This was the topic at a meeting I went to last weekend...and the person who did the topic had a very interesting, and very fascinating "slant" or "approach" to the topic of denial. She focused on denial as it relates only to OUR denial, as the loved one of an alcoholic. This had ZERO to do with the denial of an alcoholic or addict. Just US. I. WE. She started with denial being something that ebbs and flows, is fluid, changes over time, and occurs, lives, breathes, on a spectrum, spanning the course of time. She referenced JADE -- the acronym meaning Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain -- and how very often that exists in the context of SOMEONE ELSE...how we justify, defend, explain, and argue, our position, what we think, what we do, why we did it, and so on, to someone else, perhaps, mainly the alcoholic. I can't count the times I tried to defend to my wife, why I made my boundaries and actually implemented them. I can't count the number of times I had to defend myself for doing what I did, or, not doing what she wanted me to do! And so on and so on. I can't count how many times I justified, rationalized, and tried to explain to my wife...hundreds of things, thoughts, feelings, incidents, actions, not taking action, etc.
However, she focused on JADE as it relates to US. To me! She then portrayed OUR denial, what we do and how we rationalize it, defend it, justify it, TO OURSELVES...and how we convince OURSELVES. Whatever it is we are doing it about...just the fact that we are in denial...and the denial is OURS. Very thought provoking. For me, I started to think about what brought on the denial, then the JADE process, and the outcomes. I found this topic, and her portrayal of it very thought provoking, if only for the fact that someone else verbalized, clearly and concisely, something I knew, experienced, felt, etc., for many years -- but perhaps in a subconscious or cognitive dissonance type of way. It was there, but I didn't get it. It was there, but I didn't see it. It was a blind spot.
She talked about "denials" of the past -- only in reference to her finding recovery, and the progress she made...and how she no longer found herself in denial, allowed herself to get there, be there, or even head down that road.
So, for me, denial starts with just that. Denial. I am in denial, avoiding, not wanting to see, feel, experience, admit, understand, whatever you want to call it. It proceeds, progresses, and is no different than me lying to myself. I don't mean lying in a condescending or critical way. It is simply the absolute, the verb. I am lying to myself. Why? I don't want to face...what? The truth. I don't want to see it, deal with it, take action, have to do something about it, and have to make a change -- in me, my thinking, my actions, my reactions, my behavior, or even simply a change to what is. So, I am in denial. Denial might appear to keep me away from and free from pain. But, does it really? Denial can prolong pain. It can push it off perhaps. But I have not escaped the pain. In alanon we learn that pain is inevitable, and suffering is optional! There is meaning, an understand, an entire philosophy behind that little catch-phrase. I was in denial about...my wife's drinking. The extent of it. That it was a problem. That it was affecting her, her health, her life. That it was affecting me, my life, my health...and our marriage. I was in denial about starting a family with an alcoholic. I was in denial that my wife was an alcoholic. I tried to convince myself that her drinking didn't bother me and wasn't even affecting me! Then I came to alanon. I walked into my first face to face meeting, and haven't stopped going back for a quarter of a century. I am not an alcoholic, so I my focus is and always has been on alanon and my recovery, my alanon recovery, no other recovery. My denial was innate. My denial was fact. Then I came to alanon.
After denial, in order to stay there, be safe there -- LOL, ironic isn't it, be safe in denial? -- that's when I started to JADE...but NOT TO OTHERS...TO MYSELF!!! I justified, I defended, I explained, I rationalized, and I convinced MYSELF...so I didn't even have to argue!!! LOL. By doing this, what did it allow me to do? It allowed me to STAY IN DENIAL!
Before I found recovery, and actually started my journey in recovery...I was in denial about almost everything.
So...forget about the why...focus on the what...What were or what are you in denial about...focus on YOU...what are you in denial about? Part 2 to follow, LOL.
Freetime said
Apr 9, 2019
Bo, I think this is a great topic: our own denial towards ourselves. I certainly have been a Queen of Denial -- very good at it because I had a lot of practice. Just like I could deny what was happening in front of me, I could deny what was happening inside me. That was hard work, to deny the obvious!
I have come to believe that -- just like my other defects -- denial had a positive intention, but was a tool used in the wrong way. It was self-protection, which is a kind of self-care, except it is being used to excess or used on the wrong target. Positive thinking is healthy; ignoring or refusing obvious truth is not so healthy. The Al-Anon literature is really great at expressing that balance of truth and self-care.
Aloha said
Apr 9, 2019
I find I'm like a parrot on this a lot lately, but for me denial is rooted in fear. And again those fears are either that I'll lose something I have (or think I have), or not get something I want. Period. Denial justifies self-will for me. Denial is again my not trusting in my HP - not having faith. If I feel secure, there's no reason for me to fear losing something or fear not having my needs met.
Our membership is rooted in heavy denial. Alcoholism is a spiritual disease, after all. Our inability to connect with and trust our HP has us running riot in self-will and denial.
canadianguy said
Apr 9, 2019
It has been said that "De Nile" is NOT just a river in Africa, and is rampant - not only amongst Alcoholics, but also amongst we Al-Anoners as well.....
This post brought up a strong memory for me.....
Blame - I was at a family conference at my ex-wife's treatment center, and was talking to one of the counselors there.... I had been attending Al-Anon for a few years, and I guess I was fairly full of myself, etc.... He asked if there was anything else bothering me, and I told him, truthfully, that "part of me almost wanted my wife to use again, so that I could walk away from the marriage, honorably, once and for all". Now, I would have sworn at the time that I was no longer 'playing the victim', but his response almost floored me. I was half expecting a bit of a "poor Tom, it must be really hard" kinda response, but the counselor instead said: "of course you do... that way you can continue to blame your wife for everything that goes wrong in your life, and not take personal accountability for anything!" Well, I....... he......... was 100% right...
Tom
El said
Apr 9, 2019
Oh, what an interesting post and topic! Yes, when we talk about denial we are usually, mostly, always referencing the alcoholic. This is so thought provoking.....and certainly puts a new spin on things. Thank you, Bo!
Canadianguy.wow the counselor really hit hard with that one.....but it is so much easier to blame the A for all that is wrong.....our own form of denial.
Great topic!
DavidG said
Apr 9, 2019
I don't think I was ever in denial about the disease... Thanks Bo... ...
...when I was 12 I got a part time job as a carrot boy- it gave me a modest income. Our foreman was the local policeman. I was in his car one day- and he went in round the back of the local pub. He came out with whiskey and beer. And his hand did not go into his pocket once.
Pubs were supposed to close at 6- so fathers would go home and have a meal- with their families. It never happened around that pub.
I knew- even with that job that I would never get a decent education- or have decent clothes- or have a reasonable family life. Our family finances were going down the gurgler- and I knew why!
My denial was denial of my own thoughts and emotions. Bolted down. As I wrote that share above this- there was a certain irony and bitterness in it. But saying out loud was helpful. it is getting me through the next few moments.
I can talk these days without seeming angry and bitter, or sulking. I live in the present much more- having given away my store of shame and bitterness.
Thanks.
Iamhere said
Apr 9, 2019
I believe the biggest form of denial in Al-Anon is that we are our own problem. Not the Alcoholic, not the drinking, not the insanity the disease brings, but us - our ability (or inability) to recognize and realize that our reactions to life are distorted. I also believe that most of 'us' had issues (known or unknown) with trust, commitment, sharing, self-esteem, etc. well before our A entered our lives. The second form of denial I see often is a disease vs. a choice. I do see Alcoholism as a disease, and I do see recovery as a choice. I have no influence or power over if/when another seeks recovery and it's really not my business nor does it affect my own recovery/denial.
I feel blessed to be an A as I fully understand the power and the allure of the poison to an A. What brought me to Al-Anon was this distorted idea that as a wife, mother, daughter, sister, etc. I should have some level of influence (EGO/POWER) over the actions of another - an A or not! I was working hard to control, manage, manipulate, etc. well before my boys ever had their first drink/drug - I just didn't know what I was doing was 'wrong'. I was in denial about who I was, who I was supposed to be and how I was supposed to get there. My job as a parent is to teach and prepare for adulthood + keep them safe/alive to adult age. I took that job way too seriously and to the extreme! I know better and do better today, and if I passed tomorrow, my boys would have the 'adulting skills' necessary to survive/thrive.
In Al-Anon, denial is easy to spot - when another is sharing and makes mention of their A, there is denial. Today, with a spiritual foundation that suggests to me we are all imperfectly created by a power greater than any of us, anytime I beginning to judge, blame, shame another or myself - I am in denial again. Our simple program asks us to live one day at a time, do the next right thing, be true to ourselves, and be of service. When I keep things simple, my days are easy and I am spiritually centered.
