My Picker may well be broken, or maybe it is exactly where it is supposed to be....
I have been single for some time, and struggling to find the right relationship for me - dating a fair amount, but difficult to find the right chemistry.... A month or so ago, I met this really upbeat lady (S) - fun, intelligent, positive and kind.... the only (small) red flag I saw was that she appeared to like her wine too much, but it didn't seem to be a problem.... As I started getting to know her, I found out that her deceased father was an alcoholic.... her Mom is seemingly dependent upon alcohol and may well be an alcoholic as well, and her brother has had a life long struggle with drugs, alcohol, and addictions in general... As we were talking about things, the overwhelming feeling was one of admiration, as it was remarkable to me that S was so "normal", despite a pretty overwhelming background and exposure to all of these addictions, etc.... We have seen each other a LOT during this short while, and we have grown very fond of each other.... There was wine involved with 'most' of our dates, not to excess, but it was still there.
This weekend she told me that she considers herself an alcoholic (first time she has admitted that out loud, to anyone - herself included), and that she drinks herself to sleep 'most nights', and it is not uncommon for her to polish off a bottle of wine (alone) once she is in her bedroom. She told me as somewhat of a confession, and perhaps by saying it out loud, she wants to start the long journey of recovery. I get the sense that she still believes that she can "manage" her drinking (gee, where have we ever heard that one before?), but time will tell....
I'm not at all sure where this is going, and/or whether or not she is going to choose recovery and/or whether I am going to stick around to be a support for her - but the experience certainly has me scratching my head. On the one hand, I feel that I "should" have seen this coming, as the signs were all certainly right there for me to see. On the other hand, I wonder if I might not have been (consciously or otherwise) almost seeking this type of person / situation, so that I can play wise savior once again. Not sure I really know the answer to that one as I write this out today.
I would welcome thoughts/perspectives from the MIP family
Tom
-- Edited by canadianguy on Monday 24th of September 2018 10:36:02 AM
hotrod said
Sep 24, 2018
((Tom)) I am so sorry that you have encountered this crazy disease once again in a person you care about. You have excellent alanon tools, know how to focus on yourself, know that you are powerless over this disease so that if you are inclined to continue with the relationship I support your choice. Keep sharing and taking care of yourself
JerryF said
Sep 24, 2018
Brother I agree with Betty and share your experience with mine being marrying my alcoholic/addict thinking I could make it better for her and us in time. It didn't work for she and I and eventually she and I found recovery at different times and different levels. The journey was insane and I came to learn it would and I didn't have the tools or strength for the endeavor. I have never met another partner of someone with the life threatening disease of alcoholism that has been able to find and enjoy happiness and freedom from the relationship.
I stayed and worked and supported as hard and much as I could until I could no longer and then left to collect what was left of me. God was beyond loving and kind for both she and I and it was only God's efforts that worked. Amazing that MIP is one of my HP's greatest tools and here you are. So now what? (((Hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
Sep 24, 2018
As my limited dating experience goes .. I know I noticed more and listened more to when people either talked about childhood issues and/or their relationship with both alcohol and drugs. I attracted those or was attracted to those who had those issues. I used to joke if there were a room of men and 2 were alcoholics or just addicts .. I could find them in an instant. It's noble you want to be supportive and I applaud you for that .. it sounds like a solid step 4 would be appropriate. Why do I pick the people I feel the need to fix .. or the "mood altering men" in my case. I stayed friends for a while with a man I would classify as an alcoholic he wasn't interested in getting help. That was a deal breaker for me I never verbalized we still chat from time to time and I don't envy the woman he's with as I see her doing the merry-go-round dance that can be with addiction. I think it's a great opportunity for some growth and healing. Big hugs .. relationships are not my specialty and I bumble around trying to figure it out. S :)
el-cee said
Sep 24, 2018
I hear you. I wonder if we send out a smell or a signal like come get me I'm an alanoner. I went on a few dates with someone who then told me he was an alcoholic. He went to aa on and off and it was in his family with his sister in AA too. I ended it there and then. I told him sorry but your disease makes me sick in the head. He totally got it and admitted basically he would lie and I would jump into the control fail seat. No way. I'm not doing that again. Right now I'm learning that my sickness of alcoholism leaks into life and relationships and also it's not only alcoholics who are unavailable and want to play the pretend game. My bf is totally unavailable in so many levels but so am I when it comes to him. Hopefully one day I will be in a full blown honest adult relationship . Wow can you imagine?
