So, today is day #3 my AH has not left his chair all day or night. Wait, I take that back.....he gets up to smoke or get a beer or go to the bathroom. No errands, no activity, nothing.
Monday didn't bother me because we had a fairly busy weekend and I knew he would take the day to "unwind."
Tuesday didn't bother me because it just didn't bother me.....I kept busy with my own activities and was happy to do so. I had detached from his proclamations of what he was going to do and then sit there all day and night.
Today...Wednesday....I am just plain disgusted. I am not saying anything because I am TRYING to stay on my side of the street. I am TRYING not to be judgmental of his choices and how he spends his time. I am TRYING to refrain from asking about all the things he wanted to accomplish yesterday and now today.
So, what is the difference? I still had errands and activities today. I have plenty to fill my time. Why can I detach some days and other days I am ready to gnaw through cement over his behaviors?
I have read literature, I have written in my journal, I have included things I enjoy in my day. Why can't I detach today? I know there is a whole other post on the subject of detachment with much helpful ESH. I find it interesting that I can glide through some days without barely glancing over my shoulder at what he's up to (or not). Somedays, not so much.
Ellen
hotrod said
May 15, 2019
Go out of the house get to a meeting -- go shopping, see a friend for coffee I have experienced the same behavior and that helped me . You are not alone
Iamhere said
May 15, 2019
Heya Ellen - so very sorry that you're struggling to detach on day 3! I too have been there and my sponsor always reminds me that I am human and far from perfect. She suggests I focus on what's better/working better vs. what's wrong with me when I struggle to find a tool that's working. I often find that gratitude really does help me switch up my focus, even if it's temporary.
I so agree with Betty - outings are helpful too. I love going for a walk or working in the garden too - digging in the dirt always feels good to my soul! You aren't alone and being human is natural! (((Hugs)))
Riley3 said
May 16, 2019
The instability that surrounds addiction just plain makes me crazy. Looney Tunes. How many times does my AH have to go to the grocery store and not come back until 4 hours later. Yes, he is going out to drink. He thinks he is fooling everyone. This used to drive me nuts until I learned he is going to do whatever he wants because the addiction is driving him to go, go, go. I get out of his way. I hate lying. Now, I say see you. I think it bothers him that I dont care where he goes. To me, its detachment, or pulling away. He will drag me into conversations just to fight about something. Now, I agree to whatever he says to end the conversations. I get to walk away happy. I dont have to be his parent to tell him what he is doing is wrong. He is big enough to know. There is no togetherness with an addict. I think I spent most of my time trying to fit him into the slot of a good husband. It is not possible. I think I felt so free when I let go of any possible relationship. I make relationships with friends and my kids.
What I do that helps me is just try not to be in the same room or near the addict. He walks in, I walk out. I found that he lies when he talks which I hate. He tells stories that makes him look grand that is not true. He tries to project his anger and sadness to me. Why do I want to listen to him? How do I fix this so I feel better. I am not his fixed audience. This helps me to be contained in my stable world. It keeps me from getting mad because I dont have anything that bothers me. The more I interact with the alcoholic the more crazy I get. This seems to work for me. I dont get those intrusion thoughts of he did this or acted that way. My thoughts are flooding with what am I going to do today.
I know when I start acting crazy that I am spending too much time around the addict. I started taking walks, hikes, exploring towns, hanging out coffee shops, library, or going walking in the mall. I started going to the gym as my escape. I have lose so much weight. I learned to lift weights. I have a killer figure now. I started carrying my camera to take pictures.
The addict loses so much but he doesnt care. I thought he did. This was an eye opener for me. He cares about making himself feel better to evade the withdrawal effects. This is his driving force. He will do anything to this end.
el-cee said
May 16, 2019
I can so relate to your post. That whole idea of knowing how to detach and it works then it doesn't.
I have had a similar experience, not with an active ah but within a relationship that I just cant get comfortable with and I try and try and have tried now for a long time and I get RELIEF from detaching but it can be fleeting and then i'm back in resentment and I have to go through the whole process you have described again, the reading, journal, praying, sharing with my sponsor and then i get the relief all over again and I'm back on and off the merrygoround.
Ive recently had a spiritual awakening (i think it could be called that) an aha moment when it clicked into place for me. While I've been going through this constant cycle I've been thinking I just need to know more, do more of my program, hand it over, let go, try harder and none of that has worked for long, again just the intermittent relief and then I thought i need stronger boundaries and I have rock solid boundaries and still just the intermittent relief until the acceptance truly came for me. I finally saw the reality of my relationship and that I was trying to join someone on their path and that path doesnt fit me and they were trying to coma along my path and my path doesnt fit them. We dont fit and nothing I do will ever change that basic fundamental fact. Its like a surrender. I finally surrendered the fight and the battle is over for me. I feel true serenity for the first time ina long while around my relationship, ive finally accepted reality.
Sounds so simple and obvious but I think for me i was trying to force the 3 A's - Awareness, was easy, I will study it until i know in an obsessive way, lol. The Action part, yes lots of actions, reading step work etc but I wasnt fully accepting the basic fact. My partner wants to live this way and I want to live that way. I cant live his way and he cant live mine. Basic step 1 but the torture of getting to this point for me has been brutal, for me it always is a fight.
