I would really appreciate your ESH on something which has happened as I am trying to process my response but feeling I am going round in circles.
So in the short term we (four children and me) are still living at home with AH who has relapsed and is not in active recovery. I have boundaries in place for me and the children. If husband drinks or does something unacceptable, I state what I see to be unacceptable behaviour and simply leave the room and go and do something nice with the children. I don't always name the behaviour, but sometimes just leave the room.
Tonight I had spent a long time cooking a nice dinner and all the children were hungry. We sat down to eat and husband, who has been drinking starting making unacceptable comments to one of the older children, trying to pick a verbal fight with her. In normal circumstances I would have left the room with the children. However, in that moment it didn't seem feasible to decant all the children and the meal to one of the bedrooms (we don't have any other downstairs rooms to go to). So instead I asked him calmly to stop and ignored the behaviour and tried to get the conversation to something else with the children. He stormed off. I don't feel that I handled it the right way, hence would appreciate your ESH.
A second question revolves around the ongoing unacceptable behaviours. The next morning, husband has generally completely forgotten what has happened the night before. I can't and don't want to pretend that everything is fine, so I generally state again what happened and what I didn't find acceptable about it. I don't say it meanly, but stick to facts ...you did this (behaviour), I felt.... so I...(left the room - for example). Husband either denies it or says sorry and we start all over again. However, I am questioning my motives for telling him. I just want him to be aware of what happened. I don't expect him to do anything different and I am not trying to control him. I want him to know that I am not feeling everything is fine and dandy, because I am feeling hurt. What do others do? I am starting to feel that everything I thought I had learned in the last 1.5 years alanon wise is all wrong and that I am back at square one again with my own behaviour.
Thank you to any one for their ESH so I can try and process this for myself.
serenity47 said
Sep 2, 2018
It sounds to me like you are doing well in setting some boundaries with your husband and letting go of any expectations of change in him. When it comes to children, older or not , I always am on the side of protecting the children. It isn't always feasible to leave the room, it is only one option. If he chooses to storm off ok.... that's his choice. At least he is no longer present picking on the kids.
For me, I try to say only one time to my qualifier why I am upset and one time only otherwise it turns into nagging. I then work on my own program and let it go. Having any expectations of them is simply setting myself up for more dissapointment
Bo said
Sep 2, 2018
It sounds like your specific two questions are -- regarding the first situation, and then the second vis a vis what do others do? Well, I can only share my experience and what I've done. To preface that, I think it's hard for people who haven't been in your specific situation AND who don't know your story, to really guide or advise you with practical application, and even more important, effective ideas. However, based upon experience, is where our program excels.
Regarding the dinner scenario -- I think you handled it fine. You were respectful, polite, non-confrontational and you weren't instigating. That's good. You were presented with a no win situation. Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. There's plenty of dinners ahead of you, almost every night, LOL. Personally, I think it's a good thing when the alcoholic storms off. For many reasons, beyond the scope of this post/topic. Don't allow his reaction and behavior to impact you and your thinking. If the alcoholic is mad at you -- then it means you are probably doing something right.
The second issue -- the "ongoing unacceptable behaviours" as you called them...there's a bigger issue here. The word "ongoing" -- what are you doing about that? If detachment is not a long-term solution, and boundaries aren't a long-term solution...then what is? That's a question for you to think about, and talk to your sponsor about. I certainly understand the "can't and don't want to pretend that everything is fine" aspect. I understand oh so well. I lived with that for years. My question has always been -- is stating again what happened, stating what I find unacceptable, etc. -- to what end? Of course we don't say it mean. We say what we mean, mean what we say and we don't say it mean. I always state facts. However, there are two issues here. First, any time you say "you did" or "you said" -- it's pointing the finger. Keep it in the I. Think along the lines of one minute manager. Second, again, to what end? My wife denied it. My wife said she was sorry. And it happened again. And again. And again. I too question the motives in telling. Even if they are sincere -- to what end? When someone wants the alcoholic to be aware -- what's really behind that? Not control, but is it wanting to be heard? Wanting to right? Wanting to go on record? Wanting to infer or request that it doesn't happen again? Whatever it is -- it is trying to get the alcoholic to change, do what we want, etc. There are other ways to accomplish this. What are they? Well, you said this is "ongoing" -- so -- nothing changes if nothing changes. What other changes can you make? If you don't expect him to do anything different...is this the way you want to continue living? Talk to your sponsor. You can let him know everything is not fine and dandy by you detaching more, and establishing more boundaries. The next morning -- perhaps detaching a bit more. Perhaps not be so quick to be in a discussion or conversation. I used to focus on what I needed to do to start my day, and I explained to my wife that I wasn't going to "get into a discussion" with her based upon what happened last night. When questioned, I said "I can't get into this with you right now.
Wanting the alcoholic to know I am hurt -- was me delivering a message. It was me wanting the alcoholic to understand, and change. I stopped doing that. I had to find other ways to NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. I won't "negotiate" or "dance" with the alcoholic. That is part of my problem -- the expectation that if the alcoholic knows my feelings are hurt, they will stop doing it. Shame on me. LOL.
Be that as it may, I don't think this is an "acting" change or "words" that solve the problem. I think this is reflective of a much larger discussion -- one that starts with complete and total acceptance, surrender, letting go, and more change in oneself. I also think that detachment and boundaries aren't designed to make the unbearable bearable. They aren't designed to make the unacceptable acceptable. They are there to protect me, in the moment, so that I can get better and make healthy decisions, and so that I can start to make my life better.
bud said
Sep 2, 2018
((Bettertomorrow)) I'm so sorry you have this. From my experience, effective boundaries would be for you. He doesn't have to like the boundaries and I'd think it difficult to create boundaries that everyone likes... so, it would appear that you did do things well the behavior stopped, you stayed on your side of the street, and you kept you and your children safe. On some level, even though his exit had the flair of drama, it may have been helpful that he left the room rather than continue his venue.