Bo said
Sep 24, 2018
Excellent story Tom, and thank you so very much for posting it.
While it is not addressed directly in Alanon -- yes, there is a condition where one's "picker" is "broken" -- and those two terms are relative. In this narrow focus, again, alanon doesn't directly address this, and that's OK. It does to the extent one can do the steps, do a 4th step, do Blueprint For Progress, etc. -- however, I don't know that any of those will directly address and resolve the picker and it being broken aspect.
So, what does this mean? Well, outside alanon, this has to do with the dynamic, the mental, psychological, sociological, etc., interaction between men and women. Dating, attraction, the development and framework of dialog, a relationship, and everything else -- well, sometimes it's not the picker that is broken per se, sometimes it's that the person and picker is not focused and has no clarity around what's good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy, and so on and so on. And yes, sometimes the picker is broken. Many people simply go all in and throw themselves into their feelings, and a relationship, just becomes someone likes them. Perhaps they don't stop and assess who that person is, what they bring to the table, etc. When I got divorced and was ready to start dating, I worked with my coach and developed a tremendous amount of clarity and focus as to what I wanted, was looking or, what I brought to the table, and what I wanted someone else to bring to the table. I went out on many first dates, and in 80 to 90% percent of the cases, I knew within 10 minutes whether or not this was a person I would want to see for a second date, whether they liked me or not. I had far fewer second dates. Only a few 3rd dates. And a couple of 4th dates, and I ended up in a relationship with 2 of the 3. So, it worked. But that's because I had a healthy and meaningful approach to take and follow.
Regardless, the picker thing can be broken. But it's not the picker only. It's the person who in the end is the picker. LOL.
-- Edited by Bo on Monday 24th of September 2018 02:15:11 PM
SerenityRUS said
Sep 24, 2018
Bo,
I would encourage you to listen to Mary Pearl as she does many talks about her "broken picker" and other alanon experiences. It actually is very addressed in Alanon or that's been my experience since history can tend to repeat as nothing changes then nothing changes.
She's a wonderful speaker very blunt, funny and horribly ironic in some ways .. a very nice pick me up. I think it was Mary Pearl .. lol .. might have been another longer timer who speaks of this.
S :)
Iamhere said
Sep 24, 2018
Tom - great to hear that you are putting yourself out there! I can speak as an A - we are typically very intelligent, charming when we want to be, funny, articulate, etc. We just have a disease that we did not ask for and most of the time, we are in huge denial over what is causing the issues in our lives.
It's interesting she's admitted that she's an alcoholic - my experience is this can be a cry for help. I have a new friend in my golf group who proudly calls herself a functional alcoholic. I tend to agree with her self-assessment and truly enjoy being around her in spite of the fact that she drinks every day, for most of the golf round. She's not completely out of control yet, but like my mother, having conversations later in the evening doesn't 'feel good for me'...she's a bit blitz and I never know what she might remember (or not). Her 28 year old son committed suicide last year and for now, this is how she's coping. We (those in recovery) know the dangers of this as a tool for grief/living but I can not sit here as a sober person of 30+ years and say I would be handling it better - I would hope so - but I am not walking a mile in her shoes.
For me, deep down, there is still a 'want' to fix others. I don't do labels so won't say I'm an empath or such, but it's there. I have old habits entrenched in my being that tells me it feels good to lead others to the light. I know better through recovery that service work is awesome for me to get out of self and move forward but there is a part of me that still wants to carry the person at times instead of the message.
I do not believe in the perfect relationship and have watched countless people in recovery look for 'that' since they believe they are cured (both sides - AA & Al-Anon). I watch them end up alone over and over again as their expectations are far removed from reality. I'm still married to my A so (am grateful) have not had to date for a long while. I will say that I met/married another in recovery and we both had adequate time (multiple years). I stayed sober; he did not. That doesn't make me a better person than him or him anything but a sick person. Why I fell in love with him had nothing to do with this disease and those reasons still exist today or I'd be long gone.
My sponsor has been very helpful for me when I find myself in relationships that I am not certain how healthy they are. It's not just intimate ones where I find my picker defective...I am working today to slow my roll, and live day to day and seek out healthier people to gel with - and I see great progress! Use all tools you can find to help you navigate each day and I do believe the answers will come! Great topic and sending you tons of positive energy for whatever path you take!
Bo said
Sep 24, 2018
SRUS, thanks.
I am intimately familiar with Mary, know her, have heard her speak, and shared a panel with her. She's wonderful. I've heard Tami, another well known alanon speaker/member speak on the broken picker topic, and another woman named Linda. There have been several long-time alanon members who speak on this, and it's fascinating stuff.