There is a really good reading on surrender in the ODAT pg 135, it talks about the difference between submission and surrender. Its all about the conscious and unconscious mind. For me I could see that for the last few years Ive been trying to get to acceptance but really I was submitting and its only now I have surrendered and the difference is huge. Although, Im not sure if its a process and you can take action to get there quicker, it took me almost 4 years from knowing to accepting and surrendering. Is it my ego that has been telling me there is a way and I will find it until i must accept there is no way and i must accept.
Now Ive got to surrender Im not sure what action is appropriate if any in my new found surrender, Im thinking im just going to enjoy the surrender for a while and see what happens but its melted away those horrible unrealistic expectations that just haunted me over and over.
I hope this helps.
el-cee said
May 16, 2019
Can I just add something further? This struggle with reality seems to be us alanon people's symptom. We want things the way we want things and feel its completely reasonable to get them the way we want them, our way is of course the right proper way!!!! This is our ego talking I think.
Im getting to the point that I dont think there is a living soul alive who is 'on my path.' Its my path and so that means everyone else is on theirs, so its the meeting in the middle maybe? I dont know. Im thinking that actually there is a thing person whatever on my path and in my path and wants to be and its my higher power and that is it so im getting closer to the idea that im on the right path and so is everybody else and i just need to know i have my higher power with me always and then I can decide what to do about other humans and their own paths. The alcoholics path is not an easy one to be alongside, its ugly and smelly and sad and funny at times and brutal. Personally, for me, that path is soul destroying for me, too much, i surrendered that one a while ago. It has the power to put me and my mind under a black cloud. Maybe with a really strong connection to a higher power even that path is doable but im not there yet. I send you my thoughts and prayers.
Maybe suggestion is maybe stop trying trying trying, it could be forcing and its not working. Maybe try reading up on acceptance, try acceptance over and over for a while, see if it makes a difference.
-- Edited by el-cee on Thursday 16th of May 2019 08:28:17 AM
Aloha said
May 16, 2019
This reminds me of a recent meeting topic on acceptance.
I know I find it difficult to detach when I'm not in a place of acceptance.
Until I can get to that place, I also had to do what Betty suggested. I got out of the house. Frequently. I went to meetings often. Participated in fellowship and service. I also had two jobs - one full-time and one part-time. I didn't NEED the part-time job, but it was a good excuse for me to be out and away from the alcoholic while he was drinking. Out of sight, out of mind, as they say.
El said
May 16, 2019
Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses! They have all given me much to think about and apply.
Betty, you are right....when I can no longer stand what is happening, I need to get out of the house. Getting out of the room simply is not enough sometimes. I am making a list of places and activities I could do when I need my escape.....finding a meeting at the forefront.
IAH, thank you for the reminder that my progress will not always be perfect, that I am not perfect and to concentrate on the positive. In this case, it took me till day 3 to think I was going to lose it! It used to be it would be day #1 I would be impatient with his lack of motivation to do anything at all. I have tools and now that the weather is getting nicer (kind of) it will be easier to just simply go outside and putter.....breath in fresh air and dig in the soil.
Riley, I love how taking care of you....how you thought "what am I going to do today?" led to weight loss and a healthier you! Also, your comment about trying to "fit him into a the slot of being a good husband...." My AH is a good man under a bad disease, but I do find myself trying (again) to fit him into the slot or mold of the ideal husband.....constantly downplaying the severity of his condition to others.
el-cee.....yes....you have perfectly described my cycle over and over again. I have gotten glimpses of surrender....but they don't last. The darn cycle. Your statements about trying to join each other on our paths and they just don't fit (!) really hit me hard. That is the perfect description for I once thought we WERE on the same path. However, even if alcohol wasn't a factor.....people change, interests change, energy levels change, the aging process changes us as well. I have also been submitting and not surrendering. This is something I need to truly absorb.....we are no longer on the same path....only in moments when we do things that we still enjoy together.
Aloha, you are right....when I am not in the space of acceptance there is no way I can detach. So, surrender leads to acceptance which leads to detachment.
Thank you again all for very valuable ESH. You have given me much to think about, re-read and absorb.
Hugs! Ellen
PosiesandPuppies said
May 16, 2019
((((El)))))
I have SO BEEN THERE!! I found that when I had down-time, I would obsess over what my AH was doing, not doing, what he was saying he was going to do. It drove me crazy!! I was told not to have ANY expectations... but I found that to be difficult, as we were living/parenting as a TEAM. Or at least I thought that was how we gave our vows to each other so long ago... it was not what my reality was though!
I think what el-cee shared was truly on point. Acceptance was the key for me as well. Both Acceptance for where my life and marriage was at (not how I wished it would be), and for what I would allow in my life moving forward. You see, I was always looking back... back to "how it was"... back to the "good times"... back to when I thought I felt happy. That behavior of mine kept me stuck!