For the second part, I have found in my experience, that I can state things once, but not to necessarily expect the other person to engage in a conversation. When I was with my active exAH, he'd do things like this all the time. He didn't apologize. Perhaps, deep down he was too angry and ashamed to address what had happened.
Over the years, Alanon helps me take the time to examine my own thoughts as a way to develop a better skill set. I remember feeling dismissed when things like that happened... or can get triggered if someone refuses to acknowledge me. A good question perhaps to think about with your sponsor is why the need to bring up what happened and how it made you feel? What would make the situation feel resolved or have closure? Is there any way to give this resolve to yourself without relying on his response or lack of one?
mamalioness said
Sep 2, 2018
I think you handled the dinner situation very well...NOT engaging the alcoholic who is being confrontational is key...also, deflecting off the child was a good move....however you know this is going to happen, maybe not exact, but its going to keep happening....I would, if this were me, get the kids into alateen meets (usually they go along with the al-anon meets) and positive reinforcement to the kids, in making sure lots of praise, love, hugs, etc. are given
I can't tell you what to do, I don't know your situation, but I was very protective of my girls...THAT is where I drew the line...I would deflect...remove us.....and he never dared to put his hands on them because I would take off his head and then get out, press charges, etc., but that didn't happen thank goodness....as long as there is no risk of physical abuse (then its a situation where you/kids are in real danger) but mouthing off, can be deflected...like I would say, and I remember this...first I would pause...even back then, I kinda knew NOT to engage, give him anything to get "fired up" over..like he would say something and I would say "gee thats interesting, I'll think about that" or I remember saying "you might have a point here" or "i'm sorry you feel that way" I guess my "training at home" paid off because engaging a drunk was never a win situation....deflect...detach..of course b4 recovery, i internalized my "cool" and I stewed and obsessed and the anger just simmered in me....if hes just "mouthy" , just "dodge" and when he's sober IF you all talk about it, yea, I would say how the words make me feel and that I'm not going to sit there and be verbally abused....my 1st Ex AH never wanted to talk about what he did or said....my 2nd Ex AH did and we would sit and chat, but he rarely got confrontational or abusive....his "thing" was that I ignored him and he was sad...well, who the hell wants to be cozy with a drunk??? LOL I would tell him that "yea, I love you but when U R drunk, I can't get into any affection because ................" adn I would tell him how i felt.....
unacceptable behavior is anything that is against my boundaries, morals, ethics, serenity, my truth and safety (mental and physical) we can disagree, but keep it civil, kind and respectful is what I convey to any relationship I have...
IN SUPPORT
Bettertomorrow said
Sep 3, 2018
serenity47, Bo, bud and mamalioness - thankyou all so much for your responses. It is so heartwarming and supportive for me - so thank you.
I am seeing my sponsor on Sunday, but this has given me just what I need to start thinking deeper about it all in readiness for that meeting.
I accept that I did the best I could with the dinner situation last night and as you say, there are many more dinners to come! I like the sound of your ESHs and would like to try detaching some more today. I don't need to verbally bring it up again - it will achieve nothing for my own serenity and I have a gut feeling that my reason to bring it up again may well be due to a hidden desire to elicit a change in him, which I know is the wrong approach.
The bigger question is around the ongoing unacceptable behaviours. Again I need to question my own motives. In the 'longer term' I know that I don't want to live my life based on detachment and boundaries. I think I have allowed myself to be seduced by AHs first attempt at sobriety, which when it worked for awhile was good. Logically I understand that this disease is progressive and it is my own distorted thinking to hope / expect that he will seek sobriety. Bo - I read your response to someone else on a different thread and it is true for me - I accept things at a logical level, but I need to work on the more innate and visceral acceptance and surrender of 'control'. I guess it's back to step 1 for me!
I am in the meantime looking after myself and achieving emotional and financial freedom, so that I feel better placed to increase my choices beyond detach and boundaries in the moment.
Once again - thank you all for your support.
bud said
Sep 3, 2018
Sounds like you're taking great steps to take good care of yourself. I'm still practicing saying things once and letting go I lean into Alanon when I have trouble letting go.
Your comment regarding not wanting to live a life based on detachment and boundaries struck a chord. I felt that way for many years. Ironically, now all I want is to be able to detach better and have more boundaries, as I know that either with or without the active A, these skills are awesome for me to live life more fully and peacefully. One day at a time on each of our journeys...
el-cee said
Sep 3, 2018
I think you handled it perfectly to be honest. You showed your kids an excellent example of not accepting unacceptable behaviour and your kids can take this message on in life, what a gift you gave them.
Him, he showed your children sick childish alcoholic behaviour another example that again unfortunately kids do take forward in life and replicate. Thats whats happening with my son right now. Hes 25 and is my ex ah. Life has simply repeated itself first my ex husband and now my son.
As for trying to talk to him, I get that but never ever did it make a difference for me because he was drinking and his mind heart and soul were all about that. It is a bit like living with a sick person who is literally a liability. Like a dangerous person capable of dangerous behaviours like emotionally damaging children or drink driving or spending a whole families finances etc. Thats not to say we cant emotionally damage our children, I did because I too was a sick thinker so the poor souls got a drunk father and a guilt ridden paranoid obsessive controlling Mother.
I cant live that life any longer and in fact I can barely be around an active alcoholic, drunk or sober for longer than a couple of hours. I just cant listen to the point of view for long, the self pity or anger or whatever else, in fact even the upbeat moods aren't that pleasant because for one, its short term, its based on alcohol levels of some sort or other. The connection we want is just not there and so its not a relationship to me. I truly believe an active alcoholic just cannot be a Father, husband, employee, son. They just cant do it and its painful watching them even try.
Bettertomorrow said
Sep 3, 2018
Thank you bud and el-cee.
