I've posted here on and off for a few years, usually looking for ESH when the disease was particularly troublesome for my adult son - I like going to meetings, and I use the phone lists that I've acquired over the years, but sometimes collecting my thoughts here at the keyboard works pretty good and, LOL, gives me some time to think before I say something!
Anyway, I just wanted to remind those that are close to running out of hope, DON'T GIVE UP! I've been there, at what I thought was the end of the road, and I've often thought that things were the way they were with my son and that was it, that if things didn't end they could only get worse, as bad as they were already, and that I was only in for more of a L-O-N-G rough road that ended up going over a cliff.
But then, when things looked bleakest, my son came back home to the area where we live, and he moved in with his Mother, near me, with the intent (so he told me) of a short-term stay to make some money and then go back halfway across the country - that was a year and a half ago. Although I figured that there were other reasons for his move back here than what he said, I never asked what really prompted his move - maybe it was something akin to bottoming out or running out of options or something like that - I didn't wanna push - none of my business anyway, right?
Since he moved back, he tells me that he has been clean and sober - sure, I wonder if he really is, but I never push to be sure - one thing is for sure, he's in a heck of a lot better shape than the last time I saw him before he moved back here - his drug of choice now appears to be going to the gym, and working - and he's even been promoted at work a few times!
For me, while life is far from perfect, seeing him regularly - HEALTHY - is the best thing ever - I can talk with him about stuff like a normal Father and son talk - he smiles and laughs - he's nice to be with - and I am so unbelievably thankful.
I am careful to constantly remind myself about expectations, and taking things one day at a time, and not telling him how I think he should live his life, unless he asks me for advice - and even then I'm careful how I respond. Nor have I bought him a car, paid his rent or utilities, bailed him out of jail, or any of the old bad habits I developed.
He has mistakes to correct and damage to repair - the Student Loan folks served a wage garnishment on his employer, and instead of blowing up, he observed that "it's not the end of the world" - a much different response than he would have had previously.
I just wanted to post to remind anyone that's looking into the abyss to not give up - be realistic, but don't give up - go to meetings, pray, but pray like Step 11 tells us to, and talk with your sponsor - frequently. Hang in there !
hotrod said
Feb 10, 2019
((Texas Yankee)) thank you for such a lovely update I am happy for you and your family
Iamhere said
Feb 10, 2019
Texas Yankee - thanks for the lovely share! It's good to hear that, just for today, things are progressing! Your post gives me hope and is exactly what I needed today. I always need hope when faced with this disease as you are so right - there are days or moments in days where hope fades.
Keep coming back and my prayers continue for all of you!
JerryF said
Feb 10, 2019
I also love this share TY because it has the peace of mind and serenity attitude throughout that kept me coming back to Al-Anon for the past 40 years since the 8th. Yesterday my wife and I spent time and dinner with two of my clean and sober sons while the alcoholic/addict son remains distant 2 miles away. He doesn't like my selection of the word "victim" that I used describing his daughter's reaction to the disease with a suicidal attempt. It is best and more worthy that I just pray while turning them over to HP after all if my HP can and will used me as an example of His will and miracles why would I let my pride and ego fly thinking its all about me.
Hope to hear more ESH from you brother...glad you are doing well. ((((Hugs))))
DavidG said
Feb 10, 2019
Gr8 share TY...
there is always hope out there... even one day at a time... gr8 to read your share... ...
wp said
Feb 10, 2019
Thanks for these posts exactly when I needed them . wp
PosiesandPuppies said
Feb 11, 2019
Thank you for posting your Strength and Hope! There is all sorts of "good program stuff" that can be read from this post.
I am happy for your relationship with your son.
texas yankee said
Feb 11, 2019
LOL, I figured that I better post something uplifting, after all the crying and complaining I have done here - something else that has really helped me a lot that I touched on in my post - "pray like Step 11 tells us to" - my prayers used to consist of begging, and trying to make deals and promises with God, and crying, and reminders that I had been an alter boy as a kid (extra credit points, I figured) - of course, none of that really worked as far as I could tell - but when a friend and I were talking about praying and he reminded me about Step 11 - HOLY COW !!! It was like a new world opened up in front of me. My prayers immediately became a lot simpler, and much more focused, and they were a constant reminder that I needed almost constantly about my lack of control in pretty much anything. In addition to asking for God's will for me and the power to carry it out. I say the same prayer for each of my kids - and I also remind myself that I have no idea how God's will in these situations, but it's gotta be God's will over my flawed insights. I add a healthy dose of thanks, and get on with my life - MY LIFE, not trying to run my kid's lives.