I also feel blessed that our Al-Anon meetings here locally strongly encourage any discussion or reference to the A - what they are doing, if they are/are not drinking, etc. Instead, we drill down as best as we can on what is making us 'tick' - sad, happy, joyous, troubled, etc. For me, anytime I am leaning towards placing blame for my lot in life or my current emotions on another person, place or thing, I have returned to denial.
For me also, the opposite of denial is acceptance. With practice, practice and more practice, I've added unconditional to that - simply because that reminds me it's not my place to change anyone but me. I see many who are stuck talking about, referring to, blaming or wondering about their A and am grateful I am beyond that. It's taken every hospital stay, jail visit, OD, relapse, car crash, etc. to 'get here' but I do know deep in my soul and heart today that no matter what anyone is/is not doing, who I am and how I am is all on me!
Great topic and lovely shares!
1911A1 said
Apr 10, 2019
I came by my denial skills honestly...it was the coping tool of choice in my family of origin. Needless to say, it took getting trampled by a lot of elephants in the room over the years before I learned the awareness in program to understand what was going on.
What I really like in this post is the proposition that we can JADE ourselves. That was another FOO survival skill that I wound up using on myself, and by the responses here, I can see that I'm not alone. As I learned over time that I did not have to JADE another person who was trying to manipulate me, I eventually was also able to generalize that new ability to identify any time I was trying to implement JADE...including with myself.
That's one of the neatest things about the "life tools co-op" that is Al-Anon: tools we pick up and learn to use with the problematic people in our lives are, in many cases, tools we can also use with the man or woman in the mirror!
Bo said
Apr 10, 2019
So, for me, early on, before I actually made a commitment to work the steps, work the program, and get on a path and journey to recovery...I was so deep in denial.
One of the earliest denial situations for me was -- how important is it vs. accepting unacceptable behavior!!! I was co-dependent in this unhealthy, toxic, abusive relationship...and I didn't know it!!! So, when little things would happen, that would be unacceptable to a normal, healthy person, me of today for example, I would dismiss it and say the following -- that's not her, that's the disease, she's wonderful person, she loves, me, I love her, our life is wonderful EXCEPT, and so on...but I would then say "How important is it" -- and that got me to accept unacceptable behavior!!! So I would constantly say how important is it, it's not that important, it's not a big deal, it's not really her...and there I was, getting worse and worse, accepting unacceptable behavior...time and time again!!!
Aloha said
Apr 10, 2019
Interesting approach to the "How important is it" slogan, Bo.
It definitely shows that we all have our own filters and approach to our tools.
"How important is it?" really saved me from a lot of pain and unnecessary stress. I would put huge significance on things that truly were not worth dissolving my serenity over. But honestly I never found I used it as a means to accept unacceptable behavior.
I did come to a place of compassion with the active A that was in my life through that slogan, however. But compassion for me didn't mean just lying down and being a doormat or living in denial.
I just got the blessing of learning to love and accept him for who he was - disease and all - and then show even more compassion for both of us by stepping out of his life and going my own way. I found a lot of his behavior was just the disease. I knew he was a wonderful person deep down. I knew we both loved each other. I also knew he wasn't going to change - and that was okay for HIM if he didn't change, but it wasn't going to be okay for me.
"How important is it?" removed self-righteous judgement from my own perspectives. I certainly was full of self-righteousness before Al-Anon. I mean - didn't the A KNOW what he was doing was wrong? Shouldn't he know better? I'd never do such a thing to him! I know better! It's important he get this!
I had an amicable divorce with my A, and I thank Al-Anon for that gift. I only feel it was amicable because of slogans like "How important is it?" It got me to lose the ego, take off the boxing gloves, and approach situations with compassion. Ultimately it enabled me to approach my relationships from a place that put principles before personalities.
-- Edited by Aloha on Wednesday 10th of April 2019 01:15:22 PM
Iamhere said
Apr 10, 2019
What makes recovery special is how we are all given freedom to recover and use the tools that work for us. I suspect, possibly because of my own 'ism', my definition of unacceptable behavior is vastly different than others. I have a high tolerance for insanity simply because I've worn the shoes, and others had empathy and compassion for me even when I was at my worst. My sponsor does not allow me to pass judgement on what is vs. what is not acceptable behavior - we instead approach it from my boundary creation; this keeps me focused on self and not who or what others are/are not doing.
I really like this page that discusses the slogans and suggested intent. I know me well enough that I can/could twist just about anything to suit my own fancy left to my own devices/ego/self-will. So, I needed some suggested guidelines for the slogans to keep me grounded spiritually and mentally.
Yes, there are certainly different perspectives on the slogans. That is why some resonate more than others and the circumstances we are in. I am getting a lot out of all the shares.
Thank you, IAH for the link you included. I saved it to read more thoroughly at my leisure.....probably many times!
Ellen
Bo said
Apr 10, 2019
I also found myself in deep denial...when I was being treated poorly, not being appreciated, being taken for granted, and in certain cases, just "used" for whatever reason (money, convenience, errands, and in one case, bail money).
I chalked it up to -- she's depressed, she's focused on her son who is an addict, she's not well, she doesn't love herself, so she can't love me, and so on.
More denial...more pain!
I remember learning that I was doing things to make her feel better. But I realized I was doing things to make me feel better. BUT...even if I did feel better...it was only for a brief moment! Why? Because I didn't get the outcome I wanted, I didn't get the results I wanted. I may have gotten a thank you or some acknowledgement...but that was it...then I went back to feeling pain and feeling hurt!!!
More denial.
Bo said
Apr 11, 2019
I remember when I was getting "blamed" for my wife's drinking -- and I never, ever, bought into that. I was adamant and while I never "defended" myself, I made it clear that I was not to blame, she drank because she wanted to, had a problem, her choice, etc. All I did was make statements, that, no, she's not drinking because of me. In one counselling session, my wife said to the therapist that there are times when I was in denial about what was going on, her feelings, etc. The therapist asked me, did I agree, or could I be in denial. I said no. I expressed what I was being blamed for, expressed what I felt and thought about her feelings, explaining what she was saying, so that I could really get across that I understood her feelings and was in fact being sensitive to them -- about issues like starting a family, where she wanted to live, vacations, and other things -- and wouldn't you know, the therapist accepted my responses, and agreed with me.
But from that moment on, my wife, at home, would often say "Even the therapist thinks you are in denial!!!" Wow. Scary. Her version of reality and/or her denial was so ingrained, she had to deflect, shift, gaslight, whatever, to get the entire focus and conversation AWAY from her drinking. I get it. Very sad. By that time, I was no longer trying to blame, point the finger, etc. However, every session, every break-down in communication, every topic, starting a family, going away on vacation, whatever it was...always ended up back at her drinking. It was a never-ending maze of a discussion. Her drinking was destroying her life...and our marriage. That wasn't her doing. That wasn't my doing. That was the disease...one which she refused, didn't want to, or see, she had.
Aloha said
Apr 11, 2019
Iamhere wrote:
What makes recovery special is how we are all given freedom to recover and use the tools that work for us. I suspect, possibly because of my own 'ism', my definition of unacceptable behavior is vastly different than others. I have a high tolerance for insanity simply because I've worn the shoes, and others had empathy and compassion for me even when I was at my worst. My sponsor does not allow me to pass judgement on what is vs. what is not acceptable behavior - we instead approach it from my boundary creation; this keeps me focused on self and not who or what others are/are not doing.
I really like this page that discusses the slogans and suggested intent. I know me well enough that I can/could twist just about anything to suit my own fancy left to my own devices/ego/self-will. So, I needed some suggested guidelines for the slogans to keep me grounded spiritually and mentally.
Thank you for sharing that great link, Iamhere. Love it.
You are so right - ultimately we are the ones who have to live in our own skins. We all have our own levels of tolerance for things and that's perfectly fine. What some people may find intolerable others have no issue with. What's important is we find out for ourselves what our own boundaries are and then learn how to maintain those boundaries for our own serenity.
Empathy certainly played a huge role it my decisions around what things were important to me. I'm not an A, but I could easily be one. Who am I to judge another's ability to behave in a way that I find acceptable? I at times can barely control my own impulses. All I can do is keep checking in with myself and taking my own temperature - if a situation is still making me uncomfortable, then I need to take the steps to change what's going on, and that change can only successfully come about when it comes from me.
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 11, 2019
Thank you for such a thought-provoking topic! I am loving everyone's "take" on this issue.
