It was one of those "strange" (no really) conversations with Rachel that ended with her saying, "How about I never talk to you ever f****** again". And I hadn't done anything or said anything to warrant that reaction and then I think, "ahhh, there you go again trying to make sense of the actions of an addict." And I didn't reply to that text because HOW, and then my mind started to do that, "What do I DO? Will she stay this way? Get worse? Die?" And guess what. I have no control over the outcome of the dear daughter. None at all. And then I started to think that maybe MY addiction is that turmoil of gotta solve, keep her off the edge, save her! And if I take the approach that I only have to deal with NOW. Just now and that is all....get through the day in the best possible way and let it go.
I had to work tonight and I just got home. Work didn't go so great so I was dealing with that, too. Work is ok though. Everything is always ok but not with my daughter. It is the one thing that I really care about that I have no control over and I have no control over making her have control over her either, lol.
So I hope now that I posted this, I can sleep. I am supposed to take the dear one to renew her state ID tomorrow. I don't even want to see her, I never get an "I'm sorry". She doesn't ever seem to remember that she said something horrible anyway.
I took her to get new contacts last week because she was wearing JUST ONE for months when it is not supposed to stay in that long. Please help me to remember to take a bite of only one day at a time. THAT is manageable. Anything bigger is not. Breathe.
I love y'all. <3
-- Edited by Iamhere on Monday 25th of March 2019 06:41:08 AM
mamalioness said
Mar 24, 2019
hey!! you sound STRONGER!!!! Really, I see progress!!!! Finally you see that #1, you are powerless...#2, you can only pray for her and take care of yourself and #3, you seemd to do a quickie step 10 on all this
Its hard, watching a loved one not in recovery, doing themselves in over and over and you are hopin they hit bottom FAST so they will be forced into recovery, but even then, it MAY happen or it may NOT happen....My A brother and I are very close, I hold ZERO expectations of his ever getting into AA and arresting his drinking...however , he seems to be sorta interested in working the steps with me...Great!!! but I take care of me, hope for the best, but ZERO expectations of anything or anyone outside of myself....My HP helps me when i hellp myself, AND then turn it over/surrender it when i've done all I can.....
sending you LOADS of peace energy.....and yes, ODAT is key to serenity.....
Iamhere said
Mar 25, 2019
(((Rachelsmom))) - sorry for the pain this disease continues to cause! I edited the f word - just to 'keep it clean'! For me, when my child is hurting and the disease is active and in control, I do best when I step up my program, my readings, my service to others, etc. Stepping up my own program effort really helps me live the Serenity Prayer and get back to the center of the boat, where I prefer to be.
Sending prayers for you all - hopefully the errand(s) today go smoothly and hoping you got good rest last night! Keep coming back - you are worth it!
RachelsMom said
Mar 25, 2019
Mamalioness and Iamhere- I always look forward to hearing from you. I read a thread from each of you before I posted. Thanks for editing Iamhere. Maybe one day I will be helping someone like you guys are helping me.
Idontwannago, I dontwannago, I dontwannago! haha
Aloha said
Mar 25, 2019
What great recovery work, RachelsMom. I hope writing things out helped you and that you were able to get the rest you deserved.
I know it helps me to write things out. Sometimes I feel like it turns into a conversation with HP and while I write solutions come to me.
I love the reminders that we are powerless over others behaviors. There's nothing we can say or do that will change the outcome for the addict. HP is in charge, not us.
Keep taking good care of you and keep coming back.
RachelsMom said
Mar 25, 2019
Thanks Aloha. I'm learning in spite of myself! And I was right, she called this morning and started talking like we are the best of friends. I guess we are at the bottom of the roller coaster today....or maybe going back up? haha She cancelled our plans...wants to do it tomorrow instead. (By all means just go ahead and plan my life for me!*rolleyes*
Anyway, guess what you awesome teachers?? I slept fine.
tiredtonite said
Mar 25, 2019
I'm sorry for the hurt you're experiencing. It was helpful for me to hear from others in the program that "it's the disease talking" and not my loved one. Words can really sting sometimes and that statement helped to take the personalness out of it for me. Loving them until they love themselves was also helpful to hear but I also try to remember to love myself first and then give outward of myself. Resentments begin when I over extend myself or my motivation is to gain love or acceptance from others. It doesn't matter whether it's family or neighbor, the boundary has to be the same for me - self-care first. It sounds like hp stepped in and has given you a day's reprieve - a time to regroup, hold the serenity prayer a little closer so you can hold your dau a little closer, disease and all in whatever way feels right for the two of you. Prayers for the two of you for tolerance, gentleness with one another. (((hugs)) TT
Iamhere said
Mar 26, 2019
(((RachelsMom))) - so glad you got good rest. For me, that is a very helpful tool when I am interacting with the disease and the diseased! I'm still sending thoughts and prayers your way!
RachelsMom said
Mar 26, 2019
Thank you tiredtonight and Iamhere!
Question, sortof, tell me if this is weird.
My youngest daughter has a dog that lives here with me. She (the dog) is awesome but I noticed that when the dog is agitated or wanting something or wont settle down, I start to feel the same way. I see the way my daughter handles the dog and it is so calmly different than how I handle it. I wonder if that has anything to do with enabling/codependency? I mean, even the dogs mood has a big effect on me, like, an empathy thing? I suppose that sounds weird but on a simple level, the way the dog's mood has an effect on me instead of ME being the leader of the dog's mood is telling me something about myself.
I'm not into self hate so that's not what I'm feeling here. From what I understand about training a dog...the owner's "feelings" can determine the dogs confidence/comfort level. I should be the one in charge, this dog is expecting it and I'm all in an agitated emotional state. I should not own a dog, lol.