Personally, I don't view it -- as I said -- DIRECTLY addressed in alanon, vis a vis the literature I mentioned. However, also as I said, I do think it can and does get addressed when one is doing the steps, BFP, a 4th Step, etc. So, however it is addressed, direct, indirect, to what extent, and so on, we can just disagree. As far as the slogan, nothing changes if nothing changes, I couldn't agree more. It is core in my life, so you are certainly singing a tune to someone who sings the same tune, LOL.
I also believe there was a well known lounge singer in NYC -- blues -- named Mary Pearl. But that is too far back and goes beyond my vivid memory, LOL.
-- Edited by Bo on Monday 24th of September 2018 04:07:46 PM
tiredtonite said
Sep 24, 2018
Hi Tom,
It's a tough spot to be in if you're developing feelings for this woman. Sticking with the facts of the situation and leaving those emotions out, can sometimes make help with clarity when making a decision. In other words, if you've always had a hard and fast rule that you would never get involved with another alcoholic, I would ask myself if this is the last kind, fun, pretty, nice, upbeat female available in the world. Silly question huh? "To thine own self be true." Is the person worth making an exception for and what may come with that? I made such an exception and it has been working out for a long time. Like you, I was in recovery already many years. My bf was in recovery three months and it wasn't his first go around. I made a conscious choice to keep seeing him, keep my friends, my program and my life. If I'd had a broken picker, it wasn't any longer. We didn't have a relationship like two high schoolers seeing one another every day and when not texting constantly or talking on the phone. I think you know the kind of thing I mean.. like a couple of love addicts We really liked one another a lot but took things odaat. It takes time to know a person and unlike a non alcoholic, my bf was just beginning to know himself as a sober person with all the rawness of feeling feelings without the mask of alcohol. There was no way, Tom that I was willing to jump in with both feet in a relationship with someone who was transitioning in that way. In truth, he wasn't fully available even to himself. Had I been in a rush to be a committed relationship, I likely would have wished him well and moved on. He told me about his program when I met him and said he would understand if I didn't want to be involved with an alcoholic. He said his sobriety had to come first and the meeting that he attended. I felt he was sincere not posturing. I was not afraid to get involved with someone in recovery and I was not concerned after my past experiences about my ability to walk away. I won't live with active alcoholism. I just can't handle it and I know it. Today, after eight years it would break my heart but I would still walk away. Looking back, initially it did bring out some trust issues for me where he was concerned as well as preconceived notions about his alcoholism based on my past experiences with other alcoholics. Had I not been with an alcoholic or someone with behaviors that mimic alcoholism, I doubt that would have happened. I had to make amends to him for that, Tom. He's an individual who happens to be an alcoholic. He's not my history. I got lucky. He's the love of my life. He also works Alanon these days. If you're in a place of knowing that you will put yourself first and love yourself first, I think you can give anyone a chance. Just my opinion.. I don't think you have a broken picker. You just met someone who has wonderful qualities you say but happens to have the disease. Wishing you the best with working your Alanon program and the feelings involved. ((hugs)) TT
bud said
Sep 24, 2018
Hi Tom,
I'm not sure if anyone "should" see something coming, but rather that each day is a choice. I briefly dated a man that I came to learn always had a hard drink in his hand... so much fun and loved spending time with him until the disease stepped in and I chose to step out. Disappointing yes! Powerless yes, too.
A label of having a broken picker or not wouldn't be helpful for me even though I've been wondering about some similar things for myself. For the past few weeks, I've been digging deep about the commonalities I find attractive in men and how those make me feel. This week, I'll try and attach a "why" I might feel this way.... I do hope to eventually gain a deeper insight.
Keep using your tools and doing whatever the next right thing is for you.
andromeda said
Sep 24, 2018
Tom, I'm currently dating someone who likes to drink, especially wine. I've never seen him totally plastered or drunk even, but I do know he can drink and he likes to. We've been dating for about 5-6 weeks right now and what I'm doing is just observing. I'm taking a step back after all our interactions and assessing how I feel, am I comfortable with him, is he respectful, do I enjoy his company, etc? For now, all those answers and more are YES. My needs are being met, he's kind, he's generous, he treats me well, introduced me to a few friends in his circle, and makes me feel like I add something to his life both by his actions and his words.