Please don't beat yourself up for being disgusted by your spouse's behavior... I remember all too well my feelings of complete loathing for my spouse... so you are not alone! I think I lived that last year together trying everything I knew of to keep busy and out of the house/proximity of my spouse -practicing detachment. I found that for me, it was not a long-term solution. More work on me, revealed that I needed to accept that I could not live beside Addiction. Only then could I move forward. It has been a bumpy road.
Wishing you peace, today El.
El said
May 16, 2019
Thank you PnP! Yes, I understand how one comes to the decision to not live with addiction anymore. Perhaps it is my age and stage in life, but I don't want to leave in a permanent way. I want us to live out our lives together the best we can. I feel so fortunate in so many ways and I would have life lessons....some painful no matter what.
Thank you for understanding and validating my feelings at times and how frustrating it can be. I know though that I need to work on me....not him....as much as I think I know what his life SHOULD look like! LOL. He has said to me many times that he is perfectly content watching TV all day; it doesn't bother him at all. At times I can't accept that....how could someone want to waste their life by watching the made up lives of others all day long?! I don't get it. However, he is speaking his truth and I need to accept it....bottom line. It is also sad to watch him physically deteriorate, but I need to accept his reluctance of getting better too.
It helps so much to know that we all "get it" and work on ourselves with different journeys!
Hugs to you! Ellen
JerryF said
May 16, 2019
OH El you have received gold from the elders on MIP which has caused me to feel hopeful for you. It was the elders of the program in Central CA. that did the same for me and boy were they patient and watchful as I spent the necessary time to practice, practice, practice after listening, listening, listening. This program works and it takes courage and dedication to work it. Keep on keeping on sister...miracles are coming. ((((hugs)))) .and Mahalo MIP. (((((hugs)))))
El said
May 16, 2019
Thank you, Jerry! Gold indeed!
Blessings,
Ellen
Iamhere said
May 16, 2019
Ellen - my AH is 68 - soon to be 69. He retired @ 65 and is still trying to figure it all out. We still live with 4 seasons, so he's very dormant during winter which really isn't healthy as he's got heart disease. I am busy, active - even a bit hyper by many other's view. I have always been energetic and have never slept well. It is what it is!
When his heart disease came to light, he was seriously considering not having life saving surgery. This was the craziest thinking to me at the time...I just struggled to understand how one could/would opt out of life extending surgery. Of course, the surgery had risks and the recovery was extensive which caused him pause. What I learned was we were both looking at it from our 'frame of reference'. My parents are still alive - 83 soon to be 84 - so based on what I know/family genes, I would certainly accept life saving/extending surgery at 60. His parents, both gone, died early - 50 and 51 - cancer and heart disease. For him, making it to 60 was a gift and he felt he was already on 'borrowed time'.
This experience, more than any other in our marriage, really helped me understand and respect that we are very different about many things as well as how we see life - quality, quantity, etc. When we talked it out, I fully came to respect his processing and was prepared to support whatever decision he made. He did decide to have the surgery and is still here and feels way better than he did before but he almost opted out and was willing to check out.
We are all uniquely made and uniquely imperfect. Accepting others is really freeing, even when we don't fully understand or like it! Great thread and thanks for sharing with us!
Bo said
May 17, 2019
Ellen, one thing that resonates with me is -- Nothing changes if nothing changes. That said, it sounds like you are doing all the "right" things as it relates to your AH...but my sponsor always said..."what about you?" He does that he does...you do what you do...and then what? Are there consequences to his actions or lack of actions?
So, you are disgusted. You don't say anything -- but what about you? That disgust sits, stews, and perhaps manifests. At least that's what it did with me. Staying on our side of the street is about our physical and emotional self...it relates to interaction and dialogue with the other person...but what about self and where we are in our head-space. It's great to not say anything, but not if we are boiling and boiling and boiling over on the inside. That! Is our problem. The "all the things he wanted to accomplish yesterday and now today" thing also resonates with me! Big time!!! LOL. I used to say I was detaching, not engaging, staying on my side of the street, and so on. I was making all the right moves, doing all the right things -- but I was screaming and raging on the inside!!! Who am I to say something about what she wanted to accomplish? So, I didn't say anything, but it was there, in my head!!! Taking up space in my head!!!
I too could easily gnaw through cement over my wife's behaviors! So, what does all this mean. It really is -- for me -- about me. Acceptance is just not there. Not today. Go back Bo, back to Step One, go back to ACCEPTANCE. You either have it or you don't. Sure, people will say you have it and you have a bad day, or you have a slip. But that's more circumstantial than mindset or frame of mind. Only you know you! And your sponsor! It's also about Step Two, surrender. True surrender. The expectations, norms, whatever exists in the world...may not exist here...because we are talking about an alcoholic. One can rationalize all they want to, talk about different people with different ways of thinking, different shoes too, LOL -- but -- all the BS aside, we are talking about an alcoholic. 'Nuff said.
Why you can or can't do anything...is about you. I go to meetings for me. Not to settle, make bearable, make tolerable, not to learn to accept unacceptable behavior, and so on. I go for me. I go for me to get better. Not worse.