I saw myself in Bo's second post about denial... and I also saw myself in Ahoha's response to that post. A duality.
Iamhere - thank you for providing the link.
Bo said
Apr 11, 2019
Thanks everyone...
Denial also became a major defense mechanism for me. It was the only way I could cope with what was going on. I kept chalking everything up to coincidence, wrong place, wrong time, she was sick, food poisoning, drank on an empty stomach, it wasn't the alcohol, and over and over and over again. I became the person in denial with everyone seeing that I wasn't facing the reality of the situation and my wife's drinking.
Yes, I was guilty of JADE and doing it to me! I did JADE everyone who was trying to help me see that my wife was an alcoholic. Yes, I did JADE everyone who was watching me enable her. Yes, I did JADE everyone who was watching me be obsessed with the alcoholic!
Denial temporarily kept me out of pain...OR SO I THOUGHT IT DID...it did not.
Riley3 said
Apr 15, 2019
Yes, yes, yes
Such great wisdoms in these responses about denial. I was in denial believing my A that he wasnt drinking when his actions spoke differently. I learned that he lied to me. I learned what an A will do to protect himself. I thought the A cared...nope.
When I finally realized I was on my own and what was I going to do.
I found out my mind is one big powerful tool that will think up anything in my world to protect me from what is going on.
Its hard to see that the A destructive forces circle around all the time. I really dont know what is going on except with myself. I want to deny that I have let this force into my life. I have to look at myself and my bad choices.
I have to say that I live in an A home that is dysfunctional and destructive. I dont have a normal home but I never grew up in one either.
I think I dont want to be that girl that is embarrassed that I have a family of horrors. I dont have a close nit family around the dinning room house. I dont want them to point a finger at me and stay away from me because they might get what I have. I am embarrassed that I have this life attached to me but I act like everything is ok. Total denial on this phase. I want the calm loving house.
Bo said
Apr 15, 2019
The topic at my last meeting was anger...with a flair of resentment...LOL.
I was in denial that I was angry. I acted as if. I was in the fake it till I make it camp, and I stayed there for a long time. Once in a while, I would interrogate my wife, trying to prove to her that she was drunk. I remember once her telling me she hadn't drank all day and hadn't touched any liquor that was in the fridge or the bar...I asked her what about the liquor hidden all over the house. She asked what was I talking about. I said, you really want to go with that answer, just answer my question and we'll drop it...unless you really want me to show you what I am talking about. She denied, deflected, pointed at me, etc.
So I calmly walked around the house, pulling bottles from all of their hiding spots...and stopped at 12 bottles! I asked her if I should continue.
How unhealthy was I? For a nanosecond, I felt better because I was right. That's how unhealthy I was...the point, feeling better, etc., was a result of me being right. So sad.
Then I found recovery. Today I love my life.
serenity47 said
Apr 15, 2019
Great thought provoking topic. I didn't realize how deep my denial was for quite some time. I relate to the boiling frog fable where if a frog is put into boiling water he will jump out, but if he is put into tepid water and brought to a slow boil, he will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.
My obsession, with controlling another grown adults life developed over time. I rationalized and justified many of my decisions because I was MOM and felt a very misplaced sense of responsibility for my daughters choices. I looked for and made up, all kinds of scenarios why she may be doing what she is doing. I neglected my other family members, my job and my friends as I was to preoccupied saving her.
Day in day out as I sat there, my pot of water was getting hotter and hotter and I didn't realize it. A few brave souls who tried to poke at my own denial were met with a steely resistance. After all, I knew best and I was going to be the exception to the rule. I was going to "fix" my daughter, life was going to return to "normal" and it would all be a bad memory. Yikes! Luckily for me, I didn't end up like the frog. When my pot of water was boiling, I finally jumped out and embraced my own program of recovery. By working my program, I am much better at focusing on my own life.
I have a lot of compassion for my daughters struggles, but I am no longer enmeshed in her life. She is a child of God first, and was given to me secondly to raise to the best of my ability. I did my job. Now, I strive to live my life one day at a time, without judgement of myself or others.
Bo said
Apr 15, 2019
For me, I was in denial about being in denial!!! That allowed me to stay in denial even though I didn't know it!
I was simply avoiding reality and explaining it, rationalizing it, or vacillating it away.
But denial is also about dismissing the implications and consequences of my behavior, actions, non-actions, decisions, etc. Denial can be a defense based state, but can also be for us in how we do not want to acknowledge that really bad things are going on in our lives. Denial allows us to defend ourselves and cope with what we feel, want to feel, and don't want to feel. Denial allows us to contradict reality -- the reality of our situation, circumstances, etc.
2HP said
Apr 15, 2019
I can appreciate the topic since denial is where I sat before step one. It was indeed helpful for me to see how my own dishonesty (denial) protected me from dealing with something I was not yet ready to deal with. Eventually I had to own that and take responsibility for my situation.
I do believe however, that until we are fully awakened saints - we're still in denial.
Eventually I found that pain has its virtue, it starts us "seeking" the solution. More shall be revealed when we are good and ready, that is just the way it works. I don't believe in shaming myself for not knowing what I wasn't ready to know. To be human is not a shortcoming.
Today I feel grateful for the alcoholic experience because it pushed me along the path I enjoy today. It has helped me connect more deeply with others, loosen my expectations, and have more compassion for us all. It takes courage to keep trudging the road.
-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 15th of April 2019 12:04:04 PM
Bo said
Apr 15, 2019
When I think denial I think when I failed to recognize the significance and even existence of the reality around me, as well as the consequences of my behaviors! I believed and defended and made things that were untrue true. I created and lived in a lie. Denial can be in our words, our actions, our in- or non-actions, our thoughts, thinking, and more -- and all of that becomes a lie, a fantasy, and it is our reality. Yet, it is not. As Freud said, in our fantasy, we keep the denial to ourselves. But in our words, behaviors, and actions, we share that denial with the outside world.
2HP said
Apr 16, 2019
Bo: "When I think denial I think when I failed to recognize"
Brother, do you really believe you "failed?"
I don't believe "I failed" as much as I believe I was powerless. My dishonesty or denial was my powerlessness under the fog of delusion, I just couldn't see what I couldn't see.... powerless.
"I can't (not I failed...) God can.... I think I'll relax and let Him...."
Until I admitted I had no power, I wouldn't have gone on to develop faith in that power greater than myself. That relationship is necessary to my recovery and it began with a real need for Him.
-- Edited by 2HP on Tuesday 16th of April 2019 07:51:10 AM
Aloha said
Apr 16, 2019
Part of my disease comes out as perfectionism. I would beat the crap out of myself mentally over a lot of things. I still can do that - and a lot of that self-abuse comes in the form of my saying to myself "I should have known better."
"Should have known better" are some pretty insidious words in my vocabulary. I allowed those words to plunge me into a deep depression a few years ago - it was to the point that I was having suicidal thoughts. I'm glad I found my way out of it, and ultimately it's because I've been learning to cut myself a LOT of slack and laugh off my mistakes. I actually imagine God watching me from wherever he/she is and just laughing at me like he/she is watching a little puppy fumble around, saying "Aw - look at that. She did it again. So cute. I love her SO much!"
I have to give myself a break. It's okay that I didn't see everything immediately. It's okay that I excused things in the past that I wouldn't excuse now. We are all on this planet on a journey to learn and expand. We don't and can't learn and expand if we already know everything, right?
I know for me, my HP isn't going to shun me for not knowing better. I only know that because I did the heavy foot-work with steps 1-3 and developed a relationship with a loving and forgiving higher power. All my past mistakes - be they around denial, fear, selfishness, dishonesty, etc, are just that. Past mistakes that I've learned from. Continually going back and ruminating on them doesn't help me. That's what my 4th, 5th and 6th steps were all about. Clearing out the wreckage and then allowing myself to move forward.
One of my good AA friends likes to say "Rule 62!" to me quite often. What's "Rule 62"? It's "Don't take yourself too seriously." I like that rule.
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 16, 2019
I am fully entranced by the level of discussion on the OP!!! Thank you, thank you!!!
Here are some stand-out things for me:
"My obsession, with controlling another grown adults life developed over time."
"For me, I was in denial about being in denial!!! That allowed me to stay in denial even though I didn't know it!
I was simply avoiding reality and explaining it, rationalizing it, or vacillating it away.
But denial is also about dismissing the implications and consequences of my behavior, actions, non-actions, decisions, etc. Denial can be a defense based state, but can also be for us in how we do not want to acknowledge that really bad things are going on in our lives. Denial allows us to defend ourselves and cope with what we feel, want to feel, and don't want to feel. Denial allows us to contradict reality -- the reality of our situation, circumstances, etc."
