I thought I had posted about this over the years and then all of my prior post have been eliminated as if I never existed...what a wish heh?  

I use to work as a BHT, Behavioral Health Therapist in a Recovery Program that gave service to individual addicts and alcoholics and their families; group and one on one.  Mental Health was somewhere else and we didn't use gyms or spas either.  I always told my clients "I don't care what you think, you're here to change your behaviors because that is what is causing you problems."  That times the client would rebel because some wanted the powerful, diagnosis names to be proud about and then they got me who came to believe thru education and practice (much from inside the program) that if you can change your behaviors, your thinking would follow and then your emotions.  Things go well in your life you feel well in your life and about yourself.  Things go bad, you feel bad and then helping them to actuate their powers of/to change got them examples they could trust.  

The thoughts and emotions followed and their lives got restored better.

Seeking a counselor or therapist?  Ask them if they do Behavioral Healthy Therapy.   By the way it is cheaper cause often we don't use drugs.  YAY!!  (((hugs))) 

"I don't care what you think, you're here to change your behaviors because that is what is causing you problems."

hahaha!!! That is GREAT.

Yes, if our thinking is sick and we're in to seek help with our thinking, then many we should stop thinking and start listening.

Good share, Jerry,

                           I went to a treatment centre reunion this year. It was great since AA, Alanon, ACA, NA, CODA OA and others all get to share together. We all get to experience our commonality.  ...

Is it the same in the USA? Alanon and AA here have joint assemblies- but none of the other 12 step traditions?

There is a lot I could say abou my own experience in the treatment arena. What I think about it in general.

In theory the clinical scene and 12 Step groups should work together, in tandem- that being true- it is always a good topic of discussion in our groups...

our old treatment centre in AoNZ is long closed down.... Dealing with the illness- in terms of policy, resources, liasion, networking... is really important- essential. And Alanon plays a part in this- as a self help organisation.

I don't think we talk about it enough- maybe because people are uncertain of the boundaries...

...so then- we may have to create the boundaries.

6 or so years ago we had the CEO of Alanon over here- and he met with members of the southern most Alanon assembly. The way he approached this task- gave me a bead on what the boundaries might be... I learned heaps... so i am not scared...

of what to talk about and what not to...

he miharo ki a koe; ata marie.

Ata marie is 'good morning", or peaceful morning...

PS I lived close to the homeless when ah hit the city... getting out of that hole- I became a volunteer- saw it all... still looking for solutions...  ...

I was like everyone else coming thru the doors of Al-Anon and then I just had no idea how anything worked...I had to sit still and listen listen listen and then practice practice practice.  The elders were right when they talked about changing behaviors first and then the thinking and feelings would change after.  Still I didn't believe deeply and came to understand more after college and then joining the practice of Group Therapy as a therapist.  Wow the Changes!!  The elders were right.  (((hugs)))  

lookingup wrote:

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A bht told me one time ,I could act my way into thinking,if I couldn't think my way into it

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thank you lookingup...Love this!!! soo simple yet hard....i'm doing the cognitive behavior therapy on my own..researched on the net, etc., can't afford a real therapist, so I research and just practice practice better behavior..hoping my mind will follow...for the longest time, I thought I could "change my thinking--change my life"  well the 12 steps helps with the thinking, but I see, now, it is ACTION that is gonna get it for me...like Pavlov's dog, I must train me like I do my dogs....and that is repitition over and over the better approach...reading this thread has given me a new and hopeful perspective on how to change the undesirable parts of me....

 Hmmm... I really do think it comes as a package.

Emotions came first for me. And "Altered Attitudes Aid Recovery".

And the spiritual dimension- favoured by AA- depth psychology- Carl Jung.

We do need to act on all these things- make changes... willpower. We are power-less.

I believed that AA replaced the camaraderie of the bar. So Alanon helped break down the isolation and the stigma of the disease.

So group work is essential too.

I will be on this thread for a while because it is filled with experience I had after I stopped fighting the elders and sponsors and spirit of our program...I remember the night I just gave up fighting this and the whole body, mind and spirit change I felt a second later.  Jerry F was done...completely done and I became ready, willing and able to practice "Acting as if".  I was already good at walking any form of convenient bs which was a personality type of the alcoholic and alcoholic family and switching the focus became a no-brainer.  All I had to do was not want to die insane.  I had enough.  Mahalo ke Akua...Thank you God so very much.   (((hugs)))  

Temple thanks for the one up...So much of my changing out of reaction came as a result of learning how to respond instead and the difference was taking some time to think about the situation or issue first before taking action.  Certainly a keep it simple reprogramming.  DUH!!  I was given and taught that by others who were doing it habitually at the time and by God it worked.  Now one of my most useful slogans and thought forces is "Don't react" and "When in doubt?   Don't".  