El said
May 17, 2019
IAH, thank you for the share on your H's surgery and how his perception....just simple perception led to such different points of view. It helped me to see once again that my AH and I do see things very differently. He sees his retirement as a rest after decades of back breaking work....a deserved rest to do whatever he pleases and he enjoys old shows and movies. My take on retirement is the opportunity to do what I want by exploring new things and spending time on all I didn't have time or energy for while working. We are both enjoying retirement, but our perception and outlook is different.
I tend to blame everything on alcohol. I do believe alcohol is a factor for sure.....but if he were to stop drinking....how do I know he still wouldn't want to spend a good part of the day in front of the TV? There's a good chance he would. Different upbringings, different careers, different contentment.
Bo, I hear you for sure. While I was trying not to say anything because it doesn't help or change anything, it still was driving me nuts and driving me to boil. I agree that the meetings, everything alanon is for me. It is about me and my recovery. However, the residue from that does help to make things bearable, tolerable, acceptable. Fortunately (?) for me I am not wrestling of whether to stay or go. Unless violence or some other totally unacceptable behavior (to me) occurs, I don't plan on making a move from our marriage. That being said, I agree that somedays acceptance is just not there. Time to head back to the first steps to surrender once again. Time to up the meetings, phone calls. Thank you for your views and ESH.
Bo said
May 17, 2019
Ellen, I hear you. I really do. The logistics in our head and even when we say sound so good, it sounds so just, so right. My experience, and my comments were not to portray leave or stay. They were meant to portray that whatever your decision is, there is a difference between bearable, tolerable, etc. -- and truly having a happy and joyous life...and that may involve a life outside activities which are not good for you.
For me, my marriage got to a point where I could not be around my wife when she was drunk. So, at that point, for me it wasn't about staying or leaving the marriage. It was about not boiling over and being filled with anger and resentment. I wouldn't stay with her and watch a movie, or hockey, which she liked, or go to a game with her. So, I decided that when she was drunk, I would leave the house. I went to the track, to a friend's, met a friend, etc. I built a life -- not away from my wife -- but outside of her, independent of her, so that my happiness was not contingent upon her or ruined by her drinking. Acceptance allowed me to be happy -- doing what I was doing -- even when she was drinking! I lived that way for almost 5 years.
Acceptance. It is the answer. Unfortunately, for some, it brings them to a point they are not happy with...the end of the maze.
Iamhere said
May 17, 2019
Ellen - that discussion/process/life event was an eye-opener for me. It began my journey of what Jerry often suggests, "Might I be wrong?" or "Might I be right?" and what does and does not matter for my sanity, serenity, etc. Today, in each situation, I go out of my way to seek to understand first, simply so that I can bounce my own values against what another may be feeling, experiencing, etc.
My AH also had a physically demanding job that he worked at from 18-65. I worked very hard as well, but I was fortunate to have taken a different path and primarily worked in offices as a professional. I also believe that he is 100% entitled to live his retirement as he wants to - after all, what's the point? He also has different desires, intentions, etc. than I and I decided long, long ago that I would rather be happy than right. For me, with Step One, when I admit I am truly powerless, that's over every other person, place or thing. Working the rest of the steps and focusing on me allows me to thrive most days in any situation and adequately define what is acceptable to me and what is not. I had to check my ego and my motives carefully during my step work as I did spend way too much time identifying the fault and blame in others, when truly there was a part of me broken enough to give my power away. I don't want to return there! I'd much rather accept when things happen, as what you experienced - an annoyance in some 'same old' behavior on day 3 and then after acceptance, take the action necessary for me to return to serenity.
I too have no intention of departing from my marriage. I celebrate each members' progress in their own recovery. I know many who have stayed and many who have left. There is no shame in either choice, and for most I know who stayed, they didn't view only 2 choices. There are as many choices about relationships as their are folks involved...there is no wrong answer.
I have two boys and they are less than 2 years apart. As they age and we age, we talk more and more about life and love and ....................What I have come to realize and accept is that even though they both had same parents, same home, same school, etc. - they are also very different in what they value and what they view as goals. And, both are perfectly great so long as they are happy, joyous and free (and self-supporting).
I personally feel blessed. I have the best of all worlds - a great program, sponsor, sponsees, loving husband, tons of friends, family, etc. Because I am willing to accept others unconditionally and remain open to learning, loving and living, I have more to do than there are waking hours in the day. That doesn't mean certain things don't annoy me or worry me or even anger me - it just means I have tools and support for the difficult times, and I have no doubt, just for today, that I am exactly where I am supposed to be! Just keep doing you - it's working wonderfully and looks great on you! (((Hugs)))
-- Edited by Iamhere on Friday 17th of May 2019 04:36:10 PM
Aloha said
May 20, 2019
This is what I love about these shares - there are no victims, only volunteers.