So, for now, I watch and I wait and I observe. I have to admit that he's making it hard for me to be a bit detached but I do know I am on guard. I'm opening up slowly to him and I'm taking my time in general. If I'm honest I'm just at a point where I just want to enjoy someone's company, have a guy to go out to dinner with every so often, and spend time with someone who likes to just relax and have fun. This guy gets me so relaxed and I feel I can be totally myself around him. No pretenses. It's been very refreshing but I have no idea where it's going and I'm OK with that. It's one day at a time for everything in my life today.
You'll figure it out. You've got a good head on your shoulders. Hugs, my friend!
Bo said
Sep 24, 2018
In those "early days" of a relationship, I think it's important to be in that "just for today" mindset. Whatever it is you are thinking -- that's fine -- just for today. Yes, one day at a time. I personally, make sure I keep my head where my feet are. No projections, predictions, or anything of the like. If I focus on that, then regardless of what the other person is doing -- I can be me, and keep my head where my feet are. If however the other person is "impacting" me keeping to one day at a time, just for today, etc. -- then that is something I have to be very aware of. If the person is making hard for me to detach (when needed), then I have to focus on that and make sure I can detach when I need to, when it's best and healthy for me.
Regarding the alcohol element, first, I am aware of it. Very much so. I am not prejudiced, or hyper or uber-sensitive. I drink. I don't have to or need to. I worked in bars/clubs when I was younger, and eventually, I owned a club as well. So, I've been around it. I know it. I get it. However, when it comes to a personal relationship, after learning what I've learned, experiencing what I experienced, etc. -- I have to be aware. For my own health and well-being. Do you always know the difference between someone who "likes" to drink, as opposed to someone who "might" have a problem or does have a problem? Early on, perhaps not. But as time goes on, if you are going to be completely open and honest with yourself -- and not let your emotions supersede your intellect, or let the other person's behavior, how much they like you, their behavior, etc., sway or impact your intellect -- then yes, I do think one can know the difference. For me, it's obvious. But that's just me. Recognizing "the role" alcohol plays in a person's life can be easy to assess -- however, there are many reasons why we may not want to see the truth. Hence, that's where the trouble begins -- denial, rationalization, emotions, justification, and so on. If a person likes us, we are having fun, we tend to emotionally go "all in" and convince ourselves. Yet, we don't have to.
Regardless -- excellent thread, and thank you to everyone for sharing, and for their experience and perspectives.
Bo said
Sep 25, 2018
Sometimes...it might not be a case of the picker being broke...perhaps it might be the person not wanting to listen to what the picker is telling them...perhaps it might be the person not wanting to really look at what the picker is seeing and showing them...
In my experience, there is very often an element of -- denial, justification, rationalization, vacillation, and so on.
This happens to me a lot in personal relationships. Not business. Not friends. Matters of the heart and that cliche. It's obvious why. I see this very, very often with people -- life, alanon, marriages with addiction, etc.
JerryF said
Sep 25, 2018
Wow Tom...what a post and thread. I read and re-read and read some more holding up what I read to the light of my recovery experiences including opening up my AA Big Book this morning and absolutely what is confirmed is the description of our disease being "Cunning, Powerful and Baffling". I remember only once...once getting the idea that "Now I got it" meaning I knew the disease, what it was and wasn't and what it did and didn't do only in a short period of time arriving at the truth that I still didn't know and now I knew I didn't know.
My picker isn't broken...often it is still under the influence of the habit of my disease. I need to have the Al-Anon and AA and MIP families to come to and listen, listen, listen before practice, practice, practice.
Mahalo for your support. ((((Hugs))))
2HP said
Sep 25, 2018
I love how you remain open to her being perfect for where you are, that is very, very inspiring.
Your post reminds me of a very tough sponsor I had long ago, who said (...and I hated it.... )
"If you want the ideal relationship... or the ideal career... or any other ideal of this world... seek to improve conscious contact first. Then all else will be added unto you."
Also known as "Don't put the cart ahead of the horse," and
"First Things First."
I thought life was way too short for me to actually follow any of that. Today I know it does not take as long as one would think... it only takes true sincerity. An omnipresent Higher Power knows our hearts. And is more eager than ANYONE to bring us true happiness.
When I met my current partner (a few years after divorce from AH) I told him he would always take a back seat to my ambition of knowing God, that I meditate when I wake up and again before I go to sleep at night, and that will never ever change.
Our relationship is going on many years now. It is the easiest relationship I have ever been in and still nothing is perfect. I no longer expect perfection because if we weren't challenged, how would we ever grow?
