So if my son is suffering from the disease of alcoholism and hes still on the merrygoround where he think he just needs enough will power or self control. That his own power can help him and that he just needs to be strong enough. What do you say when you know that he needs to surrender all his own efforts and ask for help? I have no words anymore for my alcoholic son. His disease has progressed to where there is trouble almost every week. Either with or without the law. His behaviour is highly irrational aggressive and unacceptable on a more regular basis. He's got himself an enabler of top quality. A martyr/victim addicted to the drama. So they fit together well. Theres a little girl in the middle. My dilemma what to say. I want to say to her and have in the past. Leave him or kick him out and get to alanon. She cant hear me but tells me each and every detail as crisises are unfolding expecting me to rush in and have the power to change this. I have no power and I'm not responsible for any other adult human being son or no son. That word mother is loaded with unrealistic expectations. To my son I want to say and have in the past. Surrender give up go to aa these people are the only ones in the world that can help you. You suffer from a deadly disease which you have no , none ,zero , power to control. Funny how I'm getting this disease from a variety of perspectives. Thanks for reading and for any suggestions.
hotrod said
Feb 24, 2019
Hello Lc i so understand this is indeed a dreadful disease I like the words that you wrote as to what you would like to say to his enabler. They are kind and the truth I would go for it Sending prayers and positive thoughts your way
Iamhere said
Feb 24, 2019
el-cee - I am so, so sorry the disease continues to rage at you! I can so relate in many ways. I have literally had to step back and re-evaluate boundaries with both of my boys. My oldest and his baby momma were 'there' and have come through to the other side. She did find Al-Anon and he did return to AA. I got to the point where my response to her was, "I will pray for you all." and to him was, "There is help if/when you are ready."
I had to 'go simple' and truly give my grandchildren to God and just let go with as much grace I could find. It was difficult and felt uncomfortable at times, yet God did for me what I could not do for myself. They still have many issues, challenges, etc. but have their own programs and sponsors today so I am just a sounding board for both. This has come to be as I presented myself as a listener, with no judgment, advice, etc. unless asked. They also know I don't ever share - I despise gossip of any kind within the family and anywhere else.
My youngest - I just have to bite my tongue. He's in a place similar to your son. He seems to thing that all is well if he's not doing H (so he's smoking pot, drinking, and I am not sure what else). His denial, anger, insanity and all that comes with it is way larger than me and anything I could say, do, suggest, etc. He's prayed for by me and many others daily and I am working to trust God to lead him where he needs to go.
It is difficult with kids. I never turned down an opportunity to take the boys or watch the boys and focused on how I could be of service without getting sucked into the chaos/drama. I offered a free night each week, scheduled to give them both a break. It was win/win as I got to spend time with the babies, and they got a night they could rest, or whatever. I made sure the 'break' was drama-free for the babies as I wanted them to know my house is always safe for them.
I'm sending you tons of prayers and positive energy. I guess the easy answer for me was I just had to surrender my own powerlessness and trust God to lead us all where we need/ed to be/go. Hang in there - you are not alone!
Lyne said
Feb 24, 2019
{{{el-cee}}}. I like the suggestions from both Betty and IAH. With my spouse and my son, I say whats on my mind, in the kindest most respectful way. I dont nag, im not mean, but as a loved one I do claim my right to say what I think. This is tough stuff, for sure. Prayers and hugs, Lyne
PosiesandPuppies said
Feb 24, 2019
(((((el-cee))))
I am sending you hugs and support. You are walking the toughest of roads IMHO. I agree with Betty on this... the words you have for your son's SO are truthful, but kind. I would begin to say them if you haven't already. I also like IAH's words... "There is help if/when you are ready." Not only b/c it is true, but b/c it does put the onus back where it should be... in their hands. They are truly the captains of their ships.
I too think you are right about the word "Mother" being loaded with expectations. Some are realistic, some are incredibly unrealistic. But your voice/thoughts sound strong and in control of you.
Lifting my voice up to the heavens for continued strength for you!
Peace
Bo said
Feb 24, 2019
I am certain all of us know that when the alcoholic thinks anything -- other than the fact that they are an alcoholic, they have hit rock bottom, needs help, and wants to get better, get healthy, live a life of recovery -- that is simply part of the disease. Denial, thinking everything is fine, they don't have a problem, whatever you want to call it. I once heard a recovering alcoholic in AA say...it's either one thing, or it's anything else. So, what do you say? What can you say? Check your motives vis a vis what you want him to do, ask for help, etc. Have you said it before?
