My ah and I talked last night. He was drinking again and I tried to be neutral and avoid the nastys.
He explained to me that he thinks we have different expectations in this marriage when it comes to drinking. I have a low tolerance to his drunken behaviour and he has a higher tolerance of drunken behaviour in general. He thinks that if I upped my tolerance he would feel less inclined to ''react' to my objections.
I think I see where he is coming from. If I accept his drinking is part of him then there will be fewer horrible occasions.
He is from a big drinking family who probably won't accept him quitting. He has friends who don't really have alcohol issues in my opinion, but they like to get drunk with him, and when he goes over the edge they are entertained by him. He values these friendships highly. They are old friends and I understand that there is value there.
But still, I don't feel like I can live with this anymore, and what's more, I think his disease is progressing. He drinks loads on his own. At one time his big drunken binges were only at social events. I feel like him asking me to put up with it (because he's heard that other wives are more tolerant than me) is unreasonable and illogical.
Iamhere said
Aug 19, 2018
A nother - What I hear is that he's not ready/willing to look at how his actions are affecting 'life'. This is not uncommon - denial is a huge part of this disease. It's also very common for justification/rationalization to enter a discussion when one is in denial. What are our program suggests is that he's going to do what he's going to do, and only you can determine if your needs are met in your relationship and if you can accept things assuming they will not change.
It's very true the disease progresses. It's also true the A is the last one to 'see' this. It's also true that most alcoholics will not seek solutions until they've hit their own bottom, and nobody knows exactly what that might be. We also hit a bottom and it's at that point when we seek help, support and our own recovery.
Our program suggests we keep the focus on us, and try to not live life or make decisions based on what they are/are not doing. (((Hugs))) - it's a progressive, painful disease and hard on us when we begin to realize the person we love is changed by the disease. Keep coming back!
hotrod said
Aug 19, 2018
Alcoholism is a progressive, fatal, cunning and confusing disease . Attending alanon meetings and picking up constructive tools to live by, helped me to not react to the insanity , take care of myself in the marriage so as to discover a Higher Power and live and let live. Engaging in a conversation with a drunk person is a waste of time and energy.
mamalioness said
Aug 19, 2018
I like what Betty says. Trying to discuss things with a drunk is useless. And as far as expectations go, it would be useless to expect him at this time in his life, to get help for his drinking because it appears he is trying to get you to accept something that is not acceptable to you. I think what I would do is up my meetings, increase my work with my sponsor, increase my step work and just basically detach and focus on me and maybe doing that, you can figure out where you want to be in five years from now. Where do you want to be for the rest of your life. The program will help you make a levelheaded and informed decision as to do you want to continue with this or make a change. I dont tell people what to do with their lives, especially their marriages, but if I have to continue with anyone with zero expectations of healthy behavior, I have to ask myself what am I doing? What is my pay off staying in with this person? Where is the benefit for me? But as I said, this is a decision only you can make . You say that he is getting worse and most likely that is true because this disease is progressive and it is terminal if they do not arrest it and stay sober and work a strong program and even then, the relapse rate is quite high. So for now, I think I would just completely attach myself to my program so I can think what I really want out of life not out of emotions but out of healthy rational and realistic thinking I wish you the best of luck in this. Ive been there twice and it is not fun. The first husband I came to hate he was so nasty and cruel. The second husband I truly loved but I just was done watching him drink himself closer and closer to death. I did not want to be his end-of-life care nurse. I knew there had to be more to life than taking care of a progressing alcoholic.
The slogan keep the focus on me, and keep it simple come to mind when I read your post also letting go and letting your higher power. Keep coming back because this does work. In support, always
Lyne said
Aug 19, 2018
Hi A nother-My experience is that my A cannot understand my severe dislike of alcohol after even witnessing drunk driving. There is a mountain of differences in acceptable behavior. My sponsor has taught me that I cannot force solutions and to try and have no expectations. I continue to work an alanon program to better my own life, and take one day at a time. I do not have to make every decision today, Lyne
Aline said
Aug 19, 2018
Hi, Another... I read your share and it so reminds me of many tens and more likely hundreds of conversations I've had with my ex-abf. I so often listened to him and he always was so sure of himself and so convincing... And I listened to him and disregarded my needs and wants, one by one, let myself be convinced I'm not seeing things right, day by day. Its so sad and the truth is I always had other choices, but at the time they seemed to painful to even consider. In the end I came out much worse on the whole, my easier ways of less resistance hurt me a LOT. I'm so glad you are here... There's no one right answer, you have to find your own answers, but working this program and focusing on you is the gift you can give yourself now, even if it doesn't seem like much at this point, perhaps. Working the steps with the sponsor has by far been the most valuable thing this program has given me, so I warmly encourage you to do the same. ((((Hugs))))
JerryF said
Aug 19, 2018
The responses to your post are right on especially from the simplicity of Betty's which also became my experience, to the others. I am convinced again over and over that the solutions are in the program. From my way of listening he is using blame to try to control you and also revealing the progressive, insane nature of the disease of Alcoholism. You may yet arrive at your solutions and my experience is that you will find help with consistent attending to our program before any other decisions regarding a future. Keep coming back cause this works when we work it. ((((hugs))))
tiredtonite said
Aug 19, 2018
I hope you will continue to put your own life and well-being first. Your husband is not ready to give up drinking. No problem for him. He's getting a lot of mileage out of it. He's the "lovable" alcoholic clown for his friends, yay him! My recovering abf once told me that all his friendships were based on drinking. Since sobriety, he has not heard one peep from these so called friends. It's because these were superficial friendship based on drinking, an event, the good old days (which really were they that good?), etc. At first he missed these guys but realized he could play softball, golf, fish etc. with non drinking alcoholics.In AA he made new friends to do things with, play sports, socialize, attend AA family get togethers etc. It's not a boys club. Wives, gfs and kids are welcomed. Recovering A who haven't been rejected by family are glad to have them around. Sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is a family affair.
