So my husband who is a problem drinker the other day majorly blew up at me. I had come back from gym in evening after working and he was drinking watching sports in front room with the kids (teens) and he was on the loud side. So I just went in back room, had dinner watched TV. My kids left to go out for a little bit after the game. I heard my husband on the phone with a family member just loud (nothing the person on other line would ever think was off). So i was happy minding my own business being in a separate room from him. Then he came in back room asking if I wanted to watch a certain TV show that we recorded. I wanted to say no because I knew he had been drinking and smelled and he talks at TV then...but I figured if I said no he would get mad. SO I said ok and went into front room and sat on another couch that was not near him (yes on purpose--I tried to play it sly that I was walking over to it responding to text then cooler in from of door..) So after 2 min he shuts off TV and starts laying into me "really you can't even sit next to me", then gets up starts waving his arms and pacing in out of room while yelling at me "I only had like one beer and you can't even sit next to me"..."I can't take this.". "you better decide on things" "you are over reacting" . I just let him rant. Then he went out to walk dog came back. "So you aren't going to say anything". I went to speak and he just cut me off. Finally he let me respond. I told him that I can not stand the smell from him after he has drank. I know that my sense of smell is on overdrive now in my menopause (I have heard from other women this happens)--and the smell of beer on him makes me nauseated, and yes when he has his loudness that makes me react emotionally. And I told him this before and gave him examples of how often I am upset by smells (not just his). So overtime he spoke he was loud and upset. He would try to talk about things and ask me to respond and I could see him trying to manipulate and get me so scattered to contradict myself. So then kids got home stayed outside because they could hear his loud voice. I told him lets carry this conversation on later when kids not around.
So next day we talked in morning--He said about how I don't want to be around him when he drinks and he's not drinking that much, I should be happy that his blood sugar reading are lower, that I don't respond to texts.. lots that has been building up for him. First thing I addressed was his laying into me--I told him that was not acceptable--if he is in control of himself and drinking then he has a choice of how to respond and that yelling and throwing up arms pacing is not appropriate, it is aggressive, it makes me fearful and that it makes me feel unsafe and untrusting being around him. All he did was acknowledge "I can see that". I said now that this has happened 2 times now and each time it makes me hard to trust him. Said nothing and no apology. Wee talked more. I said that I did not realize that him texting me that he had to go to a different city to catch the train to a game that I wasn't even going to was something I needed respond to. He said I don't respond often to his texts. I told him that at work I can't always and that some of his things I don;t think need a response--but that I will try to do so since this is important to him (omg I really think he is having issues). We talked about some other marriage like things but same conversation different day.
SO I guess here are some of my questions to you--I don't think he would ever hit me (that I have no problem calling police if he ever does). How do I handle it when he goes off? If I leave room he will get madder, so I just have to sit there and take it? (last time when I left the room he yelled "what are you going to do go call one of your alaonon friends?" (and yes I did). So am I just to sit there and take it? I did download a recording app so if I can next time I will record if able. And what do I do that I can't take the smell? Do I make up excuses and lies to not be near him? I hate living in this kids of fear/avaoidance area. I am doing some dance activities that presented themselves on Monday and Thursday evenings (free for 2 months) and I am thinking of pursuing them after the times up because they are fun and good exercise and bonus--will be on the nights of football so I can be out of house and then come back late and just go to bed. But I'm dreading him complaining about money. We'll see--just loving not being so near him when he;s drinking around sports.
So how do others do it? How do you continue to live in the same house with a drinker when the drinker gets upset that you don't want to be in same room as them or complains that you are always not there (which you are doing on purpose because they drink)?
Mattie said
Jul 25, 2018
This doesn't sound like a very sustainable situation to me. I really hate being controlled by someone's temper. And using their temper is how they try to control us.
Unlike many A's, my A wasn't a very angry person. When he did start getting into anger, I just couldn't be around it any more. I find it really poisonous. That was one among many reasons that things were so much more peaceful when I decided we should split up.
I think it's probably good for all of us who have an addict family member to have a Plan B in case things go bad. That might be the house of a friend who will take us in, even at a late hour. Or a motel room. Or our own little separate apartment, not on the premises, that the A doesn't have the key to. Or at least a car with some necessaries always stashed in the trunk, and a key always in our pocket.
For a while I tried the thing of doing what my A wanted, so as not to make a fuss. Going along with things even though I hated it. For me, it made for a really weird, false atmosphere. It was like I was in the middle of some kind of spy drama I couldn't get out of, where I couldn't ever be my real self. And I realized that that's no way to run a relationship. It's more like being a hostage than being a partner.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
Lost in Space said
Jul 25, 2018
Good for you on deciding on dancing lessons. I go to a dance house where I live (no alcohol) and have made so many new friends. Dancing is very fun, rewarding and yes, very good exercise. Physical exercise is wonderful for letting off steam, especially frustration. I remember oh so well (divorced 15 years) the horrible frustration of having to wake up in MY bed in MY room to the stench of alcohol. It was horrible and it was so unfair. I had three kids on the verge of moving out (late teens, early 20's) so I just asked him if he'd like to keep the house or would he rather I keep it. We walked around and took an inventory of all the furniture, decided who would get what and he left. Oh how I wish I had done that 20 years before! I never felt so free, so empowered. I had finally done something healthy for myself and my kids. We were ALL relieved and now we are still good friends. He is remarried and his wife calls me her "wife in law" ha. She drinks just like him and they are just two peas in a pod and happy as pigs in slop. I am too, and thank God every day that I'm free.
Mattie nailed it when she said it felt more like being a hostage than a partner. It's true. You learn to play mind games with yourself just to figure out how to deal with one little thing, then it just has the domino effect. Setting boundaries and sticking to them is what works. Good luck to you and your family and remember, "Nothing is ever as bad, or as good, as it seems."