Ok, so my question is...do some of us human beings actually have a stronger urge toward empathy than other human beings? Is this an innate thing for such a person? So if I have this strong empathy thing that is innate (and that trait is considered weakness by most people) I just need to learn to recognize it and control it?
Looking forward to responses from y'all and if you don't follow this line of thinking at all....I want to know that, too! Lol at me, I'm something else, huh?
Iamhere said
Mar 26, 2019
Well - I am an animal lover and have had many dogs over the years. Once, I purchased a Sheltie - had wanted one for so very long, so did that. For the last 30+ years, I've done rescue instead. I believe, just like humans, every dog is individual and imperfect. I've had some that were more hyper than others and one that was just plain spastic. I do believe some breeds prefer to have a one/one relationship with their human and aren't comfortable around other dogs and extra humans.
Having said that, I believe the dog feeds off the human emotions vs. the reverse. If I am kind, sweet, loving, my dog is docile. If I am sad, crying, withdrawn, my dog is loving. If I am in a hurry, agitated or raising my voice - even just to announce dinner, she's hiding. The dog we had that was just plain spastic was probably in need of Al-A-Dog as it was growing up as the disease was dominating!
The best way I know to calm an excited dog is to sit on the floor, on their level, and talk calmly. If the dog is misbehaving or will not come, try a firm voice but not too loud. My awesome dog did not want to go outside today while I went to golf, and we had to have a come to jesus moment - I got low and looked her in the eyes and said, "Go" - with the door open. She knew I meant business and I did not raise my voice - just made it firmer. The spactic dog, I would never get my face close to it's face as it was a snapper. That didn't keep me from sitting on the floor for bonding and calming, I just never lowered my face like I can/do with this dog. Our spastic dog would snap if you tried to put water in it's bowl while eating - my current dog will back up and sit down if you want to pick up her food or water bowl during meal time.
So - there's nothing you are doing wrong or right. Same with the dog. Taking some time to just observe and bond might help! I do believe they pick up on our stress/anxiety so any self-care to calm you would probably benefit the dog too! (((Hugs)))
a4l said
Mar 27, 2019
. To have a child in the grip of this god awful disease is to my own empathetic imagining as a mother, a most terrible and difficult thing. All the analysis of emotional rights and wrongs, I never found them to soothe my mother heart when it came to my babies and issues of loss, though it did feed my frantic effort to find a way to not let my greatest fears happen. It is so very easy to say take one day at a time, and the hardest thing to do, yet I do beleive in hindsight had I known how to do that, the journey while still painful, may have allowed some much needed moments of respite. Too much empathy as a state of natural being? I don't know. I do know it's hard to control instinct and sometimes the best I could do was learn to live alongside it. Thinking of you and your girl and putting you both in my prayers.
RachelsMom said
Mar 27, 2019
Iamhere- I think I take the Grandma role with the dog. I give the treats and I play with her while Mom is mostly the one who disciplines. Daughter is definitely the Alpha Dog because when she gives a command (she uses "oy" don't know why) the dog listens. It stops, it returns, it follows...whatever she is asking it to do by saying, "oy", the dog understands.
I guess maybe it's more that I am the Grandma. The only thing is, this is a pit bull mix and when she plays, she jumps on me and jumps really high (to my face) and runs really fast and gets to the end of the retractable dog leash, she about pulls my arm out of socket! But it's' fun and funny and I like to see her enjoy snacks and running. You should see her get a running start and jump on me on the couch, ouch. I don't like the pain and I protect my face but it's nice to see her happy and letting out her energy. I think it's alittle cruel to confine her to a 900 sq ft space when she is so big and energetic.
Daughter is moving out this summer and they will be gone. They will live nearby but not here in my home and I'm really looking forward to it! I love them both but I never have alone time anymore.
RachelsMom said
Mar 27, 2019
a4l- thanks for your reply. It was very difficult for anyone to convince me here that my daughter's "savior" wasn't me and I actually have ZERO control over her or the disease. It is going to have to be her choice to decide her lifestyle. She has expressed that she wants to be a traveler this summer-live in the woods and collect mushrooms. *rolleyes* Is it really possible for a person to totally reject society in this manner? I doubt it. She wants good camping equipment- hey...elves don't make that stuff! People make it and people buy it and people give it to her. She thinks she can bury her personal possessions near her campsite and no one will mess with it or her. I'm saying all this to express that an addict is going to do exactly what an addict wants to do and that's that.
In cognitive behavioral theory, they teach that the way a person sees the world and deals with issues may or may not begin with "thinking errors". I have thinking errors in how to deal with this daughter and I'm in the process of changing that thanks to great support here. The things my daughter was saying to me this weekend were very disturbing to me. She has a storage locker in another state that she has to pay monthly and she says, "You don't wanna know me when I lose everything I have". I took this to mean that if she can't find the funding to protect her belongings, her reaction is going to be angry? Threatening? And I'm supposed to make sure this doesn't happen?? There's actually a danger aspect to being in a relationship with an addict. I want to back up slowly and keep myself safe. I don't KNOW if the danger is real but the codependency makes it more dangerous. I'm NOT RESPONSIBLE for her wants and needs or where her actions take her. Given that she physically attacked me once and I had to call the police and they took pictures of my injuries...it's more than likely a real danger. There's nothing about the direction she is taking that I approve of or like.