I wish I had learned some of this stuff earlier in life, but I'm grateful that I have it now.
DavidG said
Feb 11, 2019
Ah yes, y'all... gratitude is sign of healing... and it took me a while. ...
But here we are... getting through the 'poor me's' and the good ol' 'pity party' by going through it. No shame in that!
So that light at the end of the tunnel was not a train! ...
Iamhere said
Feb 11, 2019
TY - I got a chuckle out of your follow up post! What's so awesome about we recovery is we love everyone no matter where they are in their journey. Most every post here offers me something to consider and learn from. I am so grateful that we have a program where we can 'spill' and get encouragement and support without judgment, direction, etc. And - my heart smiles big time when I get to hear about the miracles!!! I truly am glad you stopped by to share what's going well and love what David said - the light at the end of the tunnel wasn't a train! That made me chuckle again...
Keep doing you - we learn when we learn and as far as I know, it's never too late to learn more!!
Bo said
Feb 13, 2019
Remember, in the alanon material...and in the rooms of face to face alanon meetings...one thing they say is that "there is a lot of hope in these rooms" and there's a great deal of hope in the rooms of face to face alanon meetings...because it works, if you work it...so work it, you're worth it.
That said...remember...the hope...is for US. About US. For and about our recovery. Getting better, getting healthy, recovery.
In the opening of many face to face alanon meetings...it says...you can find contentment, even happiness, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not...and you can. There is the hope...for US.
lookingup said
Feb 13, 2019
Thank you for sharing this ,this indeed a we program,I'm so grateful for,,
Lu
tiredtonite said
Feb 13, 2019
Thank you for your post ((texas yankee))) Wonderful to read that your family situation has improved due to the Alanon program. Posts like yours were such an inspiration to me as a newcomer to this program. Grateful to read your positive message this morning. It truly can work if we work it and keep coming back. Glad your 12th step work brought you here to share the gifts of recovery with others. TT
2HP said
Feb 13, 2019
Wow, I am happy for HIS recovery, that is wonderful news! I am celebrating with you!!!
Yet do agree with Bo.... "How would you be otherwise?" my sponsor would ask me. Recovery in the two rooms can get confusing...
In AA, the emphasis of HOPE is indeed that they themselves stop using alcohol as a crutch.
But in the Al-anon room, the emphasis of hope is on our ability to LET GO of outcomes, we do not hitch our happiness and well-being onto anyone or anything. Our only crutch (similar to the AA's) is a strong relationship to Higher Power who brings every fulfillment. With that, we can still use your quote....
"Never lose hope - no matter how bad it gets!"
(((peace)))
texas yankee said
Feb 13, 2019
2HP - "How would you be otherwise?" - yep, that's the big question, and for me, I will admit that I am far happier when my adult son is doing well, than when he's not doing well - I'm certainly happier about him, and happier about stuff unrelated to him and my life in general. That's not to say that everything in my life rises and falls solely based on my son's situation, but his situation certainly has a big impact. I guess that I'm just not strong enough to put as much separation as I'd like to have between his illness and my life. I wish I could say that I've achieved the "detachment with love" that I'm working towards, but I'm not there - making progress, but not there - probably not even in the final stretch. I know what I need to do, but I'm not finding the "power to carry it out" (Step 11). I'm very strong with everything else in my life, but I fear that I'm destined to be much closer to "progress" than I'll ever be towards "perfection" when it comes to the Al Anon stuff. I've learned a lot in the program, and I'm able to use a lot of what I've learned to have a better life - "serenity", or something close to it - but certainly nothing close to what I see in some folks at meetings who have loved ones still using and drinking. For those I see at Al Anon meetings whose spouses or adult children have a decent track record of sobriety behind them, well sure, it's easy to have serenity. The only thing I'd have detracting from my serenity if I was in that situation would be the knowledge that they're one step away from using and being back where they were when they were using before - or far worse - but just like I am very happy now, I'd still be pretty darn happy and making the most of every moment I'm able to see him healthy and happy. I guess that's my version of living "one day at a time".
