This is along the lines of another poster who spoke of "the lies". My understanding of the disease of addiction is it will do anything to survive and if given a place to hide it will remain stagnated however active in thought and deed. That doesn't mean out right confrontation is a solution .. although it may given the situation .. I have never had success in confronting an active A especially when they were so stuck in the disease that it was it that ruled the mind, body and soul.
One of my best friends who I haven't met in person however we have spoken almost daily for 17 years on the phone or in some way now obviously text as that has changed over the years. Has slipped into the diseased thinking and the addiction has been live and is currently. She almost lost her battle by loosing her life and at this point 3 years ago no one actually knew how bad the drinking was however it was not an accident that her baby brother died of addiction and one of her sons is a recovering heroin addict who ironically is the one who brought up his mother's drinking problem while he was in rehab and of course no one believed him.
It's bad as angry as ever and in knowing what I know now it was easier to see the slipping and sliding of what was transpiring. My saving grace of our relationship is that she lives out of state. Unfortunately that is also part of the toxic part of our relationship to the disease is that she has the ability to spin her own truth to what is going on. As I have always said with my X it's the truth according to the XAH. Well it's true for her as well .. she sees her perception and her truth out of the situation and relays that to me and in her mind gets confirmation that she's also validated in the behavior.
I have seen the "episode" coming .. and it's not as hard to spot however I question myself a lot and have realized I need to trust my instincts regardless of the person .. that doesn't mean assume the bad that means look at the behavior happening because that will tell me what I need to know .. it is on me to trust that the behavior matches my instincts. It's been in major build mode for about a month now and I have seen a couple of peaks .. usually our phone calls are short and I try and make sure that everything is on text because I pick and choose what I address. Sometimes I confront her in my own way without saying I know you are drinking however in pointing out the obvious she will stop talking about that subject and I know what's really going on. I try not to shelter her since I know what the insanity is and I don't live there anymore.
This last time I did what I normally do which is reach out to her bff who stays in contact with the family however doesn't talk to her directly at this point and won't until she gets the help she needs .. she is aware of what's going on and I don't have a relationship with anyone else in the family so I do go to her friend. I had received a very odd voice mail which I am sooo glad I did not pick up Sunday night at midnight her time. So I KNEW something was not right already as I have to work Monday and no I don't want to deal with someone else's drama at that hour. I also knew I would talk to her later or so I thought .. Monday, I called and a text .. Tuesday .. it was her birthday so I text and FB'd her .. then Wednesday I called again only voiced my concerns as her FB posts over the weekend were wild. After which I realized that OMG .. I didn't listen to the voice mail .. doh .. that helps .. and in 20 seconds I got how crazy she was and in that moment she couldn't keep herself straight.
Come to find out the bottom semi fell out and as long as the trap door doesn't open she's in a rehab facility I don't think it will be long enough and that's IF she chooses to stay which she did not last time. She doesn't believe she belongs there .. she's not like those people and the reality is .. yes she is .. no more and no less than I belong in alanon based upon my own history. For now she's where she belongs regardless if she sees it or not.
My relationship with her will have to shift and this time instead of allowing her to be dishonest with me I am going to have the confrontational conversation of .. you are active in drinking .. and for now until you find your sobriety I need to limit my time talking to you because you get a false sense of validation that I can no longer participate in. I love you and for me I can't watch you kill yourself. I know it will probably shift our relationship to the negative and that will be difficult because I am prepared to let go of it completely .. and it will be super difficult however it is something that needs to happen at this point since .. nothing is changing. I did contact a mutual friend from our original group she is still in and let her know because I had already involved her by asking if it was just facebook she hadn't posted on (at the time I hadn't listened to the voice mail) and I let her know our friend is in rehab and that her time online is limited and rehab is a reality. I don't know if that's my business or not .. addiction exists in lies, secrets and darkness. I think it's important that I now let go of it .. and allow things to play out the way they will play out. There was no trash talking or gossip just this is up to you what you do with this information .. these are my concerns. I do think my friend will be angry and honestly .. so be it.