"To be human is not a shortcoming." - Thank you, 2HP for this reminder!
"Until I admitted I had no power, I wouldn't have gone on to develop faith in that power greater than myself. That relationship is necessary to my recovery and it began with a real need for Him. "
"Part of my disease comes out as perfectionism. I would beat the crap out of myself mentally over a lot of things. I still can do that - and a lot of that self-abuse comes in the form of my saying to myself "I should have known better."
Thank you all for helping me grow today. I am blessed to have been "awakened!"
JerryF said
Apr 16, 2019
Denial is a very deep counseling subject also and I use to understand as the unwillingness to understand at thing. My clients participated in it with their unwillingness.
For me, coming from where I came from I carried an character of not knowing and not knowing that I was not knowing. My VA counselor discovered that. When I came into recovery I couldn't pronounce alcoholism and would not have been able to even spell it. The title of the Alateen reader described my condition with it asking, "What's Drunk Mommy"? In my family of origin a child never used that adjective on a relative and I could expect to be punished very badly if I did because it was considered very disrespectful. My mother was abusive enough in her punishing style and I had no need to escalate it.
I knew the condition of my family and could not talk about it with anyone. I had to find and accept the doors of Al-Anon and then college and AA to come to understand. The members of my family drank alcohol and they did because they could. They didn't need special permission and booze was out in the open and as free as water so we drank it like water. For most of my life that is how I drank alcohol; freely, openly and as much as I wanted without knowing about alcoholism, alcoholic, alcohol.
When I got into Al-Anon and College I learn, "Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical and it causes alcoholism, a compulsion to drink and with an allergy to the body". Class was open...learning started coming and I now knew what was happening to me when I an my family drank. I came to understand and now I know...cannot deny cause they are right. (((hugs)))
el-cee said
Apr 16, 2019
I've heard someone say that denial is protection for us when we are faced with truth we cant face yet. Maybe it's too painful or feels big to deal with. I felt that when the truth of my life smacked me in the face I saw it but had tools that allowed me to continue in the lie and I used to think it was because i was an idiot but i was never an idiot i was just sick in the disease and wasnt ready to face reality because i didn't know that reality and theme truth would actually set me free. I thought it would expose me as wrong as a failure as not good enough as a worthless human being. So denial was a friend of mine for a long long time almost my whole life. Thank you God for alanon that let's me see more and more truth every day and gives me tools that help me see it and not use it as a stick to beat myself. The steps are moving me along and away from that self hate more and more and I'm very grateful. Thank you for the very interesting topic.x
Bo said
Apr 16, 2019
2HP wrote:
Bo: "When I think denial I think when I failed to recognize"
Brother, do you really believe you "failed?"
I don't believe "I failed" as much as I believe I was powerless. My dishonesty or denial was my powerlessness under the fog of delusion, I just couldn't see what I couldn't see.... powerless.
"I can't (not I failed...) God can.... I think I'll relax and let Him...."
Until I admitted I had no power, I wouldn't have gone on to develop faith in that power greater than myself. That relationship is necessary to my recovery and it began with a real need for Him.
-- Edited by 2HP on Tuesday 16th of April 2019 07:51:10 AM
I was using the word "failed" in the psychology context. So, no, I don't think I failed. I was more going through in my head the feelings I was feeling, what I was thinking, etc. -- ex post facto -- and the understanding I had/have of denial, in the intellectual, psychological context. Thanks.
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 17, 2019
el-cee wrote:
I've heard someone say that denial is protection for us when we are faced with truth we cant face yet. Maybe it's too painful or feels big to deal with. I felt that when the truth of my life smacked me in the face I saw it but had tools that allowed me to continue in the lie and I used to think it was because i was an idiot but i was never an idiot i was just sick in the disease and wasnt ready to face reality because i didn't know that reality and theme truth would actually set me free. I thought it would expose me as wrong as a failure as not good enough as a worthless human being. So denial was a friend of mine for a long long time almost my whole life. Thank you God for alanon that let's me see more and more truth every day and gives me tools that help me see it and not use it as a stick to beat myself. The steps are moving me along and away from that self hate more and more and I'm very grateful. Thank you for the very interesting topic.x
el-cee - I just wanted to validate you on what you posted... that is how I saw/see MY denial. I spent a good 6 months after leaving my AH telling myself, my parents, my close friends how much of a failure I was in my marriage! I felt such deep emotional sadness and turmoil! Al-Anon helped me to understand that I truly did not cause this! In time, I began to understand my true part in that dynamic and stopped feeling sorry for myself. I no longer blamed myself for the demise of my marriage. So I too stay with my program so that I can continue to "put down that stick" that I so often pick up to beat myself.
Bo said
Apr 17, 2019
For me, and in my experience, I've seen with many people -- the extent of someones denial, or even being able to see it, really is not the issue at hand. While in denial, our feelings, our thinking, our lives, have become hijacked. What is just as important -- maybe more important -- than people to recognize their denial, and that they are in denial...IS THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ACCEPT all that they are feeling that has lead them to being in denial in the first place. Until that -- what we do is fight the denial. We defend our thinking and our behavior. We rationalize, justify...and we do whatever we can TO STAY IN THE DENIAL.
I remember when I wife was drinking, I would explain that she was "using" alcohol to help, to medicate, to alleviate her stress, anxiety, fears, and more. I negotiated with her when she was drinking less, I bought into the fact that she was drinking only a bottle of wine, instead of two, or just a six pack, instead of more. I negotiated with her and the disease. I gave credibility and validity by being in denial. I complimented and praised her efforts to drink less, and her efforts to medicate and her trying to feel better.
What I also learned is that when someone is in denial that a relationship is bad for them...unhealthy, toxic for them...they may accept that the person is bad for them, the relationship is bad for them, that it's unhealthy, toxic, etc. -- but they are more in denial about the feelings that are triggered and that exist and arise in the relationship! So it goes from being in denial about the latter, and then about the former. I was in denial about all the feelings. I didn't want them. I didn't like them. That denial then progressed, grew, and consumed me and then I was in denial about the entire relationship. Denial is a cognitive process where we try to alter, change, and yes, deny, the experience of unwanted, uncomfortable, undesirable, and (what we make as) unacceptable feelings and emotions. Our thinking has been hijacked.
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 17th of April 2019 02:36:47 PM
mamalioness said
Apr 18, 2019
Thank you for this very interesting and need to read topic for me. In the past, I had to be in denial because to face what I was facing, would have absolutely overwhelmed and devastated me
So for me, denial was a protection mechanism that if I did not have it, I would not have survived my childhood
Now, as I evolve More into the program, I dont want to be in denial, I want the truth, I want what is real, reality, honesty , The truth, even if it hurts because I have changed and grown in the program enough to where the truth is what I crave because I lived in lies and needing to be in denial to protect myself.
Taking me out of Denial and into the truth, sets me free to work a proper program and to feel the writing emotions, so I can come to acceptance and therefore right action to take care of myself
If denial is just a temporary thing to sort of prepare me for the truth later on, and the dealing with the situation in a realistic manner, then I think denial can be an OK thing if I am not ready to face the ugly facts of whatever situation comes at me. Sometimes I have to shut down and just ignore it or detach from it, not face it for a while because Im just not ready. But as long as I dont stay in that mode for a long time, and I eventually see the reality for what it is, then I believe I will be OK. As long as denial is just a temporary Band-Aid sort of situation until I can really be able to deal with what is at hand
I hope this post made sense, I have just gotten up and I have not had my breakfast yet LOL
2HP said
Apr 18, 2019
Although I've never been a huge fan the movie, I am reminded me of the look on Ralphie's face when Santa says,
"YOU'LL SHOOT YOUR EYE OUT, KID!"
If the intellect had power, I imagine my CEO husband would not have become alcoholic, and all the PhD's we had hired to save our marriage might have been more successful at waking us up... I imagine our planet wouldn't be in the sorry shape it is in. etc.etc. Even my favorite story in the Big Book of AA is about a physician in his deep denial.
They told me early on that we have a "thinking" problem... and that my best teachers would always be great suffering - and great love.
What I sincerely love about this thread is the HOPE everyone has shared, even if some of us did have to shoot our eye out first.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 18th of April 2019 01:30:08 PM
Bo said
Apr 19, 2019
I used denial -- unintentionally -- to hide, mask, make disappear, etc., painful, negative, uncomfortable emotions, thoughts, situations, etc. I used denial to avoid and deny when I was feeling shame, hurt, fear, guilt, anxiety, hopelessness, helplessness, and so much more. The scary part for me was that I didn't know this is what was going on. It became innate and automatic.