I hope you'll keep with your meetings and grow your network in the Alanon community. We also have our get togethers as "the family of choice." In my humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your disinterest in having an active alcoholic sharing your daily life. As was already stated the disease continues to progress which means continuing to update your boundaries to keep emotionally, physically, spiritually and economically safe. Personally, I found no serenity in having to always be on the defensive and the occassional healthy emotional scrap that was thrown in my direction (they were few and then fewer as the disease progressed). It felt very sad for me to come to the revelation that I needed build a Plan B instead continuing in a marriage with one participant. This is simply my experience so please take what you like and leave the rest.
I hope you find the answers that are best for you. Recovery can open so many wonderful new doors. I hope your husband through the grace of his higher power will find the willingness to try. Either way, if you stick by others in Alanon and your hp you will continue to be ok. (((((hugs))) TT
Bo said
Aug 19, 2018
In my experience -- both with my AW, and with many people who I see in the rooms who are married to an alcoholic -- is they get caught up in the analysis. They are trying to rationalize and make sense of what the alcoholic's thought process is, what they doing and thinking, and why they are doing and thinking it. Before you know it, you are in a "rationalization negotiation"...with an alcoholic!!! How's that working for you?"
Sometimes it becomes another form of trying to fix it -- at least make it more bearable, vis a vis the alcoholic. It is my responsibility to own and improve, and make my life better. Bottom line for me -- if the alcoholic is not going to own their drinking and the impact it has on me, the family...then that means they want what they want, and that's to continue, status quo, and they want to keep drinking, and they want me to be OK with it. Right. OK. NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES...and I am asking them to change?
If my peace, happiness, whatever...is contingent, relies on, will happen...IF the alcoholic will _____________ (fill in the blank)...then I am in deep trouble. I better be prepared to not find and attain my peace, happiness and whatever else I want out of life.
Sounds to me like this is shopping for bread in a hardware store. Talking to an alcoholic, trying to have a meaningful, important conversation, while they are drinking...and trying to get him to understand the impact his drinking has had? And his family probably won't accept him quitting? And the biggest, loudest, screaming at me point is...HE THINKS you should up your tolerance? HE WANTS you to accept his drinking? For me, that says it all.
Nothing changes if nothing changes...and the only thing you can change is YOU. I guess you have to decide if you want to change and "up your tolerance" and "accept his drinking".
DavidG said
Aug 19, 2018
Yes An.
When I was 14 or 15 I had a glass of beer- and a much older male said to me: "that will put hairs on your chest".
I was my passage into adulthood- and also supposed to be my passport into friendly company.
When was was 21- and supposed to be getting "my key to the door" I lost two uncle to suicide. Both big drinkers. Not much of a ritual awakening. ...
Breaking away from family and friends can be traumatic and isolating. For me that is fearful beyond measure. But, for me I went through all that, and am glad ah did.
At about age 25 to 35 many male partners quit 'hanging out with the boys' but some don't. If drinking is a part of the scene, then this may be the road to alcoholism.
In Alanon, I believe we support each other making our best decisions and giving serious decisions "our best shot".
Beyond that point we continue to offer unqualified support. ...
I was told that "this is a selfish programme". I don't actually believe that. I was never ever nasty mean and selfish.
I believed, for myself- not to be self-centred, but centred on self. Taking care of me. Taking care of those closest to me- and needing me most- the kids.
Because when the kids are grown up and gone, I am left with me.
I water and weed plants- easy peasy... but do I know how to tend to me? This is what I mean by being 'centred on self'.
el-cee said
Aug 20, 2018
Too right. They can be very good. Drunk people and passing the responsibility to others to accept unacceptable behaviour. Illogical of course he was drinking. We can't expect logic from drunk people or we become extra crazy.
I do remember feeling very different from his friends and I blamed myself for being unable to accept his drinking the way others did. This self blame left me with some self talk that still lingers for me. That I'm boring, too serious, can't join in and have a laugh. This was incorrect belief systems that stuck and I'm still working to undo many of my false beliefs.The truth of course was that he wanted and needed to continue drinking the way he was and he needed to have a story rolling that this was ok and kind of normal and he needs you to go along with that particular lie all in order for the drinking to go on relatively in interrupted. It's basic when you can see it. The challenge for you is to learn about this disease. Trying to normalize it with false evidence that his friends enjoy his company etc. It's unlikely the friends will be around much longer if his disease is progressing. It's too much to put up with. Learning about the disease in alanon was my biggest protection against denial.