So it is what it is right now. Hopefully when she comes out she owns what went down and she can continue to move forward with her own recovery and I certainly want that for her. This is an educated woman .. a woman who owned her own business for 25+ years .. married for 35+ years, upper middle class even .. so addiction doesn't discriminate and within 3 years she's lost a great deal it would be heartbreaking to know she lost even more because it continued to rule her mind and her life. Sometimes that happens and sometimes that necessary to get to the other side.
Hugs S
hotrod said
Oct 4, 2018
((Serenity)) this disease is an equal opportunity destroyer . Sending prayers and positive thoughts along for you and your friend
Bo said
Oct 4, 2018
Best wishes to you SRUS, and for you dealing with this situation. I admire and respect the clarity, and even more the consistency, of how you are going to handle this situation. I can so relate to the "validation" aspect of this, and I so agree with you. I felt this constantly when dealing with my wife. It was difficult for me, early on, pre-recovery. After I found recovery...piece of cake. LOL.
However, early on, while I wouldn't "confront" her, or even say "you've been drinking" -- it go to the point where I couldn't even have the simplest of conversations or interactions with her, even after he having one drink, because it was taken as "approval" or "validation" or "a pass" or whatever you want to call it. While I wasn't going to state anything -- except my boundaries, if appropriate, or whatever the appropriate response was (I am sorry you feel that way) -- I did not want to make a statement that I was simply fine and OK with her drinking...primarily because of what it lead to, usually 19 out of 20 times. I found that when I said or did nothing -- it was taken as an endorsement. Now, I don't base myself on what she thinks, but I am not going to participate or engage in this entire dynamic.
Anyway, thanks for posting and all the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 4th of October 2018 09:45:54 PM
PosiesandPuppies said
Oct 4, 2018
(((((SerenityRUS))))))
I don't have personal ESH, but I admire your strength in this situation. Praying for your peace, and your friend's health... hopefully in recovery.
a4l said
Oct 5, 2018
I was sad to read about your friend and think Betty hit it on the head with "equal opportunity destroyer". There is always hope and sometimes we do just have to get out of hopes way. Sending you and your friend my prayers.
Bo said
Oct 5, 2018
SRUS, your post got me thinking more and more about this, and I read your post over again several times.
What is resonating with me is over and above, outside of, in addition to -- whatever you want to call it -- this is about you doing for you. This is about you taking action. You are re-defining, re-framing, expressing, shifting, communicating, changing, and so forth. That to me is critical. Crucial. You are not simply throwing your hands up in the air saying, "oh well, whatever, I am going to get out of the way, sit idly by and watch what happens, without doing a thing, and hoping that this all works out, she gets better, etc." I love the fact that you are IN ACTION...and because of it, I feel you are EMPOWERED. One of my mantras is when you are IN ACTION, you are IN POWER, and EMPOWERED.
Again, I so admire and respect the clarity and consistency you have here -- and you are being consistent in how you are going to handle this. This aspect to me is incredible. Wow. Thank you for your insight and for sharing this. You, and how you are handling this helped me get a handle on something I've been trying to get a handle on here, with me. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Iamhere said
Oct 5, 2018
(((S))) - what I hear from your share is that as we get 'better', we have a new level of tolerance (or intolerance) for that which used to be acceptable. I have distanced myself from a few people over the years after careful consideration of how the relationship was helping me or holding me back. What I have come to realize is that I tend to still at times want to 'be all' to others, and that's just no longer a healthy choice for me.
I have delivered very similar messages to others - I truly care about you and am concerned and it pains me to watch what's happening to you - and it has been met with resistance before as well as with acceptance. We never know what another is really feeling or thinking but we do know with this disease, the one with the problem is usually the last one to recognize it.
I have always left the door open when putting distance between myself and one I care about. I am clear in my messaging that I will support and be of service if they want help. This is a cautionary tale simply because an alcoholic considers 'help' way differently than I do, so boundaries are always necessary for me!