Bo said
Jul 25, 2018
I don't know what type of "advice" or "guidance" or "suggestions" you are going to get there. I say that because in part, one, I don't know that a BB is the most effective and efficient fashion to "carry on" a conversation like this. I don't see it being simple, like I did this and I did that, as much as I see this really being more a discussion. The myopic one off, reply and response approach doesn't seem to be a true solution for something like this. Second, I am just going on my experience and what I see/read on this BB.
That said, I can only give you my experience, and even at that, it's not 2+2 = 4 and then the conversation is over. So, first, I don't think this is really about him and what he's doing. I don't think it's about what he specifically says, accuses you of, states, etc. Based upon my experience -- and this is not an oversimplification, at least not in my experience -- this is about YOU. Two parts to it -- but both about YOU. Part one, either you are dancing with him or you aren't. Period. Part two, put down the magnifying glass and pick up, and use, the mirror. Meaning, are you keeping it in the "I" -- and even at that -- what is the answer to part one? When asked if you wanted to watch a certain recorded TV show -- against your better judgment, against what you thought was best for you, you said yes. You didn't want to do it because he smelled and then he talks to the TV -- and you did it why? Because if you say no he gets madder!?!?! How about saying no because of boundaries you have set? How about saying no because it's not best for you and your health, and your well being? How about saying no because you've done a great deal of work on yourself, and you are prepared for it? So, in saying yes -- is that enabling? Is that perpetuating the situation? Is that your role, your contribution to the situation escalating? Then, you had to go out of your way to not sit near him -- regardless of the reason -- again, perhaps further escalating the situation. You "tried to play it sly" and started with some story or manipulation. And, the whole thing exploded after what? 2 minutes? From beginning to end, did it feel like a no-win situation? I always felt that way, before I found recovery, and started doing what was best for me -- from moment one -- WITHOUT worrying about her, what she thought, what she would say, without trying to avoid her from being angry at me, etc. Listen, no matter what happens -- she was going to be angry at me anyway!!! So, I might as well avoid the "getting worse" and keeping myself out of the line of fire. I do what is best for me -- and detach. Physically and emotionally.
In addition, the dance -- he was drinking, and you engaged in a conversation with him. You tried to logically, and calmly explain to him certain issues you have to deal with. However, you also pointed the finger -- told him he smelled, you can't stand the smell on him, etc. Sure, it's the truth, but saying it that way to a person who is drinking? It sounds like you are trying to apply logic to an illogical person and situation. If that works for others, perhaps they can give you better guidance, however, I have found -- my experience -- I accomplished NOTHING when I tried to logically explain ANYTHING to my wife when she's been drinking. Even if she agreed with me -- to what end? He agreed with you...will that really and truly accomplish anything? Check your motives. What are you really trying to do? Get out of a situation/argument/discussion? How? By explaining your way out of it?
He is negotiating and justifying with you -- "he's not drinking that much" and he's doing a great job because "blood sugar reading" is lower. He's trying to be right, and perhaps you are too. Even if you aren't, you are trying to make sense to a person who can't be made sense to -- hence, the dance. You rationalized -- if he is in control of himself and drinking then he has a choice of how he responds to you, and that yelling and throwing up his arms, pacing, ranting, raving, whatever, is not appropriate...makes perfect sense. Is it going to stop? No, so what has to happen? YOU need to change.
If you feel these "discussions" with him are helping you, the situation, etc. -- then, that's great. If it's working for you, keep doing it. However, if it is not -- then what? You asked "How do I handle it when he goes off?" -- work with your sponsor, learn how to properly and effectively set and enforce boundaries -- and the detach!!! It works. You said, "If I leave room he will get madder, so I just have to sit there and take it?" -- NO!!! You don't have to sit there and take it. Stop projecting, even if history says it's true -- and detach! Leave. If he gets madder...OK...how about this? SO WHAT? Maybe you shouldn't be making decisions based upon HIM -- and make them FOR and ABOUT YOU. Making decisions when you are focused on what the other person will say, do, etc. -- does not allow us to get healthy. You already changed your reaction/action/behavior based upon him and the past -- calling an alanon friend. I guess that's no longer an option? Of course it is!!! Do for YOU. About the smell -- is it an issue if you detach? Is it an issue if you have a boundary set and enforce it? Think this through. Think long and hard what this looks like. Excuses and lies -- do not, will not and cannot work. That is more of the dance, enabling, lies, etc. That's what he does -- not you. You are trying to be healthy and get better -- not him. You hate living like this, in this kind of fear, avoidance...then it is time to make change! It sounds like you are trying to get him to understand so that he can change and get better. It sounds like your efforts -- you are hoping to make him and the situation better. Focus on YOU -- make you better and your situation will get better. Will this allow you to go on forever, if nothing changes? No, but remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. That is true about the alcoholic...but it is also even more true for YOU...for us. Forget about him and do the next right thing for you, the next right thing in front of you, for YOU. Work with your sponsor on this -- and you'll see...it works if you work it.
You don't have to "prove" your position to him. You don't have to rationalize, explain, justify, etc., when he's been drinking. All of this -- can be part of focusing on you, part of boundaries, part of detaching, and part of change you can make. Remember the saying "I am sorry you feel that way" and "I am not going to engage with you right now" or "I am not going to get into this with you right now" -- and all of that is OK if you made it a boundary...and then you can leave! Politely, respectfully, and kindly. Is it ideal? Of course not. I've had to leave my own house at 2am. I've stayed in a hotel a couple of miles from my house. I've stayed at friends' houses, countless times. What I find unacceptable, what isn't good for me, etc. -- and not accepting those things, not exposing myself to those things -- that is what makes me better. That is what allows me to get healthy. Make it part of boundaries -- learn how to act, react, and as you make changes, your behavior will change. Remember...when you change the way you look at people...the people you look at begin to change. And, also...when you change the way you behave and deal with certain people...the people you deal with begin to change. It is, all, about YOU.