I love her and nothing will ever change that. She makes loving her very difficult tho. :/
JerryF said
Mar 27, 2019
Mom you have a real history with this daughter that needs to be taken realistically and seriously. It doesn't sound like she is holding you in mutual respect and is willing to threaten on it and act on it. When I was a behavioral health therapist I use to demonstrate to parents my own responses to such behavior and attitudes like you once did with the police. If she isn't in recovery nothing has changed and I would take that seriously.
I take it seriously with my eldest son who demonstrates those attitudes and behaviors with his own family which is sick and sad as the enablers make it worse. Our actions give them leeway and permission to harm even when we oppose it.
Train yourself now so that she can expect honest and real resistance to her unacceptable behavior. Tell her OY!!
With compassion and empathy. (((((hugs)))))
Iamhere said
Mar 27, 2019
Rachels mom - I laughed at grandma role! It's good that your daughter's got the training in progress. I don't allow my dog on my furniture - she has her own. She did go through obedience training before I got her, and she's the best behaved dog I've ever had....which tells me that my skills to train a dog are lacking in comparison.
The word 'boundaries' popped into my head with your most recent share...I've never had a pit bull, but have heard they are quite head strong. Hopefully for your sake, it's just a phase and you all will get through it!
a4l said
Mar 27, 2019
An addict will do what an addict wants to do and that's that. So very true. Well you sound like you have it all figured out. I don't know about excessive empathy as a predisposition. Most females in my own FOO have concluded that they are empaths. Me, I think we get out of balance from conditioning and habit. I used to be like that, then swung the other way to selfish and now I'm trying to find some kind of in between, not judging hardship as a direct result of incompetence for example. I have alcoholic loved ones who I used to feel extremely sorry for until it finally dawned on me that this compassion was a one way street. Sometimes the more I learn the less I know: I hope I didn't offend you with my reply. I was thinking of my own experiences of powerlessness. My somewhat new and self protecting perspective would not feel obliged to put up with the behaviours have detailed. I wish you both well, take care.
RachelsMom said
Mar 28, 2019
Jerry, so awesome that you didn't just read the last post but even the OY one! I loved your reply and, yes, I know I need to recognize the element of danger in all of this. One day a month or so ago, she got "flash angry" (she moves so quickly to anger that I don't even see it coming) and kicked a door in my house so hard that I can't scrub the boot imprint off of it. I'm going to have to paint over it when I have time to get paint. That's how fast her anger came on that one day when she pulled a handful of hair out by the root and other minor injuries. I was standing beside her when she flashed and I was the human door. And, as usual, it was MY fault she attacked me because she has PTSD and I was standing too close. Lordy.
Has anyone else on here encountered danger when interacting or living with an addict whom they love?
RachelsMom said
Mar 28, 2019
Oh no, a4l, you didn't offend me! It's hard to offend me, especially HERE where all insights are hugely appreciated! Honestly, the only reason I am getting wiser is from standing back a little from the situation and trying to see it how y'all do here. My situation is not unique from any other addict/enabler situation described here and I have achieved more from stories here that help me apply the steps. The steps alone just left me confused in the beginning. What does it look like to apply that step I used to wonder. But here are the shares that show me how! So thanks TONS to all of you, even the ones who thought I allowed step father molestation, lol. I WOULD NEVER BE MY MOTHER!!!! I have absolute contempt for a mother who stays in denial about such a thing JUST so she won't lose a man. PU-LEAZ!!! In my book, there is nothing weak about a Mother. ( I know I have weakness about my own situation and I just haven't learned but dang do I border on despising a mother who looks the other way to sexual abuse in the home). I should extend compassion in those cases but I just can't. I even had some insightful dreams about how I see my Mother. (long dress to the ankles indicating a confusion or lack of acceptance about her sexuality, fearful eyes indicating she was not capable of protecting a child, entering a house that looked complete on the outside but inside, was only framed out, EMPTY, the bones/structure of a family but empty inside. In the dream, I took Rachel's hand from her and we left the house. The family. The structure that offered nothing but emptiness and Rachel and I...hand in hand....dove into a body of water, the unknown, that was better than the familiar empty house.
Telling that dream makes me anxious. I'm no coward, I just have to learn.
Aloha said
Mar 28, 2019
This is in our sticky topic under "FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS" but I thought I'd post it here:
7. Q. How can I get help with living with physical violence?
A. In the book, How Al-Anon Works for Families and Friends of Alcoholics there is a section entitled A Special Word to Anyone Confronted with Violence (Preface ix) please consult this. We in Al-Anon do not give advice, but realize the importance of not accepting violence or dangerous situations, which may cause harm to our children or us. If you are in a situation like this please do not hesitate to call the police or having some kind of plan to protect yourself.
The following are some numbers that may help:
Battered Womens Justice Project: 1-800-903-0111. National Organization for Victims Assistance: 1-800-879-6682 National Resource Center for Domestic Violence: 1-800-537-2238 US Domestic Violence Hotline/ General Information: 1-800-799-7233
We all have the right to live a life free from physical violence and threats of violence. We do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. I've found that allowing that sort of behavior to continue only manages to enable the disease further.
Remember that we teach others how to treat us.
-- Edited by Aloha on Thursday 28th of March 2019 09:39:28 AM
Iamhere said
Mar 28, 2019
Rachels Mom - my oldest child threatened to kill me and the youngest child when active in the disease. It may or may not have been the disease talking, I did not care/consider that. I did contact the police the next day and since he was a juvenile, he was removed from the home, put into state custody and had to go to a MH Residential Treatment Center.
My youngest threw a can of aerosole cleaner 'my way' in a fit of anger, which missed and hit the wall. He also expressed his anger a few times towards my home and grabbed me once and twisted my arm to clear the way for him to depart from the house. I also called the police, and he ended up with a DV (Domestic Violence) charge on his record as he was an adult.