My ESH is, our picker just needs to pick the right thing. Then the lovely details appear all on their own. The program is that simple.
and that difficult. lol
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 26th of September 2018 10:38:50 AM
Aline said
Sep 25, 2018
Thanks for sharing, Tom, I'm grateful for this thread and all the ESH. Haven't been dating since breaking up with my ex-abf, and hadn't had anything close to a serious relationship before him, so... All that stuff is probably still ahead of me. Put God first... Love 2HP's share... I too have my recovery ritual so to speak in the morning and in the evening... That's something that helps me a lot, and I appreciate the affirmation that its okay to put my relationship with HP first... Something for me for the future... I struggle big time with putting my needs in a priority place, I think, mostly because of my old and overwhelming fear of rejection... I have been managing rather well with this lately, especially since I broke up contact with the ex. Single, living on my own. Doing ok. Dating actually seems like a rather daunting prospect for me right now. I'll finish going through the steps and then I'll start thinking about that...
Jozie said
Sep 26, 2018
(((Tom))) Your Title Just Brought me Right in...lol I Love it ;)
I haven't had a Chance to Read ALL the ESH Yet! As I'm to be Working "Oops" :D
I have been on and off this Board for 10 years now, and I've followed your Journey as Many have, and I'm with Ms. Betty also, Your Program will not let you down... You Share so Much ESH with all, and I Just know HP will guide you & your "Picker"...lol
I haven't dated in Over 20 yrs, so that I am Clueless too, but I Can tell you Before I Met my Husband, My Mom would Always Joke that I had a Tattoo on my Forehead that only others could read that Said "If your An A$$. Your For Me!" but after being in this program and looking back, it was more "If your an Alcoholic... I Will Find You!"
If I Learned Nothing more in this Program, it is that we have all been thru Something... Some Linked to Addictions, Abuse, many Ugly things, but for this Lady friend to admit these things, out loud to a Semi-Stranger had to take Guts, and to admit something so Personal knowing you could have Tucked & Run... WOW... Courageous in my Eyes....
I Would say, if She makes you happy, Be Happy... Because if I am Living One Day at a Time, I have No Time to Look to the Future to see what "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" and I know that HP Will guide me where I'm Meant to be...
Thanks for Your Share, again... Your Title Just Brought it home ;) Please Take what you like and Leave the Rest...
My Picker may well be broken, or maybe it is exactly where it is supposed to be....
I have been single for some time, and struggling to find the right relationship for me - dating a fair amount, but difficult to find the right chemistry.... A month or so ago, I met this really upbeat lady (S) - fun, intelligent, positive and kind.... the only (small) red flag I saw was that she appeared to like her wine too much, but it didn't seem to be a problem.... As I started getting to know her, I found out that her deceased father was an alcoholic.... her Mom is seemingly dependent upon alcohol and may well be an alcoholic as well, and her brother has had a life long struggle with drugs, alcohol, and addictions in general... As we were talking about things, the overwhelming feeling was one of admiration, as it was remarkable to me that S was so "normal", despite a pretty overwhelming background and exposure to all of these addictions, etc.... We have seen each other a LOT during this short while, and we have grown very fond of each other.... There was wine involved with 'most' of our dates, not to excess, but it was still there.
This weekend she told me that she considers herself an alcoholic (first time she has admitted that out loud, to anyone - herself included), and that she drinks herself to sleep 'most nights', and it is not uncommon for her to polish off a bottle of wine (alone) once she is in her bedroom. She told me as somewhat of a confession, and perhaps by saying it out loud, she wants to start the long journey of recovery. I get the sense that she still believes that she can "manage" her drinking (gee, where have we ever heard that one before?), but time will tell....
I'm not at all sure where this is going, and/or whether or not she is going to choose recovery and/or whether I am going to stick around to be a support for her - but the experience certainly has me scratching my head. On the one hand, I feel that I "should" have seen this coming, as the signs were all certainly right there for me to see. On the other hand, I wonder if I might not have been (consciously or otherwise) almost seeking this type of person / situation, so that I can play wise savior once again. Not sure I really know the answer to that one as I write this out today.
I would welcome thoughts/perspectives from the MIP family
Tom
-- Edited by canadianguy on Monday 24th of September 2018 10:36:02 AM
((Tom)) I am so sorry that you have encountered this crazy disease once again in a person you care about. You have excellent alanon tools, know how to focus on yourself, know that you are powerless over this disease so that if you are inclined to continue with the relationship I support your choice. Keep sharing and taking care of yourself
Brother I agree with Betty and share your experience with mine being marrying my alcoholic/addict thinking I could make it better for her and us in time. It didn't work for she and I and eventually she and I found recovery at different times and different levels. The journey was insane and I came to learn it would and I didn't have the tools or strength for the endeavor. I have never met another partner of someone with the life threatening disease of alcoholism that has been able to find and enjoy happiness and freedom from the relationship.
