While this word may not be an alanon topic or slogan for me, this is very much part of the alanon program. In my experience, congruency is very important. For many reasons. So, on one level, my alanon thinking, way of living, decision-making, etc., must be congruent with what I actually do. My actions cannot be in conflict with what I say, think, etc. I can't say one thing and do another. I cant say one thing and live another. On another level, its a matter of the heart and mind so to speak. I recently was seeing a woman. About 2 months or so. The relationship didnt progress the way either of us wanted to. It just didnt seem to progress, in many aspects. I wasn't connecting with her, we weren't having more substantial, more meaningful conversations and discussions. It was just kind of stuck. So I think both of us were a bit frustrated. At the same time, there was an incident. Nothing major. Our first date, she showed up and seemed out of it a bit. Slight slurring speech, a bit scattered, a bit in a fog, etc. I immediately took notice. By the end of the date, it seemed OK. Incident forgotten. I wrote it off. Didn't happen again, so I forgot about it. About 2 months later we get invited to a party. I pick her up, and within 10 minutes, shes sleeping. The entire drive out to my friend's house -- she's out like a light. We get to the party, and similar to the first date, shes out of it, to the point where the host asked her if she was OK. She was just out of it. She went to sit down on a lounge chair by the pool, and within 5 minutes shes out like a light. I am concerned, again. I am also embarrassed. I make the best of it, and have a great time by myself, even though she is sleeping on the lounge chair. I took care of what I needed to take care of -- and then left the party -- earlier than I had planned. Next date, as soon as we sit down, she starts crying, hysterically, telling me she got a DWI before we met. Court case is coming up. Shes embarrassed, feels horrible, and is really taking it hard. She explains, very well, why she is so embarrassed, taking it so hard, etc. Side note, in all the times weve been out, Ive never seen her drink more than 2 drinks. She had lap-band surgery 18 months ago, doesn't eat a lot, and doesn't drink a lot, at least from what I see when we are out, together, etc. Anyway, I am not asking for input on the situation.
So, I met with her, spoke to her, expressed a lot of things to her keeping it in the I and never pointing the finger. However, the end result was that I was ending the relationship. I told her that I cannot be emotionally vested, committed, etc., to a situation like this, etc. I explained that it was these things and other things as well that went on, and that based upon my experience, who I am, what I was looking for, etc. -- I didn't feel the relationship was progressing, and wasn't something that I could be emotionally committed to and vested in.
So, congruency for me -- its knowing one thing, making a decision based upon whats best for me, whats healthy for meand thendoing something else. For example, its ending the relationship because I know its not healthy for mebut then rationalizing, convincing myself, etc., and continuing to see her for whatever reasons. Because I like her. Because I have feelings for her. Because because because because. Knowing the healthy thing and doing the unhealthy thing.
It is also like knowing who I am, what I am looking for in a significant other, GF, partner, etc., and having clarity and focus around that, knowing what I bring to the table, what I am looking for someone else to bring to the table, I know and have tremendous clarity around my morals, values, and ethicsSo I know all this...and end the relationship. Or, in another example, I know the person isn't healthy for me -- obviously -- and yet I keep seeing the person. It's knowing one thing, knowing certain things, and then doing something against them. Why? Because I like the person? Because I have feelings for the person? Because I am enjoying something thats going on?
My friend met a woman. They hit it off. They dated a few times. After 5 dates, he was enjoying getting to know her, spending time, etc. He wanted to see where this was going. They went out and he found out there was another guy in the picture. He told her the kind of person he was that he cant date someone multiple times, who is still seeing someone else, has feelings for someone else, etc. He explained why, who he is, what hes looking for, etc. He did a great job explaining, keeping it in the I as they say. She said she understood, and she thanked him for setting a boundary which was verbiage I found kind of odd. Anyway, while he wasnt setting a boundary, he was explaining something to her. He said it was OK if she wanted to see the other guy, but that he couldn't continue seeing her. He explained why. She understood. He also said if she wasnt going to see the other guy, he wanted to continue dating her and see where this wentbut if she was going to continue dating the other guy, then he couldnt continue and they would have to be friends. She agreed. So, he said the talk went wellshe said she understood, and she said she felt she wanted to continue dating the other guy, because there was a connection there, and she wanted to see where that was going. But she said she still liked my friend, but understood, and they should just be friendsgreat, problem solvedhe took her home, and they started kissing! What??? And then the next night they went out again. And again. And they are being intimate not sex, but intimate.