I was thinking about a discussion we had within our group recently. I can say that I care for him and 'hope' that he finds recovery. By 'hope' I mean the same way that I hope anyone who is ill will get better - it's not about expectations. I have at least learned not to have any of those for him.
What I am aware of is that although I care about him, the loving side of the relationship has slowly been chipped away. This doesn't feel like a loving partnership in a way that I would like it to be. Hence why I don't feel long term I can be happy for myself by living a life full of uncertainty and boundaries and almost daily detachment. I think for me it would be easier if children weren't involved as realistically I find it harder to detach the four children and me (rather than just me) and they are the priority.
I had a wobble yesterday but with this board support feel better and stronger today. odat is certainly true. Thank you one again.
-- Edited by Bettertomorrow on Monday 3rd of September 2018 03:01:29 PM
Iamhere said
Sep 3, 2018
Glad that you are feeling better today! I also believe you handled things well. What I had to learn in recovery is that there are no 'perfect' answers, just as there are no perfect people, relationships, parents, etc. I also agree that it's hard to detach and consider leaving with children and that affected my decisions over and over again. While they didn't ask to be born into the disease, it did happen and I felt it was my job to protect them as best I could. Mine are boys and in spite of the disease in their father, they do now and have always loved him unconditionally.
Things got much easier for me when I let go of perfection, and lived one day at a time with this program. I had to retrain my brain to look at what was positive vs. what was negative. I had to find my voice to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. For what it's worth, I shut off the stove and oven many times, and piled my boys into the car and went out to eat instead. I would come home to a drunk partner, usually passed out by then, the food/dinner exactly as I left it. Many times it was harder on me as I then had to clean it all up, and parent alone yet at the time, it felt like the best measure for the boys.
Was it? Who knows. Do they have the disease because of what they lived with or because it's in their genes? These are questions that I accept I will never know the answers to - I can speculate, project, assume, whatever. But, instead I choose to turn them over to my HP, pray for them and then let go. My sponsor was very helpful in giving me suggestions when I wasn't certain what I was doing was working. Same with program friends. I am not sure anything I did was 'original' or 'unique' and neither was the challenges I faced. Yet, when I called others or reached out, I certainly got more tools to put into my box to use as/if needed.
Projecting was never a good place for me to go....I still struggle to project positively, more often than not it's a negative outcome or gloom and doom! Staying present keeps me more centered one day at a time. (((Hugs)))
mamalioness said
Sep 3, 2018
Hey BetterTomorrow it sounds like you are on the right track and I get it...there is more to life then detachment and boundaries....I love the fact that you are looking at your options on making life better.....Keep coming back....we are listening and we care ....HUGS
Bo said
Sep 3, 2018
Some really insightful posts here -- and I am glad you are feeling better BT. While you handled things very well -- and you got some excellent support from people here, you need to feel that, be confident in yourself, your actions. And you should be. Keep doing it.
What I don't buy into is the flip-flop rationalization. What I mean by that -- yes, progress not perfection is one of the principles of the alanon program. However, while perfection may be ever-elusive, what I don't do is settle or compromise on my "deal-breakers" so to speak. I don't convince myself that the unacceptable is acceptable. I don't settle. I don't compromise on what is important -- on how I want to live my life. Now, when I was in it, no, I didn't leave the kids with my wife. While I prohibited her from driving the kids -- because I knew for a fact, without any doubt, that she was carrying alcohol with her, in her purse, and she had drank and drove before -- I did not and would not take any chance that she might. So I didn't. But that's just me. Everyone's situation is different, the specifics, the day to day, etc. One thing that is always tantamount in my mind -- along with safety -- is the protection and safety of kids.
It was easy for me -- during my recovery -- to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. I had to look at what was acceptable and what was not. I had to look at "how important is it" and letting go vs. me not accepting unacceptable behavior. And I had to make sure I was strong with that -- true to myself, my authenticity and my integrity. I didn't want to be in denial. I've seen far too many people in that mode and I just didn't want to go there. I have done too much work, to slide back there.
Having kids in the home is a variable. Does it drive a decision? Well, that's for each person to answer. For me, I felt that kids were far better off coming from the so called "broken home" than ongoing living in one. But, that's just me. I've seen far too many people decide to stay "because of the kids" -- and the positives, were far less than thought of, and they didn't even come close to outweighing the negatives. But, again, that's just me, my situation, and my experience, both professionally, and personally, and the observations I've made and the results I've seen. The "hereditary" and "genetic" aspect is also very much at play. It has to be. Many people look at -- "nature" vs. "nurture" -- and while genetics/hereditary is at play, so is "environmental" and "upbringing" and "homelife" and more of the like. For me, I was more concerned that the kids would have it -- as opposed to why do they have it. I have never been the type who is into throwing deck chairs off the Titanic so to speak.
That said, keep doing what you are doing...talk to and work with your sponsor...and I am sure seeing your sponsor yesterday was very productive. It's good to stay grounded, centered, on-track, and focused. Focus and clarity leads to getting better and getting healthy.
Bettertomorrow said
Sep 4, 2018
Thank you Bo, Iamhere and mamalioness - some really insightful and helpful replies.
I am spending some more time on looking at what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. I do have some deal breakers in place - e.g I don't leave husband alone with the children and any sign of physical violence and we leave forever etc. I am aware that before when my self esteem was much lower, I slowly accepted more and more unacceptable behaviour as being ok. Now that I am becoming healthier myself, my own boundaries on what is acceptable or not are getting clearer and I tolerate less. As a rule of thumb I ask myself would I tolerate this from a house guest. It helps give me a yardstick.
Up until recently, AH was more or less an asleep drunk. So while he was not drinking, he was more or less a normal dad - playing football with the kids, cooking dinner with them etc. However, he then binge drank and because of that would quite rapidly become dysfunctional and sleep or pass out. What we have started seeing more of very recently is him bickering - for example with the children and I don't and won't let them be open to any emotional abuse.
