Hi MIP - I haven't written an update in a while, so here goes! My XAH has almost disappeared over the last 6 months - ever since he got his share of the house money he has been on a very quick downward spiral from alcoholism into drug addiction as well. I wrote a while ago discussing my struggle with the decision to expose my daughter to him, even though it would be supervised I feared it might not be great for her to see him in his current state - that was in November. (he basically disappeared and didn't ask for visitation for a few months and then popped up again) In the end I decided to meet him for a coffee to assess his state and it wasn't good at all. He was sober when we met, but he looked really deteriorated and it's pretty clear he isn't well. Through Christmas I attempted to let him have one supervised visit with her, but it was a slate of moving demands, always demanding last minute access and not following through on any plans while accusing me of keeping his daughter from him. He became more and more erratic and aggressive I finally said I have had enough, I can't be the intermediary for this relationship any more. There has been other petty stuff as well, where he still tries to place the responsibility of his life at my feet.
My lawyer sent him a letter recommending 3rd party supervision and he has really escalated the last few days - telling me he will show up with the police, etc. and he "won't allow me to criminalize and demean him as a father to our daughter" - pretty sure he did that himself. I have blocked his numbers but those messages got through on Facebook before I was able to ignore the conversations, and his voicemails still come through. I am a full time parent and I know it is clear who has been the reliable stable parent - and yet his threats get to me. This morning he left 3 voicemails, I haven't listened to them all the way through, but he is back to being the calm, charming, together man that he can be and I'm embarrassed to say it makes me doubt myself. I know this was an issue in my marriage and why I stayed so long, he can manipulate me so easily and make me doubt the reality I can see so clearly. I can look at the facts - the way he looks, lost his job, doesn't have a permanent address, a photo of a crack pipe, and yet I think "maybe he's not as bad or far gone as I think" - does anyone have any insight into this? I find it so puzzling, and I don't have this issue elsewhere in my life. I see all the facts and I feel like it all makes sense and then he goes right into how I'm overreacting and making this into something that it's not, etc. and it makes me stop in my tracks. It makes me feel weak and confused and I hate that his threats are able to rattle me so much. Thanks for any ESH and of course, for listening. This board is a godsend and I read daily still.
Iamhere said
Jan 31, 2019
Hey VickiR - good to see you back posting. I am sorry for all the insanity this disease brings. It is so, so easy for us to get pulled/sucked back into the chaos and consider boarding that merry-go-round of denial....for me, much of the self-doubt I have had is when I have lost my way with my own recovery. I do much, much better at detaching from the actions, words, deeds and insanity of those with this disease when I am apply all that's been suggested in this program.
When 'life' happens, I have added more meetings, added more sponsor, added more literature and added more service to my routine. This distracts me from wanting to jump back in or react and also helps me recenter to keep the focus on me, my recovery and my sanity. One Day at a Time, I just do all that I can to align with this program and healthy people.
As far as 'contact' with --- I too have blocked mine when they are really sick. When I do this, I also tend to delay listening to any voicemails until I am ready/prepared to listen. I figure if there is a real emergency, they will keep smiling/dialing until they reach a live body and more will be revealed to me when it's supposed to be revealed. This level of detaching for me was extremely difficult in the beginning but has gotten easier with practice, practice, practice. My youngest is currently a bit crazy and sends some mean and hateful texts as he doesn't 'like the rules'. I tend to just not respond or 'drop the rope' as I just have no interest in engaging in the insanity. I am always ready/willing to have a discussion with some common sense respect guidelines, but I just have a boundary that I don't do crazy any more, for any reason at any time.
Take good care of you and remember those three C(s)....my best suggestion is to lean into your program as best you can and lean into a sponsor or trusted program friends too - all of this has carried me when things get rough!! (((Hugs))) - keep coming back!
canadianguy said
Jan 31, 2019
Hi Vicki... that's definitely a tough one....
The main thing that struck me is the reminder of the value of journaling, when our A's put us through that emotional roller coaster (both good and bad). If we journal, and jot down our thoughts and emotions of how we are made to feel on the given day...... that helps guide us a bit, and get somewhat off the CRR (crazy rollercoaster ride).... Without it, I used to find it so easy to slip into the moment, as in my ex-AW could treat me unacceptably poorly for ten days in a row, and then act like a human decent being on day 11, and I wanted to believe she had changed for the better, and this time was going to be different..... When I started journaling, it became a lot more evident that these occasional 'nice days' were simply a pattern of her erratic and irrational behavior..... Not saying for sure that your ex is doing the same (intentionally or not), but it does seem eerily similar....