So, my friend knows who he is, what he wants, what he can and can't do, etc. -- but he's going against it and hes doing it anyway! What is this? To me, this means his morals, his values, his ethics, his wants and desires for who he isis not congruent with his actions. His mind is not congruent with his heart, or his sexual drive, desires, whatever. Me, I would not do that but I think about the woman I was seeing. I did want to keep seeing herbut I knew it wasnt healthy for me.
So is congruency a problem for you?
I know for mewhen my mind, who I am, what is healthy for me, etc. is not congruent with what I am actually doing it means they are in conflict. What does that mean for me? CHAOS.
How about you? Is congruency a problem for you? Is it an ally? How do you stay congruent? Do you need to be? Is there conflict if aspects in your life aren't congruent? Thanks in advance.
Bo said
Aug 29, 2018
When I think these things through...it just speaks to me as "integrity" -- integrity to oneself.
Freetime said
Aug 29, 2018
Bo, that's exactly the word that came to my mind when reading your post --- integrity. Here is a dictionary definition I found:
n. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
n. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
n. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.
mamalioness said
Aug 29, 2018
OMG..that is what popped in my head..."integrity" and also weak character on his part...he says his wants/needs, etc., then just "goes on" in the same ole thing that he said he didn't want....I am decisive now...if I SAY I don't want to do something, I DONT do that thing....I am very strict about actions matching the words in a person and if they don't, I am gone......
hotrod said
Aug 29, 2018
I do believe that alanon tools such as principles above personality, examine your motives ,eliminate blame and judgement from your attitudes focus on yourself and trust in HP provides the tools for me to act with congruency
Bo said
Aug 29, 2018
I think this is an integrity conversation, but not in the typical or traditional sense. Like I said -- it's like knowing what I want, what's best for me, healthy. Like ending the relationship with this woman. I did. But then I found myself rationalizing a bit, wanting to believe her explanation. Yes, I liked her, enjoyed spending time with her, was attracted to her, etc. But when the smoke started, well, where there's smoke there's fire. Am I being prejudiced? No, I don't think so. I think I am aware, keenly aware, sensitive, to certain things about drinking/drug use. Does that make me more "conservative" in my decision making? When it comes to relationships, perhaps it does.
However, here I am finding myself wanting to consider seeing her again and continuing the relationship -- but on a trial basis, and letting her know my concerns.
Doesn't matter -- bottom line -- I know what's healthy, and I ended it. Now I am reconsidering, wanting to rationalize my concerns, etc.
I guess it's integrity to myself. I think it's more that my mind is not congruent with my heart/feelings. Emotions are superseding intellect.
Bo said
Aug 29, 2018
Freetime wrote:
Bo, that's exactly the word that came to my mind when reading your post --- integrity. Here is a dictionary definition I found:
n. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. n. The state of being unimpaired; soundness. n. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.
Thank you! One thing I've always had -- since I was a child -- is integrity. It is core of who I am. It is something that is important to me, and it's something that I want the other person to also bring to the table.
In this case, I guess it's just my actions are wavering from my thoughts. LOL.
DavidG said
Aug 29, 2018
Bo wrote:
So is congruency a problem for you?
Good topic, Bo...
first of all- is quoting a line any problem to you?
[If so- please p.m. me and I shall demur.]
I used to be all over the place- in a manner of speaking. And a lot of who ah was was in a deep dark space.
To understand your question ah use tautology and opposites. So "incongruent" is something ah kin understand too!
In the USA, especially, in discussions, people use dictionary definitions a lot. This was new to me. My assumptions is- that in the federal school system- this is a part of the culture. It is a good entre into defining terms and boundaries. But not something I am familiar with.
As my mind has healed, and my spirit has settled I have slowly become more congruent. Naturally, since you raised the issue, I have never really given a lot of thought to it. However it tempts me to follow your posts, and to explore some of the context.
You and I met- during the round of business discussions, and before that.
One of the points was that this Alanon group serves as a stand-alone group for me. My home group, if you will. It has loads of visitors, who go to groups elsewhere; and some maybe who have dual affiliations.
And lots of newcomers and browsers coming along too- it it a strong healthy and fruitful group.
At the moment I am getting used to 'being in the present'. In 'the now' as Tolle might say.
It is a place, from where I am sitting, that attracts congruence to it.