I stayed and worked and supported as hard and much as I could until I could no longer and then left to collect what was left of me. God was beyond loving and kind for both she and I and it was only God's efforts that worked. Amazing that MIP is one of my HP's greatest tools and here you are. So now what? (((Hugs)))
Excellent story Tom, and thank you so very much for posting it.
While it is not addressed directly in Alanon -- yes, there is a condition where one's "picker" is "broken" -- and those two terms are relative. In this narrow focus, again, alanon doesn't directly address this, and that's OK. It does to the extent one can do the steps, do a 4th step, do Blueprint For Progress, etc. -- however, I don't know that any of those will directly address and resolve the picker and it being broken aspect.
So, what does this mean? Well, outside alanon, this has to do with the dynamic, the mental, psychological, sociological, etc., interaction between men and women. Dating, attraction, the development and framework of dialog, a relationship, and everything else -- well, sometimes it's not the picker that is broken per se, sometimes it's that the person and picker is not focused and has no clarity around what's good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy, and so on and so on. And yes, sometimes the picker is broken. Many people simply go all in and throw themselves into their feelings, and a relationship, just becomes someone likes them. Perhaps they don't stop and assess who that person is, what they bring to the table, etc. When I got divorced and was ready to start dating, I worked with my coach and developed a tremendous amount of clarity and focus as to what I wanted, was looking or, what I brought to the table, and what I wanted someone else to bring to the table. I went out on many first dates, and in 80 to 90% percent of the cases, I knew within 10 minutes whether or not this was a person I would want to see for a second date, whether they liked me or not. I had far fewer second dates. Only a few 3rd dates. And a couple of 4th dates, and I ended up in a relationship with 2 of the 3. So, it worked. But that's because I had a healthy and meaningful approach to take and follow.
Regardless, the picker thing can be broken. But it's not the picker only. It's the person who in the end is the picker. LOL.
-- Edited by Bo on Monday 24th of September 2018 02:15:11 PM
I would encourage you to listen to Mary Pearl as she does many talks about her "broken picker" and other alanon experiences. It actually is very addressed in Alanon or that's been my experience since history can tend to repeat as nothing changes then nothing changes.
She's a wonderful speaker very blunt, funny and horribly ironic in some ways .. a very nice pick me up. I think it was Mary Pearl .. lol .. might have been another longer timer who speaks of this.
S :)
It's interesting she's admitted that she's an alcoholic - my experience is this can be a cry for help. I have a new friend in my golf group who proudly calls herself a functional alcoholic. I tend to agree with her self-assessment and truly enjoy being around her in spite of the fact that she drinks every day, for most of the golf round. She's not completely out of control yet, but like my mother, having conversations later in the evening doesn't 'feel good for me'...she's a bit blitz and I never know what she might remember (or not). Her 28 year old son committed suicide last year and for now, this is how she's coping. We (those in recovery) know the dangers of this as a tool for grief/living but I can not sit here as a sober person of 30+ years and say I would be handling it better - I would hope so - but I am not walking a mile in her shoes.
For me, deep down, there is still a 'want' to fix others. I don't do labels so won't say I'm an empath or such, but it's there. I have old habits entrenched in my being that tells me it feels good to lead others to the light. I know better through recovery that service work is awesome for me to get out of self and move forward but there is a part of me that still wants to carry the person at times instead of the message.
I do not believe in the perfect relationship and have watched countless people in recovery look for 'that' since they believe they are cured (both sides - AA & Al-Anon). I watch them end up alone over and over again as their expectations are far removed from reality. I'm still married to my A so (am grateful) have not had to date for a long while. I will say that I met/married another in recovery and we both had adequate time (multiple years). I stayed sober; he did not. That doesn't make me a better person than him or him anything but a sick person. Why I fell in love with him had nothing to do with this disease and those reasons still exist today or I'd be long gone.
My sponsor has been very helpful for me when I find myself in relationships that I am not certain how healthy they are. It's not just intimate ones where I find my picker defective...I am working today to slow my roll, and live day to day and seek out healthier people to gel with - and I see great progress! Use all tools you can find to help you navigate each day and I do believe the answers will come! Great topic and sending you tons of positive energy for whatever path you take!