I have all the puzzle pieces, and some of them are in the right places at this point, but there are other puzzle pieces that while I may know where they go, I can't seem to get them there. It keeps my life interesting, to say the least. LOL, thank goodness that I have ADHD, so I can tell myself that I'm able to keep track of all this noise!
Another big effort I'm working on right now, pretty much separate from my son's situation but probably indirectly related, somehow, is an attempt to take a lot of the stuff \ issues rattling around inside my head, box them up, and put them in my virtual storage locker - and for that stuff, I don't need to "detach with love", I just simply need to detach.
Hope all that noise makes some kind of sense. Thanks very much, 2HP, for that observation - I bet you'd make a WONDERFUL sponsor !!!
Bo said
Feb 14, 2019
When you change the way you look at people...the people you look at begin to change.
Now, we know we can't change people. I've come to a place in life where I completely and totally have surrendered to trying to change someone else. I focus on mindfulness and being the best person I can be.
For me, in my experience, with my recovery -- that progress, not perfection -- I always found that when I didn't get it, didn't get to the point I wanted to be, etc., I just worked harder. It's normal to be better when the alcoholic is clean and sober and in recovery, as opposed to when they are not. Normal. It has to be that way. The question is to what extent. How much do "they" impact "us" and our life, our state of mind, our well-being, our health and happiness?
texas yankee -- when we get most of it, get inside the 5 yard line so to speak...that is the perfect example of when and how a sponsor can take us across the goal line!
2HP said
Feb 14, 2019
Texas Yankee, you are not alone! I once heard it said that I should want ONLY what Higher Power is bringing me today....
(This is why my mind becomes a battlefield, lol!! and why al-anon helps so much)
May you continue to swim, dance, and roll in complete GRATITUDE for what HP is bringing you today.....with the knowledge of WHO is behind it all. Programs and sponsors are NOTHING without the One who is "everything"
Your son is open to receiving that "everything", the ultimate win................. Gives me enough inspiration and HOPE.... to last a lifetime.
Iamhere said
Feb 14, 2019
Texas Yankee - As I continue to practice recovery, I work to accept and embrace that where I am today is exactly where I am supposed to be. Much like the daily reading, working harder for an outcome (even if that outcome is my growth, my serenity, my joy) is not where I find the answers. This is a spiritual program. The answers for me for continued serenity when 'life happens' come from Step 11 and how I embrace my relationship with my HP. I can go to 1M meetings and call my sponsor 1K times, but if I am still running on self-will and self-knowledge/action, I am cheating myself out of the present moment with all the miracles, learning opportunities, beauty, etc.
Recovery is not about winning nor is there a 'successful completion'. It's a personal journey that we each get to embrace based on suggestions from others who are also seeking a healthier mind, body, spirit and heart. Length of time doesn't matter - everyone is an equal participant and when we stay open to a HP and the messages from others, we learn from all.
With an AH and A Sons, I can tell you my heart hurts more/different when my boys slip than when my AH does. I don't have equal heart-ache, worry, anxiety, etc. and I believe it's because no matter how old my children get, a parent stills sees the little person who 'was' or 'could be'. I'd love to be able to say that I have profound grace and dignity at all times of chaos, disease, etc. but that's not reality. I live with the disease, I am surrounded by it more often than not and that is my reality. It surely would be easier to just pick up my life, and hibernate away from all the A(s) in my life, but that's not the plan God has for me. Instead, I do what's suggested - take life one day at a time, practice gratitude for what is and what is better, and practice patience, love and tolerance of all others - no exceptions.
Each day, I am faced with choices. When I practice what's been shared with me and trust my HP, my days are way better than not. When I allow my ego, my will, my wants to get in the way at any point, things go much different. What I really love is I can and do start my day over any time I want. There are no right/wrong ways to work this program and so long as I stay present in today, and celebrate my progress, I am good and where I am supposed to be!
You are doing awesome. You are, as we all are, a miracle in progress. Hang in there and know prayers and positive energy continue to flow from my way to you (and your son).
2HP said
Feb 14, 2019
@IAH "Recovery is not about winning nor is there a 'successful completion'."
For me on my side of the street, this is not true.
I don't use the word "winning" as in a competition. for me, I was taught that the word "recovery" should be defined by every member who believes they are "in recovery"... to eventually ask, "what am I doing here" and "what is it I hope to accomplish?"
