Im struggling with maintaining my boundaries tonight. AH is drinking and as is my usual response these days, I chose to walk away and do my own thing. I was in bed watching tv when he came in and wanted to cuddle. I just couldnt do it. I didnt want to be close to him in that moment. So I started to get up to leave, which of course led to him trying to give me a guilt trip. There was nothing I could do or say that would have made a difference so I hesitated just long enough for him to get the words out, then I simply responded Ok and walked out. He followed up with 2 texts still attempting to make me feel guilty. And Ill be damned if it didnt work a little bit. Im now here in the living room with a huge nervous, guilt-ridden ball of anxiety sitting in my stomach, wondering if I should have just stayed and given him a few minutes of affection. I cant deny that overall, hes a good man who asks very little of me. And when I think about it in those terms, I feel awful about myself, like Im being completely selfish and ungrateful for the many blessings I have in my life. Yet, I know that despite all of that, I also deserve peace and being near him when hes drinking takes that away from me. I guess Im still trying to figure out how to reconcile those two things - how can I both love and appreciate the man who obviously loves me and provides for me with no questions asked, who trusts me implicitly, and wants nothing in the world from me but my love and yet be comfortable with my need to be away from him so often,
El said
Feb 27, 2019
(((Twinkies))) Your post really struck a chord with me because I can so relate to everything you wrote. I also feel basically repulsed by my AHs attempts at even the simplest of affections when hes been drinking. Like you, I also recognize that he wants to love and be loved. He unselfishly provides and tries to keep me happy the best he can within his disease. I TOTALLY understand!
I find for myself I can show affection and express feelings for him when he is most sober.....earlier in the day. I have no patience for slurry, blurry attempts at conversation or otherwise once hes well past it meaning anything anyway. I have decided I need to honor my feelings on that. Once the guilt trips start, I simply say that we can talk about it in the morning when were less tired and more clear. He might still grumble, but hes not in his right mind and I need to do what is best for me in that moment.
His guilt trip might have gotten to you, but you held to your boundary. This is such a tough road....the good news is we are learning how to live life on lifes terms one day at a time.
Sending you my best,
Ellen
Iamhere said
Feb 27, 2019
So sorry twinkies that you're having conflicted emotions - I do understand. For me, I really needed a sponsor to help me find the best words that would be effective but not demeaning, blaming, etc. She really helped me determine what it is/was about me that felt the need to escape with active drinking, and how to spell out the boundary saying what I meant, meaning what I say without saying it mean. It.was.not.easy!
I too love my A and wanted to save my marriage. This adds more complexity as we really do care how our words are received. I often felt it would be much easier if one of my feet was headed out the door but that's not what I felt compelled to do. I also believe I have it a bit easier as a recovering A - it's easier for me to say I have no interest in being around alcohol - consumed or otherwise.
There really are no easy answers and you are right - you do deserve peace. What 'peace' looks like may vary from day to day and year to year - my boundaries have not remained constant or carved in stone. I do know that anytime I am uncomfortable, that's not a bad thing - it just means I am ready to grow and learn more. Keep taking good care of you and know you aren't alone!
Bo said
Feb 27, 2019
Twinkies wrote:
Im struggling with maintaining my boundaries tonight. AH is drinking and as is my usual response these days, I chose to walk away and do my own thing. I was in bed watching tv when he came in and wanted to cuddle. I just couldnt do it. I didnt want to be close to him in that moment. So I started to get up to leave, which of course led to him trying to give me a guilt trip. There was nothing I could do or say that would have made a difference so I hesitated just long enough for him to get the words out, then I simply responded Ok and walked out. He followed up with 2 texts still attempting to make me feel guilty. And Ill be damned if it didnt work a little bit. Im now here in the living room with a huge nervous, guilt-ridden ball of anxiety sitting in my stomach, wondering if I should have just stayed and given him a few minutes of affection. I cant deny that overall, hes a good man who asks very little of me. And when I think about it in those terms, I feel awful about myself, like Im being completely selfish and ungrateful for the many blessings I have in my life. Yet, I know that despite all of that, I also deserve peace and being near him when hes drinking takes that away from me. I guess Im still trying to figure out how to reconcile those two things - how can I both love and appreciate the man who obviously loves me and provides for me with no questions asked, who trusts me implicitly, and wants nothing in the world from me but my love and yet be comfortable with my need to be away from him so often,
I hear you, so loud and clear, it's screaming at me! This is something I struggled with for years. That said, for me, it was about something bigger. While I felt that my wife was a good homemaker, took care of the house, our life, etc., and I know that she loved me, without question. She also never really asked anything of me -- aside from wanting me to accept her drinking, and that's also part of a much larger issue and discussion -- However, that wasn't something that I could view as "enough" or "satisfactory" for me to unconditionally "be affectionate" or "intimate" with her, simply when and how she wanted...especially when she was drinking. Most of all, YES, this violated my boundary. Now, I did have to view it as a VIOLATION, because it was. Why? Not because I made a rule, or made a decision to simply not be affectionate, or intimate, with her when she was drinking. I certainly wasn't punishing her. I wasn't trying to make a statement or teach her a lesson. I wasn't being rude, nor was me not being intimate or affectionate punitive in nature.