I hope you keep doing you, keep leaning in and growing - it looks awesome on you! (((Hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
Oct 8, 2018
Hi All,
I have not had any word from my friend since that Sunday voice mail. I know she can call me granted it wouldn't be a long call. She may honestly not remember calling me on Sunday night. So I have no idea if she has remained at the rehab center or not. No new information at this point and I have not reached out again because .. honestly .. I don't want to deal with this at the moment. It is truly to hard right now to think about it. I really do understand where she's at and I really do understand that she's not the same person I have been used to dealing with. I miss my friend. When this all went down a couple years ago I also lost my sponsor to illness (a year almost to the day I moved to Texas) and to have this happen to this friend as well was emotionally overwhelming .. I do not do well at relationships .. it's really not my gig and I am trying not to slam the door .. however I am not interested in other people's crazy. I have enough of my own and the boundaries are .. I accept where you are at .. however I need to protect my sanity and I also need not to participate in the crazy. Do no harm .. I say this often with my oldest and with this friend .. how do I foster a healthy relationship while doing no harm to myself or someone else.
The door on the relationship is not closed .. however it is partially shut so she can get better. I will be here as will her other friends as she heals .. no healing .. I don't know .. the definition of insanity .. doing the same thing expecting different results and unfortunately my friend is not the person I used to know. That's the hardest part to look at and there are so many other issues that I have heard second hand however I know that there is some truth to them as well. What is and isn't truth isn't really what is at hand for me .. what is and is not happening with behavior and that is truly the core for me is what I'm looking at .. A's talk .. I want to believe .. I really have to remember I am the "show me state". Neither here nor there kind of thing.
Anyway, there are a lot of positives going on my mom was going to come out for the holidays (just thanksgiving and honestly had some trepidation regarding it) and is not. She may come out after the new year which will be better for me less stress. I'm taking a week off at Thanksgiving. We will be seeing BF's parents I look forward to the break it's been a LONG time since I have taken that much time off. There is a neat thing out here that has to do with a hotel on ice .. LOL .. I have talked about this for a couple years now and we are going for my birthday AND I look forward to tickets I got for the Trans Siberian Orchestra in December. My poor BF .. LOL .. he talks a good talk however now that these things are becoming a reality he's checking his wallet a LOT .. LOL. I'm laughing about it. It's all good. He's actually having a life, making friends and having fun. All of these things are good things. I'm tickled to be part of that growth even if it means some growing pains .. lol.
Thank you for your support :)
Hugs S :)
Iamhere said
Oct 8, 2018
(((S))) - we used to say around here that the only thing constant in life is change! It's so true....and some is easier than other. You sound good and I hope you do enjoy your time off that you've got planned. Keep doing you and more will always be revealed! (((Hugs)))
andromeda said
Oct 8, 2018
Change sucks but it sounds like the changes your BF is making is all for the good, lol! Glad you are taking some time off and are looking forward to it. Hope all else is well with you and the family! Sending lots of hugs and support!
This is along the lines of another poster who spoke of "the lies". My understanding of the disease of addiction is it will do anything to survive and if given a place to hide it will remain stagnated however active in thought and deed. That doesn't mean out right confrontation is a solution .. although it may given the situation .. I have never had success in confronting an active A especially when they were so stuck in the disease that it was it that ruled the mind, body and soul.
One of my best friends who I haven't met in person however we have spoken almost daily for 17 years on the phone or in some way now obviously text as that has changed over the years. Has slipped into the diseased thinking and the addiction has been live and is currently. She almost lost her battle by loosing her life and at this point 3 years ago no one actually knew how bad the drinking was however it was not an accident that her baby brother died of addiction and one of her sons is a recovering heroin addict who ironically is the one who brought up his mother's drinking problem while he was in rehab and of course no one believed him.
It's bad as angry as ever and in knowing what I know now it was easier to see the slipping and sliding of what was transpiring. My saving grace of our relationship is that she lives out of state. Unfortunately that is also part of the toxic part of our relationship to the disease is that she has the ability to spin her own truth to what is going on. As I have always said with my X it's the truth according to the XAH. Well it's true for her as well .. she sees her perception and her truth out of the situation and relays that to me and in her mind gets confirmation that she's also validated in the behavior.