Someone else on this board (and sorry for not remembering who to give them credit) talks about having a plan A, B and C. I have A and B in place - so when he is passed out on the family room floor, we detach by going out and doing something nice together (plan A). Anything beyond being simply passed out (nasty behaviours etc), I have bags packed so we can rapidly spend the night at a local hotel as a fun activity (we haven't had to do this for a long time as he was in recovery for awhile). Plan C is leave the house forever or at least a substantial amount of time. Before he sought recovery I had asked him to leave and he did so, but I am very aware that he could have said no and I want to have something which is totally within my control. So I now have just enough money saved to be able to move out and rent a place for at least 6 months.
As I said before, he has now relapsed and is drinking again and I know that this disease is progressive and the unacceptable behaviours will almost certainly get worse.
I am open with the children and involving them in the decision making process. I talk to then about alanon and they are not ready to go to Alateen yet, but they do at least also understand that alcoholism is a disease and that they didn't cause it and we can do nothing to control it.
Thank you again for all your support and I wish you all a lovely day in what ever part of the world you hail from.
A nother said
Sep 4, 2018
Hi, gosh, I've been thinking about this issue a lot myself lately. My ah always wants to know what he did during his blackouts, and has told me that he has a right to know. So last weekend I told him the basics, not how I felt about it though. I didn't want to go into it at all. The knowledge of his behaviour doesn't change anything anyway.
I too have been trying to get a plan A, B and C. I realised on the weekend that my ah plans his binges. He buys the alcohol in for it. So if he is planning it, I can plan to get away from it. I asked him on Saturday if he would be drinking that night, and if he was I would go and stay at my mum's for the night with the children. Bizarrely, he said he's going to give the booze a rest for a while. So now the goal posts have changed again. I'm now dealing with a dry drunk
PosiesandPuppies said
Sep 4, 2018
Better - I am sorry your husband has picked up again. The rollercoaster is just so hard!
I applaud you for having a solid Plan A, B, and C!! I also give you kudos for involving your kids in the process and not hiding what is going on. I can see you even tried to get them to go to Ala-Teen... my teen did not want to go there either. We did use a therapist for as long as we could, though. What you are doing for your kids will go a long way for them in future years.
You are getting stronger... you know the saying, "When we know better, we do better!"
Peace to you and your kids!
Bo said
Sep 4, 2018
You are very welcome BT...it's hard to look at these things. We are usually talking about a loved one -- so that makes it hard. The loved one is often "in trouble" or "in need" and that too makes it hard as well.
Especially for the newcomer/beginner, alanon can offer some difficult tools, concepts, etc. As I said, when I was a newcomer/beginner, I struggles with the "how important is it" vs. "unacceptable behavior. It was a debate, often a battle between the two. I was in denial, so I often accepted unacceptable behavior and concinved myself "it was nothing" or "it was no big deal" or "it was OK" under the guise of "how important is it" -- and I've seen that with a lot with people in alanon. That said, knowing it and doing something about it are two different things. I hear you about the self-esteem aspect and slowly accepting more and more unacceptable behaviour as being ok. It's sad, but it becomes the norm. I am so glad you are now getting healthy -- healthier -- and working your program, implementing boundaries, etc. Remember, with boundaries -- they are not designed to "prevent" or "stop" the alcoholic from doing something that is unacceptable. It's there for you to take action -- to change you -- not him.
For me, the houseguest thing -- I went the opposite. I felt a spouse should live to and live at a higher standard. I did. So, for me, it was what I would accept from my wife, regardless of her illness. I do remember her once pointing her finger in my face and slapping me (I wasn't exactly looking, or else I would have ducked, LOL) -- and I remember reacting and saying "I don't accept that behavior from anyone, and I am certainly not going to accept it from you." -- and I left the house for the night. I racked up a lot of Marriott points, LOL, as there is a Courtyard Marriott less than 10 minutes from my house, LOL. I even had a regular room there, LOL.
As you said, it is very hard when kids witness, are exposed to, become the recipient of, etc., drunk behavior. It's not fair -- and it shouldn't happen. But, it is what it is. I always viewed my role as to protect the children -- their safety of course -- but at the same time, as kids get older, they will and in my opinion should discover certain things on their own. Obviously we can't "hide" an alcoholic every single time. The agitation, the bickering, the yelling, complaining, martyrism, victim-role, and so on, all of it is very hard on children.
You have your plans in place -- great for you!!! -- and while Plan C may seem like your worse-case scenario, keep working your program. Keep getting healthy, and healthier. Meeting makers make it. For me, alanon, working the program, going to meetings, working with, talking to, my sponsor, allowed me to get better. It allowed me to get healthy. Once I better, healthy, etc., I was in a place and position of health and well-being for my thinking as well. That's important. I was able to make decisions from a place of strength, intellect, clear-headed, a quality thought process, and I was also able to obtain objectivity as I would talk to my sponsor. This was key for me -- instead of being in a position and making decisions from a place of weakness, emotions, fear, duress, pressure, chaos, and so much more.
For me, when my wife used to "relapse" -- I made sure I kept my head where my feet were. I stayed grounded. I stayed focused. For me, it was simple. She relapsed, and either she wanted to get better, period, or she didn't. Either wanted to get clean and sober, or she didn't. Either she wanted to get back on track and live a life of recovery, or she didn't. And, it was obvious. There was no vagueness or ambiguity. It was black or white, yes or no. It was like when she would come out of rehab. She'd be 30, 60, or 90 days sober, even 180...and when she left rehab, it was very simple. Very obvious. Either she was going to come home, go to a meeting, find a sponsor, start working her AA program, and so on...or she was going to do something else. Didn't matter what it was. Go to lunch with a friend, start calling friends, making plans, going to a movie, whatever. That is simply the "intention" and "desire" and the "motivation" of the alcoholic. Either she wanted to stay clean and sober, or she didn't. All I had to do was see that -- and I knew what I was dealing with, and I knew what I needed to do. Me, I was not going to be the human ATM machine giving out a never-ending supply of one more chance or one last chance. When it was obvious she didn't want to get better, get healthy, be clean and sober...then I had to decide...is this the life I want to live. But, that's just me.