There were reasons -- many reasons -- why I made that boundary!!! Let us not forget that. If you established this boundary properly, for the right reasons, with the right motives -- and I use the word "right" in a very specific context -- then, I see nothing wrong with standing by and honoring your boundary. I see no reason why you should feel guilty. This however is what alcoholics do -- they use guilt, manipulation, gas-lighting, blame, anger, love, affection, passive aggression, and more...to deflect, to be in their denial, to get what they want, and to get us to do what they want. Period. I found that violating my boundary -- being affectionate, being intimate -- in these types of situations, and this may seem or sound extreme, but, it wasn't "healthy" for me. It had consequences for me. There was a cost attached to it. I would be doing something that I didn't believe in, that wasn't sincere, or genuine, and by just going through the motions...because maybe she "deserved" it, or because it wasn't that big of a deal, and it's just a little something she wanted...that often made me feel worse! It made me feel like I wasn't being healthy, and yes, to some extent...I was ENABLING!!! That may be a discussion for another time, however, my boundary was there for me! To protect me! To protect me and to make sure that I could be and stay healthy. My emotional well-being, my own peace and serenity was in question.
Sure, anyone can say, it's no big deal. Why don't I just do it. I can get through it. I can sacrifice. Anyone can justify and rationalize it. Perhaps anyone can justify and rationalize anything. Isn't that part of our disease, isn't that the slippery slope, and so on and so on. For me, violating, not honoring my boundary, is a slip. It can be similar to the alcoholic having a slip. We can debate all day and all night long whether or not it's the same thing, and we can also debate that it's "no big deal" so to speak. Even if there was no consequences...that does not have to mean it is OK for us to fall victim to guilt, manipulation, or anything of the like. Even if there was no consequences...that does not mean I have to not honor my own boundary.
As far as reconciling the two...well, I view that as simple. I can love the person and hate the disease. For me, it's about ACCEPTANCE. I can detach from the person, because they are drinking. I can detach physically, and I can detach emotionally. My boundary is that I would not be affectionate or intimate with my wife when she was drinking. I had my reasons, and every single one of them was FOR MY HEALTH AND WELL-BEING. That being said, if I violated my boundary and did it, even if ended up OK, and I ended up feeling OK...it is still not a reason for me to simply violate my boundary. That is the tail wagging the dog. Justification, rationalization, vacillating, all of it...those are not my tools that I use for me to be healthy. I have to NOT do those things for me to be healthy.
Now, I will say, I just didn't listen to her and walk away. I didn't give her the courtesy of letting her make her case and speak, and then I just walked away. I would say something. I wouldn't look to argue, get into a back and forth, and I certainly would NOT have an in-depth conversation or discussion with her...because she was drinking!!! However, I would politely, and in a kind way, reiterate my boundary, in the context of a reminding her what I was doing, and a brief, simple, close-ended why I was doing it...and I would always add to it..."and while I don't want to get into this with you right now, I will certainly talk with you about this at a later time" or something along those lines. And I meant it. I would -- say what I mean, mean what I say, and I wouldn't say it mean!!! Even though she was drinking, I took the high road! I did the next right thing in front of me, for me. Sure, she would use guilt, manipulation, and everything else she could, to either make me feel bad, guilty, etc., or to get me to do what she wanted (be affectionate, intimate, etc.). But, if the alcoholic is upset with you...because you are honoring your boundary...then you are doing something right! Even if violating your boundary would be no big deal...standing by it and honoring it is you doing what is best and healthy for you. That, has nothing to do with the alcoholic.