I have seen the "episode" coming .. and it's not as hard to spot however I question myself a lot and have realized I need to trust my instincts regardless of the person .. that doesn't mean assume the bad that means look at the behavior happening because that will tell me what I need to know .. it is on me to trust that the behavior matches my instincts. It's been in major build mode for about a month now and I have seen a couple of peaks .. usually our phone calls are short and I try and make sure that everything is on text because I pick and choose what I address. Sometimes I confront her in my own way without saying I know you are drinking however in pointing out the obvious she will stop talking about that subject and I know what's really going on. I try not to shelter her since I know what the insanity is and I don't live there anymore.
This last time I did what I normally do which is reach out to her bff who stays in contact with the family however doesn't talk to her directly at this point and won't until she gets the help she needs .. she is aware of what's going on and I don't have a relationship with anyone else in the family so I do go to her friend. I had received a very odd voice mail which I am sooo glad I did not pick up Sunday night at midnight her time. So I KNEW something was not right already as I have to work Monday and no I don't want to deal with someone else's drama at that hour. I also knew I would talk to her later or so I thought .. Monday, I called and a text .. Tuesday .. it was her birthday so I text and FB'd her .. then Wednesday I called again only voiced my concerns as her FB posts over the weekend were wild. After which I realized that OMG .. I didn't listen to the voice mail .. doh .. that helps .. and in 20 seconds I got how crazy she was and in that moment she couldn't keep herself straight.
Come to find out the bottom semi fell out and as long as the trap door doesn't open she's in a rehab facility I don't think it will be long enough and that's IF she chooses to stay which she did not last time. She doesn't believe she belongs there .. she's not like those people and the reality is .. yes she is .. no more and no less than I belong in alanon based upon my own history. For now she's where she belongs regardless if she sees it or not.
My relationship with her will have to shift and this time instead of allowing her to be dishonest with me I am going to have the confrontational conversation of .. you are active in drinking .. and for now until you find your sobriety I need to limit my time talking to you because you get a false sense of validation that I can no longer participate in. I love you and for me I can't watch you kill yourself. I know it will probably shift our relationship to the negative and that will be difficult because I am prepared to let go of it completely .. and it will be super difficult however it is something that needs to happen at this point since .. nothing is changing. I did contact a mutual friend from our original group she is still in and let her know because I had already involved her by asking if it was just facebook she hadn't posted on (at the time I hadn't listened to the voice mail) and I let her know our friend is in rehab and that her time online is limited and rehab is a reality. I don't know if that's my business or not .. addiction exists in lies, secrets and darkness. I think it's important that I now let go of it .. and allow things to play out the way they will play out. There was no trash talking or gossip just this is up to you what you do with this information .. these are my concerns. I do think my friend will be angry and honestly .. so be it.
So it is what it is right now. Hopefully when she comes out she owns what went down and she can continue to move forward with her own recovery and I certainly want that for her. This is an educated woman .. a woman who owned her own business for 25+ years .. married for 35+ years, upper middle class even .. so addiction doesn't discriminate and within 3 years she's lost a great deal it would be heartbreaking to know she lost even more because it continued to rule her mind and her life. Sometimes that happens and sometimes that necessary to get to the other side.
Hugs S
Best wishes to you SRUS, and for you dealing with this situation. I admire and respect the clarity, and even more the consistency, of how you are going to handle this situation. I can so relate to the "validation" aspect of this, and I so agree with you. I felt this constantly when dealing with my wife. It was difficult for me, early on, pre-recovery. After I found recovery...piece of cake. LOL.
However, early on, while I wouldn't "confront" her, or even say "you've been drinking" -- it go to the point where I couldn't even have the simplest of conversations or interactions with her, even after he having one drink, because it was taken as "approval" or "validation" or "a pass" or whatever you want to call it. While I wasn't going to state anything -- except my boundaries, if appropriate, or whatever the appropriate response was (I am sorry you feel that way) -- I did not want to make a statement that I was simply fine and OK with her drinking...primarily because of what it lead to, usually 19 out of 20 times. I found that when I said or did nothing -- it was taken as an endorsement. Now, I don't base myself on what she thinks, but I am not going to participate or engage in this entire dynamic.