Here in Northern NJ -- it is a beautiful day, and thank you. I hope you have a beautiful day where you are, and a wonderful day. All the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 4th of September 2018 10:30:48 AM
Iamhere said
Sep 4, 2018
Better Tomorrow - good for you that you've got enough wisdom through recovery to work on yourself, your boundaries, detaching and your alternative plans. I love that you've got your children up to speed and have shared that it's a disease and that it wasn't a causal thing. It's also good that they are aware of AlaTeen should they find a desire to attend.
What is awesome about recovery is we each get to work it our way at our pace. As we say around here, if you work the program, the answers will come. That includes stay/go, acceptable/unacceptable, etc. Nobody but you can determine what's best for you, your family and your recovery/path.
I am grateful that my journey allowed me to preserve my marriage and keep my family together. It's far from perfect, but boundaries and detaching were instrumental for me to be able to find my way and then we all worked together to rebuild. I have never been a patient person and have lacked grace most of my life. I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted and I felt I knew what I deserved. I also learned in recovery that I have choices daily for every step I make and take. For me, I really wanted to honor my vows and keep my family together if possible as I had already bailed on a previous marriage. I was willing to do the work that allowed me to stay put and present, one day at a time.
So, just keep doing you. The answers will come and you appear to be moving the right way. Sending you tons of positive thoughts and prayers.
canadianguy said
Sep 6, 2018
This post reminds me of the words from my wise old sponsor, who used to ask me all the time...
"Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?"
I loved the gentle reminders that active A's are emotionally-stifled, so they are more than likely incapable, within their disease, to behave in healthy ways, particularly from an emotional support perspective.
I would really appreciate your ESH on something which has happened as I am trying to process my response but feeling I am going round in circles.
So in the short term we (four children and me) are still living at home with AH who has relapsed and is not in active recovery. I have boundaries in place for me and the children. If husband drinks or does something unacceptable, I state what I see to be unacceptable behaviour and simply leave the room and go and do something nice with the children. I don't always name the behaviour, but sometimes just leave the room.
Tonight I had spent a long time cooking a nice dinner and all the children were hungry. We sat down to eat and husband, who has been drinking starting making unacceptable comments to one of the older children, trying to pick a verbal fight with her. In normal circumstances I would have left the room with the children. However, in that moment it didn't seem feasible to decant all the children and the meal to one of the bedrooms (we don't have any other downstairs rooms to go to). So instead I asked him calmly to stop and ignored the behaviour and tried to get the conversation to something else with the children. He stormed off. I don't feel that I handled it the right way, hence would appreciate your ESH.
A second question revolves around the ongoing unacceptable behaviours. The next morning, husband has generally completely forgotten what has happened the night before. I can't and don't want to pretend that everything is fine, so I generally state again what happened and what I didn't find acceptable about it. I don't say it meanly, but stick to facts ...you did this (behaviour), I felt.... so I...(left the room - for example). Husband either denies it or says sorry and we start all over again. However, I am questioning my motives for telling him. I just want him to be aware of what happened. I don't expect him to do anything different and I am not trying to control him. I want him to know that I am not feeling everything is fine and dandy, because I am feeling hurt. What do others do? I am starting to feel that everything I thought I had learned in the last 1.5 years alanon wise is all wrong and that I am back at square one again with my own behaviour.
Thank you to any one for their ESH so I can try and process this for myself.
For me, I try to say only one time to my qualifier why I am upset and one time only otherwise it turns into nagging. I then work on my own program and let it go. Having any expectations of them is simply setting myself up for more dissapointment
Regarding the dinner scenario -- I think you handled it fine. You were respectful, polite, non-confrontational and you weren't instigating. That's good. You were presented with a no win situation. Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. There's plenty of dinners ahead of you, almost every night, LOL. Personally, I think it's a good thing when the alcoholic storms off. For many reasons, beyond the scope of this post/topic. Don't allow his reaction and behavior to impact you and your thinking. If the alcoholic is mad at you -- then it means you are probably doing something right.
The second issue -- the "ongoing unacceptable behaviours" as you called them...there's a bigger issue here. The word "ongoing" -- what are you doing about that? If detachment is not a long-term solution, and boundaries aren't a long-term solution...then what is? That's a question for you to think about, and talk to your sponsor about. I certainly understand the "can't and don't want to pretend that everything is fine" aspect. I understand oh so well. I lived with that for years. My question has always been -- is stating again what happened, stating what I find unacceptable, etc. -- to what end? Of course we don't say it mean. We say what we mean, mean what we say and we don't say it mean. I always state facts. However, there are two issues here. First, any time you say "you did" or "you said" -- it's pointing the finger. Keep it in the I. Think along the lines of one minute manager. Second, again, to what end? My wife denied it. My wife said she was sorry. And it happened again. And again. And again. I too question the motives in telling. Even if they are sincere -- to what end? When someone wants the alcoholic to be aware -- what's really behind that? Not control, but is it wanting to be heard? Wanting to right? Wanting to go on record? Wanting to infer or request that it doesn't happen again? Whatever it is -- it is trying to get the alcoholic to change, do what we want, etc. There are other ways to accomplish this. What are they? Well, you said this is "ongoing" -- so -- nothing changes if nothing changes. What other changes can you make? If you don't expect him to do anything different...is this the way you want to continue living? Talk to your sponsor. You can let him know everything is not fine and dandy by you detaching more, and establishing more boundaries. The next morning -- perhaps detaching a bit more. Perhaps not be so quick to be in a discussion or conversation. I used to focus on what I needed to do to start my day, and I explained to my wife that I wasn't going to "get into a discussion" with her based upon what happened last night. When questioned, I said "I can't get into this with you right now.