SRUS, thanks.
I am intimately familiar with Mary, know her, have heard her speak, and shared a panel with her. She's wonderful. I've heard Tami, another well known alanon speaker/member speak on the broken picker topic, and another woman named Linda. There have been several long-time alanon members who speak on this, and it's fascinating stuff.
Personally, I don't view it -- as I said -- DIRECTLY addressed in alanon, vis a vis the literature I mentioned. However, also as I said, I do think it can and does get addressed when one is doing the steps, BFP, a 4th Step, etc. So, however it is addressed, direct, indirect, to what extent, and so on, we can just disagree. As far as the slogan, nothing changes if nothing changes, I couldn't agree more. It is core in my life, so you are certainly singing a tune to someone who sings the same tune, LOL.
I also believe there was a well known lounge singer in NYC -- blues -- named Mary Pearl. But that is too far back and goes beyond my vivid memory, LOL.
-- Edited by Bo on Monday 24th of September 2018 04:07:46 PM
Hi Tom,
It's a tough spot to be in if you're developing feelings for this woman. Sticking with the facts of the situation and leaving those emotions out, can sometimes make help with clarity when making a decision. In other words, if you've always had a hard and fast rule that you would never get involved with another alcoholic, I would ask myself if this is the last kind, fun, pretty, nice, upbeat female available in the world. Silly question huh? "To thine own self be true." Is the person worth making an exception for and what may come with that? I made such an exception and it has been working out for a long time. Like you, I was in recovery already many years. My bf was in recovery three months and it wasn't his first go around. I made a conscious choice to keep seeing him, keep my friends, my program and my life. If I'd had a broken picker, it wasn't any longer. We didn't have a relationship like two high schoolers seeing one another every day and when not texting constantly or talking on the phone. I think you know the kind of thing I mean.. like a couple of love addicts
We really liked one another a lot but took things odaat. It takes time to know a person and unlike a non alcoholic, my bf was just beginning to know himself as a sober person with all the rawness of feeling feelings without the mask of alcohol. There was no way, Tom that I was willing to jump in with both feet in a relationship with someone who was transitioning in that way. In truth, he wasn't fully available even to himself. Had I been in a rush to be a committed relationship, I likely would have wished him well and moved on. He told me about his program when I met him and said he would understand if I didn't want to be involved with an alcoholic. He said his sobriety had to come first and the meeting that he attended. I felt he was sincere not posturing. I was not afraid to get involved with someone in recovery and I was not concerned after my past experiences about my ability to walk away. I won't live with active alcoholism. I just can't handle it and I know it. Today, after eight years it would break my heart but I would still walk away. Looking back, initially it did bring out some trust issues for me where he was concerned as well as preconceived notions about his alcoholism based on my past experiences with other alcoholics. Had I not been with an alcoholic or someone with behaviors that mimic alcoholism, I doubt that would have happened. I had to make amends to him for that, Tom. He's an individual who happens to be an alcoholic. He's not my history. I got lucky. He's the love of my life. He also works Alanon these days. If you're in a place of knowing that you will put yourself first and love yourself first, I think you can give anyone a chance. Just my opinion.. I don't think you have a broken picker. You just met someone who has wonderful qualities you say but happens to have the disease. Wishing you the best with working your Alanon program and the feelings involved. ((hugs)) TT
I'm not sure if anyone "should" see something coming, but rather that each day is a choice. I briefly dated a man that I came to learn always had a hard drink in his hand... so much fun and loved spending time with him until the disease stepped in and I chose to step out. Disappointing yes! Powerless yes, too.
A label of having a broken picker or not wouldn't be helpful for me even though I've been wondering about some similar things for myself. For the past few weeks, I've been digging deep about the commonalities I find attractive in men and how those make me feel. This week, I'll try and attach a "why" I might feel this way.... I do hope to eventually gain a deeper insight.
Keep using your tools and doing whatever the next right thing is for you.
So, for now, I watch and I wait and I observe. I have to admit that he's making it hard for me to be a bit detached but I do know I am on guard. I'm opening up slowly to him and I'm taking my time in general. If I'm honest I'm just at a point where I just want to enjoy someone's company, have a guy to go out to dinner with every so often, and spend time with someone who likes to just relax and have fun. This guy gets me so relaxed and I feel I can be totally myself around him. No pretenses. It's been very refreshing but I have no idea where it's going and I'm OK with that. It's one day at a time for everything in my life today.
You'll figure it out. You've got a good head on your shoulders. Hugs, my friend!