KT2015 said
Aug 20, 2018
Hi A Nother,
I can so relate to your post. I am sure I have had similar conversations with my AH in the past. It sounds like something that would have happened at my kitchen table.
In my marriage and my life I have decided not to focus on the drinking any longer. I think I really felt this decision in my bones at the beginning of the summer and it has really held. For me focusing on his drinking looked like this. Counting his drinks, counting his empties, letting him know the next day how much he drank and getting into an argument because he didn't believe or agree with me. Watching him drinking, trying to gauge his level of drunkenness when I got home from being out. Trying to estimate how much he was drinking in "Secret". Trying to run interference at social events when he was acting ridiculously or saying things that would upset others. Trying to convince him to stop drinking and threatening to leave but not leaving. Dreading Friday evenings because he would come home early and drink. Constantly thinking about his drinking "is it a problem, is it not a problem? Is it progressing? When is enough enough?". Helping him hide his drinking from my child and his parents. Losing sleep thinking about his drinking. All of this made me into a very miserable individual. My AH would constantly say that his drinking wasn't a problem for him and that I was too uptight.
Making this decision to stop focusing on his drinking wasn't for him.....it was for me. I realized I had turned into someone I didn't want to be. I mean I was literally monitoring the recycle bin to try to figure out how much he was drinking. I was miserable and angry and bitter a lot of the time. I think going through the period of focusing on his drinking was a necessary part of the process for me. I always knew something was wrong in our marriage but it took me a long time to realize it was alcoholism. My husband continued to deny it, other people didn't really see it, and I would slip back into denial about it. I think by focusing on his drinking it was my way of proving to myself I wasn't crazy when I felt like he was trying to convince me I was. But now I am fully convinced of my own sanity so this need to "prove" he's got a problem isn't helpful anymore (it was probably never helpful).
This decision has been so freeing. I have so much less to worry about. I don't have to monitor things. If he runs into an awkward social situation I let him handle it and he learns from it. I don't hide his drinking from others I am no longer embarrassed about it. It is his drinking and behaviour not mine. He's an adult he can manage it. I'm no longer the middle woman between him and friends, him and family, him and his kid. I hated that role and others got angry at me in that role so I'm happy to let people sort things out themselves. If he's really intoxicated and difficult to talk to I excuse myself to go home or to another room and read a book etc. My life is much more peaceful. I have time to focus on the things that are good for me. Thanks to my meetings and my program I know how to put the focus on myself and take care of myself. I go to the gym three times a week because I love it, I get more sleep than I ever did before, I enjoy cooking and am cooking fun and healthy meals in the evenings, I have caught up with old friends and most importantly I am living my life. That is the gift this program has given me and that I am eternally grateful for. I now know how to live my own life, trust myself and find joy and gratitude in my daily life.
I still address issues as they arise and let him know if his behaviour has affected me. I don't pretend he doesn't drink or ignore the drinking I have just decided to treat him like the adult he is who is responsible for it. I have found my balance and I am much happier.
A side note on the whole "other wives" comment. We never know what is the hearts and minds of other people. For example. My husband and I have a couple we have friends with. Her husband drinks a lot too. If we get together to chat for coffee she talks often about how much rage she has toward her husband and his behaviour, his drinking, his lack of responsibility etc. To my husband she appears to be one of those wives.
Keep coming back and I found attending meetings so important for me to grasp the program and guide me toward a better life for myself.
Aloha said
Aug 20, 2018
How convenient for him to make you responsible for his behavior.
I hope you see the BS when its presented to you.
I echo Betty - trying to have a logical conversation with an illogical (drunk) person is an exercise in futility.
Keep getting to your meetings. There's love and support for you there, and no one there is going to tell you that you're responsible for how they behave or feel.
A nother said
Aug 20, 2018
Thanks for the responses. I definitely need to do a lot more to bring the focus back to me! There are so many strands to recovery. I find it difficult at the moment to keep focused on one thing, which is odd because all of the strands are about keeping the focus on me!! I'm trying to take one day at a time, find gratitude, accept that I am powerless over alcohol and run through the ways in which I have felt that my life has become unmanageable.
I'm trying not to monitor his drinking and to put in place measures to protect myself when he is drinking.
But actually, whilst doing all of these things I feel as though I spend more time than ever before thinking about his drinking!
I have a meeting tonight. I will NOT cry!
Iamhere said
Aug 20, 2018
A Nother - so good to hear you have a meeting tonight to attend.....it is OK if you do cry! It happens all the time. This disease is powerful, baffling and progressive - I believe crying is one natural way to release the stress and anxiety caused my 'life' events - esp. this disease. Showing up is half the battle. You are doing great and remember always it's just one day at a time! (((Hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
Aug 20, 2018
Aloha wrote:
How convenient for him to make you responsible for his behavior.
I hope you see the BS when its presented to you.
I echo Betty - trying to have a logical conversation with an illogical (drunk) person is an exercise in futility.
Keep getting to your meetings. There's love and support for you there, and no one there is going to tell you that you're responsible for how they behave or feel.
Exactly this .. I was glad to read that you are moving back into the focus on you .. something to remember is the disease wants what the disease wants and that's to continue to fester and thrive. Until he admits there is a problem that is on HIM. You on the other hand can admit you have a problem which trying to control, rationalize and outwit, as well as reason your way around addiction .. ain't gonna happen.