Wanting the alcoholic to know I am hurt -- was me delivering a message. It was me wanting the alcoholic to understand, and change. I stopped doing that. I had to find other ways to NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. I won't "negotiate" or "dance" with the alcoholic. That is part of my problem -- the expectation that if the alcoholic knows my feelings are hurt, they will stop doing it. Shame on me. LOL.
Be that as it may, I don't think this is an "acting" change or "words" that solve the problem. I think this is reflective of a much larger discussion -- one that starts with complete and total acceptance, surrender, letting go, and more change in oneself. I also think that detachment and boundaries aren't designed to make the unbearable bearable. They aren't designed to make the unacceptable acceptable. They are there to protect me, in the moment, so that I can get better and make healthy decisions, and so that I can start to make my life better.
For the second part, I have found in my experience, that I can state things once, but not to necessarily expect the other person to engage in a conversation. When I was with my active exAH, he'd do things like this all the time. He didn't apologize. Perhaps, deep down he was too angry and ashamed to address what had happened.
Over the years, Alanon helps me take the time to examine my own thoughts as a way to develop a better skill set. I remember feeling dismissed when things like that happened... or can get triggered if someone refuses to acknowledge me. A good question perhaps to think about with your sponsor is why the need to bring up what happened and how it made you feel? What would make the situation feel resolved or have closure? Is there any way to give this resolve to yourself without relying on his response or lack of one?
I can't tell you what to do, I don't know your situation, but I was very protective of my girls...THAT is where I drew the line...I would deflect...remove us.....and he never dared to put his hands on them because I would take off his head and then get out, press charges, etc., but that didn't happen thank goodness....as long as there is no risk of physical abuse (then its a situation where you/kids are in real danger) but mouthing off, can be deflected...like I would say, and I remember this...first I would pause...even back then, I kinda knew NOT to engage, give him anything to get "fired up" over..like he would say something and I would say "gee thats interesting, I'll think about that" or I remember saying "you might have a point here" or "i'm sorry you feel that way" I guess my "training at home" paid off because engaging a drunk was never a win situation....deflect...detach..of course b4 recovery, i internalized my "cool" and I stewed and obsessed and the anger just simmered in me....if hes just "mouthy" , just "dodge" and when he's sober IF you all talk about it, yea, I would say how the words make me feel and that I'm not going to sit there and be verbally abused....my 1st Ex AH never wanted to talk about what he did or said....my 2nd Ex AH did and we would sit and chat, but he rarely got confrontational or abusive....his "thing" was that I ignored him and he was sad...well, who the hell wants to be cozy with a drunk??? LOL I would tell him that "yea, I love you but when U R drunk, I can't get into any affection because ................" adn I would tell him how i felt.....
unacceptable behavior is anything that is against my boundaries, morals, ethics, serenity, my truth and safety (mental and physical) we can disagree, but keep it civil, kind and respectful is what I convey to any relationship I have...
IN SUPPORT
serenity47, Bo, bud and mamalioness - thankyou all so much for your responses. It is so heartwarming and supportive for me - so thank you.
I am seeing my sponsor on Sunday, but this has given me just what I need to start thinking deeper about it all in readiness for that meeting.
I accept that I did the best I could with the dinner situation last night and as you say, there are many more dinners to come! I like the sound of your ESHs and would like to try detaching some more today. I don't need to verbally bring it up again - it will achieve nothing for my own serenity and I have a gut feeling that my reason to bring it up again may well be due to a hidden desire to elicit a change in him, which I know is the wrong approach.
The bigger question is around the ongoing unacceptable behaviours. Again I need to question my own motives. In the 'longer term' I know that I don't want to live my life based on detachment and boundaries. I think I have allowed myself to be seduced by AHs first attempt at sobriety, which when it worked for awhile was good. Logically I understand that this disease is progressive and it is my own distorted thinking to hope / expect that he will seek sobriety. Bo - I read your response to someone else on a different thread and it is true for me - I accept things at a logical level, but I need to work on the more innate and visceral acceptance and surrender of 'control'. I guess it's back to step 1 for me!
I am in the meantime looking after myself and achieving emotional and financial freedom, so that I feel better placed to increase my choices beyond detach and boundaries in the moment.
Once again - thank you all for your support.
Your comment regarding not wanting to live a life based on detachment and boundaries struck a chord. I felt that way for many years. Ironically, now all I want is to be able to detach better and have more boundaries, as I know that either with or without the active A, these skills are awesome for me to live life more fully and peacefully. One day at a time on each of our journeys...
I think you handled it perfectly to be honest. You showed your kids an excellent example of not accepting unacceptable behaviour and your kids can take this message on in life, what a gift you gave them.
Him, he showed your children sick childish alcoholic behaviour another example that again unfortunately kids do take forward in life and replicate. Thats whats happening with my son right now. Hes 25 and is my ex ah. Life has simply repeated itself first my ex husband and now my son.
As for trying to talk to him, I get that but never ever did it make a difference for me because he was drinking and his mind heart and soul were all about that. It is a bit like living with a sick person who is literally a liability. Like a dangerous person capable of dangerous behaviours like emotionally damaging children or drink driving or spending a whole families finances etc. Thats not to say we cant emotionally damage our children, I did because I too was a sick thinker so the poor souls got a drunk father and a guilt ridden paranoid obsessive controlling Mother.
I cant live that life any longer and in fact I can barely be around an active alcoholic, drunk or sober for longer than a couple of hours. I just cant listen to the point of view for long, the self pity or anger or whatever else, in fact even the upbeat moods aren't that pleasant because for one, its short term, its based on alcohol levels of some sort or other. The connection we want is just not there and so its not a relationship to me. I truly believe an active alcoholic just cannot be a Father, husband, employee, son. They just cant do it and its painful watching them even try.
Thank you bud and el-cee.