Regarding the alcohol element, first, I am aware of it. Very much so. I am not prejudiced, or hyper or uber-sensitive. I drink. I don't have to or need to. I worked in bars/clubs when I was younger, and eventually, I owned a club as well. So, I've been around it. I know it. I get it. However, when it comes to a personal relationship, after learning what I've learned, experiencing what I experienced, etc. -- I have to be aware. For my own health and well-being. Do you always know the difference between someone who "likes" to drink, as opposed to someone who "might" have a problem or does have a problem? Early on, perhaps not. But as time goes on, if you are going to be completely open and honest with yourself -- and not let your emotions supersede your intellect, or let the other person's behavior, how much they like you, their behavior, etc., sway or impact your intellect -- then yes, I do think one can know the difference. For me, it's obvious. But that's just me. Recognizing "the role" alcohol plays in a person's life can be easy to assess -- however, there are many reasons why we may not want to see the truth. Hence, that's where the trouble begins -- denial, rationalization, emotions, justification, and so on. If a person likes us, we are having fun, we tend to emotionally go "all in" and convince ourselves. Yet, we don't have to.
Regardless -- excellent thread, and thank you to everyone for sharing, and for their experience and perspectives.
In my experience, there is very often an element of -- denial, justification, rationalization, vacillation, and so on.
This happens to me a lot in personal relationships. Not business. Not friends. Matters of the heart and that cliche. It's obvious why. I see this very, very often with people -- life, alanon, marriages with addiction, etc.
Wow Tom...what a post and thread. I read and re-read and read some more holding up what I read to the light of my recovery experiences including opening up my AA Big Book this morning and absolutely what is confirmed is the description of our disease being "Cunning, Powerful and Baffling". I remember only once...once getting the idea that "Now I got it" meaning I knew the disease, what it was and wasn't and what it did and didn't do only in a short period of time arriving at the truth that I still didn't know and now I knew I didn't know.
My picker isn't broken...often it is still under the influence of the habit of my disease. I need to have the Al-Anon and AA and MIP families to come to and listen, listen, listen before practice, practice, practice.
Mahalo for your support. ((((Hugs))))
I love how you remain open to her being perfect for where you are, that is very, very inspiring.
Your post reminds me of a very tough sponsor I had long ago, who said (...and I hated it.... )
"If you want the ideal relationship... or the ideal career... or any other ideal of this world... seek to improve conscious contact first. Then all else will be added unto you."
Also known as "Don't put the cart ahead of the horse," and
"First Things First."
I thought life was way too short for me to actually follow any of that. Today I know it does not take as long as one would think... it only takes true sincerity. An omnipresent Higher Power knows our hearts. And is more eager than ANYONE to bring us true happiness.
When I met my current partner (a few years after divorce from AH) I told him he would always take a back seat to my ambition of knowing God, that I meditate when I wake up and again before I go to sleep at night, and that will never ever change.
Our relationship is going on many years now. It is the easiest relationship I have ever been in and still nothing is perfect. I no longer expect perfection because if we weren't challenged, how would we ever grow?
My ESH is, our picker just needs to pick the right thing. Then the lovely details appear all on their own. The program is that simple.
and that difficult. lol
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 26th of September 2018 10:38:50 AM
I haven't had a Chance to Read ALL the ESH Yet! As I'm to be Working "Oops" :D
I have been on and off this Board for 10 years now, and I've followed your Journey as Many have, and I'm with Ms. Betty also, Your Program will not let you down... You Share so Much ESH with all, and I Just know HP will guide you & your "Picker"...lol
I haven't dated in Over 20 yrs, so that I am Clueless too, but I Can tell you Before I Met my Husband, My Mom would Always Joke that I had a Tattoo on my Forehead that only others could read that Said "If your An A$$. Your For Me!" but after being in this program and looking back, it was more "If your an Alcoholic... I Will Find You!"
If I Learned Nothing more in this Program, it is that we have all been thru Something... Some Linked to Addictions, Abuse, many Ugly things, but for this Lady friend to admit these things, out loud to a Semi-Stranger had to take Guts, and to admit something so Personal knowing you could have Tucked & Run... WOW... Courageous in my Eyes....
I Would say, if She makes you happy, Be Happy... Because if I am Living One Day at a Time, I have No Time to Look to the Future to see what "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" and I know that HP Will guide me where I'm Meant to be...
Thanks for Your Share, again... Your Title Just Brought it home ;) Please Take what you like and Leave the Rest...
In Support
Jozie