All the best.
Twinkies said
Feb 28, 2019
Thank you everyone. Everything written resonated with me. I know my boundaries are reasonable. But when he tries to throw a guilt trip, I feel myself wavering and questioning them. I know that they really have nothing to do with him though - they are not intended to be punitive in nature (although Im sure he feels they are). I do not enforce them because Im angry or hurt. In fact, its quite the opposite. I enforce them precisely because I do not WANT to become angry or hurt. I do not WANT to sit and fume and let negative emotions take control. And so I need to create space, a buffer, that insulates me from my triggers. My boundaries are simply for my own emotional well-being. I know that in my heart but knowing that and trusting that are different things I guess. I think trusting my boundaries is going to take a bit more time.
While I couldnt speak to him in the moment last night, I did respond to his texts once I was sure he was asleep. I didnt want to just ignore it but I thought it better for him to see it this morning, when he was sober and more clear minded. Im learning where the weaknesses are in my boundaries and I knew engaging him in any way in that particular moment would have opened the flood gates and ALL of my boundaries would have washed away. It isnt always that way - every circumstance is different and nuanced and my response to the situation is influenced by those nuances. Last night just wasnt a good time to reiterate why I was disengaging. In my response I simply stated that I loved him dearly, and that, as he knows, there are times I struggle with his drinking more than others and that when Im struggling I choose to remove myself from the situation. I stated again, as I have often, that it wasnt about being angry or trying to punish him, but rather it was a way for me to actually AVOID feeling those negative emotions. I tried to say what I meant without being mean and I hope it came across that way to him.
El said
Feb 28, 2019
I think you handled it so well, Twinkies. You took care of you and reinforced your love be for him. Every instance is indeed different, and I learned so much from you and the other responses to your share. Thank you for posting and reaching out.
Ellen
2HP said
Feb 28, 2019
I love how you KNOW the boundary is for YOU... needing to protect yourself. You either have the CHOICE to go back into denial and delusion... continue wearing the "I'm fine" mask.... minimize everything going on...
or stand in the truth of your real feelings, "This whole scenario is really not okay with me"
That's what I got out of your post, your boundary is about getting HONEST like, please don't pull me back into delusion!
It did help me to remember that while I was changing with the help of al-anon, he was not changing, he was still in denial. When I took al-anon's suggestion of learning about the disease, I came to understand that the disease requires enablers. And when they aren't around anymore....
GUILT is a manipulative method to keep it going, to make what he's doing not a problem. My husband made me a "killjoy," an unloving partner, an unforgiving person, and worse... I've been called every name in the book.
I love your sense that it's not HIM who is unlovable but merely the disease talking and acting out, he's temporarily cloaked in the darkness of a mood and mind-altering drug while his is real self remains absolute love and absolutely lovable. With time, I did learn to separate the disease from the person.
For me, I could only "maintain" recovery by using meditation... because for ME, if I'm gonna live a life of letting go, letting go, letting go.... I will need to hold on to "something" as a really good substitute and with meditation, I am holding on to the very BEST there is.
You are doing really great, I am so inspired.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 28th of February 2019 01:20:54 PM
Bo said
Feb 28, 2019
Also remember...NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES.
At a certain point, it is not about boundaries...it's about how you want to live, the life you want to live.
Here though, in this case, our program teaches us that we can let go, we can do what's best for us, for our health, for our well-being, and we don't have to be in the sickness -- the sickness of alcoholism and, or, our sickness -- and we use the tools, the slogans and all of the alanon program to not be in the sickness.
Twinkles -- I think you did a great job. Talk to your sponsor, and focus on letting go, detaching, from the guilt, manipulation, and BS. And stand by your boundary.
All the best.