I was thinking about a discussion we had within our group recently. I can say that I care for him and 'hope' that he finds recovery. By 'hope' I mean the same way that I hope anyone who is ill will get better - it's not about expectations. I have at least learned not to have any of those for him.
What I am aware of is that although I care about him, the loving side of the relationship has slowly been chipped away. This doesn't feel like a loving partnership in a way that I would like it to be. Hence why I don't feel long term I can be happy for myself by living a life full of uncertainty and boundaries and almost daily detachment. I think for me it would be easier if children weren't involved as realistically I find it harder to detach the four children and me (rather than just me) and they are the priority.
I had a wobble yesterday but with this board support feel better and stronger today. odat is certainly true. Thank you one again.
-- Edited by Bettertomorrow on Monday 3rd of September 2018 03:01:29 PM
Things got much easier for me when I let go of perfection, and lived one day at a time with this program. I had to retrain my brain to look at what was positive vs. what was negative. I had to find my voice to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. For what it's worth, I shut off the stove and oven many times, and piled my boys into the car and went out to eat instead. I would come home to a drunk partner, usually passed out by then, the food/dinner exactly as I left it. Many times it was harder on me as I then had to clean it all up, and parent alone yet at the time, it felt like the best measure for the boys.
Was it? Who knows. Do they have the disease because of what they lived with or because it's in their genes? These are questions that I accept I will never know the answers to - I can speculate, project, assume, whatever. But, instead I choose to turn them over to my HP, pray for them and then let go. My sponsor was very helpful in giving me suggestions when I wasn't certain what I was doing was working. Same with program friends. I am not sure anything I did was 'original' or 'unique' and neither was the challenges I faced. Yet, when I called others or reached out, I certainly got more tools to put into my box to use as/if needed.
Projecting was never a good place for me to go....I still struggle to project positively, more often than not it's a negative outcome or gloom and doom! Staying present keeps me more centered one day at a time. (((Hugs)))
What I don't buy into is the flip-flop rationalization. What I mean by that -- yes, progress not perfection is one of the principles of the alanon program. However, while perfection may be ever-elusive, what I don't do is settle or compromise on my "deal-breakers" so to speak. I don't convince myself that the unacceptable is acceptable. I don't settle. I don't compromise on what is important -- on how I want to live my life. Now, when I was in it, no, I didn't leave the kids with my wife. While I prohibited her from driving the kids -- because I knew for a fact, without any doubt, that she was carrying alcohol with her, in her purse, and she had drank and drove before -- I did not and would not take any chance that she might. So I didn't. But that's just me. Everyone's situation is different, the specifics, the day to day, etc. One thing that is always tantamount in my mind -- along with safety -- is the protection and safety of kids.
It was easy for me -- during my recovery -- to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. I had to look at what was acceptable and what was not. I had to look at "how important is it" and letting go vs. me not accepting unacceptable behavior. And I had to make sure I was strong with that -- true to myself, my authenticity and my integrity. I didn't want to be in denial. I've seen far too many people in that mode and I just didn't want to go there. I have done too much work, to slide back there.
Having kids in the home is a variable. Does it drive a decision? Well, that's for each person to answer. For me, I felt that kids were far better off coming from the so called "broken home" than ongoing living in one. But, that's just me. I've seen far too many people decide to stay "because of the kids" -- and the positives, were far less than thought of, and they didn't even come close to outweighing the negatives. But, again, that's just me, my situation, and my experience, both professionally, and personally, and the observations I've made and the results I've seen. The "hereditary" and "genetic" aspect is also very much at play. It has to be. Many people look at -- "nature" vs. "nurture" -- and while genetics/hereditary is at play, so is "environmental" and "upbringing" and "homelife" and more of the like. For me, I was more concerned that the kids would have it -- as opposed to why do they have it. I have never been the type who is into throwing deck chairs off the Titanic so to speak.
That said, keep doing what you are doing...talk to and work with your sponsor...and I am sure seeing your sponsor yesterday was very productive. It's good to stay grounded, centered, on-track, and focused. Focus and clarity leads to getting better and getting healthy.
Thank you Bo, Iamhere and mamalioness - some really insightful and helpful replies.
I am spending some more time on looking at what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. I do have some deal breakers in place - e.g I don't leave husband alone with the children and any sign of physical violence and we leave forever etc. I am aware that before when my self esteem was much lower, I slowly accepted more and more unacceptable behaviour as being ok. Now that I am becoming healthier myself, my own boundaries on what is acceptable or not are getting clearer and I tolerate less. As a rule of thumb I ask myself would I tolerate this from a house guest. It helps give me a yardstick.
Up until recently, AH was more or less an asleep drunk. So while he was not drinking, he was more or less a normal dad - playing football with the kids, cooking dinner with them etc. However, he then binge drank and because of that would quite rapidly become dysfunctional and sleep or pass out. What we have started seeing more of very recently is him bickering - for example with the children and I don't and won't let them be open to any emotional abuse.
Someone else on this board (and sorry for not remembering who to give them credit) talks about having a plan A, B and C. I have A and B in place - so when he is passed out on the family room floor, we detach by going out and doing something nice together (plan A). Anything beyond being simply passed out (nasty behaviours etc), I have bags packed so we can rapidly spend the night at a local hotel as a fun activity (we haven't had to do this for a long time as he was in recovery for awhile). Plan C is leave the house forever or at least a substantial amount of time. Before he sought recovery I had asked him to leave and he did so, but I am very aware that he could have said no and I want to have something which is totally within my control. So I now have just enough money saved to be able to move out and rent a place for at least 6 months.
As I said before, he has now relapsed and is drinking again and I know that this disease is progressive and the unacceptable behaviours will almost certainly get worse.
I am open with the children and involving them in the decision making process. I talk to then about alanon and they are not ready to go to Alateen yet, but they do at least also understand that alcoholism is a disease and that they didn't cause it and we can do nothing to control it.
Thank you again for all your support and I wish you all a lovely day in what ever part of the world you hail from.