Based upon everything you have described...what can you do? Have a heart-to-heart, meaningful, logical conversation with him? As far as "kick him out and/or get to alanon" -- again, check your motives. Alanon is a program of attraction, not promotion. End of the day -- and it's just for today -- as you said, she cant hear you. But, she will call you, involve you, drag you into, each and every incident, and all of the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc...and that is part of her disease! And your disease! Of course, they both expect and want you to rush in, to jump in!!!
You have said everything before. Unless he's coming to you asking for your advice...and even then you have to "not force your will" and let go...but, how about FOCUSING ON YOU. DETACH, DON'T ENABLE, DON'T JUMP IN... how about starting to react with "I am sure you'll figure this out" and "I hope it works out for you" and "OK, I hope you figure out what you need and want to do here" and more of the like. CHANGE...YOU.
He needs to figure it out on his own. He's not ready yet. Or at leas not ready for your will, want, desire...yet he does want to figure out how to have enough will-power and/or self-control. Everyone always talks about being there for the alcoholic, but in a healthy and supportive way. How many people really know what a healthy and supportive way looks like. But, more importantly, how abou being there FOR YOU. ABOUT YOU. All the best.
El said
Feb 24, 2019
(((el cee))) I am so sorry you are experiencing this. Everyone here has had valuable and insightful ESH to give. I do know that when we are dealing with our children, it is even more painful to watch and simply detach. I am sending prayers for you and the family.
Ellen
JerryF said
Feb 24, 2019
((((El Cee)))) considering the consequences of alcoholism are sobriety, insanity or death I can say in hindsight I don't have an answer to the question. The death outcome has happened to 6 generations or more in my family and nearly included me. What worked for me was having my family beyond arms length and standing shoulder to shoulder with other alcoholics and addicts listening and learning with and from them as I came to understand that they knew what this was all about and where the doors to recovery were and how to get thru them.
I had to do what others did who were successful in recovery and then to become willing to follow what they did to get there. My former sponsor taught me what "duplicate" meant and closely as I could and it has worked for me. I've had my eldest son and his son and I in the same meeting here in Hilo and I remain in recovery while the others remain very sick. I have released all of my known alcoholic/addict relatives to my Higher Power as taught in our programs and keep the Serenity and declaration repeating in my spirit.
The declaration says, "When anyone, anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of Al-Anon/AA to always be there ...and for that I am responsible". Today I point and Pray mostly as you have and then "Trust God, Clean house (mine), and keep coming back." That is my ME STATEMENT everybody else in recovery here is working it out well for themselves and all staying sober and sane.
Take them to where you go and if they want what you have...they can stay and learn as you have.
HP love you. ((((Hugs))))
2HP said
Feb 25, 2019
"How is that working for you?"
That is what my sponsor says to ME as an al-anon when I keep making the same CHOICE over and over.
Perhaps you could try it on your son and his enabler..... with an attitude of detachment. (works well when heart is absorbed in HP... Let Go Let God)
My sponsor also taught that if I've said something ONCE, that is enough. If I've said it MORE than once, I'm probably trying to "control"......
"How is that working for you?" How much is too much?
Take GOOD care of (((you))) my friend.
el-cee said
Feb 25, 2019
Thank you everyone, you have reminded me of what I need to do which seems to be accept, let go and look after me. x
pinkchip said
Feb 25, 2019
It took me until I was 36 to surrender. I could not have predicted when, how, or if I would ever get sober. I can definitely say nothing my mom did or didn't do would have changed anything after I was already in full gear. Addiction is really a terrible gamble because every crisis and screw up and bad relationship brought me closer to the last drink and to surrender. But, that isn't the case for everyone. Only his HP knows what is in store for him. Take care of you and remember that the way you live and model your own recovery is probably having more impact than you realized. The best thing you can do to influence recovery is to model it.
Bo said
Feb 25, 2019
2HP wrote:
"How is that working for you?"
That is what my sponsor says to ME as an al-anon when I keep making the same CHOICE over and over.
Perhaps you could try it on your son and his enabler..... with an attitude of detachment. (works well when heart is absorbed in HP... Let Go Let God)
My sponsor also taught that if I've said something ONCE, that is enough. If I've said it MORE than once, I'm probably trying to "control"......
"How is that working for you?" How much is too much?
Take GOOD care of (((you))) my friend.
I view that question -- which in the proper context can certainly be rhetorical -- as more of a question one asks someone who is in recovery, slipped, truly wanting and trying to get better, in program, and so on. Saying that to an addict/alcoholic doesn't land as "healthy" with me. Just me. When I look at alanon, part of what I see, as a program -- is acceptance, detachment, surrender, letting go...staying out of the way of the alcoholic, letting them hit rock bottom, without my softening the blow, intervening, etc.
My sponsor used to say his to me all the time, early on in my recovery. It became a reference, a trigger, for me to have awareness and CHANGE. But before I was ready...that would have made no sense, LOL.