Do I have the concept around about right? Or am I right off the mark ?
Please lemme know... ...
thanks.
hotrod said
Aug 29, 2018
I agree the goal of your discussion is integrity. i merely pointed out the alanon tools that helped me to re develop this integrity which was lost dealing with the insanity of this disease
Bo said
Aug 29, 2018
Rose, you know, it's funny, ironic really -- I do the right thing. I live my life the right way. It is who I am. However, in my case, with the relationship I was in, while I know "the right thing" -- meaning what's best for me, the healthy thing -- but I want to do something else, which might not be in my best interests...for me, I still have integrity. The only person I am not doing right by...is ME!!!
Yes, you are an actions matching words person. I am too. Except...and I should put that in caps, LOL, except when it's mind and heart, or mind and emotions. In this case, I think I can set boundaries, I can perhaps proceed, on a trial basis, and let her know that if the things that are going on don't improve, then I am not going to feel comfortable being in the relationship. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. The only person at risk is me. When I was married and reconciliation was on the table, my sponsor said -- don't give it another 6 years! LOL. I said, I get it. And I do. I had my boundaries, I had a clear picture of what was acceptable and what was not acceptable. I had tremendous awareness around what was healthy for me. I tried. I protected myself. And I ended it when I wanted to.
Thanks Rose. One day at a time.
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
David, quoting me is not only not a problem -- it's invited, so thank you. I hope it is not a problem for others as apparently others complain about someone quoting someone else (not themselves). Different discussion.
For me, incongruence -- simply put, means chaos. I am doing something that in reality I don't want to do, but I want to, I am not definitive, I have no clarity and focus in and around what I am doing, I say things I wouldn't normally say, I do things I wouldn't normally do, etc.; and I will not be able to handle these things in an authentic, genuine, open and honest way. It's a current topic for me, both for me, and my friend. I asked him a lot of questions. Why? What? How? It prompts thinking. Thought process. Getting back to the focus and clarity, in my experience, my opinion, I think that's one thing missing in most people -- whether it be dealings, work, recovery, etc. When given the opportunity to walk right up to the uber-mirror, and look at oneself, completely openly and honestly -- not necessarily as part of recovery -- most people don't. I had this in my discussion with the woman I was seeing. While the discussion was not heated, it was her pointing the finger at me, you did this, you did that, etc. -- and me keeping it in the "I" -- and no ownership on her part. That's OK, but for me, it's not an easy situation to deal with. So be it, LOL. It is what it is. I like what you said (oh, I'm sorry, is that cross-talk?!?! LOL) your mind healing and your spirit settling, and becoming more congruent. I like that and that makes sense to me. Thanks for that.
As far as your other comments, while that is not my topic, and not on-point, I understand. I will digress, and say, I have a home group -- a men's meeting. But, there's a second meeting I go to religiously, and I consider that as something of a home group. I think it's a good thing that there are people who consider this as their home group. Perhaps some by choice, others not. I feel for the people who don't have any meetings nearby, in their geographic area, etc. That being said, regarding the congruence of the place, or the group, specifically this group -- that I do not see. I respectfully disagree. I don't see congruence as being a norm, or a standard, when the environment is absent of a substantial standard. What does that mean? I don't see enough clear, concise, and functioning guidelines and protocols. Alanon as a program has them. It is one of the things that allows you to walk into a meeting -- anywhere in the world -- and know what you will see, hear, be a part of, and what you are able to obtain. Yes, each meeting can be different -- the opening, the closing, sequence, etc. -- but the context of the meeting, is a standard. It is alanon. All of us, except perhaps those who have never been to a face to face meeting, know what that means. It is alanon. I feel this place attracts a lot -- but after newcomers/beginners, no, it is not congruence. We have the personalities element, not principles, in my opinion.
However, as I said, that is not my topic. My congruence topic is about congruence in oneself, and not having it. Like the examples I gave, what I am facing now, my friend, saying one thing and doing another. Run with it David. LOL.
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
Betty, excellent point. I think the tools of the program, and the principles of the program, can certainly help and contribute to one reconnecting, developing, furthering, etc., integrity. However, in my experience, absent a re-born element, an ephiphany, etc. -- integrity is a core element. It can be developed, rediscovered, etc. -- but either you have it or you don't. You had it, and "lost" it due to the insanity of this disease. That's not a "problem" per se. You had it, reconnected and redeveloped it -- and that's because you had it and that's who you are.