For a time, I stayed with my exAH and I made sure to catch myself when I was in a place of complaining about him. I KNEW who he was and what he was doing. Whose fault is it that I'm with him and feeling miserable? I didn't need to punish him for my choices. I did have to do a lot of soul-searching, asking myself if I really wanted to stay, what could I tolerate, and yes - that wonderful question "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" While I did end up leaving him, in the interim these searching questions lead me to be a better human being to a fellow human being, and it enabled my divorce to be one of civility - not anger and victim-hood.
I often forget that other people are children of God, too. If I'm going to choose to be in their company it's my responsibility to show up and be a loving person, even if I disagree with them. You can absolutely still be in a relationship with someone and not be an enabler, a doormat, etc. It all depends on what YOU decide for yourself. It's your life, after all. You're the one who has to live with the consequences of your decisions.
Why I love this program is that it doesn't tell you that you must leave in order to find serenity. It helps you to learn how to navigate your existing relationships with dignity and actually manage to find serenity.
One of my meetings I attend has a little sign out that says "Serenity is not the absence of conflict. It is the ability to cope with it."
Do we all have to then be zen monks who turn the cheek at every slight? Nope. We still don't have to accept unacceptable behavior. But we are capable of standing up for ourselves without it being at the expense of others.
El said
May 20, 2019
Thank you for the additional replies. There is wisdom in each one!
I do feel relief from knowing there isn't a wrong or right....each recovery and program advancement is as individual as we all are. Yes, it is my choice to stay and I am working toward surrender and acceptance. My mind wants me to think that my way is THE way. Not so.
Thank you again for the thoughtful posts on my topic!
Hugs! Ellen
JerryF said
May 26, 2019
Thanks El...I came back to do more reading and found more understanding...gracious this program works so well. (((hugs)))
Maresie889 said
May 27, 2019
I know that obsessing about the exA made my depression worse for years
I was a deeply dependent person. I was also believing that what he #did# reflected on me. Either the now ex A was running full throttle (now I believe he did drugs for that) or slumped into a semi coma. In reality neither state worked for me. At times towards the end it was either one or the other. I found detachment a really hard skill to master. These days I have a few years under my belt.
For me the relationship with the ex A was all about needing to be in.a relationship#, needing to be part of an #us#.
Now I am content to be #me# and I dont have the gnawing loneliness thar used to haunt me
Beating ourselves up is a natural stop gap. Now I am not doing that anymore. For me the picking up the stick was a natural impulse.
tiredtonite said
May 27, 2019
Hi El,
Leaving the house might give you a break and some serenity. You deserve it. ((hugs))) TT
So, today is day #3 my AH has not left his chair all day or night. Wait, I take that back.....he gets up to smoke or get a beer or go to the bathroom. No errands, no activity, nothing.
Monday didn't bother me because we had a fairly busy weekend and I knew he would take the day to "unwind."
Tuesday didn't bother me because it just didn't bother me.....I kept busy with my own activities and was happy to do so. I had detached from his proclamations of what he was going to do and then sit there all day and night.
Today...Wednesday....I am just plain disgusted. I am not saying anything because I am TRYING to stay on my side of the street. I am TRYING not to be judgmental of his choices and how he spends his time. I am TRYING to refrain from asking about all the things he wanted to accomplish yesterday and now today.
So, what is the difference? I still had errands and activities today. I have plenty to fill my time. Why can I detach some days and other days I am ready to gnaw through cement over his behaviors?
I have read literature, I have written in my journal, I have included things I enjoy in my day. Why can't I detach today? I know there is a whole other post on the subject of detachment with much helpful ESH. I find it interesting that I can glide through some days without barely glancing over my shoulder at what he's up to (or not). Somedays, not so much.
Ellen
I so agree with Betty - outings are helpful too. I love going for a walk or working in the garden too - digging in the dirt always feels good to my soul! You aren't alone and being human is natural! (((Hugs)))
I can so relate to your post. That whole idea of knowing how to detach and it works then it doesn't.
I have had a similar experience, not with an active ah but within a relationship that I just cant get comfortable with and I try and try and have tried now for a long time and I get RELIEF from detaching but it can be fleeting and then i'm back in resentment and I have to go through the whole process you have described again, the reading, journal, praying, sharing with my sponsor and then i get the relief all over again and I'm back on and off the merrygoround.
Ive recently had a spiritual awakening (i think it could be called that) an aha moment when it clicked into place for me. While I've been going through this constant cycle I've been thinking I just need to know more, do more of my program, hand it over, let go, try harder and none of that has worked for long, again just the intermittent relief and then I thought i need stronger boundaries and I have rock solid boundaries and still just the intermittent relief until the acceptance truly came for me. I finally saw the reality of my relationship and that I was trying to join someone on their path and that path doesnt fit me and they were trying to coma along my path and my path doesnt fit them. We dont fit and nothing I do will ever change that basic fundamental fact. Its like a surrender. I finally surrendered the fight and the battle is over for me. I feel true serenity for the first time ina long while around my relationship, ive finally accepted reality.
Sounds so simple and obvious but I think for me i was trying to force the 3 A's - Awareness, was easy, I will study it until i know in an obsessive way, lol. The Action part, yes lots of actions, reading step work etc but I wasnt fully accepting the basic fact. My partner wants to live this way and I want to live that way. I cant live his way and he cant live mine. Basic step 1 but the torture of getting to this point for me has been brutal, for me it always is a fight.