I have a 'hard stop' boundary on any abuse - verbal, physical, mental, physical. There is no doubt in the minds of my A(s) that I will contact necessary outside help/authorities when needed. I fully agree that we teach others how to treat us and we can change it up by changing ourselves. Take good care of you!
RachelsMom said
Apr 2, 2019
Hmm, ok, a couple thoughts. Iamhere...my local police dept didn't act the same way as yours. They took out a warrant after the physical attack but about a month later, they came by the house and asked me to sign a dismissal of the case. I know that certain cities/towns don't have enough money to prosecute every case that comes to them but still. It may have been because she didn't live with me and she ran away after I called the police. They looked for her but couldn't find her.
Anyway, moving on from that, I have a few questions. Given the input from you guys above, I have decided not to let daughter get away with talking so disrespectfully to me. I've also decided to take action against what crushes my soul and makes me feel so depressed. So when daughter got mad at me for dropping off her laundry when she wasn't "home" (the place a guy friend lives where she is staying), I told her no more. No more taxiing, no more laundry, no cigarette money, no money period. I've also stopping taking her monologue phone calls. If she texts and it's polite, I will answer. if it's not nice, I'm not engaging. Her guy friend is making her leave and I have no idea where she will go next but I know I'm sick of solving her problems and being talked to so horribly. I'm just really sick of solving her problems!! She is going about it all the wrong way but she won't listen!!! I am allowed zero input. Everyone is responsible for their own self and if they give that responsibility up to a friend or Mom or new acquaintance, there are going to be negative consequences. She was upset because I left her laundry in a bag on her front porch on the way to work and she said that anyone could steal them and take them to a consignment store. Where was she when I dropped them off? Selling something at a clothing consignment store that she stole!!!l
Is it ok to tell myself that I can stop doing things for her just because "I don't feel like it." Of course there are reasons I don't "feel like it" 1)not doing her any good by accepting responsibility 2)allowing her to abuse me in more than one way is not a good path 3)let her experience her own consequences even if she blames ME for them happening.
It feels like a huge weight has been lifted. My future doesn't feel as dark anymore. Am I doing it right?
Bo said
Apr 2, 2019
You are allowed zero input? Do you want input? On what? About what? Check your motives.
She is going about it all wrong but she won't listen? So, she is not doing it the way you want? She's not doing it the right way? Your way? Check your motives.
This is why we are in alanon.
Talk to your sponsor. Go to more meetings. This is the perfect example of where you should talk to your sponsor.
Focus on YOU...not her.
It's not about the laundry, where she was, the guy friend, what she's doing, cigarettes, money, etc. It's about something MUCH BIGGER and LARGER.
It's about YOU. Who you are being, who you want to be.
Get with your sponsor and start doing the work. Alanon works if you work it -- actually work it -- so work it, you are worth it.
If you do...you will get better.
Freetime said
Apr 2, 2019
I think you have a great plan. That feeling of weight off your shoulders is a clue. Hugs and good wishes as you continue this journey.
RachelsMom said
Apr 2, 2019
I wanted to quote and post but couldn't figure it out?
Bo- your post confused me.
Input-as in really basic stuff-apply for jobs for instance.
Check my motives? I don't know what that means in regards to Alanon.
Doing it "the right way" means do it how other people do it. Get a job and pay for your own place to stay, your cigarettes, etc. I meant this in the most basic of ways.
YES...it IS about taking care of me!
Bo said
Apr 2, 2019
Are you making demands, giving ultimatums, trying to control, forcing your will/wishes, and so on? Or, as we learn in alanon, are you establishing boundaries, which are designed to protect you, your well-being, serenity, peace, etc.?
One of the slogans in alanon is to -- check your motives -- openly, and honestly. What are you really doing? Do you want what you want, trying to control, force your will/wants, etc. It's not about why -- because every single one of us can justify what we are doing, we can say we are doing out of love, and a million other reasons. So it's not about why -- it's about what are you really doing?
The right way sounds like the way you think is right, the way you have seen other people do it, what you want, what you think can work. Alanon teaches us, it's up to them. Their decision. Not ours. We learn to let go of the control, the wanting to control, the desire, we let go of forcing our will/wants.
Start with step one...acceptance...acceptance that you are powerless...over alcohol, the alcoholic, and alcoholism. Step one.
The alcoholic will not stop drinking...unless and until they want to...not you...them.
Talk to your sponsor about what you are thinking, doing, etc.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
Iamhere said
Apr 2, 2019
RachelsMom - when the local police came by, it sounds as if they gave you a choice to sign the dismissal or not. I do realize that different areas have different laws and different funding, but in my experience, any personal crime can not be dismissed without consent.
I also agree that your plan sounds like a great start. I hear some detaching which is always good for our sanity. Healthy boundaries help too and that's where the program really helped me. Attending meetings, getting support from others who have BTDT (Been There Done That) helped me to accept I was powerless over my A - their words, actions, choices, present, past, future, etc. I called my sponsor constantly because I wanted to do different, be different and not get sucked into the chaos of the disease. In recovery, I have chosen to truly let go of being right and instead focus on being happy. I was able to find peace, joy, contentment, new tools, new friends, and much, much more by embracing my own recovery and leaving my sons in God's hands.
They do not live as I wish they would. They do not act as I wish they would. They do not respect me always, nor do they do a million other things I 'dreamed' of when they were small. Yet, they are growing, maturing, existing on their own path, doing their lives, without my nagging, reminders, questions, comments, suggestions, advice, etc. I literally had to bite my tongue for what seemed years when I first started recovery.