Take what you like and leave the rest. All the best.
Iamhere said
Jul 25, 2018
Welcome to MIP Marsha - glad you found us and glad that you joined in and shared. I agree 100% with the 'plan b' suggestion above too. What I did was sit there and not engage as it never resulted in a good outcome. Overtime, mine stopped ranting when he discovered I would not engage or react - I believe when we stop participating, the appeal of the dance dissipates.
We have a basement, so I added a huge 'man cave' complete with 50 inch TV, surround sound, etc. He loves it and spends tons of time there so that helped remove the isms and smells. I have 2 places where mine won't follow - the bathroom and the laundry room - both were great places to get away when I wasn't certain what was coming next. I have gone out for a walk with the dog, left to fill my car up, gone to meetings, gone to friends houses, put in headphones or earbuds to drown it out and many other things. I have no issue walking out of a room filled with chaos, drama, insanity, etc. today. I had to ask mine to stop following me around and believe it or not - just by asking, it improved.
It's not easy living with an alcoholic. It got easier for me with tons of meetings, sponsor, program friends and making plans of my own to enjoy myself AND escape. Keep doing you and leaning into the program - that's the only change made around my home and it did get better in time. (((Hugs)))
JerryF said
Jul 25, 2018
Plan B...I heard that from some old timers and counselors and it made sense. Talking about going on with my life when I wasn't going on with "our" life. I always like doing with my Alcoholic/addict yet at times that wasn't possible because of the insanity and there was a whole menu of other things I could do which were nice and okay as long as I didn't do them under the pressure of resentments and angers and such. She knew why I was doing what I was doing and handled it as she decided...no problem. After a while it got harder for me as my own wants and wishes started to be priority and we split. My alcoholic/addict didn't blow up that much as she came to know that it was my anger that was scary. I had to work on it and still do. Just keep coming back and learn alternatives which you will practice. ((((hugs))))
Aline said
Jul 26, 2018
Hey, Dancer, and (((hugs))). Much of what you describe I've been through too. The good news is - you can get through it by working the program. My experience with avoiding conflict, saying yes when I wanted to say no, trying to pacify, please the alcoholic and similar has been extensive and went on for years. The disease is stronger. I went out of my way to please the A in my life and I never could quite manage it... Even if it seemed to work, soon enough a time came when I was guilty of something again, and I just tried harder... I didn't realize there was no pleasing the alcoholic, not really, not for long. And it didn't bring happiness or anything even close to that to me OR the A. Because he just got sicker and I got crazier and barely a person really... I am so glad I am gradually getting myself back thanks to this program...
The suggestion to focus on you, what are your needs, what do you feel and want etc. is very good... The longer I'm working on myself, focusing on me, the more I see the absolute necessity of it for me to function more normally. What I had learned to do before, to ignore my needs and wants, disregard my own feelings, try to please the A etc. - it went on for a long time and there was hardly any ME left.
I have found I have a pretty big fear of rejection and it took me a long time to dare and do something that is good for me if I projected it would bring out anger in the alcoholic... I was almost completely dependent on his approval for me. This fear has not gone away, but as I have overcome a few challenges that tested me regarding this fear, it is no longer as terrifying...
What helped me very much, perhaps, the most to begin to have some real peace of mind, was doing the steps with my sponsor. I'm still halfway through, but the fruits of this work are already appearing...
Keep coming back, you are not alone, ((((Dancer))))
Aloha said
Jul 26, 2018
I was relating to your story.
When I was living with my AH, he would behave similarly.
Really, each instance was unique, so there was never only one way I'd approach this kind of behavior.
There was one time where I felt OK with indulging him to sit and listen to a tirade. When I did, I pictured myself wrapped in a protective blanket from my HP, where all the AH's negativity was deflected. I reminded myself "this is the disease talking right now, not my husband." I didn't respond to him at all except to say something neutral like "maybe..." or "ok..." in a soft, neutral voice. I also tried to just be as present as possible. But ultimately I had decided from the beginning I wasn't going to give him any response beyond neutral statements - I wasn't going to take any argument bait he threw at me.
My AH would also throw out comments at me if I went to leave a situation, too. "Your leaving just tells me I'm right!" or "If you walk out don't come back!"
This is the disease just working to control the situation. And I've said in the past that I can recognize manipulation tactics only because I've used them, too. The AH would also passively threaten our marriage with comments like "I just don't think I can take this any more..." etc.
My best behavior in these was to not react. Just say nothing. Leave. Get to a meeting or pick up the phone and call my sponsor or another Al-Anon friend.
The psychology of it is annoying in ways, but I honestly found the less energy I put into a situation, the less energy the A would try to put into it, too - or he'd give up. There were times where I would just look at him and act like nothing had ever even happened.
Of course in my heart MUCH had happened, but I just didn't want to spend the energy picking up that dance with the A yet again.
In the long run, I found that for my own sanity and serenity I needed to detach from him permanently, which meant divorce. I just finally came to a place of accepting him for who he was right then, knowing he was never going to change, and that I just didn't want to be with someone like that the rest of my life. His cons far outweighed his pros. I didn't come to this decision, however, until I'd been in the program and working the steps with a sponsor for a couple of years. And I'll emphasize that decision was what was best FOR ME. I know of many Al-Anon members who've remained married to their A's for quite a long time and have managed to find serenity in the midst of it.
Hope this was helpful in some way.
Jen61 said
Jul 26, 2018
I had a suitcase packed for years in case I needed to get out of the house fast. I put money in a different account and had all of my important papers packed too. This was my plan B.