There is a really good reading on surrender in the ODAT pg 135, it talks about the difference between submission and surrender. Its all about the conscious and unconscious mind. For me I could see that for the last few years Ive been trying to get to acceptance but really I was submitting and its only now I have surrendered and the difference is huge. Although, Im not sure if its a process and you can take action to get there quicker, it took me almost 4 years from knowing to accepting and surrendering. Is it my ego that has been telling me there is a way and I will find it until i must accept there is no way and i must accept.
Now Ive got to surrender Im not sure what action is appropriate if any in my new found surrender, Im thinking im just going to enjoy the surrender for a while and see what happens but its melted away those horrible unrealistic expectations that just haunted me over and over.
I hope this helps.
Can I just add something further? This struggle with reality seems to be us alanon people's symptom. We want things the way we want things and feel its completely reasonable to get them the way we want them, our way is of course the right proper way!!!! This is our ego talking I think.
Im getting to the point that I dont think there is a living soul alive who is 'on my path.' Its my path and so that means everyone else is on theirs, so its the meeting in the middle maybe? I dont know. Im thinking that actually there is a thing person whatever on my path and in my path and wants to be and its my higher power and that is it so im getting closer to the idea that im on the right path and so is everybody else and i just need to know i have my higher power with me always and then I can decide what to do about other humans and their own paths. The alcoholics path is not an easy one to be alongside, its ugly and smelly and sad and funny at times and brutal. Personally, for me, that path is soul destroying for me, too much, i surrendered that one a while ago. It has the power to put me and my mind under a black cloud. Maybe with a really strong connection to a higher power even that path is doable but im not there yet. I send you my thoughts and prayers.
Maybe suggestion is maybe stop trying trying trying, it could be forcing and its not working. Maybe try reading up on acceptance, try acceptance over and over for a while, see if it makes a difference.
-- Edited by el-cee on Thursday 16th of May 2019 08:28:17 AM
I know I find it difficult to detach when I'm not in a place of acceptance.
Until I can get to that place, I also had to do what Betty suggested. I got out of the house. Frequently. I went to meetings often. Participated in fellowship and service. I also had two jobs - one full-time and one part-time. I didn't NEED the part-time job, but it was a good excuse for me to be out and away from the alcoholic while he was drinking. Out of sight, out of mind, as they say.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses! They have all given me much to think about and apply.
Betty, you are right....when I can no longer stand what is happening, I need to get out of the house. Getting out of the room simply is not enough sometimes. I am making a list of places and activities I could do when I need my escape.....finding a meeting at the forefront.
IAH, thank you for the reminder that my progress will not always be perfect, that I am not perfect and to concentrate on the positive. In this case, it took me till day 3 to think I was going to lose it! It used to be it would be day #1 I would be impatient with his lack of motivation to do anything at all. I have tools and now that the weather is getting nicer (kind of) it will be easier to just simply go outside and putter.....breath in fresh air and dig in the soil.
Riley, I love how taking care of you....how you thought "what am I going to do today?" led to weight loss and a healthier you! Also, your comment about trying to "fit him into a the slot of being a good husband...." My AH is a good man under a bad disease, but I do find myself trying (again) to fit him into the slot or mold of the ideal husband.....constantly downplaying the severity of his condition to others.
el-cee.....yes....you have perfectly described my cycle over and over again. I have gotten glimpses of surrender....but they don't last. The darn cycle. Your statements about trying to join each other on our paths and they just don't fit (!) really hit me hard. That is the perfect description for I once thought we WERE on the same path. However, even if alcohol wasn't a factor.....people change, interests change, energy levels change, the aging process changes us as well. I have also been submitting and not surrendering. This is something I need to truly absorb.....we are no longer on the same path....only in moments when we do things that we still enjoy together.
Aloha, you are right....when I am not in the space of acceptance there is no way I can detach. So, surrender leads to acceptance which leads to detachment.
Thank you again all for very valuable ESH. You have given me much to think about, re-read and absorb.
Hugs! Ellen
I have SO BEEN THERE!! I found that when I had down-time, I would obsess over what my AH was doing, not doing, what he was saying he was going to do. It drove me crazy!! I was told not to have ANY expectations... but I found that to be difficult, as we were living/parenting as a TEAM. Or at least I thought that was how we gave our vows to each other so long ago... it was not what my reality was though!
I think what el-cee shared was truly on point. Acceptance was the key for me as well. Both Acceptance for where my life and marriage was at (not how I wished it would be), and for what I would allow in my life moving forward. You see, I was always looking back... back to "how it was"... back to the "good times"... back to when I thought I felt happy. That behavior of mine kept me stuck!
Please don't beat yourself up for being disgusted by your spouse's behavior... I remember all too well my feelings of complete loathing for my spouse... so you are not alone! I think I lived that last year together trying everything I knew of to keep busy and out of the house/proximity of my spouse -practicing detachment. I found that for me, it was not a long-term solution. More work on me, revealed that I needed to accept that I could not live beside Addiction. Only then could I move forward. It has been a bumpy road.