My boys are adult age. They were taught right from wrong. They had the best schooling and education. They did not ask for this disease but still got it. When they treat this disease, things are better. When they deny the disease, things are worse. In either of these cases, I no longer have to loose myself in their drama/chaos, as I have my own tools, support, recovery to keep me on my side of the street.
I no longer believe there is only one right way. I no longer believe my way is the only way. I accept that I have my ways and others have theirs. For me, whenever I am discontent, restless or irritable it's truly about me - not other people, places or things. I have gone beyond my boundary, given my power away or taken things personally which are about the other person instead of me.
The program does give us a blueprint for freeing ourselves from the handcuffs of this disease, whether our loved one is/is not in recovery. I do know that part-time effort in recovery yields partial results. Only when I really put myself first, listened with an open mind and realized how insane I had become did I start to heal/recover.
There is no perfect way to live life, love another, work recovery, etc. For me, I do know doing the same things over and over expecting different results never resulted in a long-term path to serenity - only instead filled a few pot-holes on my journey. In the beginning, others had to tell me it was OK to block my adult children from my phone. It was OK to keep my plans instead of dropping everything to take them for food, job interview, doctor appt., etc. When I changed, they were forced to make some changes or find other means.
My boys have never, ever gone without drugs/alcohol when wanted/needed. They are bright, smart, manipulative adults. Surely if they can score drugs, alcohol with no resources, they can also score rides, jobs, food, etc. Because of Al-Anon, I do know that if I died tomorrow, they would be OK as they have excellent coping/survival skills. This has been just one reward of working Al-Anon recovery, detaching with love and establishing healthy boundaries.
Recovery is about your healing, and finding real, genuine joy and peace for you. Take good care of yourself, try to just do one day at a time and embrace ALL that Al-Anon has to offer. I've never regretted it - not for a single minute!
RachelsMom said
Apr 3, 2019
I am here...the police came by the house about a month later and asked me to sign the dismissal. So I did. I think the reason they asked it of me was because she was out of state again and I was safe? I didn't ask.
I have to take a break from daughter's verbal abuse. You are right, Iamhere...daughter has great manipulation skills and survival skills. It isn't exactly safe for her but it's what she has done for quite awhile. It isn't exactly safe for the other person either!
Thanks for the input all!
Bo said
Apr 3, 2019
Remember...nothing changes if nothing changes.
That slogan...is about US...not the alcoholic, addict, or other person. It means WE can ONLY CHANGE OURSELVES...NOT the OTHER PERSON.
Keep coming back.
serenity47 said
Apr 4, 2019
Letting go of the illusion of any control over another adults life is what saved my own. Whether that adult is my child or not, did not change the fact that I am powerless over another's life. Very very difficult thing to accept.
I felt a misplace sense of responsibility for my daughter's life. However, she is not a child, she is a fully grown woman with all the rights and responsibilities every adult has.
Allowing her the dignity to experience her own consequences, was and is painful still at times. It is a natural instinct to try and protect ones child. However, time and time again I was shown that my continued interference/input/advice was not helping.
Took me a long while to get this and really throw myself into my own program.. I still screw up, "relapse" in my own behaviour many times. That is ok. Recovery is not a straight line for anyone, myself included.
Until I became willing to do the work required in my own life, nothing changed.
It was one of those "strange" (no really) conversations with Rachel that ended with her saying, "How about I never talk to you ever f****** again". And I hadn't done anything or said anything to warrant that reaction and then I think, "ahhh, there you go again trying to make sense of the actions of an addict." And I didn't reply to that text because HOW, and then my mind started to do that, "What do I DO? Will she stay this way? Get worse? Die?" And guess what. I have no control over the outcome of the dear daughter. None at all. And then I started to think that maybe MY addiction is that turmoil of gotta solve, keep her off the edge, save her! And if I take the approach that I only have to deal with NOW. Just now and that is all....get through the day in the best possible way and let it go.
I had to work tonight and I just got home. Work didn't go so great so I was dealing with that, too. Work is ok though. Everything is always ok but not with my daughter. It is the one thing that I really care about that I have no control over and I have no control over making her have control over her either, lol.
So I hope now that I posted this, I can sleep. I am supposed to take the dear one to renew her state ID tomorrow. I don't even want to see her, I never get an "I'm sorry". She doesn't ever seem to remember that she said something horrible anyway.
I took her to get new contacts last week because she was wearing JUST ONE for months when it is not supposed to stay in that long. Please help me to remember to take a bite of only one day at a time. THAT is manageable. Anything bigger is not. Breathe.
I love y'all. <3
-- Edited by Iamhere on Monday 25th of March 2019 06:41:08 AM
Its hard, watching a loved one not in recovery, doing themselves in over and over and you are hopin they hit bottom FAST so they will be forced into recovery, but even then, it MAY happen or it may NOT happen....My A brother and I are very close, I hold ZERO expectations of his ever getting into AA and arresting his drinking...however , he seems to be sorta interested in working the steps with me...Great!!! but I take care of me, hope for the best, but ZERO expectations of anything or anyone outside of myself....My HP helps me when i hellp myself, AND then turn it over/surrender it when i've done all I can.....
sending you LOADS of peace energy.....and yes, ODAT is key to serenity.....
Sending prayers for you all - hopefully the errand(s) today go smoothly and hoping you got good rest last night! Keep coming back - you are worth it!
Idontwannago, I dontwannago, I dontwannago! haha
I know it helps me to write things out. Sometimes I feel like it turns into a conversation with HP and while I write solutions come to me.
I love the reminders that we are powerless over others behaviors. There's nothing we can say or do that will change the outcome for the addict. HP is in charge, not us.