Come to alanon without it...and it's not a given you'll get it. Just my experience.
I agree though alanon can help "find" so many of those things...for me, it helped me find and get my life back. The insanity of this disease tooks so much, had such an impact, on me, my life. Yes, I allowed it to some extent. Yes, I contributed to it. For me however, as I found recovery -- and really started doing the work, and most important, the work that was uncomfortable, difficult, not easy, etc. -- that's when I got so much back, and when I discovered so much I didn't have. All thanks to alanon!!!
hotrod said
Aug 30, 2018
I agree Bo Me too
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
What I find interesting, and thought-provoking, is how we can tie congruence and integrity...and people can have the former without the latter, but it would be hard to have the latter without the former. Sure, there are exceptions.
I view the congruence as integrity with oneself. Saying one thing and doing another -- and the harm is to oneself. My friend. Or me seeing that woman. However, the contrary -- one can be congruent with oneself, and have integrity with oneself...and yet have no integrity in their dealing with others.
hotrod said
Aug 30, 2018
For Me it was "Denial"
Aloha said
Aug 30, 2018
I'm not going to come strutting into this topic pretending that I hold my morals and values to a "T".
I wouldn't have needed to start attending Al-Anon meetings if I had my life in that kind of order. And I'm not brave enough to say that I live that way today, either. For me, life isn't black and white and HP loves to throw new people and situations my way to see how I can handle them.
I'm human and I make mistakes. And I think I had many instances of not being congruent - in denial, as Betty described - because HP had some lessons for me.
Again and again I'm reminded that when I'm not so connected with my HP that I start looking outside myself to fill my "God-shaped-hole". I try to stuff other people, material things, experiences in there and they always come up short. HP just waits patiently for me to come to the realization that I'm doing it again and then I get to go back to filling that emptiness with God again.
So no. I'm not always congruent. I just do the best I can each and every day. If I start over-valuing my ability to be congruent, I find I get humbled pretty quickly - that, or I start becoming self-abusive because I'm not meeting my expectations.
Progress, not perfection.
Thanks for letting me share.
el-cee said
Aug 30, 2018
I had to look this word up, to be honest Ive had to look up a lot of words in Alanon. I take it, it means agreement, harmony, balance. You asked if anyone had a problem with it. Yes. I do. I have this 'inner child' or self will run riot that I feel like its a constant battle right now in almost every aspect of my life. Im 6 years in Alanon and I did get that balance but I've came to another plateau, maybe Im due a growth spurt.
I know whats good for me, Ive made a list, things that help my self esteem grow , keep me close to God, make me a channel and thats what I want to be, to have. That list is often disregarded by me. I want what I want, I have this voice that says 'F... it' Sorry but that's how it sounds.
I have a relationship that is very intimate but no depth of connection in any other areas of life. For example, we only meet up for dinner and it leads to sex every time. We don't take part in each others lives in any other way. I kind of know this is not good for me in terms of my self esteem, it doesn't feel like its flowing, like its good for me or the right thing. In fact a lot of the times I feel frustrated and resentful. On one hand I can feel used and the old self pity comes in but in reality I'm getting what I want maybe not what I need. I'm not a victim but I can feel like it at times but again this is my default mode of thinking, the poor mes. Also, when I visualise more - I don't really like the idea of it, not with him anyway. It would most likely mean living together and the thought does not appeal to me. We have little in common in terms of our interests, we are both quite free spirited and do our own thing.
Anyway, what Im trying to say is that often Im searching for the distraction, the short term gratitude in things that arent good for me. Alanon has given me the awareness and the language to express myself and understand myself but I've still got that emotional immaturity, a little girl screaming for what I want and now and more!!!! God I hate that b****. Im probably stuck on step 3, cant and wont give my will and life to the care of my higher power.
hotrod said
Aug 30, 2018
((LC)) love your honesty, INTEGRITY and recovery. Please do keep coming back
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
hotrod wrote:
For Me it was "Denial"
Betty, oh, do I hear you on that!!! Big-time denial for me. Thank you.
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
What I found most amazing -- and it was such an incredible lesson -- was when my mind and my heart, or my words and my actions, were not congruent...that leads to chaos!!!
What an enlightening lesson, absolutely amazing. I knew it, but I actually learned and understood it. Then so much made sense to me.
