It is so hard for me to hold on to what I know to be true. That my husband's alcoholism has nothing to do with me, that he hasn't earned my trust and that I have a right to my boundaries. He has always been a better debater than me. I get so turned around that I end up defending my detachment, my boundaries. I ended up writing him a letter so I could say what I needed to without being interrupted, but I don't think he'll hear that either.
Ugh.
hotrod said
Nov 1, 2018
((Justformenow))) i Learned not to engage with an alcoholic drinking or not. Detachment works because we do not need to explain ourselves or receive permission to focus on ourselves and honor our principles.
Meetings with members who understand as few others can are extremely important. Please search out alanon face to face meetings and attend . The program works if we work it . You are not alone
Bo said
Nov 1, 2018
A lot of what we learn in alanon -- and when we work our program, which of course is for us, and not the alcoholic -- is not designed to be "defended" or "justified" so to speak. As a matter of fact, a lot of what we do -- when we do it right -- might be met with anger, hostility, blame, guilt, accusations, name-calling, finger-pointing, and more. Standing and living in our program -- out truth -- is not easy. It will be attacked! It will be met with opposition. It is supposed to be, LOL...because we are no longer doing what the alcoholic wants us to do. We are no longer doing what we always did.
As far as a loved one's alcoholism having nothing to do with us -- that is simply about acceptance. Total, complete, and absolute acceptance. In my experience, people tend to gloss over and rush through acceptance. They think it's about acceptance just being about accepting that we are powerless over alcohol, and that we accept that we cannot get the alcoholic to stop drinking, etc.
As far as boundaries -- I don't view it as having a right to my boundaries as much as I view it as I am protecting myself, and I have the right to protect myself against that which can hurt me or harm me.
I don't debate the alcoholic. Never. I don't argue with the alcoholic. Never. I don't engage with the alcoholic. Never. And as a result -- I've found peace, serenity, harmony, peace of mind, and more. I no longer have anxiety. The direct and collateral damage of this disease used to cause massive anxiety. I know longer have anger and resentment, which I used to harbor and hold onto.
I never made an effort to justify, defend, or explain, anything that I learned in alanon. I was able to re-state my boundaries, leave the room, leave the house, say "I am sorry you feel that way" or "I am not going to get into this with you right now" or "I am not going to engage with you right now" or many other things I learned and worked on with my sponsor. Once you leave behind the desire to explain or defend, you are freeing yourself up from engaging in conflict. It might be two steps backward for three steps forward -- but that's for YOU. Not the alcoholic. Remember...nothing in alanon is about the alcoholic. Look at the steps, look at our tools and resources. They are for US. Not the alcoholic. It took me a long time to realize that. At times, it became a bit of a battle of wills, but my health and my well-being depended on me doing what was best and healthy for me, so I wasn't going to lose that battle. LOL.
All the best.
Bo said
Nov 1, 2018
And...yes...it can be hard. We have to find ways to not make it so hard. I worked a great deal with my sponsor on this.
I always wanted to be part of the solution...not part of the problem.
Iamhere said
Nov 2, 2018
(((JFMN))) - sending tons of prayers and positive thoughts. Living with active alcoholism is a challenge and is very painful at times! Know that you are not alone. I have gotten better at using J-A-D-E with mine - Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. I am also reminded often that we are focused on progress only, not perfection.
My go-to tools in the moments of 'undesired debating' are the Serenity Prayer and the abbreviated version - Bless Them, Change Me. These both repeated in my head help me to remember I am not alone and this too shall pass. Keep coming back!
KT2015 said
Nov 2, 2018
Hi there JustForMeNow
Thanks for posting such an honest share. I used to say the same about my AH. I used to tell him he should have been a lawyer because he could argue anything! And one of the most valuable tools for me was JADE as Iamhere has described. I used to really think that I had to justify my feelings to my AH and when I learned that I didn't there was no arguing. The dynamics in our relationship changed for the better because eventually he stopped that annoying habit of trying to convince me that my thoughts and feelings were wrong and I stopped the annoying habit of justifying everything I said and did. It's interesting how quickly dynamics can change when just one person changes their approach. Like the literature says only one person has to put down the rope to end a struggle like this. In my experience the more I JADED the more entrenched he became in his belief that I was wrong.