Keep taking good care of you and keep coming back.
Thanks Aloha. I'm learning in spite of myself! And I was right, she called this morning and started talking like we are the best of friends. I guess we are at the bottom of the roller coaster today....or maybe going back up? haha She cancelled our plans...wants to do it tomorrow instead. (By all means just go ahead and plan my life for me!*rolleyes*
Anyway, guess what you awesome teachers?? I slept fine.
I'm sorry for the hurt you're experiencing. It was helpful for me to hear from others in the program that "it's the disease talking" and not my loved one. Words can really sting sometimes and that statement helped to take the personalness out of it for me. Loving them until they love themselves was also helpful to hear but I also try to remember to love myself first and then give outward of myself. Resentments begin when I over extend myself or my motivation is to gain love or acceptance from others. It doesn't matter whether it's family or neighbor, the boundary has to be the same for me - self-care first. It sounds like hp stepped in and has given you a day's reprieve - a time to regroup, hold the serenity prayer a little closer so you can hold your dau a little closer, disease and all in whatever way feels right for the two of you. Prayers for the two of you for tolerance, gentleness with one another. (((hugs)) TT
Question, sortof, tell me if this is weird.
My youngest daughter has a dog that lives here with me. She (the dog) is awesome but I noticed that when the dog is agitated or wanting something or wont settle down, I start to feel the same way. I see the way my daughter handles the dog and it is so calmly different than how I handle it. I wonder if that has anything to do with enabling/codependency? I mean, even the dogs mood has a big effect on me, like, an empathy thing? I suppose that sounds weird but on a simple level, the way the dog's mood has an effect on me instead of ME being the leader of the dog's mood is telling me something about myself.
I'm not into self hate so that's not what I'm feeling here. From what I understand about training a dog...the owner's "feelings" can determine the dogs confidence/comfort level. I should be the one in charge, this dog is expecting it and I'm all in an agitated emotional state. I should not own a dog, lol.
Ok, so my question is...do some of us human beings actually have a stronger urge toward empathy than other human beings? Is this an innate thing for such a person? So if I have this strong empathy thing that is innate (and that trait is considered weakness by most people) I just need to learn to recognize it and control it?
Looking forward to responses from y'all and if you don't follow this line of thinking at all....I want to know that, too! Lol at me, I'm something else, huh?
Having said that, I believe the dog feeds off the human emotions vs. the reverse. If I am kind, sweet, loving, my dog is docile. If I am sad, crying, withdrawn, my dog is loving. If I am in a hurry, agitated or raising my voice - even just to announce dinner, she's hiding. The dog we had that was just plain spastic was probably in need of Al-A-Dog as it was growing up as the disease was dominating!
The best way I know to calm an excited dog is to sit on the floor, on their level, and talk calmly. If the dog is misbehaving or will not come, try a firm voice but not too loud. My awesome dog did not want to go outside today while I went to golf, and we had to have a come to jesus moment - I got low and looked her in the eyes and said, "Go" - with the door open. She knew I meant business and I did not raise my voice - just made it firmer. The spactic dog, I would never get my face close to it's face as it was a snapper. That didn't keep me from sitting on the floor for bonding and calming, I just never lowered my face like I can/do with this dog. Our spastic dog would snap if you tried to put water in it's bowl while eating - my current dog will back up and sit down if you want to pick up her food or water bowl during meal time.
So - there's nothing you are doing wrong or right. Same with the dog. Taking some time to just observe and bond might help! I do believe they pick up on our stress/anxiety so any self-care to calm you would probably benefit the dog too! (((Hugs)))
Iamhere- I think I take the Grandma role with the dog. I give the treats and I play with her while Mom is mostly the one who disciplines. Daughter is definitely the Alpha Dog because when she gives a command (she uses "oy" don't know why) the dog listens. It stops, it returns, it follows...whatever she is asking it to do by saying, "oy", the dog understands.
I guess maybe it's more that I am the Grandma. The only thing is, this is a pit bull mix and when she plays, she jumps on me and jumps really high (to my face) and runs really fast and gets to the end of the retractable dog leash, she about pulls my arm out of socket! But it's' fun and funny and I like to see her enjoy snacks and running. You should see her get a running start and jump on me on the couch, ouch. I don't like the pain and I protect my face but it's nice to see her happy and letting out her energy. I think it's alittle cruel to confine her to a 900 sq ft space when she is so big and energetic.
Daughter is moving out this summer and they will be gone. They will live nearby but not here in my home and I'm really looking forward to it! I love them both but I never have alone time anymore.
In cognitive behavioral theory, they teach that the way a person sees the world and deals with issues may or may not begin with "thinking errors". I have thinking errors in how to deal with this daughter and I'm in the process of changing that thanks to great support here. The things my daughter was saying to me this weekend were very disturbing to me. She has a storage locker in another state that she has to pay monthly and she says, "You don't wanna know me when I lose everything I have". I took this to mean that if she can't find the funding to protect her belongings, her reaction is going to be angry? Threatening? And I'm supposed to make sure this doesn't happen?? There's actually a danger aspect to being in a relationship with an addict. I want to back up slowly and keep myself safe. I don't KNOW if the danger is real but the codependency makes it more dangerous. I'm NOT RESPONSIBLE for her wants and needs or where her actions take her. Given that she physically attacked me once and I had to call the police and they took pictures of my injuries...it's more than likely a real danger. There's nothing about the direction she is taking that I approve of or like.
I love her and nothing will ever change that. She makes loving her very difficult tho. :/
Mom you have a real history with this daughter that needs to be taken realistically and seriously. It doesn't sound like she is holding you in mutual respect and is willing to threaten on it and act on it. When I was a behavioral health therapist I use to demonstrate to parents my own responses to such behavior and attitudes like you once did with the police. If she isn't in recovery nothing has changed and I would take that seriously.