The result was that I lost "my feelings" and "my thoughts" -- and denial hijacked my being. It also resulted in denial not allowing me to feel happy and positive things -- because my life was hijacked by the negative and the painful things. I stopped going to hockey games and football games. I stopped going to dinner parties and charity events.
And, about the relationship -- I didn't realize that I was not just in denial that the relationship was bad, toxic, damaging and unhealthy for me -- I was in complete and total denial as to what I was feeling and thinking!!! I had no feelings or thoughts!!! Imagine if your child told you the story you were living!!! Would you be able to not tell your child... "RUN!!!!!" Imagine if you heard this story from a friend...you would know exactly what to do, what to tell them, how to advise them, guide them, suggest to them, and so on. BUT...WHEN it was ME...All was gone. All was lost. I had no idea! Remember, denial is a cognitive process!!! That means something. You just can't throw up and it's gone. You can't just take a pill and it goes away! When your thinking and feelings become hijacked and distorted...you have lost who you are.
Think about denial this way...if someone is in denial...perhaps they are simply trying to ignore the truth, ignore the reality...about what they actually feel and think, and what they would normally feel and think...in addition to what they are doing and who they are being. Perhaps they are trying to ignore everything else, other than what and where the denial has them.
Riley3 said
Apr 22, 2019
Great topic.. if I am in denial then I dont have a problem. Everything is great around me. I can function within this bubble. I have energy because I am focused on tasks that are important to me and my family. Bills are paid. Kids are happy. Responsibility and accountability are respected attributes. Everyone shows up for dinner. There are conversations with what is going on in everyones live. I dont have to guess when someone is coming home. I am told the truth. I am not lonely because I am with my family and friends. Friends come over for dinners.
If I am not in denial, I have to admit that that I none of the above.
Sometimes I need my bubble just to be content and happy, otherwise, I get to let chaos in the door and be mentally exhausted all the time. Emotionally I am whipped and so depressed.
Denial is a powerful brain transformation.
I can see it coming to greet me. I dont want to say hello and stay awhile.
Bo said
Apr 22, 2019
For me, when I was in denial -- everything wasn't great -- but I made everything "OK" so to speak. That was the blind spot -- that I didn't see, I couldn't see -- my thinking, my decision making, my mindset, my vision, everything was HIJACKED. As they say in the rooms of alanon -- my thinking had become distorted. Everything had become distorted. So, I couldn't see, or accept, REALITY. That's denial.
The Titanic was sinking, but I was saying, thinking, behaving, and making everything out to be "OK" -- not reality!
Bo said
Apr 30, 2019
I just experienced something interesting regarding denial -- and it made me reflect on my pre-recovery days. I am so grateful for the life I have and live now. I don't get caught up with or in unhealthy people, and I avoid those I feel are unhealthy and who could have a negative impact on me, my life, my well-being, and so on. The mother of my daughter -- my daughter is 24 now -- is an unhealthy person. She's not a bad person doing bad things...she is -- I think -- a good person, who can make life difficult, challenging, and frustrating for other people. Unfortunately, I still have to communicate with her on one item -- and only one item -- my daughter's financial aid from school. That is now coupled with the fact that my daughter lives abroad, so I handle various financial matters for her.
Anyway, what I've learned is that people can use denial to run away from negative emotions, feelings, realities, etc. But they can also be running away from things like shame, embarrassment, guilt, stress, stressful situations, and so on. However, I see denial also negating or dismissing positive things as well -- joy, happiness, excitement. Sure, there is the immediate, instant, brief gratification. But then when that's over...then what? For me, sometimes denial was a way for me to not be vulnerable. Get that? In order to avoid being vulnerable -- in a relationship -- I would be in denial, I would live in denial, I would stay in denial. That in my mind, kept me safe! I wasn't vulnerable!
Denying the reality of our feelings and emotions is common. It's part of what denial is all about. I actually think we see it here, on this bulletin board. In a dead medium, someone "explains" -- and what is the genesis of what? What's the dynamic of that? Explain, justify, convince, sell, rationalize, vacillate, defend, argue, prove, and how many more -- and they can all be on the spectrum of the same behavior. One more "extreme" than another, but all on the same spectrum. At it's core, we may deny the reality of anything -- simply because accepting (see, accepting, acceptance? LOL) the reality of whatever -- is, not what we want, painful, uncomfortable, hurtful, scary, unknown, who knows what else. It isn't what we expected, hoped for, wanted, would like, and so on. Could be one or could be many.
However, all things considered, and aside...it is about US. If you are in denial...perhaps you are simply ignoring the truth, the reality, about what you actually and really feel...rather than ignoring the truth, the reality, about what you are doing or thinking. Thought-provoking? Feel vs. think. Feel vs. what you are doing?
Freetime said
Apr 30, 2019
Bo, I can definitely relate to denial of my feelings. Especially feelings that seem to be "wrong."
Denying anger towards my sick alcoholic spouse... because surely it's not right to be angry at a sick person. Denying sadness, because I don't want to burden others with my feelings which might make them sad too. Denying happiness, because it might not last.
Accepting feelings, positive and negative, is a lifelong journey -- and program tools help with this. I can accept positive feelings because now I know I deserve happiness. I can accept negative feelings because I know I am strong enough to deal with them.
This was the topic at a meeting I went to last weekend...and the person who did the topic had a very interesting, and very fascinating "slant" or "approach" to the topic of denial. She focused on denial as it relates only to OUR denial, as the loved one of an alcoholic. This had ZERO to do with the denial of an alcoholic or addict. Just US. I. WE. She started with denial being something that ebbs and flows, is fluid, changes over time, and occurs, lives, breathes, on a spectrum, spanning the course of time. She referenced JADE -- the acronym meaning Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain -- and how very often that exists in the context of SOMEONE ELSE...how we justify, defend, explain, and argue, our position, what we think, what we do, why we did it, and so on, to someone else, perhaps, mainly the alcoholic. I can't count the times I tried to defend to my wife, why I made my boundaries and actually implemented them. I can't count the number of times I had to defend myself for doing what I did, or, not doing what she wanted me to do! And so on and so on. I can't count how many times I justified, rationalized, and tried to explain to my wife...hundreds of things, thoughts, feelings, incidents, actions, not taking action, etc.
However, she focused on JADE as it relates to US. To me! She then portrayed OUR denial, what we do and how we rationalize it, defend it, justify it, TO OURSELVES...and how we convince OURSELVES. Whatever it is we are doing it about...just the fact that we are in denial...and the denial is OURS. Very thought provoking. For me, I started to think about what brought on the denial, then the JADE process, and the outcomes. I found this topic, and her portrayal of it very thought provoking, if only for the fact that someone else verbalized, clearly and concisely, something I knew, experienced, felt, etc., for many years -- but perhaps in a subconscious or cognitive dissonance type of way. It was there, but I didn't get it. It was there, but I didn't see it. It was a blind spot.
She talked about "denials" of the past -- only in reference to her finding recovery, and the progress she made...and how she no longer found herself in denial, allowed herself to get there, be there, or even head down that road.
So, for me, denial starts with just that. Denial. I am in denial, avoiding, not wanting to see, feel, experience, admit, understand, whatever you want to call it. It proceeds, progresses, and is no different than me lying to myself. I don't mean lying in a condescending or critical way. It is simply the absolute, the verb. I am lying to myself. Why? I don't want to face...what? The truth. I don't want to see it, deal with it, take action, have to do something about it, and have to make a change -- in me, my thinking, my actions, my reactions, my behavior, or even simply a change to what is. So, I am in denial. Denial might appear to keep me away from and free from pain. But, does it really? Denial can prolong pain. It can push it off perhaps. But I have not escaped the pain. In alanon we learn that pain is inevitable, and suffering is optional! There is meaning, an understand, an entire philosophy behind that little catch-phrase. I was in denial about...my wife's drinking. The extent of it. That it was a problem. That it was affecting her, her health, her life. That it was affecting me, my life, my health...and our marriage. I was in denial about starting a family with an alcoholic. I was in denial that my wife was an alcoholic. I tried to convince myself that her drinking didn't bother me and wasn't even affecting me! Then I came to alanon. I walked into my first face to face meeting, and haven't stopped going back for a quarter of a century. I am not an alcoholic, so I my focus is and always has been on alanon and my recovery, my alanon recovery, no other recovery. My denial was innate. My denial was fact. Then I came to alanon.