Bo said
Jul 27, 2018
I kept a bag in the car -- some clothes, jeans, a suit for the next day, items I'd need at night and in the morning, toiletries, etc. That was a constant for me -- for three years! I took detachment very seriously. I viewed it as a tug of war -- and when you are in a tug of war, what happens if you simply just drop the rope? In a ping pong rally, what happens if you simply put down the paddle. That was what I did. She couldn't "force" me to respond. She couldn't force me to engage. Sure, her anger might escalate, but that was OK. That didn't have to make me do anything. I just continued to do what I was supposed to do. I didn't ignore her or treat her disrespectfully. I simply didn't engage. I focused on "I am not going to get into this with you at this time" or "I am not going to engage with you at this time" and sometimes resorted to "Please, just give me some space, and some time, I am feeling very overwhelmed and smothered" and on some occasions she actually stopped badgering me. I didn't care why. LOL.
I learned in marriage counselling, and other advanced work I did and participated in -- by engaging with her, which is what she was looking for me to do, was a form of me enabling the situation. It was enabling in that it was my contribution, my role, in the chaos, turmoil, and havoc. While it wasn't important to know "WHY" -- this was her looking to be right, make me wrong, justify, rationalize, whatever it was she was looking to justify at the moment, and lashing out, was her release. She was emotionally incapable of anything else. She was emotionally and spiritually "dead" on the inside. But, this was about me. The music started -- and I did not have to dance with her!!! It almost became a battle at times, her needling me, digging at me, pushing, prodding, just doing whatever she could to get me "into it" with her. I walked away. If she followed, I locked the door. If she was banging on the door, I went out for a walk. If she followed, I went out for a drive. If need be, I left for an hour, two, or five. If need be, I went to a friend's house or even a hotel. I did whatever I could to stay out of whatever was going on.
My boundary -- was that I would no longer engage with her when she was drinking, and I would not accept unacceptable behavior, specifically, being yelled at, screamed at, or attacked verbally, simply because I refused to reply, engage with her, etc. I had to re-state and reiterate that boundary hundreds of times, often the next day when questioned where I went and why I had to leave. Part of my response was -- if leaving, not being home, going out, etc., is a problem for you, I am not instigating or being disrespectful, however, I find it necessary, mandatory, because I can't stay here during those times. Perhaps if you give me space, time, time alone, etc. -- then I can assure you I would not feel the need to leave. It made more sense to her sober of course, LOL. Eventually, we arrived at a place where her attacks were far less frequent. She didn't want me to leave, so sometimes, she just stopped, went off and did whatever she wanted, which most often involved more drinking...but she left me alone. Mission accomplished. LOL.
andromeda said
Jul 28, 2018
You got some great feedback on here but I will share something that I came to realize when I lived with active alcoholism. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. I had to choose which damnation I was going to put up with that night.
I also had to learn to stop justifying and defending MY behaviors. My XAH would sit and sulk on the couch, he'd mock me, he'd get me on the merry go round of abusive conversations that went nowhere. I had to learn that it was Ok for him to believe his own reality and I started responding with, "You may be right." "hmmm, I'll give that some thought." "I'm sorry you feel that way."
I had to learn to keep it short and sweet. Like Aloha above, I detached enough but eventually it led to me making the decision to divorce when my son had just turned 16. My son is nearly 20 now and I see the effects that alcoholism has had on all of us. The best thing we can do for our kids is lead by example. And, program has given me the tools to do so and hopefully to be a better mother in the process. Sending you lots of support and serenity today.
Dancer66 said
Jul 30, 2018
I canāt tell you how much it means to me to be able to verbalize invent things here and get your device response support. I appreciate your openness and honesty. It truly is which damnation I want to put up with because you really are damned if you do reply and damned if you donāt and thatās where I think I struggle the most. I think I understand more so about how to leave the situation alone especially when heās drinking because the conversation just wonāt go anywhere appropriate when heās drinking. But that is hard when he yells and screams at me for not responding or for walking away and does do those threats of āI donāt know if I can put up with this anymoreā as he walks away.
It does feel like so often that we are going in circles. So he obviously notices that I leave the room donāt want to be around him so much and itās usually because heās drinking. So then he asked me āso youāre not gonna be around me because Iām drinking?ā āSo I canāt drive no anymoreā. So if I say my truth that I am bothered by his actions and verbalizations when he drinks and that I choose to not be around that Then I feel like he throws it back in my face of well you canāt complain we donāt spend time together if youāre choosing to not be with me and I know itās manipulation but it just makes it so hard so do I say I enjoy spending time with you when youāre not drinking? Which is true but sometimes I feel like if I just verbalize that itāll start a fight. And itās hard to because I know there are definitely marriage issues there even before the alcohol issues are there and the alcohol just makes it worse. And I would love to go to counseling but he refuses and does the threats ofāif you asked me to go to counseling again then itās just overā.
Itās so hard because I know his temperament has changed to a certain degree even when heās not drinking and I attribute that to his drinking issue in general. So itās hard because I donāt know what will set him off. And I want to do my best to plan for situations that I know are going to be tricky. So hereās a question for youā his brother is coming to stay overnight because theyāre doing a big fantasy sporting event. So the evening will be filled with them doing video games drinking watching sports on TV loudness swearing etc. Obviously I donāt want to be around and would preferred to not be there for the whole evening including overnight. But if I make plans and say oh hey you know Iām gonna allow you to have time alone with your brother Iām gonna go over and stay at someoneās house and do something with them in the evening and stay overnight. That will make him making nasty comments about things about not being able to tolerate him even drinking a little. But if I stay around and walk through the room and leave then he will also make a nasty comment and something probably about why donāt you call youāre Al-Anon friends or what are we too loud for you? So again itās kind of like the lesser of evils My teensge son is not bothered by the drinking but he is bothered about times when my husband has said something insensitive. . So when this upcoming situation comes up do I ask my son do you wanna stay here and be in the same house if you know theyāre going to be loud and preoccupied or do I ask him if he wants to come with me? And is by me asking my son if he wants to be around it implying any of my feelings onto my son and putting him in the middle of anything?