Child visitation is such a slippery slope and touchy subject..... He potentially has some legal avenues/rights, and he can choose to pursue those options (though many active A's don't actually follow through). You rightfully are trying to protect your daughter, and - as always - it is important to check your motives, look in the mirror, and ensure that you are being 'reasonable' in all of this.... Sounds to me like you are doing the best you can, given the circumstances, and it would seem logical - given his erratic behavior - that he would have to "earn" his right to be back in your daughter's life on a regular basis.... Children want consistency and dependability..... An active A who disappears for months and then suddenly reappears, demanding his "rights" - does not exactly seem stable, and is unlikely to be granted a whole lot of access or sympathy from the courts....
My wise old sponsor used to tell me to "stop expecting sick and irrational people to behave in healthy and rational ways", and your A seems to fit that quite well.....
In Canada, there are government agencies, social workers, etc., who could possibly act as a third party, and help sort out this mess, but my thoughts would be that you may want to visit them first, rather than with your A...
Hope that helps - not easy at all
Tom
norasq said
Jan 31, 2019
VickiR, I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. It sounds like you are doing so many right things -- blocking his messages, letting your lawyer handle things, to protect yourself and your daughter.
But what really resonates with me (aside from the fact that I too have a daughter, and sorting out how to help her cope with her dad's distance and substance issues is an ongoing challenge for me) is your talking about doubting yourself. BOY DO I HEAR YOU. This is a huge, huge issue for me. Better now than it was when I was married to my Ex-A, but still a challenge.
From my experience, I know how much my dynamic with my Ex during our marriage dug this groove in my mind. He would tell me one thing -- I would see or think another, but -- trying to be a good wife, WANTING to give him the benefit of the doubt, I would think "maybe i'm wrong" or "maybe I misunderstood" or "maybe I'm not remembering accurately." In the earliest times, when I didn't understand how much he was drinking and taking xanax (done covertly), his behaviors confused me. When I'd try to talk to him, he'd tell me that I was imagining things. I was wrong. I was misunderstanding. And I guess I wanted to believe that he was telling me the truth. Over time, the disparity between what I saw and what he said became greater and greater. Still, my first impulse was to believe HIM over believing what I saw or felt. I don't blame my Ex for this dynamic -- it's part of my codependent impulses and also a childhood/family dynamic of it never being okay to talk about anything bad, problems etc.
At any rate, I guess I want to share my experience with you as you seem to be puzzling over how it is that you can see the clear evidence of your Ex's substance abuse and erratic and abusive behavior, but when he sounds charming and good, you doubt yourself. I really do understand this dynamic. Here's my conclusion for myself: I know that, despite all of the rational evidence and what I KNOW to be true, I still want to believe my Ex is the good guy I married and adopted a child with. I married him and started a family with him for a reason. I loved him deeply. I saw the best parts of him, and always saw the potential for him to be his best self. So my doubting myself when I hear those moments of "the good guy" is related to WANTING him to be that side of himself ALL of the time. It's about wanting to believe that my choice of him as a husband and father was a good choice. It's about wanting to believe that he can get past his addictive behaviors and become the man I thought he was, and still on some level hope he can be. I want to believe that he can be a good and present dad.
I've done a lot of individual counseling over this -- my self-doubt, especially around my Ex. I have learned to be gentle with this aspect of myself. My counselor has suggested that this can come from good qualities -- we want to give others the benefit of the doubt. We are willing to reconsider our own views. We want to believe the best about people. It's when it gets out of balance and overrides what we know and see and experience that it's hard.
Alanon -- meetings, this forum, readings -- help remind me that this, too, is part of unrealistic expectations. When I see a moment of the "good guy," doubting myself is connected with hope/belief that he IS that good guy all of the time. It's as if that hope flares up into "Maybe he really is fixed now and everything is going to be okay." But that isn't true, for one thing, and it's not helpful for me or for him. He's going to be who he's going to be. Charming one moment, abusive and under the effects of something the next. That just is.
In another therapy experience, I learned the saying "I know it because I learned it." When I start doubting myself, I think of that saying. It reminds me that the doubts are habit -- and that I don't need to doubt myself. I know what i know because I have learned what I know through many experiences. If my Ex (or yours) truly is changing, you don't need to doubt yourself. You will see it over time. But for now, we know what we know because we lived through the reality.
It sounds like you are being so strong and taking good care of your daughter. Good for you.