After denial, in order to stay there, be safe there -- LOL, ironic isn't it, be safe in denial? -- that's when I started to JADE...but NOT TO OTHERS...TO MYSELF!!! I justified, I defended, I explained, I rationalized, and I convinced MYSELF...so I didn't even have to argue!!! LOL. By doing this, what did it allow me to do? It allowed me to STAY IN DENIAL!
Before I found recovery, and actually started my journey in recovery...I was in denial about almost everything.
So...forget about the why...focus on the what...What were or what are you in denial about...focus on YOU...what are you in denial about? Part 2 to follow, LOL.
I have come to believe that -- just like my other defects -- denial had a positive intention, but was a tool used in the wrong way. It was self-protection, which is a kind of self-care, except it is being used to excess or used on the wrong target. Positive thinking is healthy; ignoring or refusing obvious truth is not so healthy. The Al-Anon literature is really great at expressing that balance of truth and self-care.
Our membership is rooted in heavy denial. Alcoholism is a spiritual disease, after all. Our inability to connect with and trust our HP has us running riot in self-will and denial.
It has been said that "De Nile" is NOT just a river in Africa, and is rampant - not only amongst Alcoholics, but also amongst we Al-Anoners as well.....
This post brought up a strong memory for me.....
Blame - I was at a family conference at my ex-wife's treatment center, and was talking to one of the counselors there.... I had been attending Al-Anon for a few years, and I guess I was fairly full of myself, etc.... He asked if there was anything else bothering me, and I told him, truthfully, that "part of me almost wanted my wife to use again, so that I could walk away from the marriage, honorably, once and for all". Now, I would have sworn at the time that I was no longer 'playing the victim', but his response almost floored me. I was half expecting a bit of a "poor Tom, it must be really hard" kinda response, but the counselor instead said: "of course you do... that way you can continue to blame your wife for everything that goes wrong in your life, and not take personal accountability for anything!" Well, I....... he......... was 100% right...
Tom
Oh, what an interesting post and topic! Yes, when we talk about denial we are usually, mostly, always referencing the alcoholic. This is so thought provoking.....and certainly puts a new spin on things. Thank you, Bo!
Canadianguy.wow the counselor really hit hard with that one.....but it is so much easier to blame the A for all that is wrong.....our own form of denial.
Great topic!
I don't think I was ever in denial about the disease...
Thanks Bo... 
...
...when I was 12 I got a part time job as a carrot boy- it gave me a modest income. Our foreman was the local policeman. I was in his car one day- and he went in round the back of the local pub. He came out with whiskey and beer. And his hand did not go into his pocket once.
Pubs were supposed to close at 6- so fathers would go home and have a meal- with their families. It never happened around that pub.
I knew- even with that job that I would never get a decent education- or have decent clothes- or have a reasonable family life. Our family finances were going down the gurgler- and I knew why!
My denial was denial of my own thoughts and emotions. Bolted down. As I wrote that share above this- there was a certain irony and bitterness in it. But saying out loud was helpful. it is getting me through the next few moments.
I can talk these days without seeming angry and bitter, or sulking. I live in the present much more- having given away my store of shame and bitterness.
Thanks.
I feel blessed to be an A as I fully understand the power and the allure of the poison to an A. What brought me to Al-Anon was this distorted idea that as a wife, mother, daughter, sister, etc. I should have some level of influence (EGO/POWER) over the actions of another - an A or not! I was working hard to control, manage, manipulate, etc. well before my boys ever had their first drink/drug - I just didn't know what I was doing was 'wrong'. I was in denial about who I was, who I was supposed to be and how I was supposed to get there. My job as a parent is to teach and prepare for adulthood + keep them safe/alive to adult age. I took that job way too seriously and to the extreme! I know better and do better today, and if I passed tomorrow, my boys would have the 'adulting skills' necessary to survive/thrive.
In Al-Anon, denial is easy to spot - when another is sharing and makes mention of their A, there is denial. Today, with a spiritual foundation that suggests to me we are all imperfectly created by a power greater than any of us, anytime I beginning to judge, blame, shame another or myself - I am in denial again. Our simple program asks us to live one day at a time, do the next right thing, be true to ourselves, and be of service. When I keep things simple, my days are easy and I am spiritually centered.
I also feel blessed that our Al-Anon meetings here locally strongly encourage any discussion or reference to the A - what they are doing, if they are/are not drinking, etc. Instead, we drill down as best as we can on what is making us 'tick' - sad, happy, joyous, troubled, etc. For me, anytime I am leaning towards placing blame for my lot in life or my current emotions on another person, place or thing, I have returned to denial.
For me also, the opposite of denial is acceptance. With practice, practice and more practice, I've added unconditional to that - simply because that reminds me it's not my place to change anyone but me. I see many who are stuck talking about, referring to, blaming or wondering about their A and am grateful I am beyond that. It's taken every hospital stay, jail visit, OD, relapse, car crash, etc. to 'get here' but I do know deep in my soul and heart today that no matter what anyone is/is not doing, who I am and how I am is all on me!
Great topic and lovely shares!
What I really like in this post is the proposition that we can JADE ourselves. That was another FOO survival skill that I wound up using on myself, and by the responses here, I can see that I'm not alone. As I learned over time that I did not have to JADE another person who was trying to manipulate me, I eventually was also able to generalize that new ability to identify any time I was trying to implement JADE...including with myself.
That's one of the neatest things about the "life tools co-op" that is Al-Anon: tools we pick up and learn to use with the problematic people in our lives are, in many cases, tools we can also use with the man or woman in the mirror!
One of the earliest denial situations for me was -- how important is it vs. accepting unacceptable behavior!!! I was co-dependent in this unhealthy, toxic, abusive relationship...and I didn't know it!!! So, when little things would happen, that would be unacceptable to a normal, healthy person, me of today for example, I would dismiss it and say the following -- that's not her, that's the disease, she's wonderful person, she loves, me, I love her, our life is wonderful EXCEPT, and so on...but I would then say "How important is it" -- and that got me to accept unacceptable behavior!!! So I would constantly say how important is it, it's not that important, it's not a big deal, it's not really her...and there I was, getting worse and worse, accepting unacceptable behavior...time and time again!!!
Interesting approach to the "How important is it" slogan, Bo.
It definitely shows that we all have our own filters and approach to our tools.
"How important is it?" really saved me from a lot of pain and unnecessary stress. I would put huge significance on things that truly were not worth dissolving my serenity over. But honestly I never found I used it as a means to accept unacceptable behavior.
I did come to a place of compassion with the active A that was in my life through that slogan, however. But compassion for me didn't mean just lying down and being a doormat or living in denial.
I just got the blessing of learning to love and accept him for who he was - disease and all - and then show even more compassion for both of us by stepping out of his life and going my own way. I found a lot of his behavior was just the disease. I knew he was a wonderful person deep down. I knew we both loved each other. I also knew he wasn't going to change - and that was okay for HIM if he didn't change, but it wasn't going to be okay for me.
"How important is it?" removed self-righteous judgement from my own perspectives. I certainly was full of self-righteousness before Al-Anon. I mean - didn't the A KNOW what he was doing was wrong? Shouldn't he know better? I'd never do such a thing to him! I know better! It's important he get this!
I had an amicable divorce with my A, and I thank Al-Anon for that gift. I only feel it was amicable because of slogans like "How important is it?" It got me to lose the ego, take off the boxing gloves, and approach situations with compassion. Ultimately it enabled me to approach my relationships from a place that put principles before personalities.
-- Edited by Aloha on Wednesday 10th of April 2019 01:15:22 PM
What makes recovery special is how we are all given freedom to recover and use the tools that work for us. I suspect, possibly because of my own 'ism', my definition of unacceptable behavior is vastly different than others. I have a high tolerance for insanity simply because I've worn the shoes, and others had empathy and compassion for me even when I was at my worst. My sponsor does not allow me to pass judgement on what is vs. what is not acceptable behavior - we instead approach it from my boundary creation; this keeps me focused on self and not who or what others are/are not doing.
I really like this page that discusses the slogans and suggested intent. I know me well enough that I can/could twist just about anything to suit my own fancy left to my own devices/ego/self-will. So, I needed some suggested guidelines for the slogans to keep me grounded spiritually and mentally.
http://www.todays-hope.com/al-anon-slogans.html
Yes, there are certainly different perspectives on the slogans. That is why some resonate more than others and the circumstances we are in. I am getting a lot out of all the shares.
Thank you, IAH for the link you included. I saved it to read more thoroughly at my leisure.....probably many times!
Ellen
I chalked it up to -- she's depressed, she's focused on her son who is an addict, she's not well, she doesn't love herself, so she can't love me, and so on.