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
el-cee, I loved what you said -- "Anyway, what Im trying to say is that often Im searching for the distraction, the short term gratitude in things that arent good for me. Alanon has given me the awareness and the language to express myself and understand myself but I've still got that emotional immaturity, a little girl screaming for what I want and now and more!!!! God I hate that b****. Im probably stuck on step 3, cant and wont give my will and life to the care of my higher power."
Given my experience, what I learned was that when I was doing something for the alcoholic in my life -- I was doing on the surface to make her feel better. But, I was really doing it to make me feel better. If I did feel better, it was for a fleeting, brief moment...very short lived...and then I felt worse!!!
Iamhere said
Aug 30, 2018
All I can contribute and remain aligned with recovery is To Thine Own Self, Be True. This slogan, combined with the 3 legacies of recovery - Recovery, Unity, Service are how I align my life, one day at a time.
Bo said
Aug 30, 2018
I did the topic tonight at our men's meeting -- and this was my topic. What fascinating perspectives, insights, opinions, etc.
One of the more telling shares spoke to when you make a decision that is either not want you originally or initially wanted, or one of discomfort, might not be well-received, etc. -- the subsequent thought process is to negotiate, rationalize, look for reasons why you don't have to follow through with your original decision. The guy who shared used the word integrity -- but talked about integrity as being "whole" and "true" to yourself, with yourself. While I understand that, the true aspect for me, isn't as deep, core, as integrity, authenticity, etc. For me, my core is integrity. It is who I am. I do the right thing, I live my life the right way. In my dealings with other people -- it is innate.
However, for me, when it is only me, like in the case I am dealing with, this relationship that I chose to end -- if I "changed my mind" and my actions didn't back up my words, and I didn't stand by my decision...for me, I am not being true to myself, I am not in a place of integrity. Who suffers? Only me. Does that make it OK? No, it does not. I know when my mind and my actions aren't congruent...there is chaos.
While this word may not be an alanon topic or slogan for me, this is very much part of the alanon program. In my experience, congruency is very important. For many reasons. So, on one level, my alanon thinking, way of living, decision-making, etc., must be congruent with what I actually do. My actions cannot be in conflict with what I say, think, etc. I can't say one thing and do another. I cant say one thing and live another. On another level, its a matter of the heart and mind so to speak. I recently was seeing a woman. About 2 months or so. The relationship didnt progress the way either of us wanted to. It just didnt seem to progress, in many aspects. I wasn't connecting with her, we weren't having more substantial, more meaningful conversations and discussions. It was just kind of stuck. So I think both of us were a bit frustrated. At the same time, there was an incident. Nothing major. Our first date, she showed up and seemed out of it a bit. Slight slurring speech, a bit scattered, a bit in a fog, etc. I immediately took notice. By the end of the date, it seemed OK. Incident forgotten. I wrote it off. Didn't happen again, so I forgot about it. About 2 months later we get invited to a party. I pick her up, and within 10 minutes, shes sleeping. The entire drive out to my friend's house -- she's out like a light. We get to the party, and similar to the first date, shes out of it, to the point where the host asked her if she was OK. She was just out of it. She went to sit down on a lounge chair by the pool, and within 5 minutes shes out like a light. I am concerned, again. I am also embarrassed. I make the best of it, and have a great time by myself, even though she is sleeping on the lounge chair. I took care of what I needed to take care of -- and then left the party -- earlier than I had planned. Next date, as soon as we sit down, she starts crying, hysterically, telling me she got a DWI before we met. Court case is coming up. Shes embarrassed, feels horrible, and is really taking it hard. She explains, very well, why she is so embarrassed, taking it so hard, etc. Side note, in all the times weve been out, Ive never seen her drink more than 2 drinks. She had lap-band surgery 18 months ago, doesn't eat a lot, and doesn't drink a lot, at least from what I see when we are out, together, etc. Anyway, I am not asking for input on the situation.
So, I met with her, spoke to her, expressed a lot of things to her keeping it in the I and never pointing the finger. However, the end result was that I was ending the relationship. I told her that I cannot be emotionally vested, committed, etc., to a situation like this, etc. I explained that it was these things and other things as well that went on, and that based upon my experience, who I am, what I was looking for, etc. -- I didn't feel the relationship was progressing, and wasn't something that I could be emotionally committed to and vested in.