Bo said
Jan 31, 2019
I went through similar things -- where I doubted myself, my decisions, etc., primarily because the alcoholic/addict "was good" for brief periods of time. That's all it is. They can pull it together for a day, a week, even a month, and they can be charming, convincing, appear to be truthful, loving, and so much more. And that strikes us at the heart of OUR disease, OUR sickness. The facade of them being "good" is nothing more than that...a facade! Why? Well, it doesn't matter why and that's where we get our triggers, our slip -- we try and figure out why, we doubt ourselves, our thinking, our healthy thinking, our sound, just, healthy decision making. It is a facade! How do we know?
We don't have to know why. The more we try and figure it out the more we drive ourselves crazy. But, how do we know it's a facade? Because...they are not clean and sober and living a life of recovery!!! Either they are or they are NOT. And we go through our denial, our justification, vacillation, rationalization, etc. -- and we do that when they are NOT clean and sober and living a life of recovery!!!
If they aren't...they aren't. Simple. Clear-cut. Black and white. We don't see it that way because we want what we want, our sickness, and many other reasons.
Doing the right thing, the healthy thing...is sometimes hard. It is sometimes difficult. It is sometimes not easy. The right decision is not always the easy one.
JerryF said
Jan 31, 2019
Aloha VickiR and Mahalo (thank you) for bringing this most important and helpful subject to the board. It reminds me of so much experience and gratitude I have for the recovery process and Al-Anon and AA and my VA counseling and college experiences and my sponsorship and all of the rest I have come across and used in my own recovery.
This is a post I would read with a marker pen in my hand to underline and remember ESH tools I needed to have with me all of the time. Read it! Overline it! memorized it! Practice it! Ask for more help!!! It is what I did and what I still do and what I gave away to a newcomer at my morning meeting.
I remind myself to least trust least experience and most trust the longest most successful experience. I ask as you have, "Can you help me please" and then I listen, listen, listen with and open mind. When my mind is closed I know it by the amount of opposition and distance I place between me and the ESH.
I also built a gang of supporters that I could rely on and who didn't mind me coming thru their door with "Please...can you help me"?
Good on you bringing it here to and with us...We all learn and get more stronger. (((((hug)))))
VickiR said
Feb 1, 2019
Thank you for these amazing responses everyone, it is so nice to have a place to put these thoughts. I have been doing individual therapy over the past year and a half, which helps, but this board is where I feel the most understood. Especially hearing that you all can relate to the doubt, especially when faced with very clear obvious evidence. Also the A's ability to have ridiculously short periods of keeping it together, where you can almost trick yourself into thinking they "got it" and "snapped out of it" - in my marriage I agree, 6 bad days, 1 good day and I would be like "maybe things are improving" - and I could hear myself thinking it and knowing how it couldn't possibly make sense - these aren't problems you just wake up and fix one day, but still it happened again and again.
norasq - I love that - "I know it because I learned it" - so simple but reassuring.
As it stands, one of his friends that I trust has reached out offering to supervise a quick visit on Sunday. I'm trying very hard to find my own motives - trying to sense what is about control for me, vs. keeping my daughter safe, and who I am making the decision for. Right now I'm still feeling unsure of the right move. Going no contact with him has been such a gift though - no more tendrils of manipulation trying to drag me back in, I know that was the right decision for me and my life moving forward.
I know in time this situation will sort itself out, so much has been revealed over the past year - if I just stay calm and make what feels like the right decision each time, I know I will get there. one day at a time. This board is such a source of strength and learning and a constant blessing.
Hi MIP - I haven't written an update in a while, so here goes! My XAH has almost disappeared over the last 6 months - ever since he got his share of the house money he has been on a very quick downward spiral from alcoholism into drug addiction as well. I wrote a while ago discussing my struggle with the decision to expose my daughter to him, even though it would be supervised I feared it might not be great for her to see him in his current state - that was in November. (he basically disappeared and didn't ask for visitation for a few months and then popped up again) In the end I decided to meet him for a coffee to assess his state and it wasn't good at all. He was sober when we met, but he looked really deteriorated and it's pretty clear he isn't well. Through Christmas I attempted to let him have one supervised visit with her, but it was a slate of moving demands, always demanding last minute access and not following through on any plans while accusing me of keeping his daughter from him. He became more and more erratic and aggressive I finally said I have had enough, I can't be the intermediary for this relationship any more. There has been other petty stuff as well, where he still tries to place the responsibility of his life at my feet.