I too have been trying to get a plan A, B and C. I realised on the weekend that my ah plans his binges. He buys the alcohol in for it. So if he is planning it, I can plan to get away from it. I asked him on Saturday if he would be drinking that night, and if he was I would go and stay at my mum's for the night with the children. Bizarrely, he said he's going to give the booze a rest for a while. So now the goal posts have changed again. I'm now dealing with a dry drunk
I applaud you for having a solid Plan A, B, and C!! I also give you kudos for involving your kids in the process and not hiding what is going on. I can see you even tried to get them to go to Ala-Teen... my teen did not want to go there either. We did use a therapist for as long as we could, though. What you are doing for your kids will go a long way for them in future years.
You are getting stronger... you know the saying, "When we know better, we do better!"
Peace to you and your kids!
You are very welcome BT...it's hard to look at these things. We are usually talking about a loved one -- so that makes it hard. The loved one is often "in trouble" or "in need" and that too makes it hard as well.
Especially for the newcomer/beginner, alanon can offer some difficult tools, concepts, etc. As I said, when I was a newcomer/beginner, I struggles with the "how important is it" vs. "unacceptable behavior. It was a debate, often a battle between the two. I was in denial, so I often accepted unacceptable behavior and concinved myself "it was nothing" or "it was no big deal" or "it was OK" under the guise of "how important is it" -- and I've seen that with a lot with people in alanon. That said, knowing it and doing something about it are two different things. I hear you about the self-esteem aspect and slowly accepting more and more unacceptable behaviour as being ok. It's sad, but it becomes the norm. I am so glad you are now getting healthy -- healthier -- and working your program, implementing boundaries, etc. Remember, with boundaries -- they are not designed to "prevent" or "stop" the alcoholic from doing something that is unacceptable. It's there for you to take action -- to change you -- not him.
For me, the houseguest thing -- I went the opposite. I felt a spouse should live to and live at a higher standard. I did. So, for me, it was what I would accept from my wife, regardless of her illness. I do remember her once pointing her finger in my face and slapping me (I wasn't exactly looking, or else I would have ducked, LOL) -- and I remember reacting and saying "I don't accept that behavior from anyone, and I am certainly not going to accept it from you." -- and I left the house for the night. I racked up a lot of Marriott points, LOL, as there is a Courtyard Marriott less than 10 minutes from my house, LOL. I even had a regular room there, LOL.
As you said, it is very hard when kids witness, are exposed to, become the recipient of, etc., drunk behavior. It's not fair -- and it shouldn't happen. But, it is what it is. I always viewed my role as to protect the children -- their safety of course -- but at the same time, as kids get older, they will and in my opinion should discover certain things on their own. Obviously we can't "hide" an alcoholic every single time. The agitation, the bickering, the yelling, complaining, martyrism, victim-role, and so on, all of it is very hard on children.
You have your plans in place -- great for you!!! -- and while Plan C may seem like your worse-case scenario, keep working your program. Keep getting healthy, and healthier. Meeting makers make it. For me, alanon, working the program, going to meetings, working with, talking to, my sponsor, allowed me to get better. It allowed me to get healthy. Once I better, healthy, etc., I was in a place and position of health and well-being for my thinking as well. That's important. I was able to make decisions from a place of strength, intellect, clear-headed, a quality thought process, and I was also able to obtain objectivity as I would talk to my sponsor. This was key for me -- instead of being in a position and making decisions from a place of weakness, emotions, fear, duress, pressure, chaos, and so much more.
For me, when my wife used to "relapse" -- I made sure I kept my head where my feet were. I stayed grounded. I stayed focused. For me, it was simple. She relapsed, and either she wanted to get better, period, or she didn't. Either wanted to get clean and sober, or she didn't. Either she wanted to get back on track and live a life of recovery, or she didn't. And, it was obvious. There was no vagueness or ambiguity. It was black or white, yes or no. It was like when she would come out of rehab. She'd be 30, 60, or 90 days sober, even 180...and when she left rehab, it was very simple. Very obvious. Either she was going to come home, go to a meeting, find a sponsor, start working her AA program, and so on...or she was going to do something else. Didn't matter what it was. Go to lunch with a friend, start calling friends, making plans, going to a movie, whatever. That is simply the "intention" and "desire" and the "motivation" of the alcoholic. Either she wanted to stay clean and sober, or she didn't. All I had to do was see that -- and I knew what I was dealing with, and I knew what I needed to do. Me, I was not going to be the human ATM machine giving out a never-ending supply of one more chance or one last chance. When it was obvious she didn't want to get better, get healthy, be clean and sober...then I had to decide...is this the life I want to live. But, that's just me.
Here in Northern NJ -- it is a beautiful day, and thank you. I hope you have a beautiful day where you are, and a wonderful day. All the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 4th of September 2018 10:30:48 AM
What is awesome about recovery is we each get to work it our way at our pace. As we say around here, if you work the program, the answers will come. That includes stay/go, acceptable/unacceptable, etc. Nobody but you can determine what's best for you, your family and your recovery/path.
I am grateful that my journey allowed me to preserve my marriage and keep my family together. It's far from perfect, but boundaries and detaching were instrumental for me to be able to find my way and then we all worked together to rebuild. I have never been a patient person and have lacked grace most of my life. I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted and I felt I knew what I deserved. I also learned in recovery that I have choices daily for every step I make and take. For me, I really wanted to honor my vows and keep my family together if possible as I had already bailed on a previous marriage. I was willing to do the work that allowed me to stay put and present, one day at a time.
So, just keep doing you. The answers will come and you appear to be moving the right way. Sending you tons of positive thoughts and prayers.
This post reminds me of the words from my wise old sponsor, who used to ask me all the time...
"Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?"
I loved the gentle reminders that active A's are emotionally-stifled, so they are more than likely incapable, within their disease, to behave in healthy ways, particularly from an emotional support perspective.
Hugs
Tom