess and everything revolves around her." Off and on over the years my husband told her she could not call, because every time she did, she caused a fight. She can be oh so buttery and then turn the opposite. She drinks way too much and takes opiods for her supposed pain. I doubt she has any, or if she does from an injury, it's minor.
He limits her to calling every two weeks. I usually get on the phone with them...to make it easier for him. So recently for Father's Day I asked her via email to send back the picture of his mother, the one that was so special to him. I only knew of the one. She said she would. As the time neared she hadn't sent it, so I asked her if it would make it by Father's Day. She said she didn't have the money to send it, and said I should be more supportive and understanding. I told her that she wouldn't have this problem if she hadn't taken it without permission years ago, and I could send her the money to send it. Since she and her father had had conversations about that for years, I had no idea she would deny taking it (them). She exploded - in an email and denied she had stolen it. She turned me into the bad guy. Turns out she'd stolen a bunch of them, the only copies of those pictures. I shared the exchanges with my husband. She said not to share the exchanges with him. He planned to talk to her about it, via email. Then on Father's Day she did not call. She said she would call today.
Well, today if she calls I will not be part of that conversation. After 30 years I've learned she is not going to change. I've been extremely frustrated. So now, I have to figure out how to handle it all. Since she lives 1000 miles away that helps. But....
My sponsor used to ask me this all the time. I could "easily" not argue, not get sucked in, not get back on the rollercoaster, and not engage. But I always did. Why? I knew it wasn't good for me, I knew it wasn't healthy for me, I knew there was nothing good that would or could come from it. So, why did I?
I wanted to be right. I wanted to prove to her that she had a problem. I wanted to be heard. I wanted her to admit it was her fault. I wanted to be appreciated and understood. I wanted her to stop because if she stopped everything would be fine. I wanted her to understand how I felt. I wanted everything to be like it used to be. I wanted her to listen to me. I wanted her to see that what I wanted was best for her, for me, and for us. I wanted I wanted I wanted I wanted. Whatever it is that we say -- as the reason for arguing -- doesn't change the fact that it is not good and not healthy for us.
I was "proven" right numerous times in couples counselling. It didn't help. It didn't make her stop drinking. Sure, she said she would cut down, reduce, and so on. And now I am negotiating with an alcoholic. Not really negotiating, but I am in the muck and mire of counting drinks, watching her, her sneaking around, me stressing out, and so on. That's what we call negotiation. You are a policeman, judge and jury on an alcoholic's drinking. YOU CANNOT WIN THAT SCENARIO. I was heard, ad nauseum, but it didn't help. I always felt that one more time of me explaining, pleading, threatening, begging, proving, my next speech...that will be the one! It never was. I never felt completely heard, even though I was. Why? Because I didn't get the outcome I wanted.
Today, I live a happy and healthy life. My life is wonderful. Alanon can provide that, and more, if you truly want it to, and if you truly do the work.
This is a phenomenal thread.
Bo, your post spoke my truth. Maybe the next lecture, pointing out how his drinking is s affecting all aspects of our life, one more piece of evidence, etc., etc., etc., will make the difference. NOPE.....my AH may be listening, but his disease isnt having any of it!
Ellen
I am responsible for what I say - I am not responsible for how the other person responds.
This was an extremely scary thing for me because what that means is I have to let go of the outcome of how I think the other person should react. My fear is they will walk out the door.
The other thing is what my sponsor shared with me .. S .. it's ok to bring something up even to an active alcoholic .. after you bring it up the first time the reality are you trying to control, manipulate or manage everything after that. So I say something .. I say it one time, I come from my truth and then I have to manage my own boundaries regarding what's going on. Which basically comes down to do I mean what I say .. say what I mean and am I willing to allow the other person to have a response/reaction to it all.
So I really encourage anyone in dealing with a conversation with anyone to realize it's not just about the "me" in the situation .. the other person has responses that they are totally entitled to, it is everything about how the "me" in the situation responds to that issue.
Hugs S :)
It's interesting to hear others say that they thought that if they explained enough, it would help and it didn't/doesn't. It's what I always thought. In this case if the gal was not my husband's daughter I would never talk to her again. I kept hoping that somehow I could make it better, for him. I had no need to be right. With my brother I had to cut him off entirely. It broke my heart to do that. I'll explain in a thread sometime about why he ended up in prison for horrific crimes and how it destroyed my parents. With my boyfriend, his drinking killed him. It gave him pancreatic cancer. If he hadn't gotten sick and died, I would have dumped him within the year. But with my husband's daughter I wanted to help. I tried to "fix" it. He said to me since I didn't break it, I couldn't fix it. This time I was trying to do something nice. I won't make that mistake with her again.
Since beginning this thread there's been many....many...many arguments.Actually it's been every day.Most of those days were spent with me beating myself up over it,having a meltdown and sobbing so hard because I just didn't want to keep arguing.I really got lost in all of it,have been feeling hopeless and defeated,and even feeling like life isn't worth living anymore.
But...yesterday,it all started,as usual.He was getting me all worked up with the things he was saying to me and I took a step back from what was going on to notice what I was really feeling.I felt physically sick and I was shaking inside.I felt so much rage that the thought of picking up a lamp or a table and smashing his head in seemed like a good idea(would never do it though).I was so frustrated because what he was saying had nothing to do with the conversation,it was just gaslighting.I did some deep breathing,said I wasn't doing this and walked away.The texts started though,if he can't push my buttons to my face he will try it through that means.
I read his texts and sent one back that said "I love you". Wow it stopped his BS instantly and he sent one back saying he loved me.I got busy doing other things and a few hours later he started in again.I just said "i'm not going to fight with you,I love you" and I walked away.
After everything I have tried,telling him I love him worked for me yesterday . It stopped him in his tracks,maybe because he was shocked by it?It stopped me in my tracks too and took away all the rage I was feeling towards him. it did make me feel sad though,because I do love him,and I did cry a little before going to sleep last night,feeling grief for who he once upon a time was before this disease changed him.But feeling sad like that was way better than how I have been feeling for so long.And I'm sure it's much better than smashing his head in.
I don't know if I will be able to keep doing that,telling him I love you amd walking away.I hpe I can though because doing it that way sure didn't make me feel like sh*t about myself for being pulled into an argument.
-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Monday 8th of July 2019 06:06:53 AM
Go to YouTube and look up Mary Pearl and Father Tom (alanon speakers) they will be in the Recovery Rescue or something of that nature.
You are so not alone and that doesn't make you "bad" or "defective" for getting into a fight with the alcoholic. Sometimes that kind of thing just happens, and beating yourself up isn't going to change anything, it's not going to fix the past. You do have an opportunity to change the future for YOU not for the Alcoholic .. however for YOU.
I'm currently trying to stay out of my XAH and the BS he's pulling at the moment. Even all these miles apart doesn't mean I want to be just as snarky to him as he is to me .. the nice thing about not having him in my face is I don't have to outwit him (as I always feel I need to) or to JADE my feelings because they are mine and no one gets to judge me for them as they aren't my tin God. I will have that private discussion with my HP in my own time.
I can only do better when I know how to do better.
Hugs S :)