For everyone, there will be a different answer.
For me, recovery is indeed about gaining or winning back what was lost and the 12 steps clearly show me how it works.
And just as there are rare priceless gems that are extremely hard to find, so are there those who do attain "completion" in this lifetime. It's not discussed in general program talk but that doesn't mean it's not happening in the world today. The guidance of an unlimited Higher Power is not something I insist must stay inside a limited "program" box ... the reason (to me) why they tell me keep an open mind."
To me, HP is both the "goal" and the "goalpost".. the solution and the win... but again, that is my personal interpretation when they tell me "God is everything."
that is the HOPE of recovery to me.... the hope available to everyone who believes NOTHING is impossible when they tap into a power GREATER.
take what you like and leave the rest (((hugs))) to all
Bo said
Feb 14, 2019
I agree with you 2HP.
Many people look at their own recovery differently, and certainly many people look at it through different lenses so to speak. One item which I think blurs the lines is when people are members of other fellowships and bring that perspective, that mindset, or whatever you want to call it, here to alanon. Now, in conference approved, alanon meetings -- that is not the case. There are reasons for this and they speak to it in the opening of various meetings. However, this is not a conference approved forum, and with some people it's pick and choose which principles, guidelines, etc., they follow, embrace, and in some respects ignore. That's fine.
However, if people are looking at alanon, their program, their recovery, and everything in and around that, and others are bringing other elements into play, especially that of another 12 step program and fellowship -- well, that's not alanon per se.
Be that as it may, even if it were "pure" -- the answer could certainly still be different for everyone. However, it would be based upon the same set of standards, principles, etc.
I won't speak to the HP aspect of this. I'll leave that to others, especially those who like to be right, LOL.
In my mind, in my program, there is absolutely a state, a point, an element, and more, of WINNING. That doesn't mean someone is losing. It's not about someone (else), it's about me. It's not the competitive element of winning. Personally, I don't embrace, nor do I like, when anyone gives their opinion -- and it's nothing more than opinion -- yet states it as "fact" (sure, dead medium, forum, etc. -- I get it). I don't think it's about debating successful, completion, winning, etc. To what end. Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy? LOL.
I would rather spend the time focusing on me, my recovery, whatever that means to me -- not what someone else sits in judgment of.
Thanks 2HP.
Iamhere said
Feb 14, 2019
2HP - that's what makes recovery what it is! We do get to work it in the manner that works for each person based on our situation. I won't comment any further simply because my post was to Texas Yankee who started the thread.
I will say in my area, we avoid the word winning, simply because of the actual definition - "gaining, resulting in, or relating to victory in a contest or competition." We really, really subscribe to the progress, not perfection aspect and that's my frame of reference.
I've posted here on and off for a few years, usually looking for ESH when the disease was particularly troublesome for my adult son - I like going to meetings, and I use the phone lists that I've acquired over the years, but sometimes collecting my thoughts here at the keyboard works pretty good and, LOL, gives me some time to think before I say something!
Anyway, I just wanted to remind those that are close to running out of hope, DON'T GIVE UP! I've been there, at what I thought was the end of the road, and I've often thought that things were the way they were with my son and that was it, that if things didn't end they could only get worse, as bad as they were already, and that I was only in for more of a L-O-N-G rough road that ended up going over a cliff.
But then, when things looked bleakest, my son came back home to the area where we live, and he moved in with his Mother, near me, with the intent (so he told me) of a short-term stay to make some money and then go back halfway across the country - that was a year and a half ago. Although I figured that there were other reasons for his move back here than what he said, I never asked what really prompted his move - maybe it was something akin to bottoming out or running out of options or something like that - I didn't wanna push - none of my business anyway, right?
Since he moved back, he tells me that he has been clean and sober - sure, I wonder if he really is, but I never push to be sure - one thing is for sure, he's in a heck of a lot better shape than the last time I saw him before he moved back here - his drug of choice now appears to be going to the gym, and working - and he's even been promoted at work a few times!
For me, while life is far from perfect, seeing him regularly - HEALTHY - is the best thing ever - I can talk with him about stuff like a normal Father and son talk - he smiles and laughs - he's nice to be with - and I am so unbelievably thankful.