el-cee said
Jul 31, 2018
Dancer this is a minefield. I can feel the tension and fear and I remember it well. Your husband has a lot of power in your home so did mine. Me tip-toing around terrified to feel his wrath which was actually pretty pathetic when I look back. His wrath consisted of bullying tactics of children. Like he would make nasty comments and loved it if others heard how clever he was. Or he would have a massive big king baby tantrum with the shouting and screaming. He was really good at tapping into my emotions and making me feel guilty for a back catalogue of things I'd done or said. Pretty standard active alcoholic behaviour. Then there was me I truly believed I had the power to change him and his rotten nasty behaviour. I was arrogant because I thought I caused it and I could cure it. I thought I was bigger than him and the drink. I thought I hadn't been trying hard enough and I vowed over and over to try harder to either work out what was the least bad of this total crap just like your doing. I look back and can't believe how much power this sick man had and I had no idea he had it or I had given it to him or how to get it back. This situation your in with this man who is abusing you is really bad for your health. The stress and anxiety of it all takes years off us. You don't deserve to live this way. Life can be free of this and I'm proof. I got to alanon meetings. I read, no studied the literature I changed Like my life depended on it. I learned he was sick I was sick and I was getting better. I began setting boundaries very carefully at first. So I decided in my mind what I wanted based on what's good for me. Imagine making a decision based on what's good for you. Felt outrageous at first. Didn't believe I had that right. So you want to leave while he does his thing? Really good decision. So you need to know that this is perfectly reasonable and right and you need to firmly believe that. You also have to firmly believe he will say nasty things that's his bog standard behaviour when he doesn't get his way. Just like a spoilt child. His words come from his own crap. The hard bit is this. as you tell him your not staying for the sports thing with his friend try hard to just keep it simple don't give him lengthy explanations or detail. This takes courage and if any of his abuse comes your way you don't under any circumstances stay in the room. Take your body leave the room quuetly calmly sgiw no fear or huffiness. if you need words tell him you can no longer be anywhere where a person is shouting or abusing me. Il talk later. Every single time. Think about him like a spoilt child that's always got what it wants at the expense of others. Those childbrearing books give the same advice be cause it's the same thing. See him as a spoilt brat and set those boundaries and things will change for you.
Aloha said
Jul 31, 2018
With alcoholism I kept trying to convince myself that I would get the results I wanted if I just said or did the "right" thing.
I kept putting myself into a position of feeling like I was responsible for the alcoholic and his choices and behaviors.
Through getting to frequent face-to-face meetings, getting a sponsor, working the steps, and reading the literature I learned that I was powerless over alcohol and my life had become unmanageable because I was continually trying to control the disease by saying or doing the "right" things.
Do you have many face-to-face meetings near you? I know when my head was in a spin it was time to step up my program and get to more meetings and reach out much more frequently to my sponsor and Al-Anon friends who could help remind me where I was powerless and where I actually did have decisions I could make that were good for me.
You didn't cause your husband's behavior. You cannot control your husband's behavior. You cannot cure your husband's behavior.
What can you do for YOU?
And finally, where is your Higher Power in all of this?
-- Edited by Aloha on Tuesday 31st of July 2018 09:41:15 AM
Bo said
Jul 31, 2018
Dancer, I am glad you are able to find comfort and benefit from some of the experience and insight that some of the members have here. That said, I think the crux of that experience is two-fold -- first, the basics, the fundamentals, steps one, two and three, and everything in and around that. Second, go to meetings, find a sponsor, and start focusing on YOU, start working the alanon program, focusing on what you need to go, want to do, want to get better, get healthy.
I respectfully disagree about the which damnation you want to put up with. You don't have to put up with any. You do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. God gave you two legs, the ability to be mobile and walk, and you can do that. Many people here have said -- leave the room, leave the house, and detach. Not forever, LOL. For whatever period of time you like -- one hour, two, five, whatever. Sometimes you will come home too early, and sometimes it will be later than you needed to. You will learn from alanon -- and your own experiences. Yes, you are right -- detach when he's drinking if that's best for you. However, you say you are struggling and it is hard when "he yells and screams at me for not responding or for walking away" and then you referenced some threats. Your post came out a bit unreadable so I am just guessing here. That said, when he screams at you for walking away...keep walking. That's the detachment! LOL.
When he starts asking you questions -- you simply have to say, I am not going to get into this with you right now...and walk away. You cannot explain, negotiate, rationalize, intellectualize, engage, try to prove, ask, whatever -- you can't do any of that with an alcoholic who is drinking, and/or drunk. You are "saying your truth" as you call it...to a person who is drunk!!! What do you expect is going to happen? You keep looking for the magic words to say to a drunk person...and there are none. They do not exist. You are actually trying to have a reasonable, meaningful, rational conversation with a person who is drunk!!!
All the rest -- spending time together when he's sober vs. not wanting to be around him when he's drinking, to trying to explain this to him, to trying to negotiate marriage counselling, you wanting this, him wanting that, etc. -- all of that, is you trying to fix it. You are trying to get him to see what you see, perhaps have the marriage counsellor join in your efforts to battle his drinking, and get him to see, and so on and so on. It sounds like you are trying to get him to understand your position, your feelings, etc. -- and it has to do with his drinking -- so you want to let him know all about how you feel...about his drinking and everything around that. The three C's....you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it....him, or his drinking.