Wishing you peace, today El.
Thank you PnP! Yes, I understand how one comes to the decision to not live with addiction anymore. Perhaps it is my age and stage in life, but I don't want to leave in a permanent way. I want us to live out our lives together the best we can. I feel so fortunate in so many ways and I would have life lessons....some painful no matter what.
Thank you for understanding and validating my feelings at times and how frustrating it can be. I know though that I need to work on me....not him....as much as I think I know what his life SHOULD look like! LOL. He has said to me many times that he is perfectly content watching TV all day; it doesn't bother him at all. At times I can't accept that....how could someone want to waste their life by watching the made up lives of others all day long?! I don't get it. However, he is speaking his truth and I need to accept it....bottom line. It is also sad to watch him physically deteriorate, but I need to accept his reluctance of getting better too.
It helps so much to know that we all "get it" and work on ourselves with different journeys!
Hugs to you! Ellen
OH El you have received gold from the elders on MIP which has caused me to feel hopeful for you. It was the elders of the program in Central CA. that did the same for me and boy were they patient and watchful as I spent the necessary time to practice, practice, practice after listening, listening, listening. This program works and it takes courage and dedication to work it. Keep on keeping on sister...miracles are coming. ((((hugs)))) .and Mahalo MIP. (((((hugs)))))
Thank you, Jerry! Gold indeed!
Blessings,
Ellen
When his heart disease came to light, he was seriously considering not having life saving surgery. This was the craziest thinking to me at the time...I just struggled to understand how one could/would opt out of life extending surgery. Of course, the surgery had risks and the recovery was extensive which caused him pause. What I learned was we were both looking at it from our 'frame of reference'. My parents are still alive - 83 soon to be 84 - so based on what I know/family genes, I would certainly accept life saving/extending surgery at 60. His parents, both gone, died early - 50 and 51 - cancer and heart disease. For him, making it to 60 was a gift and he felt he was already on 'borrowed time'.
This experience, more than any other in our marriage, really helped me understand and respect that we are very different about many things as well as how we see life - quality, quantity, etc. When we talked it out, I fully came to respect his processing and was prepared to support whatever decision he made. He did decide to have the surgery and is still here and feels way better than he did before but he almost opted out and was willing to check out.
We are all uniquely made and uniquely imperfect. Accepting others is really freeing, even when we don't fully understand or like it! Great thread and thanks for sharing with us!
So, you are disgusted. You don't say anything -- but what about you? That disgust sits, stews, and perhaps manifests. At least that's what it did with me. Staying on our side of the street is about our physical and emotional self...it relates to interaction and dialogue with the other person...but what about self and where we are in our head-space. It's great to not say anything, but not if we are boiling and boiling and boiling over on the inside. That! Is our problem. The "all the things he wanted to accomplish yesterday and now today" thing also resonates with me! Big time!!! LOL. I used to say I was detaching, not engaging, staying on my side of the street, and so on. I was making all the right moves, doing all the right things -- but I was screaming and raging on the inside!!! Who am I to say something about what she wanted to accomplish? So, I didn't say anything, but it was there, in my head!!! Taking up space in my head!!!
I too could easily gnaw through cement over my wife's behaviors! So, what does all this mean. It really is -- for me -- about me. Acceptance is just not there. Not today. Go back Bo, back to Step One, go back to ACCEPTANCE. You either have it or you don't. Sure, people will say you have it and you have a bad day, or you have a slip. But that's more circumstantial than mindset or frame of mind. Only you know you! And your sponsor! It's also about Step Two, surrender. True surrender. The expectations, norms, whatever exists in the world...may not exist here...because we are talking about an alcoholic. One can rationalize all they want to, talk about different people with different ways of thinking, different shoes too, LOL -- but -- all the BS aside, we are talking about an alcoholic. 'Nuff said.
Why you can or can't do anything...is about you. I go to meetings for me. Not to settle, make bearable, make tolerable, not to learn to accept unacceptable behavior, and so on. I go for me. I go for me to get better. Not worse.
IAH, thank you for the share on your H's surgery and how his perception....just simple perception led to such different points of view. It helped me to see once again that my AH and I do see things very differently. He sees his retirement as a rest after decades of back breaking work....a deserved rest to do whatever he pleases and he enjoys old shows and movies. My take on retirement is the opportunity to do what I want by exploring new things and spending time on all I didn't have time or energy for while working. We are both enjoying retirement, but our perception and outlook is different.
I tend to blame everything on alcohol. I do believe alcohol is a factor for sure.....but if he were to stop drinking....how do I know he still wouldn't want to spend a good part of the day in front of the TV? There's a good chance he would. Different upbringings, different careers, different contentment.