I am careful to constantly remind myself about expectations, and taking things one day at a time, and not telling him how I think he should live his life, unless he asks me for advice - and even then I'm careful how I respond. Nor have I bought him a car, paid his rent or utilities, bailed him out of jail, or any of the old bad habits I developed.
He has mistakes to correct and damage to repair - the Student Loan folks served a wage garnishment on his employer, and instead of blowing up, he observed that "it's not the end of the world" - a much different response than he would have had previously.
I just wanted to post to remind anyone that's looking into the abyss to not give up - be realistic, but don't give up - go to meetings, pray, but pray like Step 11 tells us to, and talk with your sponsor - frequently. Hang in there !
Keep coming back and my prayers continue for all of you!
I also love this share TY because it has the peace of mind and serenity attitude throughout that kept me coming back to Al-Anon for the past 40 years since the 8th. Yesterday my wife and I spent time and dinner with two of my clean and sober sons while the alcoholic/addict son remains distant 2 miles away. He doesn't like my selection of the word "victim" that I used describing his daughter's reaction to the disease with a suicidal attempt. It is best and more worthy that I just pray while turning them over to HP after all if my HP can and will used me as an example of His will and miracles why would I let my pride and ego fly thinking its all about me.
Hope to hear more ESH from you brother...glad you are doing well. ((((Hugs))))
Gr8 share TY...
there is always hope out there... even one day at a time... gr8 to read your share...
...
I am happy for your relationship with your son.
I wish I had learned some of this stuff earlier in life, but I'm grateful that I have it now.
Ah yes, y'all... gratitude is sign of healing... and it took me a while.
...
But here we are... getting through the 'poor me's' and the good ol' 'pity party' by going through it. No shame in that!
So that light at the end of the tunnel was not a train!
...
Keep doing you - we learn when we learn and as far as I know, it's never too late to learn more!!
That said...remember...the hope...is for US. About US. For and about our recovery. Getting better, getting healthy, recovery.
In the opening of many face to face alanon meetings...it says...you can find contentment, even happiness, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not...and you can. There is the hope...for US.
Lu
Thank you for your post ((texas yankee))) Wonderful to read that your family situation has improved due to the Alanon program. Posts like yours were such an inspiration to me as a newcomer to this program. Grateful to read your positive message this morning. It truly can work if we work it and keep coming back. Glad your 12th step work brought you here to share the gifts of recovery with others. TT
Yet do agree with Bo.... "How would you be otherwise?" my sponsor would ask me. Recovery in the two rooms can get confusing...
In AA, the emphasis of HOPE is indeed that they themselves stop using alcohol as a crutch.
But in the Al-anon room, the emphasis of hope is on our ability to LET GO of outcomes, we do not hitch our happiness and well-being onto anyone or anything. Our only crutch (similar to the AA's) is a strong relationship to Higher Power who brings every fulfillment. With that, we can still use your quote....
"Never lose hope - no matter how bad it gets!"
(((peace)))
I have all the puzzle pieces, and some of them are in the right places at this point, but there are other puzzle pieces that while I may know where they go, I can't seem to get them there. It keeps my life interesting, to say the least. LOL, thank goodness that I have ADHD, so I can tell myself that I'm able to keep track of all this noise!
Another big effort I'm working on right now, pretty much separate from my son's situation but probably indirectly related, somehow, is an attempt to take a lot of the stuff \ issues rattling around inside my head, box them up, and put them in my virtual storage locker - and for that stuff, I don't need to "detach with love", I just simply need to detach.
Hope all that noise makes some kind of sense. Thanks very much, 2HP, for that observation - I bet you'd make a WONDERFUL sponsor !!!
Now, we know we can't change people. I've come to a place in life where I completely and totally have surrendered to trying to change someone else. I focus on mindfulness and being the best person I can be.
For me, in my experience, with my recovery -- that progress, not perfection -- I always found that when I didn't get it, didn't get to the point I wanted to be, etc., I just worked harder. It's normal to be better when the alcoholic is clean and sober and in recovery, as opposed to when they are not. Normal. It has to be that way. The question is to what extent. How much do "they" impact "us" and our life, our state of mind, our well-being, our health and happiness?
texas yankee -- when we get most of it, get inside the 5 yard line so to speak...that is the perfect example of when and how a sponsor can take us across the goal line!