Things with my AH got a lot better when I took my hands off his problem. He knows what I think and I don't need to explain it any further. He takes more ownership for his behaviour and his drinking than he ever has now that I no longer try to discuss it with him. On the rare occasion now that his drinking causes an upset (he says something mean or rude) I remove myself from his presence and I tell him very simply that I do not appreciate his behaviour and refuse to argue about it. It has amazed me how effectively that has worked for me. It was hard to adjust to this kind of thing because I would often want to talk about it over and over again. I realized after things changed between us that he knows he has a problem despite his denial of it if I talk about it, he doesn't want to face it, me bringing it up over and over only causes him to feel shame about it AND makes him stronger in his need to argue with me about it instead of face it. Instead I focus on the positives in my life and what I want for me. It does make me a better partner and parent when I am focused on my wellbeing and happiness.
Keep coming back.
HUGS
Bo said
Nov 2, 2018
Excellent points KT...THANKS!!!
When WE change the way WE look at people...the people WE look at begin to change.
When WE change the way WE deal with the alcoholic...the alcoholic WE deal with begins to change.
Keep coming back.
JerryF said
Nov 2, 2018
Aloha Every one and thanks for the feed back to JFMN's post. I meditated and remember how I was and did it and what I did to change the things I could because earliest I reacted with my violent personality language, attitude, behavior and more. I didn't know and didn't know I didn't know so I had nothing but reactive tools and of course each situation came out more worse than intended or wished for by anyone involved or seemingly attached. I almost took my alcoholic/addicts life one evening trying only to be listened to and acknowledged and in the morning I could not believe what she looked like and that I could have done such damage and then again wrong again.
It took time and support and work and practice to learn a healthy mindset and then to keep it even to now. I had to replace all of the stuff I found that I was using that didn't work and change myself even when I didn't know what or how.
Our program had and still has all of the solutions for me so my mindset is our program...all of it. I love the slogan, "Keep on keeping on...this works when we work it. Again thanks. (((((Hugs)))))
luv123 said
Nov 2, 2018
You are right--it isn't so easy to change habits of a lifetime. I ditto all the great ala-ideas & stuff and especially learning/practicing JADE. I needed to go to lots of meetings to be strong enough not to cave in my boundaries & self care, had to do my daily readings /prayer/meditation with diligence and reason things out with members after meetings in the hall or with my sponsor-and like u are doing in writing to us. I often caved early on because my drug was the A's illusive love and approval--so when I gradually started filling that empty place with God/HP & self love/care, staying strong came more easily. One sponsor taught me to always say "I love you but..." when I set or upheld a boundary. I love you but (or and) I cannot continue this discussion...(pay your bills, support your self distruction in any way etc. etc.). When they keep hounding us, we can just repeat ourselves once and then stop, leave room, go for walk etc. We teach ppl how they can treat us and Al-anon gives them some much improved lessons.
HP will help you through all this - am praying for your strength.
It is so hard for me to hold on to what I know to be true. That my husband's alcoholism has nothing to do with me, that he hasn't earned my trust and that I have a right to my boundaries. He has always been a better debater than me. I get so turned around that I end up defending my detachment, my boundaries. I ended up writing him a letter so I could say what I needed to without being interrupted, but I don't think he'll hear that either.
Ugh.
Meetings with members who understand as few others can are extremely important. Please search out alanon face to face meetings and attend . The program works if we work it . You are not alone
As far as a loved one's alcoholism having nothing to do with us -- that is simply about acceptance. Total, complete, and absolute acceptance. In my experience, people tend to gloss over and rush through acceptance. They think it's about acceptance just being about accepting that we are powerless over alcohol, and that we accept that we cannot get the alcoholic to stop drinking, etc.
As far as boundaries -- I don't view it as having a right to my boundaries as much as I view it as I am protecting myself, and I have the right to protect myself against that which can hurt me or harm me.
I don't debate the alcoholic. Never. I don't argue with the alcoholic. Never. I don't engage with the alcoholic. Never. And as a result -- I've found peace, serenity, harmony, peace of mind, and more. I no longer have anxiety. The direct and collateral damage of this disease used to cause massive anxiety. I know longer have anger and resentment, which I used to harbor and hold onto.