Thanks for the slogan reference...I love it!
2HP said
Feb 26, 2019
@ Bo, oops! I never meant to imply there are some "healthy" catchwords we can string together to manipulate an A to get "healthy"
I, myself, am powerless over powerful alcohol, an absolute failure at reasoning with an alcoholic. Step one in my personal recovery was seeing myself becoming sick and exhausted... my breath being wasted... my words just hitting the wall and falling to the floor.
That is my experience.
My strength and hope was in beginning a practice of emotional detachment.... to save myself. My practice began with
How is that working for you?
Good luck with that.
You may be right.
Whatever is best for you.
and sometimes I felt secure enough to just SMILE and say nothing at all (Letting Go and Letting God have all of me)
El-cee is the perfect expert on her own recovery and I am confident she will disregard my post if she doesn't like it or find it useful. She knows what is best for her.
(((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Tuesday 26th of February 2019 09:16:24 AM
Bo said
Feb 26, 2019
I hear you 2HP...we're cool...I always read what you have to say, and I like it, and you are not one of the people here who "has to be right" and all that, so we are good my friend. There's enough of them here, LOL.
I didn't mean that to sound contradictory, just more for clarity. I think we look at the use of the phrase differently, and that's a good thing. It can have two uses and not one!!! That's great! I've so often found that the conversation I had with my sponsor, or a good friend from the rooms, who is in program...is very different than the conversation I am having with the alcoholic/addict...and it doesn't matter if they were sober at the moment or not.
My experience, my motivation, who I am in my recovery, and who I am as a person, period...I don't confront the alcoholic. I don't try and prove. I don't try and be right. I don't do any of that...and I don't say things that are inflammatory. Interestingly enough, no matter what is said to the alcoholic/addict, they might consider it inflammatory anyway! LOL.
I just know in my world, if I ever said "how's that working for you" to an alcoholic/addict, knowing me as a person, it's not authentic. It's a comment at best trying to make a point.
But, to each their own and that's why we take what we like and we leave the rest...and all the best.
Hello Lc i so understand this is indeed a dreadful disease I like the words that you wrote as to what you would like to say to his enabler. They are kind and the truth I would go for it
Sending prayers and positive thoughts your way
I had to 'go simple' and truly give my grandchildren to God and just let go with as much grace I could find. It was difficult and felt uncomfortable at times, yet God did for me what I could not do for myself. They still have many issues, challenges, etc. but have their own programs and sponsors today so I am just a sounding board for both. This has come to be as I presented myself as a listener, with no judgment, advice, etc. unless asked. They also know I don't ever share - I despise gossip of any kind within the family and anywhere else.
My youngest - I just have to bite my tongue. He's in a place similar to your son. He seems to thing that all is well if he's not doing H (so he's smoking pot, drinking, and I am not sure what else). His denial, anger, insanity and all that comes with it is way larger than me and anything I could say, do, suggest, etc. He's prayed for by me and many others daily and I am working to trust God to lead him where he needs to go.
It is difficult with kids. I never turned down an opportunity to take the boys or watch the boys and focused on how I could be of service without getting sucked into the chaos/drama. I offered a free night each week, scheduled to give them both a break. It was win/win as I got to spend time with the babies, and they got a night they could rest, or whatever. I made sure the 'break' was drama-free for the babies as I wanted them to know my house is always safe for them.
I'm sending you tons of prayers and positive energy. I guess the easy answer for me was I just had to surrender my own powerlessness and trust God to lead us all where we need/ed to be/go. Hang in there - you are not alone!
I am sending you hugs and support. You are walking the toughest of roads IMHO. I agree with Betty on this... the words you have for your son's SO are truthful, but kind. I would begin to say them if you haven't already. I also like IAH's words... "There is help if/when you are ready." Not only b/c it is true, but b/c it does put the onus back where it should be... in their hands. They are truly the captains of their ships.
I too think you are right about the word "Mother" being loaded with expectations. Some are realistic, some are incredibly unrealistic. But your voice/thoughts sound strong and in control of you.
Lifting my voice up to the heavens for continued strength for you!
Peace
Based upon everything you have described...what can you do? Have a heart-to-heart, meaningful, logical conversation with him? As far as "kick him out and/or get to alanon" -- again, check your motives. Alanon is a program of attraction, not promotion. End of the day -- and it's just for today -- as you said, she cant hear you. But, she will call you, involve you, drag you into, each and every incident, and all of the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc...and that is part of her disease! And your disease! Of course, they both expect and want you to rush in, to jump in!!!
You have said everything before. Unless he's coming to you asking for your advice...and even then you have to "not force your will" and let go...but, how about FOCUSING ON YOU. DETACH, DON'T ENABLE, DON'T JUMP IN... how about starting to react with "I am sure you'll figure this out" and "I hope it works out for you" and "OK, I hope you figure out what you need and want to do here" and more of the like. CHANGE...YOU.