JerryF said
Feb 28, 2019
Great post Twinkies with great responses and it all caused me to go back into memories of what it was like, what happened and what it is like now. For me basically when she drank and used she became a person I would not associate or hang with...period. She became different and I didn't like the difference. She thought she was the same and nothing changed and then she also knew that drinking and using altered her personality and behaviors and I was telling her that was enough for me to say "No". Ask him to respect your "No" choice and to do some searching about how alcohol and drugs change people...get him some homework...reading, schooling, meetings, etc. (((hugs)))
(((Twinkies))) Your post really struck a chord with me because I can so relate to everything you wrote. I also feel basically repulsed by my AHs attempts at even the simplest of affections when hes been drinking. Like you, I also recognize that he wants to love and be loved. He unselfishly provides and tries to keep me happy the best he can within his disease. I TOTALLY understand!
I find for myself I can show affection and express feelings for him when he is most sober.....earlier in the day. I have no patience for slurry, blurry attempts at conversation or otherwise once hes well past it meaning anything anyway. I have decided I need to honor my feelings on that. Once the guilt trips start, I simply say that we can talk about it in the morning when were less tired and more clear. He might still grumble, but hes not in his right mind and I need to do what is best for me in that moment.
His guilt trip might have gotten to you, but you held to your boundary. This is such a tough road....the good news is we are learning how to live life on lifes terms one day at a time.
Sending you my best,
Ellen
I too love my A and wanted to save my marriage. This adds more complexity as we really do care how our words are received. I often felt it would be much easier if one of my feet was headed out the door but that's not what I felt compelled to do. I also believe I have it a bit easier as a recovering A - it's easier for me to say I have no interest in being around alcohol - consumed or otherwise.
There really are no easy answers and you are right - you do deserve peace. What 'peace' looks like may vary from day to day and year to year - my boundaries have not remained constant or carved in stone. I do know that anytime I am uncomfortable, that's not a bad thing - it just means I am ready to grow and learn more. Keep taking good care of you and know you aren't alone!
I hear you, so loud and clear, it's screaming at me! This is something I struggled with for years. That said, for me, it was about something bigger. While I felt that my wife was a good homemaker, took care of the house, our life, etc., and I know that she loved me, without question. She also never really asked anything of me -- aside from wanting me to accept her drinking, and that's also part of a much larger issue and discussion -- However, that wasn't something that I could view as "enough" or "satisfactory" for me to unconditionally "be affectionate" or "intimate" with her, simply when and how she wanted...especially when she was drinking. Most of all, YES, this violated my boundary. Now, I did have to view it as a VIOLATION, because it was. Why? Not because I made a rule, or made a decision to simply not be affectionate, or intimate, with her when she was drinking. I certainly wasn't punishing her. I wasn't trying to make a statement or teach her a lesson. I wasn't being rude, nor was me not being intimate or affectionate punitive in nature.
There were reasons -- many reasons -- why I made that boundary!!! Let us not forget that. If you established this boundary properly, for the right reasons, with the right motives -- and I use the word "right" in a very specific context -- then, I see nothing wrong with standing by and honoring your boundary. I see no reason why you should feel guilty. This however is what alcoholics do -- they use guilt, manipulation, gas-lighting, blame, anger, love, affection, passive aggression, and more...to deflect, to be in their denial, to get what they want, and to get us to do what they want. Period. I found that violating my boundary -- being affectionate, being intimate -- in these types of situations, and this may seem or sound extreme, but, it wasn't "healthy" for me. It had consequences for me. There was a cost attached to it. I would be doing something that I didn't believe in, that wasn't sincere, or genuine, and by just going through the motions...because maybe she "deserved" it, or because it wasn't that big of a deal, and it's just a little something she wanted...that often made me feel worse! It made me feel like I wasn't being healthy, and yes, to some extent...I was ENABLING!!! That may be a discussion for another time, however, my boundary was there for me! To protect me! To protect me and to make sure that I could be and stay healthy. My emotional well-being, my own peace and serenity was in question.
Sure, anyone can say, it's no big deal. Why don't I just do it. I can get through it. I can sacrifice. Anyone can justify and rationalize it. Perhaps anyone can justify and rationalize anything. Isn't that part of our disease, isn't that the slippery slope, and so on and so on. For me, violating, not honoring my boundary, is a slip. It can be similar to the alcoholic having a slip. We can debate all day and all night long whether or not it's the same thing, and we can also debate that it's "no big deal" so to speak. Even if there was no consequences...that does not have to mean it is OK for us to fall victim to guilt, manipulation, or anything of the like. Even if there was no consequences...that does not mean I have to not honor my own boundary.