I am powerless over other people, places, and things (including addiction). I can only control me and my responses to these situations. That's where my power is and it is ok to say .. I hear you and move on.
Please fill your own cup because it is not your responsibility to fill someone else's cup. It's a bottomless pit to do so.
Hugs S :)
Green Eyes said
Aug 20, 2018
There is so much to say about this post. I would drill it down to, "When nothing happens, nothing happens."
The alcoholic (and that's up to him to decide if he is or not) is going to go what he/or she is going to do. Now, what are you going to do?
Sending you lots of ESH! I've walked in your shoes and know how hard this can be. But it can get better, if YOU choose to change what YOU can change.
GE
Bo said
Aug 20, 2018
I keep coming back to a few things -- one, check your motives. Talking to an alcoholic spouse, more specifically having this type of discussion, to what end? Forget about him -- look at YOU. To what end for YOU?
h her all th
Two, am I contributing to overall situation by having this conversation with an alcoholic spouse? I know when I was doing this -- and this was before I found recovery -- my answer was YES...I was contributing. While I could do or say anything under the guise of "expressing my feelings" and "say what I mean, mean what I say, and don't say it mean" and whatever else I want to call it...I was still having a discussion, a logical discussion, coming from a place of intellect, health, well being, and so on...I was still having that discussion with a person who -- is an alcoholic, was drinking, who I had to walk on eggshells with, who I had to be careful with, who is not logical, who is not coming from a place of intellect, health, and well being. And here I was trying to do this. Am I shopping for bread in a hardware store? Nothing changes if nothing changes. Am I in denial about what I am doing and why I am doing it? My role, my contribution...that's my circus and my monkeys...so that's on and about ME.
Lastly, if you always do what you've done...you will always get what you got. My wife too tried to explain to me that I should be OK with her drinking. I needed to not have such a rigid view, problematic view, of her drinking. So, this entire thing -- it's not her drinking...it's my standards and my expectations that are the problem!!! Ohhhh, OK, I get it now. Pardon me for not understanding this...and I am sorry I didn't see this from the beginning. LOL.
So in order to avoid problems, arguments, fights, incidents, and whatever else...I HAD TO CHANGE AND BE OK WITH HER DRINKING!
His family probably won't accept him quitting and he values his friendships highly. My wife said to me that her family didn't think she had a problem and also said she shouldn't have to and didn't have to quit drinking. They would also drink with her all the time. My wife also said that her friends didn't think she had a problem, would drink with her all the time, and they also said there is no reason for her to quit. My wife told me countless times that ALL of the other husbands didn't even pay attention to their wives' drinking, or anyone else's, and I shouldn't be the alcohol police. That's what I became in her eyes -- the alcohol police. Before recovery I remember telling her I wasn't and I didn't need to be...because the real police already knew her and her drinking all too well. No, that comment didn't go over very well, and the result was a broken, very expensive Lladro piece! I remember her saying that I shouldn't be "watching her" and how much she was drinking. I wasn't. I was just dealing with the aftermath, the fall out, the collateral damage. She didn't think there was any.
So, all these things considered -- it was up to me to be OK with all of this. Because, everyone else, her family, her friends, the other husbands -- and my wife -- all of them were OK with this. So I had to be as well.
For me, my thinking, my perspective...and my experience...alanon was not designed to teach me how to be OK with all of this. So, I focused on what alanon was designed to teach me. What it was designed to help me with, what it was supposed to, could and would accomplish for me. Nothing changes if nothing changes...and that is about me. Only I can change me. I can't change anyone else...and I ain't trying!!! I am honest about that. I don't care if she thinks this or that. Her statements, her position, the discussion that took place...all of that is...EXCUSES, DENIAL, DEFLECTION, and more so that she could still drink.
Having your husband ask you "to put up with it" -- and one reason being is because other wives are more tolerant than me, or he's heard that is the case -- it is not just unreasonable in my experience. It is ludicrous. Absolutely. Positively. It is egregious. It is warped. It is a sick excuse coming from a sick person. That was my experience in not only my marriage, but in alanon.
Take what you like and leave the rest. That may not be a principle here...but it certainly is in alanon.
mamalioness said
Aug 22, 2018
SerenityRUS wrote:
Please fill your own cup because it is not your responsibility to fill someone else's cup. It's a bottomless pit to do so.
Hugs S :)
Oh how true this is!!!! and oh i tried..the cup began a well and it was bottomless, as I tried to fill his cup, i let mine dry up...now I fell my own cup as Serenity so beautifully said here....its up to the ones in my life to fill their cups...now if one is trying, I am very happy to help a spirit who is trying to help themselves...but the key is "are they trying their damndest to help themselves???" I ask me that when a person, any person, asks me to do/give them something...check my motives...am i trying to influence them?? am I trying to "buy" their love/approval??? am I doing it so as to not rock the boat, but I really don't want to do it???? if my motives are not of pure love with zero expectations of any return, then I back off and think....I hope I didn't stray too much, but I kinda was moved to say the above, LOL....but yea, my brother, the lovable alcoholic, will walk his path, make his choices and I observe, but with loving detachment....I used to beg him to go to AA and sent him literature, etc., and when he got his DUI (drunk driving-suspended license- court ordered AA meets) he was forced to get into program...Soon as he "served his time" and got his license back, he was back drinking...He told me flat out...he does NOT want to quit drinking..this was about 2 years ago?? maybe more?? and it was the LAST time I mentioned recovery to him.....I backed off and butted out....sad, but I just have to accept things the way they are
Jozie said
Aug 23, 2018
Oh How I Can Relate to "How he Views it!"