I take it seriously with my eldest son who demonstrates those attitudes and behaviors with his own family which is sick and sad as the enablers make it worse. Our actions give them leeway and permission to harm even when we oppose it.
Train yourself now so that she can expect honest and real resistance to her unacceptable behavior. Tell her OY!!
With compassion and empathy. (((((hugs)))))
The word 'boundaries' popped into my head with your most recent share...I've never had a pit bull, but have heard they are quite head strong. Hopefully for your sake, it's just a phase and you all will get through it!
Jerry, so awesome that you didn't just read the last post but even the OY one!
I loved your reply and, yes, I know I need to recognize the element of danger in all of this. One day a month or so ago, she got "flash angry" (she moves so quickly to anger that I don't even see it coming) and kicked a door in my house so hard that I can't scrub the boot imprint off of it. I'm going to have to paint over it when I have time to get paint. That's how fast her anger came on that one day when she pulled a handful of hair out by the root and other minor injuries. I was standing beside her when she flashed and I was the human door. And, as usual, it was MY fault she attacked me because she has PTSD and I was standing too close. Lordy.
Has anyone else on here encountered danger when interacting or living with an addict whom they love?
Oh no, a4l, you didn't offend me! It's hard to offend me, especially HERE where all insights are hugely appreciated! Honestly, the only reason I am getting wiser is from standing back a little from the situation and trying to see it how y'all do here. My situation is not unique from any other addict/enabler situation described here and I have achieved more from stories here that help me apply the steps. The steps alone just left me confused in the beginning. What does it look like to apply that step I used to wonder. But here are the shares that show me how! So thanks TONS to all of you, even the ones who thought I allowed step father molestation, lol. I WOULD NEVER BE MY MOTHER!!!! I have absolute contempt for a mother who stays in denial about such a thing JUST so she won't lose a man. PU-LEAZ!!! In my book, there is nothing weak about a Mother. ( I know I have weakness about my own situation and I just haven't learned but dang do I border on despising a mother who looks the other way to sexual abuse in the home). I should extend compassion in those cases but I just can't. I even had some insightful dreams about how I see my Mother. (long dress to the ankles indicating a confusion or lack of acceptance about her sexuality, fearful eyes indicating she was not capable of protecting a child, entering a house that looked complete on the outside but inside, was only framed out, EMPTY, the bones/structure of a family but empty inside. In the dream, I took Rachel's hand from her and we left the house. The family. The structure that offered nothing but emptiness and Rachel and I...hand in hand....dove into a body of water, the unknown, that was better than the familiar empty house.
Telling that dream makes me anxious. I'm no coward, I just have to learn.
This is in our sticky topic under "FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS" but I thought I'd post it here:
7. Q. How can I get help with living with physical violence?
A. In the book, How Al-Anon Works for Families and Friends of Alcoholics there is a section entitled A Special Word to Anyone Confronted with Violence (Preface ix) please consult this. We in Al-Anon do not give advice, but realize the importance of not accepting violence or dangerous situations, which may cause harm to our children or us. If you are in a situation like this please do not hesitate to call the police or having some kind of plan to protect yourself.
The following are some numbers that may help:
Battered Womens Justice Project: 1-800-903-0111.
National Organization for Victims Assistance: 1-800-879-6682
National Resource Center for Domestic Violence: 1-800-537-2238
US Domestic Violence Hotline/ General Information: 1-800-799-7233
We all have the right to live a life free from physical violence and threats of violence. We do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. I've found that allowing that sort of behavior to continue only manages to enable the disease further.
Remember that we teach others how to treat us.
-- Edited by Aloha on Thursday 28th of March 2019 09:39:28 AM
My youngest threw a can of aerosole cleaner 'my way' in a fit of anger, which missed and hit the wall. He also expressed his anger a few times towards my home and grabbed me once and twisted my arm to clear the way for him to depart from the house. I also called the police, and he ended up with a DV (Domestic Violence) charge on his record as he was an adult.
I have a 'hard stop' boundary on any abuse - verbal, physical, mental, physical. There is no doubt in the minds of my A(s) that I will contact necessary outside help/authorities when needed. I fully agree that we teach others how to treat us and we can change it up by changing ourselves. Take good care of you!
Anyway, moving on from that, I have a few questions. Given the input from you guys above, I have decided not to let daughter get away with talking so disrespectfully to me. I've also decided to take action against what crushes my soul and makes me feel so depressed. So when daughter got mad at me for dropping off her laundry when she wasn't "home" (the place a guy friend lives where she is staying), I told her no more. No more taxiing, no more laundry, no cigarette money, no money period. I've also stopping taking her monologue phone calls. If she texts and it's polite, I will answer. if it's not nice, I'm not engaging. Her guy friend is making her leave and I have no idea where she will go next but I know I'm sick of solving her problems and being talked to so horribly. I'm just really sick of solving her problems!! She is going about it all the wrong way but she won't listen!!! I am allowed zero input. Everyone is responsible for their own self and if they give that responsibility up to a friend or Mom or new acquaintance, there are going to be negative consequences. She was upset because I left her laundry in a bag on her front porch on the way to work and she said that anyone could steal them and take them to a consignment store. Where was she when I dropped them off? Selling something at a clothing consignment store that she stole!!!l
Is it ok to tell myself that I can stop doing things for her just because "I don't feel like it." Of course there are reasons I don't "feel like it" 1)not doing her any good by accepting responsibility 2)allowing her to abuse me in more than one way is not a good path 3)let her experience her own consequences even if she blames ME for them happening.