About the brother coming to visit -- again, you seem to want to have a conversation and explain all of this to him. To what end? What are you trying to accomplish? To get him to understand? To agree with you? To be happy about it? To what? Go make plans!!! Go away overnight. Don't tell him or explain to him that you are giving him his alone time and look to get into a conversation about it. Inform him!! If he's sober, tell him your boundary -- I am uncomfortable and and feel triggered when I am around you when you are intoxicated. It creates anxiety for me. Therefore, whenever you are drinking, and the conversation/discussion/etc. gets loud, confrontational, or I am uncomfortable, I am going to leave the room, or leave then house. I will not engage with you, or stay here and be yelled at or bombarded with questions. Period. No other discussions. You can't have a discussion with him about this because he has made it clear. One, he's not quitting drinking. Two, he wants to you stay around and be around when he's drinking. Three, he wants what he wants. Side note, you want what you want, hence, you should start going to meetings and learning this program. If he is not sober, don't engage. Wait until he is and then inform him of your boundary. Alanon will teach you that his nasty comments will not be able to devastate you when you are healthy. They will not and should not change what it is you need to do for YOU.
You can ask your son simply if he wants to hang around the house when his dad and brother are doing their fantasy sport league whatever thing. No other BS or verbiage. That's all. Check your motives.
Dancer, go to meetings and find a sponsor ASAP. This is all work you could and should be doing in meetings and with a sponsor. All the best.
Iamhere said
Jul 31, 2018
(((Dancer))) - I too have been there and it's a tough place to be. I am grateful that I found a ton of support and healthy suggestions in Al-Anon. A person wiser than I suggested that I just make plans with another person, and inform vs. ask. I agonized over this as I thought I knew how my AH and/or A Sons would react and it wouldn't be pretty.
I practiced my words with my sponsor so as to not do anything other than inform. My goals was to just make plans, inform my family, not JADE and then enjoy myself. I got through it and while there was some rebellion as it was so out of character for me, when I just detached from their words, it was actually way, way better than I projected.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I have to act as if I am a sane person living in a sane home with stable people....and then ask myself what I would do or how I would handle 'this'. I then work with my sponsor to find the best words that are neutral, kind and loving. Today, I make plans all the time and even allow them to take priority as having fun and socializing are important parts of my recovery. I had isolated for so, so long that it was uncomfortable at first, but now I have plans each and every day and take care of me first and then sprinkle in my chores, duties, family, etc.
So - if you want to do something else, make plans. I had to practice offering my sons a break from the insanity without blaming others. I would just say, I am going to ABC, do you want to join me? We can get ice cream after!! I had to change my thinking from I am making plans to get away to I am making plans to take care of me/my sanity. Recovery taught me that my life is unmanageable because I've been affected by this disease. It's not because of the person, the drinking or the chaos it brings about. It's because I have unhealthy ways of coping with it, and forgot how to take care of me in the process. I also had a really bad habit of making everything much more complicated than it was - I've been working to slow my mind, consider the known facts, pray for direction and then make a plan. One day at a time....it does work when we work it!
Bo said
Aug 1, 2018
Upon further reflection, I see two distinct issues here. One issue is staying and hearing, and/or replying to what the alcoholic says (or yells and screams, LOL), when they blow up. The second issue is how it makes us feel, does it alter our thinking of ourselves, make us feel small, weak, bad, does it change our thinking and decisions, do we end up people pleasing, placating, and so on and so on.
That said, inside the rooms of face to face, conference approved alanon meetings, I've heard an expression...it goes like this...just because the alcoholic calls you a chair...it doesn't mean you are a chair. Early on when I was not well, I did believe a lot of what my wife said, called me, blamed me for, etc. I also felt obligated to "dance" with her, because if I didn't, she kept going, following me, and it got worse. Detaching, walking away, was not an option. Remember, I was not well. My thinking -- like yours Dancer -- was distorted. Even though I was being rational and logical to the alcoholic -- what I was saying to her, telling her, etc., was perfectly clear, rational and logical, and I expressed it perfectly -- it didn't matter!!! There is the problem. Our problem.
It so much sounds like what I used to do Dancer. It is that feeling of obligation to answer, explain, justify, defend, etc. It is that desire to be heard, to get our point across. It is our want, we want so much, to fix things or at least prevent them getting worse! My sponsor used to have a question he would ask me...and he asked me a lot. The question was...
"How's that working for you?"
The answer was irrelevant. The point was...if it wasn't working...maybe I should change. Maybe I should try what I learned in alanon. Maybe I should work the program. Maybe I should walk away, call my sponsor, and not be focused on what my wife was saying, would say, etc. So, I did. I remember her screaming -- go ahead, call your alanon friends and tell them, lie to them, that it's all my fault. I remember it so well. And I learned there was nothing I could do about it. Not calling my sponsor was bad for me. Calling was good. She chose to react that way. Not me. It didn't matter what I did. No win situation!!! Call, get yelled at. Don't call, get yelled at. It wasn't worse...that was my denial because I didn't want to change and do something for me.
So my husband who is a problem drinker the other day majorly blew up at me. I had come back from gym in evening after working and he was drinking watching sports in front room with the kids (teens) and he was on the loud side. So I just went in back room, had dinner watched TV. My kids left to go out for a little bit after the game. I heard my husband on the phone with a family member just loud (nothing the person on other line would ever think was off). So i was happy minding my own business being in a separate room from him. Then he came in back room asking if I wanted to watch a certain TV show that we recorded. I wanted to say no because I knew he had been drinking and smelled and he talks at TV then...but I figured if I said no he would get mad. SO I said ok and went into front room and sat on another couch that was not near him (yes on purpose--I tried to play it sly that I was walking over to it responding to text then cooler in from of door..) So after 2 min he shuts off TV and starts laying into me "really you can't even sit next to me", then gets up starts waving his arms and pacing in out of room while yelling at me "I only had like one beer and you can't even sit next to me"..."I can't take this.". "you better decide on things" "you are over reacting" . I just let him rant. Then he went out to walk dog came back. "So you aren't going to say anything". I went to speak and he just cut me off. Finally he let me respond. I told him that I can not stand the smell from him after he has drank. I know that my sense of smell is on overdrive now in my menopause (I have heard from other women this happens)--and the smell of beer on him makes me nauseated, and yes when he has his loudness that makes me react emotionally. And I told him this before and gave him examples of how often I am upset by smells (not just his). So overtime he spoke he was loud and upset. He would try to talk about things and ask me to respond and I could see him trying to manipulate and get me so scattered to contradict myself. So then kids got home stayed outside because they could hear his loud voice. I told him lets carry this conversation on later when kids not around.