He needs to figure it out on his own. He's not ready yet. Or at leas not ready for your will, want, desire...yet he does want to figure out how to have enough will-power and/or self-control. Everyone always talks about being there for the alcoholic, but in a healthy and supportive way. How many people really know what a healthy and supportive way looks like. But, more importantly, how abou being there FOR YOU. ABOUT YOU. All the best.
(((el cee))) I am so sorry you are experiencing this. Everyone here has had valuable and insightful ESH to give. I do know that when we are dealing with our children, it is even more painful to watch and simply detach. I am sending prayers for you and the family.
Ellen
((((El Cee)))) considering the consequences of alcoholism are sobriety, insanity or death I can say in hindsight I don't have an answer to the question. The death outcome has happened to 6 generations or more in my family and nearly included me. What worked for me was having my family beyond arms length and standing shoulder to shoulder with other alcoholics and addicts listening and learning with and from them as I came to understand that they knew what this was all about and where the doors to recovery were and how to get thru them.
I had to do what others did who were successful in recovery and then to become willing to follow what they did to get there. My former sponsor taught me what "duplicate" meant and closely as I could and it has worked for me. I've had my eldest son and his son and I in the same meeting here in Hilo and I remain in recovery while the others remain very sick. I have released all of my known alcoholic/addict relatives to my Higher Power as taught in our programs and keep the Serenity and declaration repeating in my spirit.
The declaration says, "When anyone, anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of Al-Anon/AA to always be there ...and for that I am responsible". Today I point and Pray mostly as you have and then "Trust God, Clean house (mine), and keep coming back." That is my ME STATEMENT everybody else in recovery here is working it out well for themselves and all staying sober and sane.
Take them to where you go and if they want what you have...they can stay and learn as you have.
HP love you. ((((Hugs))))
That is what my sponsor says to ME as an al-anon when I keep making the same CHOICE over and over.
Perhaps you could try it on your son and his enabler..... with an attitude of detachment. (works well when heart is absorbed in HP... Let Go Let God)
My sponsor also taught that if I've said something ONCE, that is enough. If I've said it MORE than once, I'm probably trying to "control"......
"How is that working for you?" How much is too much?
Take GOOD care of (((you))) my friend.
I view that question -- which in the proper context can certainly be rhetorical -- as more of a question one asks someone who is in recovery, slipped, truly wanting and trying to get better, in program, and so on. Saying that to an addict/alcoholic doesn't land as "healthy" with me. Just me. When I look at alanon, part of what I see, as a program -- is acceptance, detachment, surrender, letting go...staying out of the way of the alcoholic, letting them hit rock bottom, without my softening the blow, intervening, etc.
My sponsor used to say his to me all the time, early on in my recovery. It became a reference, a trigger, for me to have awareness and CHANGE. But before I was ready...that would have made no sense, LOL.
Thanks for the slogan reference...I love it!
@ Bo, oops! I never meant to imply there are some "healthy" catchwords we can string together to manipulate an A to get "healthy"
I, myself, am powerless over powerful alcohol, an absolute failure at reasoning with an alcoholic. Step one in my personal recovery was seeing myself becoming sick and exhausted... my breath being wasted... my words just hitting the wall and falling to the floor.
That is my experience.
My strength and hope was in beginning a practice of emotional detachment.... to save myself. My practice began with
How is that working for you?
Good luck with that.
You may be right.
Whatever is best for you.
and sometimes I felt secure enough to just SMILE and say nothing at all (Letting Go and Letting God have all of me)
El-cee is the perfect expert on her own recovery and I am confident she will disregard my post if she doesn't like it or find it useful. She knows what is best for her.
(((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Tuesday 26th of February 2019 09:16:24 AM
I didn't mean that to sound contradictory, just more for clarity. I think we look at the use of the phrase differently, and that's a good thing. It can have two uses and not one!!! That's great! I've so often found that the conversation I had with my sponsor, or a good friend from the rooms, who is in program...is very different than the conversation I am having with the alcoholic/addict...and it doesn't matter if they were sober at the moment or not.
My experience, my motivation, who I am in my recovery, and who I am as a person, period...I don't confront the alcoholic. I don't try and prove. I don't try and be right. I don't do any of that...and I don't say things that are inflammatory. Interestingly enough, no matter what is said to the alcoholic/addict, they might consider it inflammatory anyway! LOL.
I just know in my world, if I ever said "how's that working for you" to an alcoholic/addict, knowing me as a person, it's not authentic. It's a comment at best trying to make a point.
But, to each their own and that's why we take what we like and we leave the rest...and all the best.