More denial...more pain!
I remember learning that I was doing things to make her feel better. But I realized I was doing things to make me feel better. BUT...even if I did feel better...it was only for a brief moment! Why? Because I didn't get the outcome I wanted, I didn't get the results I wanted. I may have gotten a thank you or some acknowledgement...but that was it...then I went back to feeling pain and feeling hurt!!!
More denial.
But from that moment on, my wife, at home, would often say "Even the therapist thinks you are in denial!!!" Wow. Scary. Her version of reality and/or her denial was so ingrained, she had to deflect, shift, gaslight, whatever, to get the entire focus and conversation AWAY from her drinking. I get it. Very sad. By that time, I was no longer trying to blame, point the finger, etc. However, every session, every break-down in communication, every topic, starting a family, going away on vacation, whatever it was...always ended up back at her drinking. It was a never-ending maze of a discussion. Her drinking was destroying her life...and our marriage. That wasn't her doing. That wasn't my doing. That was the disease...one which she refused, didn't want to, or see, she had.
Thank you for sharing that great link, Iamhere. Love it.
You are so right - ultimately we are the ones who have to live in our own skins. We all have our own levels of tolerance for things and that's perfectly fine. What some people may find intolerable others have no issue with. What's important is we find out for ourselves what our own boundaries are and then learn how to maintain those boundaries for our own serenity.
Empathy certainly played a huge role it my decisions around what things were important to me. I'm not an A, but I could easily be one. Who am I to judge another's ability to behave in a way that I find acceptable? I at times can barely control my own impulses. All I can do is keep checking in with myself and taking my own temperature - if a situation is still making me uncomfortable, then I need to take the steps to change what's going on, and that change can only successfully come about when it comes from me.
I saw myself in Bo's second post about denial... and I also saw myself in Ahoha's response to that post. A duality.
Iamhere - thank you for providing the link.
Denial also became a major defense mechanism for me. It was the only way I could cope with what was going on. I kept chalking everything up to coincidence, wrong place, wrong time, she was sick, food poisoning, drank on an empty stomach, it wasn't the alcohol, and over and over and over again. I became the person in denial with everyone seeing that I wasn't facing the reality of the situation and my wife's drinking.
Yes, I was guilty of JADE and doing it to me! I did JADE everyone who was trying to help me see that my wife was an alcoholic. Yes, I did JADE everyone who was watching me enable her. Yes, I did JADE everyone who was watching me be obsessed with the alcoholic!
Denial temporarily kept me out of pain...OR SO I THOUGHT IT DID...it did not.
I was in denial that I was angry. I acted as if. I was in the fake it till I make it camp, and I stayed there for a long time. Once in a while, I would interrogate my wife, trying to prove to her that she was drunk. I remember once her telling me she hadn't drank all day and hadn't touched any liquor that was in the fridge or the bar...I asked her what about the liquor hidden all over the house. She asked what was I talking about. I said, you really want to go with that answer, just answer my question and we'll drop it...unless you really want me to show you what I am talking about. She denied, deflected, pointed at me, etc.
So I calmly walked around the house, pulling bottles from all of their hiding spots...and stopped at 12 bottles! I asked her if I should continue.
How unhealthy was I? For a nanosecond, I felt better because I was right. That's how unhealthy I was...the point, feeling better, etc., was a result of me being right. So sad.
Then I found recovery. Today I love my life.
My obsession, with controlling another grown adults life developed over time. I rationalized and justified many of my decisions because I was MOM and felt a very misplaced sense of responsibility for my daughters choices. I looked for and made up, all kinds of scenarios why she may be doing what she is doing. I neglected my other family members, my job and my friends as I was to preoccupied saving her.
Day in day out as I sat there, my pot of water was getting hotter and hotter and I didn't realize it. A few brave souls who tried to poke at my own denial were met with a steely resistance. After all, I knew best and I was going to be the exception to the rule. I was going to "fix" my daughter, life was going to return to "normal" and it would all be a bad memory. Yikes! Luckily for me, I didn't end up like the frog. When my pot of water was boiling, I finally jumped out and embraced my own program of recovery. By working my program, I am much better at focusing on my own life.
I have a lot of compassion for my daughters struggles, but I am no longer enmeshed in her life. She is a child of God first, and was given to me secondly to raise to the best of my ability. I did my job. Now, I strive to live my life one day at a time, without judgement of myself or others.
I was simply avoiding reality and explaining it, rationalizing it, or vacillating it away.
But denial is also about dismissing the implications and consequences of my behavior, actions, non-actions, decisions, etc. Denial can be a defense based state, but can also be for us in how we do not want to acknowledge that really bad things are going on in our lives. Denial allows us to defend ourselves and cope with what we feel, want to feel, and don't want to feel. Denial allows us to contradict reality -- the reality of our situation, circumstances, etc.
I can appreciate the topic since denial is where I sat before step one. It was indeed helpful for me to see how my own dishonesty (denial) protected me from dealing with something I was not yet ready to deal with. Eventually I had to own that and take responsibility for my situation.
I do believe however, that until we are fully awakened saints - we're still in denial.
Eventually I found that pain has its virtue, it starts us "seeking" the solution. More shall be revealed when we are good and ready, that is just the way it works. I don't believe in shaming myself for not knowing what I wasn't ready to know. To be human is not a shortcoming.
Today I feel grateful for the alcoholic experience because it pushed me along the path I enjoy today. It has helped me connect more deeply with others, loosen my expectations, and have more compassion for us all. It takes courage to keep trudging the road.
-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 15th of April 2019 12:04:04 PM
Bo: "When I think denial I think when I failed to recognize"
Brother, do you really believe you "failed?"
I don't believe "I failed" as much as I believe I was powerless. My dishonesty or denial was my powerlessness under the fog of delusion, I just couldn't see what I couldn't see.... powerless.
"I can't (not I failed...) God can.... I think I'll relax and let Him...."
Until I admitted I had no power, I wouldn't have gone on to develop faith in that power greater than myself. That relationship is necessary to my recovery and it began with a real need for Him.
-- Edited by 2HP on Tuesday 16th of April 2019 07:51:10 AM
"Should have known better" are some pretty insidious words in my vocabulary. I allowed those words to plunge me into a deep depression a few years ago - it was to the point that I was having suicidal thoughts. I'm glad I found my way out of it, and ultimately it's because I've been learning to cut myself a LOT of slack and laugh off my mistakes. I actually imagine God watching me from wherever he/she is and just laughing at me like he/she is watching a little puppy fumble around, saying "Aw - look at that. She did it again. So cute. I love her SO much!"
I have to give myself a break. It's okay that I didn't see everything immediately. It's okay that I excused things in the past that I wouldn't excuse now. We are all on this planet on a journey to learn and expand. We don't and can't learn and expand if we already know everything, right?
I know for me, my HP isn't going to shun me for not knowing better. I only know that because I did the heavy foot-work with steps 1-3 and developed a relationship with a loving and forgiving higher power. All my past mistakes - be they around denial, fear, selfishness, dishonesty, etc, are just that. Past mistakes that I've learned from. Continually going back and ruminating on them doesn't help me. That's what my 4th, 5th and 6th steps were all about. Clearing out the wreckage and then allowing myself to move forward.
One of my good AA friends likes to say "Rule 62!" to me quite often. What's "Rule 62"? It's "Don't take yourself too seriously." I like that rule.
I am fully entranced by the level of discussion on the OP!!!
Thank you, thank you!!!
Here are some stand-out things for me:
"My obsession, with controlling another grown adults life developed over time."
"For me, I was in denial about being in denial!!! That allowed me to stay in denial even though I didn't know it!
I was simply avoiding reality and explaining it, rationalizing it, or vacillating it away.
But denial is also about dismissing the implications and consequences of my behavior, actions, non-actions, decisions, etc. Denial can be a defense based state, but can also be for us in how we do not want to acknowledge that really bad things are going on in our lives. Denial allows us to defend ourselves and cope with what we feel, want to feel, and don't want to feel. Denial allows us to contradict reality -- the reality of our situation, circumstances, etc."
"To be human is not a shortcoming." - Thank you, 2HP for this reminder!
"Until I admitted I had no power, I wouldn't have gone on to develop faith in that power greater than myself. That relationship is necessary to my recovery and it began with a real need for Him. "
"Part of my disease comes out as perfectionism. I would beat the crap out of myself mentally over a lot of things. I still can do that - and a lot of that self-abuse comes in the form of my saying to myself "I should have known better."