When I was Younger and Quite the Drinker, I Remember My Sister (Also an A) Saying to me... "Do you think you Could make ONE Holiday that your Not Hung Over Or Drunk!" at the time I Remember saying.. "I Probably Could, but I Guess you know It's Not Happening any time Soon!" I Was the One that Would say... "Tell me a Can't I'll Show you I Can..." But that Always was in Negative Experiences, Not Positive
When I Decided to Quit Drinking I had the Exact Kinda Friends as your AH... I was the Entertainment, the Laugh in the Crowd, the First one on the Dance floor and the Last one Leave, if Someone was Down, I Brought them Back up...My "Friends" Expected me to be the Party Saver more then Not!
I Can say from My Experience, that Conversation he had only proves the Point... I Could Tell you ALL The Reasons I had to Remain the Drunk... But I Couldn't find ONE Reason Not too... If your Happy... DRINK, If your Sad... DRINK, If there is a Celebration DRINK, if there is an Accident/Funeral... DRINK... because Drinking Made Me Feel Like I was Doing My Part...I Could Sit on My Pity Pot at the Bar, and Cry about my Woo's and Someone would Mix me another Drink and Nod...
When HP Spoke to me on Oct. 28th 2010, I had to Change EVERYTHING about my Existence And that Included Leaving my "Good time Friends" Behind till I Could Get a Handle on my Sobriety... It was WORK, It was a HUGE Struggle, but I Truly in my Heart of Hearts WANTED to be a Better Mom, Better Wife, Better Daughter, Sister, Aunt, Grandma, Step-Mom... and In Doing So, I Lost ALOT of "Friends & FAMILY!" Because to Them... 'I Was Breaking Family Traditions!' How Could I NOT Drink with the Siblings, & Friends... HOW DARE I...
But that is Indeed MY Story, but if I was to Leave Anything with you, Know that It CAN & WILL Get better, if you Continue to Work your Program, You Continue to KEEP COMING BACK, Even if You CRY All thru it, that isn't the Important Part, the Important part is You Keep Showing Up, I've been in this Program for 10 years, and if I Need to Cry... I Do it, and I Still Get the Same Love, Support, and Hugs from My Al-Anon Family... Don't be ashamed of Crying, You are Human and it Only Shows you have Compassion, and Emotions you need to Work out... Its Your Makeup so Own it..
And Don't Beat yourself up, You are Doing Great... Your Coming here, Your Going to Meetings, your Sharing your Struggles, you Starting New Habits like Practicing how to Take care of Yourself, and it does feel Heavy sometimes, and sometimes it may feel like your Not Making Progress, but I Promise you, You are... So Glad your Here...
You Are WORTH Happily Ever After... Regardless of what that Looks Like to You :)
Please Take what you Like and Leave the Rest :)
Prayers & Hugs
Jozie
Maresie said
Aug 23, 2018
My expectations were always way off for myself and to others. Completely out there
My ah and I talked last night. He was drinking again and I tried to be neutral and avoid the nastys.
He explained to me that he thinks we have different expectations in this marriage when it comes to drinking. I have a low tolerance to his drunken behaviour and he has a higher tolerance of drunken behaviour in general. He thinks that if I upped my tolerance he would feel less inclined to ''react' to my objections.
I think I see where he is coming from. If I accept his drinking is part of him then there will be fewer horrible occasions.
He is from a big drinking family who probably won't accept him quitting. He has friends who don't really have alcohol issues in my opinion, but they like to get drunk with him, and when he goes over the edge they are entertained by him. He values these friendships highly. They are old friends and I understand that there is value there.
But still, I don't feel like I can live with this anymore, and what's more, I think his disease is progressing. He drinks loads on his own. At one time his big drunken binges were only at social events. I feel like him asking me to put up with it (because he's heard that other wives are more tolerant than me) is unreasonable and illogical.
It's very true the disease progresses. It's also true the A is the last one to 'see' this. It's also true that most alcoholics will not seek solutions until they've hit their own bottom, and nobody knows exactly what that might be. We also hit a bottom and it's at that point when we seek help, support and our own recovery.
Our program suggests we keep the focus on us, and try to not live life or make decisions based on what they are/are not doing. (((Hugs))) - it's a progressive, painful disease and hard on us when we begin to realize the person we love is changed by the disease. Keep coming back!