My lawyer sent him a letter recommending 3rd party supervision and he has really escalated the last few days - telling me he will show up with the police, etc. and he "won't allow me to criminalize and demean him as a father to our daughter" - pretty sure he did that himself. I have blocked his numbers but those messages got through on Facebook before I was able to ignore the conversations, and his voicemails still come through. I am a full time parent and I know it is clear who has been the reliable stable parent - and yet his threats get to me. This morning he left 3 voicemails, I haven't listened to them all the way through, but he is back to being the calm, charming, together man that he can be and I'm embarrassed to say it makes me doubt myself. I know this was an issue in my marriage and why I stayed so long, he can manipulate me so easily and make me doubt the reality I can see so clearly. I can look at the facts - the way he looks, lost his job, doesn't have a permanent address, a photo of a crack pipe, and yet I think "maybe he's not as bad or far gone as I think" - does anyone have any insight into this? I find it so puzzling, and I don't have this issue elsewhere in my life. I see all the facts and I feel like it all makes sense and then he goes right into how I'm overreacting and making this into something that it's not, etc. and it makes me stop in my tracks. It makes me feel weak and confused and I hate that his threats are able to rattle me so much. Thanks for any ESH and of course, for listening. This board is a godsend and I read daily still.
When 'life' happens, I have added more meetings, added more sponsor, added more literature and added more service to my routine. This distracts me from wanting to jump back in or react and also helps me recenter to keep the focus on me, my recovery and my sanity. One Day at a Time, I just do all that I can to align with this program and healthy people.
As far as 'contact' with --- I too have blocked mine when they are really sick. When I do this, I also tend to delay listening to any voicemails until I am ready/prepared to listen. I figure if there is a real emergency, they will keep smiling/dialing until they reach a live body and more will be revealed to me when it's supposed to be revealed. This level of detaching for me was extremely difficult in the beginning but has gotten easier with practice, practice, practice. My youngest is currently a bit crazy and sends some mean and hateful texts as he doesn't 'like the rules'. I tend to just not respond or 'drop the rope' as I just have no interest in engaging in the insanity. I am always ready/willing to have a discussion with some common sense respect guidelines, but I just have a boundary that I don't do crazy any more, for any reason at any time.
Take good care of you and remember those three C(s)....my best suggestion is to lean into your program as best you can and lean into a sponsor or trusted program friends too - all of this has carried me when things get rough!! (((Hugs))) - keep coming back!
Hi Vicki... that's definitely a tough one....
The main thing that struck me is the reminder of the value of journaling, when our A's put us through that emotional roller coaster (both good and bad). If we journal, and jot down our thoughts and emotions of how we are made to feel on the given day...... that helps guide us a bit, and get somewhat off the CRR (crazy rollercoaster ride).... Without it, I used to find it so easy to slip into the moment, as in my ex-AW could treat me unacceptably poorly for ten days in a row, and then act like a human decent being on day 11, and I wanted to believe she had changed for the better, and this time was going to be different..... When I started journaling, it became a lot more evident that these occasional 'nice days' were simply a pattern of her erratic and irrational behavior..... Not saying for sure that your ex is doing the same (intentionally or not), but it does seem eerily similar....
Child visitation is such a slippery slope and touchy subject..... He potentially has some legal avenues/rights, and he can choose to pursue those options (though many active A's don't actually follow through). You rightfully are trying to protect your daughter, and - as always - it is important to check your motives, look in the mirror, and ensure that you are being 'reasonable' in all of this.... Sounds to me like you are doing the best you can, given the circumstances, and it would seem logical - given his erratic behavior - that he would have to "earn" his right to be back in your daughter's life on a regular basis.... Children want consistency and dependability..... An active A who disappears for months and then suddenly reappears, demanding his "rights" - does not exactly seem stable, and is unlikely to be granted a whole lot of access or sympathy from the courts....
My wise old sponsor used to tell me to "stop expecting sick and irrational people to behave in healthy and rational ways", and your A seems to fit that quite well.....
In Canada, there are government agencies, social workers, etc., who could possibly act as a third party, and help sort out this mess, but my thoughts would be that you may want to visit them first, rather than with your A...
Hope that helps - not easy at all
Tom
But what really resonates with me (aside from the fact that I too have a daughter, and sorting out how to help her cope with her dad's distance and substance issues is an ongoing challenge for me) is your talking about doubting yourself. BOY DO I HEAR YOU. This is a huge, huge issue for me. Better now than it was when I was married to my Ex-A, but still a challenge.
From my experience, I know how much my dynamic with my Ex during our marriage dug this groove in my mind. He would tell me one thing -- I would see or think another, but -- trying to be a good wife, WANTING to give him the benefit of the doubt, I would think "maybe i'm wrong" or "maybe I misunderstood" or "maybe I'm not remembering accurately." In the earliest times, when I didn't understand how much he was drinking and taking xanax (done covertly), his behaviors confused me. When I'd try to talk to him, he'd tell me that I was imagining things. I was wrong. I was misunderstanding. And I guess I wanted to believe that he was telling me the truth. Over time, the disparity between what I saw and what he said became greater and greater. Still, my first impulse was to believe HIM over believing what I saw or felt. I don't blame my Ex for this dynamic -- it's part of my codependent impulses and also a childhood/family dynamic of it never being okay to talk about anything bad, problems etc.