Rose you have a  way of expressing thoughts and feelings which for me become more easily clear I keep thinking that is a Higher Power thingy.  I am kinda mucky and then glad I can rely on others like yourself to make it right.  (((hugs))) 

 Jerry,

         this is a different topic, Jerry- related to the thread about- about children's intuition-

not taking away from the share up there...  ... as a kid I believed that the adults around me were drinking poison!

This was based on the end result- they went into a funk and a stupour... and their behaviour changed- sometimes markedly.

Drinking was supposed to be suave and sophisticated... but I my world I saw no dancing, singing, or merriment at all.

When I hear a race meeting being called [like an auctioneers call] it reminds me of those days- the most music I heard.

Not to say i am opposed to drinking, smoking or horse racing. They are all a lot of fun for a lot of people!

And that other stuff- smoking at about age 9- drinking at 15 or 16... buying an old car- and waiting for the girls to turn 16!

That was the world of the 50's and 60's. Lots of my generation wanted a different world- and some of that has been achieved...

"that will put hairs on your chest" is something someone told me- about beer. That is what I remember- time to man UP!  ...

Kia miharo... ae... -yes...  ...

Aloha Jerry,

Thank you for this post. So many need to hear a frank statement such as this but so many think that they don't want to hear it. I've been one of the many who didn't  want to hear the truth even as I knew I needed to.

(((hugs)))

David my drinking never put hair on me anywhere yet it did turn me a sickly yellow greenish jaundiced color.  My college studies told me how it did it and a female member of our program cued me that I wasn't jaundiced...I can learn...still.  Mahalo my mate.  (((hugs)))  

Jerry- I wrote this years ago- a true story. When I was 12 I got a paid job as a carrot boy. Our foreman was the local policeman. People said he never had to draw his police pay. I wa sin his car one day- and he got beer and whiskey- at the pub- for nothing... ...so there was no hope for my parents coming home and cooking a meal. In those days the law was pubs had to close at 6 pm.

At age 15 an AA member came to school and talked to us boys. I remember him fondly.

The last line of the poem- I did not realise the irony of the words- until much later...

WAITING FOR MY CHANGE.

On the high hill top we liked to stop

seeing for miles from the car's front seat-

from the town far down we could see the cop

as he cruised on his weekend beat.

If you paid your sub you drank at the pub

with the folk who stand at the bar

but you get the shove if you can't peer above

the steering wheel of a car.

So you go round the back, it's all right jack,

and gently knock on the door-

you pay your dough but the beer comes slow

in a crate unblessed by the law.

When the car next stops the tops come off

and the young guns set the pace.

The backseat skite blows out his light 

 in a sand flat drinking race.                                                                

With youth at its height we drink by night

by the light of the pine fringed moon-

then we go to a dance where the sheilas prance;

where the cop checks the car park soon.

He checks all the cars- those teenage bars

to see if a bottle can be found-

with his chore well done he spots not one-

-back to town to the old eiderdown.

There's not much fluff, nor a cheek that's rough

on the face of a small town boy-

the girls gad about so well turned out

but beer is the young man's joy.

Well the years go by- how time does fly

from the days that have gone before-

but my heart waits there, at the pub's back stair

 for my change at the pub's back door.

This tells me that you had vision David and the ability to express what and how you saw life, and at so young an age.   I am going to save this and copy it with your permission and keep the copy in my literature.  Thank you much.  

JerryF wrote:

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This tells me that you had vision David and the ability to express what and how you saw life, and at so young an age.   I am going to save this and copy it with your permission and keep the copy in my literature.  Thank you much.  

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  Yes, Jerry- surely- you are welcome...  ...

Alanon slowly evolves, and so does this board. I try to get back to the basic principles.

Here- it seems the person who starts the thread- moreor less chairs the topic...

changes in behaviour are essential, along with other basic shifts, along the way...

...how does this happen? Seeing other people modelling better behaviour is one. Willpower is another...

Alanon members could be divided into three broad groups- newcomers, middle stepper, and old timers.

in big cities old timers can club together and attend meetings where this is little disruption and change.

In our neck of the woods we have to cater for all three groupings. And after all Alanon will not survive without new members.

For me the bottom line is suffering. We do need to reach out to others who are still suffering.

Thank you for the poem I'm writing it down <3

Pol you got the same guidance I also got from my early sponsor and using the courage to change aspect of recovery I left my family or origin except for visits at time and let myself be adopted by Al-Anon and AA...it worked awesomely and my Family of Origin also benefited because I relieved them of the negative aspect I brought to the family.  My family of origin had concerns which I did not address except for my new found recovery.  Life is good and often miraculous.   ((((hugs)))) 

David, your poem was beautiful.....Loved reading it...WHAT a lad you were to write something so insightful and yet sensitive.....WOW!!!!