The slogan keep the focus on me, and keep it simple come to mind when I read your post also letting go and letting your higher power. Keep coming back because this does work. In support, always
The responses to your post are right on especially from the simplicity of Betty's which also became my experience, to the others. I am convinced again over and over that the solutions are in the program. From my way of listening he is using blame to try to control you and also revealing the progressive, insane nature of the disease of Alcoholism. You may yet arrive at your solutions and my experience is that you will find help with consistent attending to our program before any other decisions regarding a future. Keep coming back cause this works when we work it. ((((hugs))))
I hope you will continue to put your own life and well-being first. Your husband is not ready to give up drinking. No problem for him. He's getting a lot of mileage out of it. He's the "lovable" alcoholic clown for his friends, yay him! My recovering abf once told me that all his friendships were based on drinking. Since sobriety, he has not heard one peep from these so called friends. It's because these were superficial friendship based on drinking, an event, the good old days (which really were they that good?), etc. At first he missed these guys but realized he could play softball, golf, fish etc. with non drinking alcoholics.In AA he made new friends to do things with, play sports, socialize, attend AA family get togethers etc. It's not a boys club. Wives, gfs and kids are welcomed. Recovering A who haven't been rejected by family are glad to have them around. Sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is a family affair.
I hope you'll keep with your meetings and grow your network in the Alanon community. We also have our get togethers as "the family of choice." In my humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your disinterest in having an active alcoholic sharing your daily life. As was already stated the disease continues to progress which means continuing to update your boundaries to keep emotionally, physically, spiritually and economically safe. Personally, I found no serenity in having to always be on the defensive and the occassional healthy emotional scrap that was thrown in my direction (they were few and then fewer as the disease progressed). It felt very sad for me to come to the revelation that I needed build a Plan B instead continuing in a marriage with one participant. This is simply my experience so please take what you like and leave the rest.
I hope you find the answers that are best for you. Recovery can open so many wonderful new doors. I hope your husband through the grace of his higher power will find the willingness to try. Either way, if you stick by others in Alanon and your hp you will continue to be ok. (((((hugs))) TT
Sometimes it becomes another form of trying to fix it -- at least make it more bearable, vis a vis the alcoholic. It is my responsibility to own and improve, and make my life better. Bottom line for me -- if the alcoholic is not going to own their drinking and the impact it has on me, the family...then that means they want what they want, and that's to continue, status quo, and they want to keep drinking, and they want me to be OK with it. Right. OK. NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES...and I am asking them to change?
If my peace, happiness, whatever...is contingent, relies on, will happen...IF the alcoholic will _____________ (fill in the blank)...then I am in deep trouble. I better be prepared to not find and attain my peace, happiness and whatever else I want out of life.
Sounds to me like this is shopping for bread in a hardware store. Talking to an alcoholic, trying to have a meaningful, important conversation, while they are drinking...and trying to get him to understand the impact his drinking has had? And his family probably won't accept him quitting? And the biggest, loudest, screaming at me point is...HE THINKS you should up your tolerance? HE WANTS you to accept his drinking? For me, that says it all.
Nothing changes if nothing changes...and the only thing you can change is YOU. I guess you have to decide if you want to change and "up your tolerance" and "accept his drinking".
Yes An.
When I was 14 or 15 I had a glass of beer- and a much older male said to me: "that will put hairs on your chest".
I was my passage into adulthood- and also supposed to be my passport into friendly company.
When was was 21- and supposed to be getting "my key to the door" I lost two uncle to suicide. Both big drinkers. Not much of a ritual awakening.
...
Breaking away from family and friends can be traumatic and isolating. For me that is fearful beyond measure. But, for me I went through all that, and am glad ah did.
At about age 25 to 35 many male partners quit 'hanging out with the boys' but some don't. If drinking is a part of the scene, then this may be the road to alcoholism.
In Alanon, I believe we support each other making our best decisions and giving serious decisions "our best shot".
Beyond that point we continue to offer unqualified support.
...
I was told that "this is a selfish programme". I don't actually believe that. I was never ever nasty mean and selfish.
I believed, for myself- not to be self-centred, but centred on self. Taking care of me. Taking care of those closest to me- and needing me most- the kids.
Because when the kids are grown up and gone, I am left with me.
I water and weed plants- easy peasy... but do I know how to tend to me? This is what I mean by being 'centred on self'.
I can so relate to your post. I am sure I have had similar conversations with my AH in the past. It sounds like something that would have happened at my kitchen table.
In my marriage and my life I have decided not to focus on the drinking any longer. I think I really felt this decision in my bones at the beginning of the summer and it has really held. For me focusing on his drinking looked like this. Counting his drinks, counting his empties, letting him know the next day how much he drank and getting into an argument because he didn't believe or agree with me. Watching him drinking, trying to gauge his level of drunkenness when I got home from being out. Trying to estimate how much he was drinking in "Secret". Trying to run interference at social events when he was acting ridiculously or saying things that would upset others. Trying to convince him to stop drinking and threatening to leave but not leaving. Dreading Friday evenings because he would come home early and drink. Constantly thinking about his drinking "is it a problem, is it not a problem? Is it progressing? When is enough enough?". Helping him hide his drinking from my child and his parents. Losing sleep thinking about his drinking. All of this made me into a very miserable individual. My AH would constantly say that his drinking wasn't a problem for him and that I was too uptight.
Making this decision to stop focusing on his drinking wasn't for him.....it was for me. I realized I had turned into someone I didn't want to be. I mean I was literally monitoring the recycle bin to try to figure out how much he was drinking. I was miserable and angry and bitter a lot of the time. I think going through the period of focusing on his drinking was a necessary part of the process for me. I always knew something was wrong in our marriage but it took me a long time to realize it was alcoholism. My husband continued to deny it, other people didn't really see it, and I would slip back into denial about it. I think by focusing on his drinking it was my way of proving to myself I wasn't crazy when I felt like he was trying to convince me I was. But now I am fully convinced of my own sanity so this need to "prove" he's got a problem isn't helpful anymore (it was probably never helpful).