Thank you all for helping me grow today. I am blessed to have been "awakened!"
Denial is a very deep counseling subject also and I use to understand as the unwillingness to understand at thing. My clients participated in it with their unwillingness.
For me, coming from where I came from I carried an character of not knowing and not knowing that I was not knowing. My VA counselor discovered that. When I came into recovery I couldn't pronounce alcoholism and would not have been able to even spell it. The title of the Alateen reader described my condition with it asking, "What's Drunk Mommy"? In my family of origin a child never used that adjective on a relative and I could expect to be punished very badly if I did because it was considered very disrespectful. My mother was abusive enough in her punishing style and I had no need to escalate it.
I knew the condition of my family and could not talk about it with anyone. I had to find and accept the doors of Al-Anon and then college and AA to come to understand. The members of my family drank alcohol and they did because they could. They didn't need special permission and booze was out in the open and as free as water so we drank it like water. For most of my life that is how I drank alcohol; freely, openly and as much as I wanted without knowing about alcoholism, alcoholic, alcohol.
When I got into Al-Anon and College I learn, "Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical and it causes alcoholism, a compulsion to drink and with an allergy to the body". Class was open...learning started coming and I now knew what was happening to me when I an my family drank. I came to understand and now I know...cannot deny cause they are right. (((hugs)))
I was using the word "failed" in the psychology context. So, no, I don't think I failed. I was more going through in my head the feelings I was feeling, what I was thinking, etc. -- ex post facto -- and the understanding I had/have of denial, in the intellectual, psychological context. Thanks.
el-cee - I just wanted to validate you on what you posted... that is how I saw/see MY denial. I spent a good 6 months after leaving my AH telling myself, my parents, my close friends how much of a failure I was in my marriage! I felt such deep emotional sadness and turmoil! Al-Anon helped me to understand that I truly did not cause this! In time, I began to understand my true part in that dynamic and stopped feeling sorry for myself. I no longer blamed myself for the demise of my marriage. So I too stay with my program so that I can continue to "put down that stick" that I so often pick up to beat myself.
For me, and in my experience, I've seen with many people -- the extent of someones denial, or even being able to see it, really is not the issue at hand. While in denial, our feelings, our thinking, our lives, have become hijacked. What is just as important -- maybe more important -- than people to recognize their denial, and that they are in denial...IS THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ACCEPT all that they are feeling that has lead them to being in denial in the first place. Until that -- what we do is fight the denial. We defend our thinking and our behavior. We rationalize, justify...and we do whatever we can TO STAY IN THE DENIAL.
I remember when I wife was drinking, I would explain that she was "using" alcohol to help, to medicate, to alleviate her stress, anxiety, fears, and more. I negotiated with her when she was drinking less, I bought into the fact that she was drinking only a bottle of wine, instead of two, or just a six pack, instead of more. I negotiated with her and the disease. I gave credibility and validity by being in denial. I complimented and praised her efforts to drink less, and her efforts to medicate and her trying to feel better.
What I also learned is that when someone is in denial that a relationship is bad for them...unhealthy, toxic for them...they may accept that the person is bad for them, the relationship is bad for them, that it's unhealthy, toxic, etc. -- but they are more in denial about the feelings that are triggered and that exist and arise in the relationship! So it goes from being in denial about the latter, and then about the former. I was in denial about all the feelings. I didn't want them. I didn't like them. That denial then progressed, grew, and consumed me and then I was in denial about the entire relationship. Denial is a cognitive process where we try to alter, change, and yes, deny, the experience of unwanted, uncomfortable, undesirable, and (what we make as) unacceptable feelings and emotions. Our thinking has been hijacked.
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 17th of April 2019 02:36:47 PM
So for me, denial was a protection mechanism that if I did not have it, I would not have survived my childhood
Now, as I evolve More into the program, I dont want to be in denial, I want the truth, I want what is real, reality, honesty , The truth, even if it hurts because I have changed and grown in the program enough to where the truth is what I crave because I lived in lies and needing to be in denial to protect myself.
Taking me out of Denial and into the truth, sets me free to work a proper program and to feel the writing emotions, so I can come to acceptance and therefore right action to take care of myself
If denial is just a temporary thing to sort of prepare me for the truth later on, and the dealing with the situation in a realistic manner, then I think denial can be an OK thing if I am not ready to face the ugly facts of whatever situation comes at me. Sometimes I have to shut down and just ignore it or detach from it, not face it for a while because Im just not ready. But as long as I dont stay in that mode for a long time, and I eventually see the reality for what it is, then I believe I will be OK. As long as denial is just a temporary Band-Aid sort of situation until I can really be able to deal with what is at hand
I hope this post made sense, I have just gotten up and I have not had my breakfast yet LOL
Although I've never been a huge fan the movie, I am reminded me of the look on Ralphie's face when Santa says,
"YOU'LL SHOOT YOUR EYE OUT, KID!"
If the intellect had power, I imagine my CEO husband would not have become alcoholic, and all the PhD's we had hired to save our marriage might have been more successful at waking us up... I imagine our planet wouldn't be in the sorry shape it is in. etc.etc. Even my favorite story in the Big Book of AA is about a physician in his deep denial.
They told me early on that we have a "thinking" problem... and that my best teachers would always be great suffering - and great love.
What I sincerely love about this thread is the HOPE everyone has shared, even if some of us did have to shoot our eye out first.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 18th of April 2019 01:30:08 PM
The result was that I lost "my feelings" and "my thoughts" -- and denial hijacked my being. It also resulted in denial not allowing me to feel happy and positive things -- because my life was hijacked by the negative and the painful things. I stopped going to hockey games and football games. I stopped going to dinner parties and charity events.
And, about the relationship -- I didn't realize that I was not just in denial that the relationship was bad, toxic, damaging and unhealthy for me -- I was in complete and total denial as to what I was feeling and thinking!!! I had no feelings or thoughts!!! Imagine if your child told you the story you were living!!! Would you be able to not tell your child... "RUN!!!!!" Imagine if you heard this story from a friend...you would know exactly what to do, what to tell them, how to advise them, guide them, suggest to them, and so on. BUT...WHEN it was ME...All was gone. All was lost. I had no idea! Remember, denial is a cognitive process!!! That means something. You just can't throw up and it's gone. You can't just take a pill and it goes away! When your thinking and feelings become hijacked and distorted...you have lost who you are.
Think about denial this way...if someone is in denial...perhaps they are simply trying to ignore the truth, ignore the reality...about what they actually feel and think, and what they would normally feel and think...in addition to what they are doing and who they are being. Perhaps they are trying to ignore everything else, other than what and where the denial has them.
The Titanic was sinking, but I was saying, thinking, behaving, and making everything out to be "OK" -- not reality!
Anyway, what I've learned is that people can use denial to run away from negative emotions, feelings, realities, etc. But they can also be running away from things like shame, embarrassment, guilt, stress, stressful situations, and so on. However, I see denial also negating or dismissing positive things as well -- joy, happiness, excitement. Sure, there is the immediate, instant, brief gratification. But then when that's over...then what? For me, sometimes denial was a way for me to not be vulnerable. Get that? In order to avoid being vulnerable -- in a relationship -- I would be in denial, I would live in denial, I would stay in denial. That in my mind, kept me safe! I wasn't vulnerable!
Denying the reality of our feelings and emotions is common. It's part of what denial is all about. I actually think we see it here, on this bulletin board. In a dead medium, someone "explains" -- and what is the genesis of what? What's the dynamic of that? Explain, justify, convince, sell, rationalize, vacillate, defend, argue, prove, and how many more -- and they can all be on the spectrum of the same behavior. One more "extreme" than another, but all on the same spectrum. At it's core, we may deny the reality of anything -- simply because accepting (see, accepting, acceptance? LOL) the reality of whatever -- is, not what we want, painful, uncomfortable, hurtful, scary, unknown, who knows what else. It isn't what we expected, hoped for, wanted, would like, and so on. Could be one or could be many.
However, all things considered, and aside...it is about US. If you are in denial...perhaps you are simply ignoring the truth, the reality, about what you actually and really feel...rather than ignoring the truth, the reality, about what you are doing or thinking. Thought-provoking? Feel vs. think. Feel vs. what you are doing?
Denying anger towards my sick alcoholic spouse... because surely it's not right to be angry at a sick person. Denying sadness, because I don't want to burden others with my feelings which might make them sad too. Denying happiness, because it might not last.
Accepting feelings, positive and negative, is a lifelong journey -- and program tools help with this. I can accept positive feelings because now I know I deserve happiness. I can accept negative feelings because I know I am strong enough to deal with them.