So, congruency for me -- its knowing one thing, making a decision based upon whats best for me, whats healthy for meand thendoing something else. For example, its ending the relationship because I know its not healthy for mebut then rationalizing, convincing myself, etc., and continuing to see her for whatever reasons. Because I like her. Because I have feelings for her. Because because because because. Knowing the healthy thing and doing the unhealthy thing.
It is also like knowing who I am, what I am looking for in a significant other, GF, partner, etc., and having clarity and focus around that, knowing what I bring to the table, what I am looking for someone else to bring to the table, I know and have tremendous clarity around my morals, values, and ethicsSo I know all this...and end the relationship. Or, in another example, I know the person isn't healthy for me -- obviously -- and yet I keep seeing the person. It's knowing one thing, knowing certain things, and then doing something against them. Why? Because I like the person? Because I have feelings for the person? Because I am enjoying something thats going on?
My friend met a woman. They hit it off. They dated a few times. After 5 dates, he was enjoying getting to know her, spending time, etc. He wanted to see where this was going. They went out and he found out there was another guy in the picture. He told her the kind of person he was that he cant date someone multiple times, who is still seeing someone else, has feelings for someone else, etc. He explained why, who he is, what hes looking for, etc. He did a great job explaining, keeping it in the I as they say. She said she understood, and she thanked him for setting a boundary which was verbiage I found kind of odd. Anyway, while he wasnt setting a boundary, he was explaining something to her. He said it was OK if she wanted to see the other guy, but that he couldn't continue seeing her. He explained why. She understood. He also said if she wasnt going to see the other guy, he wanted to continue dating her and see where this wentbut if she was going to continue dating the other guy, then he couldnt continue and they would have to be friends. She agreed. So, he said the talk went wellshe said she understood, and she said she felt she wanted to continue dating the other guy, because there was a connection there, and she wanted to see where that was going. But she said she still liked my friend, but understood, and they should just be friendsgreat, problem solvedhe took her home, and they started kissing! What??? And then the next night they went out again. And again. And they are being intimate not sex, but intimate.
So, my friend knows who he is, what he wants, what he can and can't do, etc. -- but he's going against it and hes doing it anyway! What is this? To me, this means his morals, his values, his ethics, his wants and desires for who he isis not congruent with his actions. His mind is not congruent with his heart, or his sexual drive, desires, whatever. Me, I would not do that but I think about the woman I was seeing. I did want to keep seeing herbut I knew it wasnt healthy for me.
So is congruency a problem for you?
I know for mewhen my mind, who I am, what is healthy for me, etc. is not congruent with what I am actually doing it means they are in conflict. What does that mean for me? CHAOS.
How about you? Is congruency a problem for you? Is it an ally? How do you stay congruent? Do you need to be? Is there conflict if aspects in your life aren't congruent? Thanks in advance.
n. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
n. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
n. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.
OMG..that is what popped in my head..."integrity" and also weak character on his part...he says his wants/needs, etc., then just "goes on" in the same ole thing that he said he didn't want....I am decisive now...if I SAY I don't want to do something, I DONT do that thing....I am very strict about actions matching the words in a person and if they don't, I am gone......
I do believe that alanon tools such as principles above personality, examine your motives ,eliminate blame and judgement from your attitudes focus on yourself and trust in HP provides the tools for me to act with congruency
However, here I am finding myself wanting to consider seeing her again and continuing the relationship -- but on a trial basis, and letting her know my concerns.
Doesn't matter -- bottom line -- I know what's healthy, and I ended it. Now I am reconsidering, wanting to rationalize my concerns, etc.
I guess it's integrity to myself. I think it's more that my mind is not congruent with my heart/feelings. Emotions are superseding intellect.
Thank you! One thing I've always had -- since I was a child -- is integrity. It is core of who I am. It is something that is important to me, and it's something that I want the other person to also bring to the table.
In this case, I guess it's just my actions are wavering from my thoughts. LOL.
Good topic, Bo...
first of all- is quoting a line any problem to you?
[If so- please p.m. me and I shall demur.]
I used to be all over the place- in a manner of speaking. And a lot of who ah was was in a deep dark space.
To understand your question ah use tautology and opposites. So "incongruent" is something ah kin understand too!
In the USA, especially, in discussions, people use dictionary definitions a lot. This was new to me. My assumptions is- that in the federal school system- this is a part of the culture. It is a good entre into defining terms and boundaries. But not something I am familiar with.