I never made an effort to justify, defend, or explain, anything that I learned in alanon. I was able to re-state my boundaries, leave the room, leave the house, say "I am sorry you feel that way" or "I am not going to get into this with you right now" or "I am not going to engage with you right now" or many other things I learned and worked on with my sponsor. Once you leave behind the desire to explain or defend, you are freeing yourself up from engaging in conflict. It might be two steps backward for three steps forward -- but that's for YOU. Not the alcoholic. Remember...nothing in alanon is about the alcoholic. Look at the steps, look at our tools and resources. They are for US. Not the alcoholic. It took me a long time to realize that. At times, it became a bit of a battle of wills, but my health and my well-being depended on me doing what was best and healthy for me, so I wasn't going to lose that battle. LOL.
All the best.
I always wanted to be part of the solution...not part of the problem.
My go-to tools in the moments of 'undesired debating' are the Serenity Prayer and the abbreviated version - Bless Them, Change Me. These both repeated in my head help me to remember I am not alone and this too shall pass. Keep coming back!
Thanks for posting such an honest share. I used to say the same about my AH. I used to tell him he should have been a lawyer because he could argue anything! And one of the most valuable tools for me was JADE as Iamhere has described. I used to really think that I had to justify my feelings to my AH and when I learned that I didn't there was no arguing. The dynamics in our relationship changed for the better because eventually he stopped that annoying habit of trying to convince me that my thoughts and feelings were wrong and I stopped the annoying habit of justifying everything I said and did. It's interesting how quickly dynamics can change when just one person changes their approach. Like the literature says only one person has to put down the rope to end a struggle like this. In my experience the more I JADED the more entrenched he became in his belief that I was wrong.
Things with my AH got a lot better when I took my hands off his problem. He knows what I think and I don't need to explain it any further. He takes more ownership for his behaviour and his drinking than he ever has now that I no longer try to discuss it with him. On the rare occasion now that his drinking causes an upset (he says something mean or rude) I remove myself from his presence and I tell him very simply that I do not appreciate his behaviour and refuse to argue about it. It has amazed me how effectively that has worked for me. It was hard to adjust to this kind of thing because I would often want to talk about it over and over again. I realized after things changed between us that he knows he has a problem despite his denial of it if I talk about it, he doesn't want to face it, me bringing it up over and over only causes him to feel shame about it AND makes him stronger in his need to argue with me about it instead of face it. Instead I focus on the positives in my life and what I want for me. It does make me a better partner and parent when I am focused on my wellbeing and happiness.
Keep coming back.
HUGS
When WE change the way WE look at people...the people WE look at begin to change.
When WE change the way WE deal with the alcoholic...the alcoholic WE deal with begins to change.
Keep coming back.
Aloha Every one and thanks for the feed back to JFMN's post. I meditated and remember how I was and did it and what I did to change the things I could because earliest I reacted with my violent personality language, attitude, behavior and more. I didn't know and didn't know I didn't know so I had nothing but reactive tools and of course each situation came out more worse than intended or wished for by anyone involved or seemingly attached. I almost took my alcoholic/addicts life one evening trying only to be listened to and acknowledged and in the morning I could not believe what she looked like and that I could have done such damage and then again wrong again.
It took time and support and work and practice to learn a healthy mindset and then to keep it even to now. I had to replace all of the stuff I found that I was using that didn't work and change myself even when I didn't know what or how.
Our program had and still has all of the solutions for me so my mindset is our program...all of it. I love the slogan, "Keep on keeping on...this works when we work it. Again thanks. (((((Hugs)))))
You are right--it isn't so easy to change habits of a lifetime. I ditto all the great ala-ideas & stuff and especially learning/practicing JADE. I needed to go to lots of meetings to be strong enough not to cave in my boundaries & self care, had to do my daily readings /prayer/meditation with diligence and reason things out with members after meetings in the hall or with my sponsor-and like u are doing in writing to us. I often caved early on because my drug was the A's illusive love and approval--so when I gradually started filling that empty place with God/HP & self love/care, staying strong came more easily. One sponsor taught me to always say "I love you but..." when I set or upheld a boundary. I love you but (or and) I cannot continue this discussion...(pay your bills, support your self distruction in any way etc. etc.). When they keep hounding us, we can just repeat ourselves once and then stop, leave room, go for walk etc. We teach ppl how they can treat us and Al-anon gives them some much improved lessons.
HP will help you through all this - am praying for your strength.