It feels like a huge weight has been lifted. My future doesn't feel as dark anymore. Am I doing it right?
She is going about it all wrong but she won't listen? So, she is not doing it the way you want? She's not doing it the right way? Your way? Check your motives.
This is why we are in alanon.
Talk to your sponsor. Go to more meetings. This is the perfect example of where you should talk to your sponsor.
Focus on YOU...not her.
It's not about the laundry, where she was, the guy friend, what she's doing, cigarettes, money, etc. It's about something MUCH BIGGER and LARGER.
It's about YOU. Who you are being, who you want to be.
Get with your sponsor and start doing the work. Alanon works if you work it -- actually work it -- so work it, you are worth it.
If you do...you will get better.
I wanted to quote and post but couldn't figure it out?
Bo- your post confused me.
Input-as in really basic stuff-apply for jobs for instance.
Check my motives? I don't know what that means in regards to Alanon.
Doing it "the right way" means do it how other people do it. Get a job and pay for your own place to stay, your cigarettes, etc. I meant this in the most basic of ways.
YES...it IS about taking care of me!
One of the slogans in alanon is to -- check your motives -- openly, and honestly. What are you really doing? Do you want what you want, trying to control, force your will/wants, etc. It's not about why -- because every single one of us can justify what we are doing, we can say we are doing out of love, and a million other reasons. So it's not about why -- it's about what are you really doing?
The right way sounds like the way you think is right, the way you have seen other people do it, what you want, what you think can work. Alanon teaches us, it's up to them. Their decision. Not ours. We learn to let go of the control, the wanting to control, the desire, we let go of forcing our will/wants.
Start with step one...acceptance...acceptance that you are powerless...over alcohol, the alcoholic, and alcoholism. Step one.
The alcoholic will not stop drinking...unless and until they want to...not you...them.
Talk to your sponsor about what you are thinking, doing, etc.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
I also agree that your plan sounds like a great start. I hear some detaching which is always good for our sanity. Healthy boundaries help too and that's where the program really helped me. Attending meetings, getting support from others who have BTDT (Been There Done That) helped me to accept I was powerless over my A - their words, actions, choices, present, past, future, etc. I called my sponsor constantly because I wanted to do different, be different and not get sucked into the chaos of the disease. In recovery, I have chosen to truly let go of being right and instead focus on being happy. I was able to find peace, joy, contentment, new tools, new friends, and much, much more by embracing my own recovery and leaving my sons in God's hands.
They do not live as I wish they would. They do not act as I wish they would. They do not respect me always, nor do they do a million other things I 'dreamed' of when they were small. Yet, they are growing, maturing, existing on their own path, doing their lives, without my nagging, reminders, questions, comments, suggestions, advice, etc. I literally had to bite my tongue for what seemed years when I first started recovery.
My boys are adult age. They were taught right from wrong. They had the best schooling and education. They did not ask for this disease but still got it. When they treat this disease, things are better. When they deny the disease, things are worse. In either of these cases, I no longer have to loose myself in their drama/chaos, as I have my own tools, support, recovery to keep me on my side of the street.
I no longer believe there is only one right way. I no longer believe my way is the only way. I accept that I have my ways and others have theirs. For me, whenever I am discontent, restless or irritable it's truly about me - not other people, places or things. I have gone beyond my boundary, given my power away or taken things personally which are about the other person instead of me.
The program does give us a blueprint for freeing ourselves from the handcuffs of this disease, whether our loved one is/is not in recovery. I do know that part-time effort in recovery yields partial results. Only when I really put myself first, listened with an open mind and realized how insane I had become did I start to heal/recover.
There is no perfect way to live life, love another, work recovery, etc. For me, I do know doing the same things over and over expecting different results never resulted in a long-term path to serenity - only instead filled a few pot-holes on my journey. In the beginning, others had to tell me it was OK to block my adult children from my phone. It was OK to keep my plans instead of dropping everything to take them for food, job interview, doctor appt., etc. When I changed, they were forced to make some changes or find other means.
My boys have never, ever gone without drugs/alcohol when wanted/needed. They are bright, smart, manipulative adults. Surely if they can score drugs, alcohol with no resources, they can also score rides, jobs, food, etc. Because of Al-Anon, I do know that if I died tomorrow, they would be OK as they have excellent coping/survival skills. This has been just one reward of working Al-Anon recovery, detaching with love and establishing healthy boundaries.
Recovery is about your healing, and finding real, genuine joy and peace for you. Take good care of yourself, try to just do one day at a time and embrace ALL that Al-Anon has to offer. I've never regretted it - not for a single minute!
I have to take a break from daughter's verbal abuse. You are right, Iamhere...daughter has great manipulation skills and survival skills. It isn't exactly safe for her but it's what she has done for quite awhile. It isn't exactly safe for the other person either!
Thanks for the input all!
That slogan...is about US...not the alcoholic, addict, or other person. It means WE can ONLY CHANGE OURSELVES...NOT the OTHER PERSON.
Keep coming back.
I felt a misplace sense of responsibility for my daughter's life. However, she is not a child, she is a fully grown woman with all the rights and responsibilities every adult has.
Allowing her the dignity to experience her own consequences, was and is painful still at times. It is a natural instinct to try and protect ones child. However, time and time again I was shown that my continued interference/input/advice was not helping.
Took me a long while to get this and really throw myself into my own program.. I still screw up, "relapse" in my own behaviour many times. That is ok. Recovery is not a straight line for anyone, myself included.
Until I became willing to do the work required in my own life, nothing changed.