(This is why my mind becomes a battlefield, lol!! and why al-anon helps so much)
May you continue to swim, dance, and roll in complete GRATITUDE for what HP is bringing you today.....with the knowledge of WHO is behind it all. Programs and sponsors are NOTHING without the One who is "everything"
Your son is open to receiving that "everything", the ultimate win................. Gives me enough inspiration and HOPE.... to last a lifetime.
Recovery is not about winning nor is there a 'successful completion'. It's a personal journey that we each get to embrace based on suggestions from others who are also seeking a healthier mind, body, spirit and heart. Length of time doesn't matter - everyone is an equal participant and when we stay open to a HP and the messages from others, we learn from all.
With an AH and A Sons, I can tell you my heart hurts more/different when my boys slip than when my AH does. I don't have equal heart-ache, worry, anxiety, etc. and I believe it's because no matter how old my children get, a parent stills sees the little person who 'was' or 'could be'. I'd love to be able to say that I have profound grace and dignity at all times of chaos, disease, etc. but that's not reality. I live with the disease, I am surrounded by it more often than not and that is my reality. It surely would be easier to just pick up my life, and hibernate away from all the A(s) in my life, but that's not the plan God has for me. Instead, I do what's suggested - take life one day at a time, practice gratitude for what is and what is better, and practice patience, love and tolerance of all others - no exceptions.
Each day, I am faced with choices. When I practice what's been shared with me and trust my HP, my days are way better than not. When I allow my ego, my will, my wants to get in the way at any point, things go much different. What I really love is I can and do start my day over any time I want. There are no right/wrong ways to work this program and so long as I stay present in today, and celebrate my progress, I am good and where I am supposed to be!
You are doing awesome. You are, as we all are, a miracle in progress. Hang in there and know prayers and positive energy continue to flow from my way to you (and your son).
For me on my side of the street, this is not true.
I don't use the word "winning" as in a competition. for me, I was taught that the word "recovery" should be defined by every member who believes they are "in recovery"... to eventually ask, "what am I doing here" and "what is it I hope to accomplish?"
For everyone, there will be a different answer.
For me, recovery is indeed about gaining or winning back what was lost and the 12 steps clearly show me how it works.
And just as there are rare priceless gems that are extremely hard to find, so are there those who do attain "completion" in this lifetime. It's not discussed in general program talk but that doesn't mean it's not happening in the world today. The guidance of an unlimited Higher Power is not something I insist must stay inside a limited "program" box ... the reason (to me) why they tell me keep an open mind."
To me, HP is both the "goal" and the "goalpost".. the solution and the win... but again, that is my personal interpretation when they tell me "God is everything."
that is the HOPE of recovery to me.... the hope available to everyone who believes NOTHING is impossible when they tap into a power GREATER.
take what you like and leave the rest (((hugs))) to all
Many people look at their own recovery differently, and certainly many people look at it through different lenses so to speak. One item which I think blurs the lines is when people are members of other fellowships and bring that perspective, that mindset, or whatever you want to call it, here to alanon. Now, in conference approved, alanon meetings -- that is not the case. There are reasons for this and they speak to it in the opening of various meetings. However, this is not a conference approved forum, and with some people it's pick and choose which principles, guidelines, etc., they follow, embrace, and in some respects ignore. That's fine.
However, if people are looking at alanon, their program, their recovery, and everything in and around that, and others are bringing other elements into play, especially that of another 12 step program and fellowship -- well, that's not alanon per se.
Be that as it may, even if it were "pure" -- the answer could certainly still be different for everyone. However, it would be based upon the same set of standards, principles, etc.
I won't speak to the HP aspect of this. I'll leave that to others, especially those who like to be right, LOL.
In my mind, in my program, there is absolutely a state, a point, an element, and more, of WINNING. That doesn't mean someone is losing. It's not about someone (else), it's about me. It's not the competitive element of winning. Personally, I don't embrace, nor do I like, when anyone gives their opinion -- and it's nothing more than opinion -- yet states it as "fact" (sure, dead medium, forum, etc. -- I get it). I don't think it's about debating successful, completion, winning, etc. To what end. Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy? LOL.
I would rather spend the time focusing on me, my recovery, whatever that means to me -- not what someone else sits in judgment of.
Thanks 2HP.
I will say in my area, we avoid the word winning, simply because of the actual definition - "gaining, resulting in, or relating to victory in a contest or competition." We really, really subscribe to the progress, not perfection aspect and that's my frame of reference.