As my mind has healed, and my spirit has settled I have slowly become more congruent. Naturally, since you raised the issue, I have never really given a lot of thought to it. However it tempts me to follow your posts, and to explore some of the context.
You and I met- during the round of business discussions, and before that.
One of the points was that this Alanon group serves as a stand-alone group for me. My home group, if you will. It has loads of visitors, who go to groups elsewhere; and some maybe who have dual affiliations.
And lots of newcomers and browsers coming along too- it it a strong healthy and fruitful group.
At the moment I am getting used to 'being in the present'. In 'the now' as Tolle might say.
It is a place, from where I am sitting, that attracts congruence to it.
Do I have the concept around about right? Or am I right off the mark ?
Please lemme know...
...
thanks.
I agree the goal of your discussion is integrity. i merely pointed out the alanon tools that helped me to re develop this integrity which was lost dealing with the insanity of this disease
Yes, you are an actions matching words person. I am too. Except...and I should put that in caps, LOL, except when it's mind and heart, or mind and emotions. In this case, I think I can set boundaries, I can perhaps proceed, on a trial basis, and let her know that if the things that are going on don't improve, then I am not going to feel comfortable being in the relationship. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. The only person at risk is me. When I was married and reconciliation was on the table, my sponsor said -- don't give it another 6 years! LOL. I said, I get it. And I do. I had my boundaries, I had a clear picture of what was acceptable and what was not acceptable. I had tremendous awareness around what was healthy for me. I tried. I protected myself. And I ended it when I wanted to.
Thanks Rose. One day at a time.
For me, incongruence -- simply put, means chaos. I am doing something that in reality I don't want to do, but I want to, I am not definitive, I have no clarity and focus in and around what I am doing, I say things I wouldn't normally say, I do things I wouldn't normally do, etc.; and I will not be able to handle these things in an authentic, genuine, open and honest way. It's a current topic for me, both for me, and my friend. I asked him a lot of questions. Why? What? How? It prompts thinking. Thought process. Getting back to the focus and clarity, in my experience, my opinion, I think that's one thing missing in most people -- whether it be dealings, work, recovery, etc. When given the opportunity to walk right up to the uber-mirror, and look at oneself, completely openly and honestly -- not necessarily as part of recovery -- most people don't. I had this in my discussion with the woman I was seeing. While the discussion was not heated, it was her pointing the finger at me, you did this, you did that, etc. -- and me keeping it in the "I" -- and no ownership on her part. That's OK, but for me, it's not an easy situation to deal with. So be it, LOL. It is what it is. I like what you said (oh, I'm sorry, is that cross-talk?!?! LOL) your mind healing and your spirit settling, and becoming more congruent. I like that and that makes sense to me. Thanks for that.
As far as your other comments, while that is not my topic, and not on-point, I understand. I will digress, and say, I have a home group -- a men's meeting. But, there's a second meeting I go to religiously, and I consider that as something of a home group. I think it's a good thing that there are people who consider this as their home group. Perhaps some by choice, others not. I feel for the people who don't have any meetings nearby, in their geographic area, etc. That being said, regarding the congruence of the place, or the group, specifically this group -- that I do not see. I respectfully disagree. I don't see congruence as being a norm, or a standard, when the environment is absent of a substantial standard. What does that mean? I don't see enough clear, concise, and functioning guidelines and protocols. Alanon as a program has them. It is one of the things that allows you to walk into a meeting -- anywhere in the world -- and know what you will see, hear, be a part of, and what you are able to obtain. Yes, each meeting can be different -- the opening, the closing, sequence, etc. -- but the context of the meeting, is a standard. It is alanon. All of us, except perhaps those who have never been to a face to face meeting, know what that means. It is alanon. I feel this place attracts a lot -- but after newcomers/beginners, no, it is not congruence. We have the personalities element, not principles, in my opinion.
However, as I said, that is not my topic. My congruence topic is about congruence in oneself, and not having it. Like the examples I gave, what I am facing now, my friend, saying one thing and doing another. Run with it David. LOL.
Come to alanon without it...and it's not a given you'll get it. Just my experience.
I agree though alanon can help "find" so many of those things...for me, it helped me find and get my life back. The insanity of this disease tooks so much, had such an impact, on me, my life. Yes, I allowed it to some extent. Yes, I contributed to it. For me however, as I found recovery -- and really started doing the work, and most important, the work that was uncomfortable, difficult, not easy, etc. -- that's when I got so much back, and when I discovered so much I didn't have. All thanks to alanon!!!