Anyway, thanks for posting and all the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 4th of October 2018 09:45:54 PM
I don't have personal ESH, but I admire your strength in this situation. Praying for your peace, and your friend's health... hopefully in recovery.
What is resonating with me is over and above, outside of, in addition to -- whatever you want to call it -- this is about you doing for you. This is about you taking action. You are re-defining, re-framing, expressing, shifting, communicating, changing, and so forth. That to me is critical. Crucial. You are not simply throwing your hands up in the air saying, "oh well, whatever, I am going to get out of the way, sit idly by and watch what happens, without doing a thing, and hoping that this all works out, she gets better, etc." I love the fact that you are IN ACTION...and because of it, I feel you are EMPOWERED. One of my mantras is when you are IN ACTION, you are IN POWER, and EMPOWERED.
Again, I so admire and respect the clarity and consistency you have here -- and you are being consistent in how you are going to handle this. This aspect to me is incredible. Wow. Thank you for your insight and for sharing this. You, and how you are handling this helped me get a handle on something I've been trying to get a handle on here, with me. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I have delivered very similar messages to others - I truly care about you and am concerned and it pains me to watch what's happening to you - and it has been met with resistance before as well as with acceptance. We never know what another is really feeling or thinking but we do know with this disease, the one with the problem is usually the last one to recognize it.
I have always left the door open when putting distance between myself and one I care about. I am clear in my messaging that I will support and be of service if they want help. This is a cautionary tale simply because an alcoholic considers 'help' way differently than I do, so boundaries are always necessary for me!
I hope you keep doing you, keep leaning in and growing - it looks awesome on you! (((Hugs)))
I have not had any word from my friend since that Sunday voice mail. I know she can call me granted it wouldn't be a long call. She may honestly not remember calling me on Sunday night. So I have no idea if she has remained at the rehab center or not. No new information at this point and I have not reached out again because .. honestly .. I don't want to deal with this at the moment. It is truly to hard right now to think about it. I really do understand where she's at and I really do understand that she's not the same person I have been used to dealing with. I miss my friend. When this all went down a couple years ago I also lost my sponsor to illness (a year almost to the day I moved to Texas) and to have this happen to this friend as well was emotionally overwhelming .. I do not do well at relationships .. it's really not my gig and I am trying not to slam the door .. however I am not interested in other people's crazy. I have enough of my own and the boundaries are .. I accept where you are at .. however I need to protect my sanity and I also need not to participate in the crazy. Do no harm .. I say this often with my oldest and with this friend .. how do I foster a healthy relationship while doing no harm to myself or someone else.
The door on the relationship is not closed .. however it is partially shut so she can get better. I will be here as will her other friends as she heals .. no healing .. I don't know .. the definition of insanity .. doing the same thing expecting different results and unfortunately my friend is not the person I used to know. That's the hardest part to look at and there are so many other issues that I have heard second hand however I know that there is some truth to them as well. What is and isn't truth isn't really what is at hand for me .. what is and is not happening with behavior and that is truly the core for me is what I'm looking at .. A's talk .. I want to believe .. I really have to remember I am the "show me state". Neither here nor there kind of thing.
Anyway, there are a lot of positives going on my mom was going to come out for the holidays (just thanksgiving and honestly had some trepidation regarding it) and is not. She may come out after the new year which will be better for me less stress. I'm taking a week off at Thanksgiving. We will be seeing BF's parents I look forward to the break it's been a LONG time since I have taken that much time off. There is a neat thing out here that has to do with a hotel on ice .. LOL .. I have talked about this for a couple years now and we are going for my birthday AND I look forward to tickets I got for the Trans Siberian Orchestra in December. My poor BF .. LOL .. he talks a good talk however now that these things are becoming a reality he's checking his wallet a LOT .. LOL. I'm laughing about it. It's all good. He's actually having a life, making friends and having fun. All of these things are good things. I'm tickled to be part of that growth even if it means some growing pains .. lol.
Thank you for your support :)
Hugs S :)