So next day we talked in morning--He said about how I don't want to be around him when he drinks and he's not drinking that much, I should be happy that his blood sugar reading are lower, that I don't respond to texts.. lots that has been building up for him. First thing I addressed was his laying into me--I told him that was not acceptable--if he is in control of himself and drinking then he has a choice of how to respond and that yelling and throwing up arms pacing is not appropriate, it is aggressive, it makes me fearful and that it makes me feel unsafe and untrusting being around him. All he did was acknowledge "I can see that". I said now that this has happened 2 times now and each time it makes me hard to trust him. Said nothing and no apology. Wee talked more. I said that I did not realize that him texting me that he had to go to a different city to catch the train to a game that I wasn't even going to was something I needed respond to. He said I don't respond often to his texts. I told him that at work I can't always and that some of his things I don;t think need a response--but that I will try to do so since this is important to him (omg I really think he is having issues). We talked about some other marriage like things but same conversation different day.
SO I guess here are some of my questions to you--I don't think he would ever hit me (that I have no problem calling police if he ever does). How do I handle it when he goes off? If I leave room he will get madder, so I just have to sit there and take it? (last time when I left the room he yelled "what are you going to do go call one of your alaonon friends?" (and yes I did). So am I just to sit there and take it? I did download a recording app so if I can next time I will record if able. And what do I do that I can't take the smell? Do I make up excuses and lies to not be near him? I hate living in this kids of fear/avaoidance area. I am doing some dance activities that presented themselves on Monday and Thursday evenings (free for 2 months) and I am thinking of pursuing them after the times up because they are fun and good exercise and bonus--will be on the nights of football so I can be out of house and then come back late and just go to bed. But I'm dreading him complaining about money. We'll see--just loving not being so near him when he;s drinking around sports.
So how do others do it? How do you continue to live in the same house with a drinker when the drinker gets upset that you don't want to be in same room as them or complains that you are always not there (which you are doing on purpose because they drink)?
This doesn't sound like a very sustainable situation to me. I really hate being controlled by someone's temper. And using their temper is how they try to control us.
Unlike many A's, my A wasn't a very angry person. When he did start getting into anger, I just couldn't be around it any more. I find it really poisonous. That was one among many reasons that things were so much more peaceful when I decided we should split up.
I think it's probably good for all of us who have an addict family member to have a Plan B in case things go bad. That might be the house of a friend who will take us in, even at a late hour. Or a motel room. Or our own little separate apartment, not on the premises, that the A doesn't have the key to. Or at least a car with some necessaries always stashed in the trunk, and a key always in our pocket.
For a while I tried the thing of doing what my A wanted, so as not to make a fuss. Going along with things even though I hated it. For me, it made for a really weird, false atmosphere. It was like I was in the middle of some kind of spy drama I couldn't get out of, where I couldn't ever be my real self. And I realized that that's no way to run a relationship. It's more like being a hostage than being a partner.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
Good for you on deciding on dancing lessons. I go to a dance house where I live (no alcohol) and have made so many new friends. Dancing is very fun, rewarding and yes, very good exercise. Physical exercise is wonderful for letting off steam, especially frustration. I remember oh so well (divorced 15 years) the horrible frustration of having to wake up in MY bed in MY room to the stench of alcohol. It was horrible and it was so unfair. I had three kids on the verge of moving out (late teens, early 20's) so I just asked him if he'd like to keep the house or would he rather I keep it. We walked around and took an inventory of all the furniture, decided who would get what and he left. Oh how I wish I had done that 20 years before! I never felt so free, so empowered. I had finally done something healthy for myself and my kids. We were ALL relieved and now we are still good friends. He is remarried and his wife calls me her "wife in law" ha. She drinks just like him and they are just two peas in a pod and happy as pigs in slop. I am too, and thank God every day that I'm free.
Mattie nailed it when she said it felt more like being a hostage than a partner. It's true. You learn to play mind games with yourself just to figure out how to deal with one little thing, then it just has the domino effect. Setting boundaries and sticking to them is what works. Good luck to you and your family and remember, "Nothing is ever as bad, or as good, as it seems."
That said, I can only give you my experience, and even at that, it's not 2+2 = 4 and then the conversation is over. So, first, I don't think this is really about him and what he's doing. I don't think it's about what he specifically says, accuses you of, states, etc. Based upon my experience -- and this is not an oversimplification, at least not in my experience -- this is about YOU. Two parts to it -- but both about YOU. Part one, either you are dancing with him or you aren't. Period. Part two, put down the magnifying glass and pick up, and use, the mirror. Meaning, are you keeping it in the "I" -- and even at that -- what is the answer to part one? When asked if you wanted to watch a certain recorded TV show -- against your better judgment, against what you thought was best for you, you said yes. You didn't want to do it because he smelled and then he talks to the TV -- and you did it why? Because if you say no he gets madder!?!?! How about saying no because of boundaries you have set? How about saying no because it's not best for you and your health, and your well being? How about saying no because you've done a great deal of work on yourself, and you are prepared for it? So, in saying yes -- is that enabling? Is that perpetuating the situation? Is that your role, your contribution to the situation escalating? Then, you had to go out of your way to not sit near him -- regardless of the reason -- again, perhaps further escalating the situation. You "tried to play it sly" and started with some story or manipulation. And, the whole thing exploded after what? 2 minutes? From beginning to end, did it feel like a no-win situation? I always felt that way, before I found recovery, and started doing what was best for me -- from moment one -- WITHOUT worrying about her, what she thought, what she would say, without trying to avoid her from being angry at me, etc. Listen, no matter what happens -- she was going to be angry at me anyway!!! So, I might as well avoid the "getting worse" and keeping myself out of the line of fire. I do what is best for me -- and detach. Physically and emotionally.