I view the congruence as integrity with oneself. Saying one thing and doing another -- and the harm is to oneself. My friend. Or me seeing that woman. However, the contrary -- one can be congruent with oneself, and have integrity with oneself...and yet have no integrity in their dealing with others.
I wouldn't have needed to start attending Al-Anon meetings if I had my life in that kind of order. And I'm not brave enough to say that I live that way today, either. For me, life isn't black and white and HP loves to throw new people and situations my way to see how I can handle them.
I'm human and I make mistakes. And I think I had many instances of not being congruent - in denial, as Betty described - because HP had some lessons for me.
Again and again I'm reminded that when I'm not so connected with my HP that I start looking outside myself to fill my "God-shaped-hole". I try to stuff other people, material things, experiences in there and they always come up short. HP just waits patiently for me to come to the realization that I'm doing it again and then I get to go back to filling that emptiness with God again.
So no. I'm not always congruent. I just do the best I can each and every day. If I start over-valuing my ability to be congruent, I find I get humbled pretty quickly - that, or I start becoming self-abusive because I'm not meeting my expectations.
Progress, not perfection.
Thanks for letting me share.
I had to look this word up, to be honest Ive had to look up a lot of words in Alanon. I take it, it means agreement, harmony, balance. You asked if anyone had a problem with it. Yes. I do. I have this 'inner child' or self will run riot that I feel like its a constant battle right now in almost every aspect of my life. Im 6 years in Alanon and I did get that balance but I've came to another plateau, maybe Im due a growth spurt.
I know whats good for me, Ive made a list, things that help my self esteem grow , keep me close to God, make me a channel and thats what I want to be, to have. That list is often disregarded by me. I want what I want, I have this voice that says 'F... it' Sorry but that's how it sounds.
I have a relationship that is very intimate but no depth of connection in any other areas of life. For example, we only meet up for dinner and it leads to sex every time. We don't take part in each others lives in any other way. I kind of know this is not good for me in terms of my self esteem, it doesn't feel like its flowing, like its good for me or the right thing. In fact a lot of the times I feel frustrated and resentful. On one hand I can feel used and the old self pity comes in but in reality I'm getting what I want maybe not what I need. I'm not a victim but I can feel like it at times but again this is my default mode of thinking, the poor mes. Also, when I visualise more - I don't really like the idea of it, not with him anyway. It would most likely mean living together and the thought does not appeal to me. We have little in common in terms of our interests, we are both quite free spirited and do our own thing.
Anyway, what Im trying to say is that often Im searching for the distraction, the short term gratitude in things that arent good for me. Alanon has given me the awareness and the language to express myself and understand myself but I've still got that emotional immaturity, a little girl screaming for what I want and now and more!!!! God I hate that b****. Im probably stuck on step 3, cant and wont give my will and life to the care of my higher power.
((LC)) love your honesty, INTEGRITY and recovery. Please do keep coming back
Betty, oh, do I hear you on that!!! Big-time denial for me. Thank you.
What an enlightening lesson, absolutely amazing. I knew it, but I actually learned and understood it. Then so much made sense to me.
Given my experience, what I learned was that when I was doing something for the alcoholic in my life -- I was doing on the surface to make her feel better. But, I was really doing it to make me feel better. If I did feel better, it was for a fleeting, brief moment...very short lived...and then I felt worse!!!
One of the more telling shares spoke to when you make a decision that is either not want you originally or initially wanted, or one of discomfort, might not be well-received, etc. -- the subsequent thought process is to negotiate, rationalize, look for reasons why you don't have to follow through with your original decision. The guy who shared used the word integrity -- but talked about integrity as being "whole" and "true" to yourself, with yourself. While I understand that, the true aspect for me, isn't as deep, core, as integrity, authenticity, etc. For me, my core is integrity. It is who I am. I do the right thing, I live my life the right way. In my dealings with other people -- it is innate.
However, for me, when it is only me, like in the case I am dealing with, this relationship that I chose to end -- if I "changed my mind" and my actions didn't back up my words, and I didn't stand by my decision...for me, I am not being true to myself, I am not in a place of integrity. Who suffers? Only me. Does that make it OK? No, it does not. I know when my mind and my actions aren't congruent...there is chaos.