This decision has been so freeing. I have so much less to worry about. I don't have to monitor things. If he runs into an awkward social situation I let him handle it and he learns from it. I don't hide his drinking from others I am no longer embarrassed about it. It is his drinking and behaviour not mine. He's an adult he can manage it. I'm no longer the middle woman between him and friends, him and family, him and his kid. I hated that role and others got angry at me in that role so I'm happy to let people sort things out themselves. If he's really intoxicated and difficult to talk to I excuse myself to go home or to another room and read a book etc. My life is much more peaceful. I have time to focus on the things that are good for me. Thanks to my meetings and my program I know how to put the focus on myself and take care of myself. I go to the gym three times a week because I love it, I get more sleep than I ever did before, I enjoy cooking and am cooking fun and healthy meals in the evenings, I have caught up with old friends and most importantly I am living my life. That is the gift this program has given me and that I am eternally grateful for. I now know how to live my own life, trust myself and find joy and gratitude in my daily life.
I still address issues as they arise and let him know if his behaviour has affected me. I don't pretend he doesn't drink or ignore the drinking I have just decided to treat him like the adult he is who is responsible for it. I have found my balance and I am much happier.
A side note on the whole "other wives" comment. We never know what is the hearts and minds of other people. For example. My husband and I have a couple we have friends with. Her husband drinks a lot too. If we get together to chat for coffee she talks often about how much rage she has toward her husband and his behaviour, his drinking, his lack of responsibility etc. To my husband she appears to be one of those wives.
Keep coming back and I found attending meetings so important for me to grasp the program and guide me toward a better life for myself.
I hope you see the BS when its presented to you.
I echo Betty - trying to have a logical conversation with an illogical (drunk) person is an exercise in futility.
Keep getting to your meetings. There's love and support for you there, and no one there is going to tell you that you're responsible for how they behave or feel.
I'm trying not to monitor his drinking and to put in place measures to protect myself when he is drinking.
But actually, whilst doing all of these things I feel as though I spend more time than ever before thinking about his drinking!
I have a meeting tonight. I will NOT cry!
Exactly this .. I was glad to read that you are moving back into the focus on you .. something to remember is the disease wants what the disease wants and that's to continue to fester and thrive. Until he admits there is a problem that is on HIM. You on the other hand can admit you have a problem which trying to control, rationalize and outwit, as well as reason your way around addiction .. ain't gonna happen.
I am powerless over other people, places, and things (including addiction). I can only control me and my responses to these situations. That's where my power is and it is ok to say .. I hear you and move on.
Please fill your own cup because it is not your responsibility to fill someone else's cup. It's a bottomless pit to do so.
Hugs S :)
The alcoholic (and that's up to him to decide if he is or not) is going to go what he/or she is going to do. Now, what are you going to do?
Sending you lots of ESH! I've walked in your shoes and know how hard this can be. But it can get better, if YOU choose to change what YOU can change.
GE
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Two, am I contributing to overall situation by having this conversation with an alcoholic spouse? I know when I was doing this -- and this was before I found recovery -- my answer was YES...I was contributing. While I could do or say anything under the guise of "expressing my feelings" and "say what I mean, mean what I say, and don't say it mean" and whatever else I want to call it...I was still having a discussion, a logical discussion, coming from a place of intellect, health, well being, and so on...I was still having that discussion with a person who -- is an alcoholic, was drinking, who I had to walk on eggshells with, who I had to be careful with, who is not logical, who is not coming from a place of intellect, health, and well being. And here I was trying to do this. Am I shopping for bread in a hardware store? Nothing changes if nothing changes. Am I in denial about what I am doing and why I am doing it? My role, my contribution...that's my circus and my monkeys...so that's on and about ME.
Lastly, if you always do what you've done...you will always get what you got. My wife too tried to explain to me that I should be OK with her drinking. I needed to not have such a rigid view, problematic view, of her drinking. So, this entire thing -- it's not her drinking...it's my standards and my expectations that are the problem!!! Ohhhh, OK, I get it now. Pardon me for not understanding this...and I am sorry I didn't see this from the beginning. LOL.
So in order to avoid problems, arguments, fights, incidents, and whatever else...I HAD TO CHANGE AND BE OK WITH HER DRINKING!
His family probably won't accept him quitting and he values his friendships highly. My wife said to me that her family didn't think she had a problem and also said she shouldn't have to and didn't have to quit drinking. They would also drink with her all the time. My wife also said that her friends didn't think she had a problem, would drink with her all the time, and they also said there is no reason for her to quit. My wife told me countless times that ALL of the other husbands didn't even pay attention to their wives' drinking, or anyone else's, and I shouldn't be the alcohol police. That's what I became in her eyes -- the alcohol police. Before recovery I remember telling her I wasn't and I didn't need to be...because the real police already knew her and her drinking all too well. No, that comment didn't go over very well, and the result was a broken, very expensive Lladro piece! I remember her saying that I shouldn't be "watching her" and how much she was drinking. I wasn't. I was just dealing with the aftermath, the fall out, the collateral damage. She didn't think there was any.