Bo, I hear you for sure. While I was trying not to say anything because it doesn't help or change anything, it still was driving me nuts and driving me to boil. I agree that the meetings, everything alanon is for me. It is about me and my recovery. However, the residue from that does help to make things bearable, tolerable, acceptable. Fortunately (?) for me I am not wrestling of whether to stay or go. Unless violence or some other totally unacceptable behavior (to me) occurs, I don't plan on making a move from our marriage. That being said, I agree that somedays acceptance is just not there. Time to head back to the first steps to surrender once again. Time to up the meetings, phone calls. Thank you for your views and ESH.
For me, my marriage got to a point where I could not be around my wife when she was drunk. So, at that point, for me it wasn't about staying or leaving the marriage. It was about not boiling over and being filled with anger and resentment. I wouldn't stay with her and watch a movie, or hockey, which she liked, or go to a game with her. So, I decided that when she was drunk, I would leave the house. I went to the track, to a friend's, met a friend, etc. I built a life -- not away from my wife -- but outside of her, independent of her, so that my happiness was not contingent upon her or ruined by her drinking. Acceptance allowed me to be happy -- doing what I was doing -- even when she was drinking! I lived that way for almost 5 years.
Acceptance. It is the answer. Unfortunately, for some, it brings them to a point they are not happy with...the end of the maze.
Ellen - that discussion/process/life event was an eye-opener for me. It began my journey of what Jerry often suggests, "Might I be wrong?" or "Might I be right?" and what does and does not matter for my sanity, serenity, etc. Today, in each situation, I go out of my way to seek to understand first, simply so that I can bounce my own values against what another may be feeling, experiencing, etc.
My AH also had a physically demanding job that he worked at from 18-65. I worked very hard as well, but I was fortunate to have taken a different path and primarily worked in offices as a professional. I also believe that he is 100% entitled to live his retirement as he wants to - after all, what's the point? He also has different desires, intentions, etc. than I and I decided long, long ago that I would rather be happy than right. For me, with Step One, when I admit I am truly powerless, that's over every other person, place or thing. Working the rest of the steps and focusing on me allows me to thrive most days in any situation and adequately define what is acceptable to me and what is not. I had to check my ego and my motives carefully during my step work as I did spend way too much time identifying the fault and blame in others, when truly there was a part of me broken enough to give my power away. I don't want to return there! I'd much rather accept when things happen, as what you experienced - an annoyance in some 'same old' behavior on day 3 and then after acceptance, take the action necessary for me to return to serenity.
I too have no intention of departing from my marriage. I celebrate each members' progress in their own recovery. I know many who have stayed and many who have left. There is no shame in either choice, and for most I know who stayed, they didn't view only 2 choices. There are as many choices about relationships as their are folks involved...there is no wrong answer.
I have two boys and they are less than 2 years apart. As they age and we age, we talk more and more about life and love and ....................What I have come to realize and accept is that even though they both had same parents, same home, same school, etc. - they are also very different in what they value and what they view as goals. And, both are perfectly great so long as they are happy, joyous and free (and self-supporting).
I personally feel blessed. I have the best of all worlds - a great program, sponsor, sponsees, loving husband, tons of friends, family, etc. Because I am willing to accept others unconditionally and remain open to learning, loving and living, I have more to do than there are waking hours in the day. That doesn't mean certain things don't annoy me or worry me or even anger me - it just means I have tools and support for the difficult times, and I have no doubt, just for today, that I am exactly where I am supposed to be! Just keep doing you - it's working wonderfully and looks great on you! (((Hugs)))
-- Edited by Iamhere on Friday 17th of May 2019 04:36:10 PM
For a time, I stayed with my exAH and I made sure to catch myself when I was in a place of complaining about him. I KNEW who he was and what he was doing. Whose fault is it that I'm with him and feeling miserable? I didn't need to punish him for my choices. I did have to do a lot of soul-searching, asking myself if I really wanted to stay, what could I tolerate, and yes - that wonderful question "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" While I did end up leaving him, in the interim these searching questions lead me to be a better human being to a fellow human being, and it enabled my divorce to be one of civility - not anger and victim-hood.
I often forget that other people are children of God, too. If I'm going to choose to be in their company it's my responsibility to show up and be a loving person, even if I disagree with them. You can absolutely still be in a relationship with someone and not be an enabler, a doormat, etc. It all depends on what YOU decide for yourself. It's your life, after all. You're the one who has to live with the consequences of your decisions.
Why I love this program is that it doesn't tell you that you must leave in order to find serenity. It helps you to learn how to navigate your existing relationships with dignity and actually manage to find serenity.
One of my meetings I attend has a little sign out that says "Serenity is not the absence of conflict. It is the ability to cope with it."
Do we all have to then be zen monks who turn the cheek at every slight? Nope. We still don't have to accept unacceptable behavior. But we are capable of standing up for ourselves without it being at the expense of others.
Thank you for the additional replies. There is wisdom in each one!
I do feel relief from knowing there isn't a wrong or right....each recovery and program advancement is as individual as we all are. Yes, it is my choice to stay and I am working toward surrender and acceptance. My mind wants me to think that my way is THE way. Not so.
Thank you again for the thoughtful posts on my topic!
Hugs! Ellen
Thanks El...I came back to do more reading and found more understanding...gracious this program works so well. (((hugs)))