As far as reconciling the two...well, I view that as simple. I can love the person and hate the disease. For me, it's about ACCEPTANCE. I can detach from the person, because they are drinking. I can detach physically, and I can detach emotionally. My boundary is that I would not be affectionate or intimate with my wife when she was drinking. I had my reasons, and every single one of them was FOR MY HEALTH AND WELL-BEING. That being said, if I violated my boundary and did it, even if ended up OK, and I ended up feeling OK...it is still not a reason for me to simply violate my boundary. That is the tail wagging the dog. Justification, rationalization, vacillating, all of it...those are not my tools that I use for me to be healthy. I have to NOT do those things for me to be healthy.
Now, I will say, I just didn't listen to her and walk away. I didn't give her the courtesy of letting her make her case and speak, and then I just walked away. I would say something. I wouldn't look to argue, get into a back and forth, and I certainly would NOT have an in-depth conversation or discussion with her...because she was drinking!!! However, I would politely, and in a kind way, reiterate my boundary, in the context of a reminding her what I was doing, and a brief, simple, close-ended why I was doing it...and I would always add to it..."and while I don't want to get into this with you right now, I will certainly talk with you about this at a later time" or something along those lines. And I meant it. I would -- say what I mean, mean what I say, and I wouldn't say it mean!!! Even though she was drinking, I took the high road! I did the next right thing in front of me, for me. Sure, she would use guilt, manipulation, and everything else she could, to either make me feel bad, guilty, etc., or to get me to do what she wanted (be affectionate, intimate, etc.). But, if the alcoholic is upset with you...because you are honoring your boundary...then you are doing something right! Even if violating your boundary would be no big deal...standing by it and honoring it is you doing what is best and healthy for you. That, has nothing to do with the alcoholic.
All the best.
I think you handled it so well, Twinkies. You took care of you and reinforced your love be for him. Every instance is indeed different, and I learned so much from you and the other responses to your share. Thank you for posting and reaching out.
Ellen
I love how you KNOW the boundary is for YOU... needing to protect yourself. You either have the CHOICE to go back into denial and delusion... continue wearing the "I'm fine" mask.... minimize everything going on...
or stand in the truth of your real feelings, "This whole scenario is really not okay with me"
That's what I got out of your post, your boundary is about getting HONEST like, please don't pull me back into delusion!
It did help me to remember that while I was changing with the help of al-anon, he was not changing, he was still in denial. When I took al-anon's suggestion of learning about the disease, I came to understand that the disease requires enablers. And when they aren't around anymore....
GUILT is a manipulative method to keep it going, to make what he's doing not a problem. My husband made me a "killjoy," an unloving partner, an unforgiving person, and worse... I've been called every name in the book.
I love your sense that it's not HIM who is unlovable but merely the disease talking and acting out, he's temporarily cloaked in the darkness of a mood and mind-altering drug while his is real self remains absolute love and absolutely lovable. With time, I did learn to separate the disease from the person.
For me, I could only "maintain" recovery by using meditation... because for ME, if I'm gonna live a life of letting go, letting go, letting go.... I will need to hold on to "something" as a really good substitute and with meditation, I am holding on to the very BEST there is.
You are doing really great, I am so inspired.
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 28th of February 2019 01:20:54 PM
At a certain point, it is not about boundaries...it's about how you want to live, the life you want to live.
Here though, in this case, our program teaches us that we can let go, we can do what's best for us, for our health, for our well-being, and we don't have to be in the sickness -- the sickness of alcoholism and, or, our sickness -- and we use the tools, the slogans and all of the alanon program to not be in the sickness.
Twinkles -- I think you did a great job. Talk to your sponsor, and focus on letting go, detaching, from the guilt, manipulation, and BS. And stand by your boundary.
All the best.
Great post Twinkies with great responses and it all caused me to go back into memories of what it was like, what happened and what it is like now. For me basically when she drank and used she became a person I would not associate or hang with...period. She became different and I didn't like the difference. She thought she was the same and nothing changed and then she also knew that drinking and using altered her personality and behaviors and I was telling her that was enough for me to say "No". Ask him to respect your "No" choice and to do some searching about how alcohol and drugs change people...get him some homework...reading, schooling, meetings, etc. (((hugs)))