So, all these things considered -- it was up to me to be OK with all of this. Because, everyone else, her family, her friends, the other husbands -- and my wife -- all of them were OK with this. So I had to be as well.
For me, my thinking, my perspective...and my experience...alanon was not designed to teach me how to be OK with all of this. So, I focused on what alanon was designed to teach me. What it was designed to help me with, what it was supposed to, could and would accomplish for me. Nothing changes if nothing changes...and that is about me. Only I can change me. I can't change anyone else...and I ain't trying!!! I am honest about that. I don't care if she thinks this or that. Her statements, her position, the discussion that took place...all of that is...EXCUSES, DENIAL, DEFLECTION, and more so that she could still drink.
Having your husband ask you "to put up with it" -- and one reason being is because other wives are more tolerant than me, or he's heard that is the case -- it is not just unreasonable in my experience. It is ludicrous. Absolutely. Positively. It is egregious. It is warped. It is a sick excuse coming from a sick person. That was my experience in not only my marriage, but in alanon.
Take what you like and leave the rest. That may not be a principle here...but it certainly is in alanon.
Oh how true this is!!!! and oh i tried..the cup began a well and it was bottomless, as I tried to fill his cup, i let mine dry up...now I fell my own cup as Serenity so beautifully said here....its up to the ones in my life to fill their cups...now if one is trying, I am very happy to help a spirit who is trying to help themselves...but the key is "are they trying their damndest to help themselves???" I ask me that when a person, any person, asks me to do/give them something...check my motives...am i trying to influence them?? am I trying to "buy" their love/approval??? am I doing it so as to not rock the boat, but I really don't want to do it???? if my motives are not of pure love with zero expectations of any return, then I back off and think....I hope I didn't stray too much, but I kinda was moved to say the above, LOL....but yea, my brother, the lovable alcoholic, will walk his path, make his choices and I observe, but with loving detachment....I used to beg him to go to AA and sent him literature, etc., and when he got his DUI (drunk driving-suspended license- court ordered AA meets) he was forced to get into program...Soon as he "served his time" and got his license back, he was back drinking...He told me flat out...he does NOT want to quit drinking..this was about 2 years ago?? maybe more?? and it was the LAST time I mentioned recovery to him.....I backed off and butted out....sad, but I just have to accept things the way they are
When I was Younger and Quite the Drinker, I Remember My Sister (Also an A) Saying to me... "Do you think you Could make ONE Holiday that your Not Hung Over Or Drunk!" at the time I Remember saying.. "I Probably Could, but I Guess you know It's Not Happening any time Soon!" I Was the One that Would say... "Tell me a Can't I'll Show you I Can..." But that Always was in Negative Experiences, Not Positive
When I Decided to Quit Drinking I had the Exact Kinda Friends as your AH... I was the Entertainment, the Laugh in the Crowd, the First one on the Dance floor and the Last one Leave, if Someone was Down, I Brought them Back up...My "Friends" Expected me to be the Party Saver more then Not!
I Can say from My Experience, that Conversation he had only proves the Point... I Could Tell you ALL The Reasons I had to Remain the Drunk... But I Couldn't find ONE Reason Not too... If your Happy... DRINK, If your Sad... DRINK, If there is a Celebration DRINK, if there is an Accident/Funeral... DRINK... because Drinking Made Me Feel Like I was Doing My Part...I Could Sit on My Pity Pot at the Bar, and Cry about my Woo's and Someone would Mix me another Drink and Nod...
When HP Spoke to me on Oct. 28th 2010, I had to Change EVERYTHING about my Existence And that Included Leaving my "Good time Friends" Behind till I Could Get a Handle on my Sobriety... It was WORK, It was a HUGE Struggle, but I Truly in my Heart of Hearts WANTED to be a Better Mom, Better Wife, Better Daughter, Sister, Aunt, Grandma, Step-Mom... and In Doing So, I Lost ALOT of "Friends & FAMILY!" Because to Them... 'I Was Breaking Family Traditions!' How Could I NOT Drink with the Siblings, & Friends... HOW DARE I...
But that is Indeed MY Story, but if I was to Leave Anything with you, Know that It CAN & WILL Get better, if you Continue to Work your Program, You Continue to KEEP COMING BACK, Even if You CRY All thru it, that isn't the Important Part, the Important part is You Keep Showing Up, I've been in this Program for 10 years, and if I Need to Cry... I Do it, and I Still Get the Same Love, Support, and Hugs from My Al-Anon Family... Don't be ashamed of Crying, You are Human and it Only Shows you have Compassion, and Emotions you need to Work out... Its Your Makeup so Own it..
And Don't Beat yourself up, You are Doing Great... Your Coming here, Your Going to Meetings, your Sharing your Struggles, you Starting New Habits like Practicing how to Take care of Yourself, and it does feel Heavy sometimes, and sometimes it may feel like your Not Making Progress, but I Promise you, You are... So Glad your Here...
You Are WORTH Happily Ever After... Regardless of what that Looks Like to You :)
Please Take what you Like and Leave the Rest :)
Prayers & Hugs
Jozie