At any rate, I guess I want to share my experience with you as you seem to be puzzling over how it is that you can see the clear evidence of your Ex's substance abuse and erratic and abusive behavior, but when he sounds charming and good, you doubt yourself. I really do understand this dynamic. Here's my conclusion for myself: I know that, despite all of the rational evidence and what I KNOW to be true, I still want to believe my Ex is the good guy I married and adopted a child with. I married him and started a family with him for a reason. I loved him deeply. I saw the best parts of him, and always saw the potential for him to be his best self. So my doubting myself when I hear those moments of "the good guy" is related to WANTING him to be that side of himself ALL of the time. It's about wanting to believe that my choice of him as a husband and father was a good choice. It's about wanting to believe that he can get past his addictive behaviors and become the man I thought he was, and still on some level hope he can be. I want to believe that he can be a good and present dad.
I've done a lot of individual counseling over this -- my self-doubt, especially around my Ex. I have learned to be gentle with this aspect of myself. My counselor has suggested that this can come from good qualities -- we want to give others the benefit of the doubt. We are willing to reconsider our own views. We want to believe the best about people. It's when it gets out of balance and overrides what we know and see and experience that it's hard.
Alanon -- meetings, this forum, readings -- help remind me that this, too, is part of unrealistic expectations. When I see a moment of the "good guy," doubting myself is connected with hope/belief that he IS that good guy all of the time. It's as if that hope flares up into "Maybe he really is fixed now and everything is going to be okay." But that isn't true, for one thing, and it's not helpful for me or for him. He's going to be who he's going to be. Charming one moment, abusive and under the effects of something the next. That just is.
In another therapy experience, I learned the saying "I know it because I learned it." When I start doubting myself, I think of that saying. It reminds me that the doubts are habit -- and that I don't need to doubt myself. I know what i know because I have learned what I know through many experiences. If my Ex (or yours) truly is changing, you don't need to doubt yourself. You will see it over time. But for now, we know what we know because we lived through the reality.
It sounds like you are being so strong and taking good care of your daughter. Good for you.
We don't have to know why. The more we try and figure it out the more we drive ourselves crazy. But, how do we know it's a facade? Because...they are not clean and sober and living a life of recovery!!! Either they are or they are NOT. And we go through our denial, our justification, vacillation, rationalization, etc. -- and we do that when they are NOT clean and sober and living a life of recovery!!!
If they aren't...they aren't. Simple. Clear-cut. Black and white. We don't see it that way because we want what we want, our sickness, and many other reasons.
Doing the right thing, the healthy thing...is sometimes hard. It is sometimes difficult. It is sometimes not easy. The right decision is not always the easy one.
Aloha VickiR and Mahalo (thank you) for bringing this most important and helpful subject to the board. It reminds me of so much experience and gratitude I have for the recovery process and Al-Anon and AA and my VA counseling and college experiences and my sponsorship and all of the rest I have come across and used in my own recovery.
This is a post I would read with a marker pen in my hand to underline and remember ESH tools I needed to have with me all of the time. Read it! Overline it! memorized it! Practice it! Ask for more help!!! It is what I did and what I still do and what I gave away to a newcomer at my morning meeting.
I remind myself to least trust least experience and most trust the longest most successful experience. I ask as you have, "Can you help me please" and then I listen, listen, listen with and open mind. When my mind is closed I know it by the amount of opposition and distance I place between me and the ESH.
I also built a gang of supporters that I could rely on and who didn't mind me coming thru their door with "Please...can you help me"?
Good on you bringing it here to and with us...We all learn and get more stronger. (((((hug)))))
norasq - I love that - "I know it because I learned it" - so simple but reassuring.
As it stands, one of his friends that I trust has reached out offering to supervise a quick visit on Sunday. I'm trying very hard to find my own motives - trying to sense what is about control for me, vs. keeping my daughter safe, and who I am making the decision for. Right now I'm still feeling unsure of the right move. Going no contact with him has been such a gift though - no more tendrils of manipulation trying to drag me back in, I know that was the right decision for me and my life moving forward.
I know in time this situation will sort itself out, so much has been revealed over the past year - if I just stay calm and make what feels like the right decision each time, I know I will get there. one day at a time. This board is such a source of strength and learning and a constant blessing.