In addition, the dance -- he was drinking, and you engaged in a conversation with him. You tried to logically, and calmly explain to him certain issues you have to deal with. However, you also pointed the finger -- told him he smelled, you can't stand the smell on him, etc. Sure, it's the truth, but saying it that way to a person who is drinking? It sounds like you are trying to apply logic to an illogical person and situation. If that works for others, perhaps they can give you better guidance, however, I have found -- my experience -- I accomplished NOTHING when I tried to logically explain ANYTHING to my wife when she's been drinking. Even if she agreed with me -- to what end? He agreed with you...will that really and truly accomplish anything? Check your motives. What are you really trying to do? Get out of a situation/argument/discussion? How? By explaining your way out of it?
He is negotiating and justifying with you -- "he's not drinking that much" and he's doing a great job because "blood sugar reading" is lower. He's trying to be right, and perhaps you are too. Even if you aren't, you are trying to make sense to a person who can't be made sense to -- hence, the dance. You rationalized -- if he is in control of himself and drinking then he has a choice of how he responds to you, and that yelling and throwing up his arms, pacing, ranting, raving, whatever, is not appropriate...makes perfect sense. Is it going to stop? No, so what has to happen? YOU need to change.
If you feel these "discussions" with him are helping you, the situation, etc. -- then, that's great. If it's working for you, keep doing it. However, if it is not -- then what? You asked "How do I handle it when he goes off?" -- work with your sponsor, learn how to properly and effectively set and enforce boundaries -- and the detach!!! It works. You said, "If I leave room he will get madder, so I just have to sit there and take it?" -- NO!!! You don't have to sit there and take it. Stop projecting, even if history says it's true -- and detach! Leave. If he gets madder...OK...how about this? SO WHAT? Maybe you shouldn't be making decisions based upon HIM -- and make them FOR and ABOUT YOU. Making decisions when you are focused on what the other person will say, do, etc. -- does not allow us to get healthy. You already changed your reaction/action/behavior based upon him and the past -- calling an alanon friend. I guess that's no longer an option? Of course it is!!! Do for YOU. About the smell -- is it an issue if you detach? Is it an issue if you have a boundary set and enforce it? Think this through. Think long and hard what this looks like. Excuses and lies -- do not, will not and cannot work. That is more of the dance, enabling, lies, etc. That's what he does -- not you. You are trying to be healthy and get better -- not him. You hate living like this, in this kind of fear, avoidance...then it is time to make change! It sounds like you are trying to get him to understand so that he can change and get better. It sounds like your efforts -- you are hoping to make him and the situation better. Focus on YOU -- make you better and your situation will get better. Will this allow you to go on forever, if nothing changes? No, but remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. That is true about the alcoholic...but it is also even more true for YOU...for us. Forget about him and do the next right thing for you, the next right thing in front of you, for YOU. Work with your sponsor on this -- and you'll see...it works if you work it.
You don't have to "prove" your position to him. You don't have to rationalize, explain, justify, etc., when he's been drinking. All of this -- can be part of focusing on you, part of boundaries, part of detaching, and part of change you can make. Remember the saying "I am sorry you feel that way" and "I am not going to engage with you right now" or "I am not going to get into this with you right now" -- and all of that is OK if you made it a boundary...and then you can leave! Politely, respectfully, and kindly. Is it ideal? Of course not. I've had to leave my own house at 2am. I've stayed in a hotel a couple of miles from my house. I've stayed at friends' houses, countless times. What I find unacceptable, what isn't good for me, etc. -- and not accepting those things, not exposing myself to those things -- that is what makes me better. That is what allows me to get healthy. Make it part of boundaries -- learn how to act, react, and as you make changes, your behavior will change. Remember...when you change the way you look at people...the people you look at begin to change. And, also...when you change the way you behave and deal with certain people...the people you deal with begin to change. It is, all, about YOU.
Take what you like and leave the rest. All the best.
We have a basement, so I added a huge 'man cave' complete with 50 inch TV, surround sound, etc. He loves it and spends tons of time there so that helped remove the isms and smells. I have 2 places where mine won't follow - the bathroom and the laundry room - both were great places to get away when I wasn't certain what was coming next. I have gone out for a walk with the dog, left to fill my car up, gone to meetings, gone to friends houses, put in headphones or earbuds to drown it out and many other things. I have no issue walking out of a room filled with chaos, drama, insanity, etc. today. I had to ask mine to stop following me around and believe it or not - just by asking, it improved.
It's not easy living with an alcoholic. It got easier for me with tons of meetings, sponsor, program friends and making plans of my own to enjoy myself AND escape. Keep doing you and leaning into the program - that's the only change made around my home and it did get better in time. (((Hugs)))
Plan B...I heard that from some old timers and counselors and it made sense. Talking about going on with my life when I wasn't going on with "our" life. I always like doing with my Alcoholic/addict yet at times that wasn't possible because of the insanity and there was a whole menu of other things I could do which were nice and okay as long as I didn't do them under the pressure of resentments and angers and such. She knew why I was doing what I was doing and handled it as she decided...no problem. After a while it got harder for me as my own wants and wishes started to be priority and we split. My alcoholic/addict didn't blow up that much as she came to know that it was my anger that was scary. I had to work on it and still do. Just keep coming back and learn alternatives which you will practice. ((((hugs))))
The suggestion to focus on you, what are your needs, what do you feel and want etc. is very good... The longer I'm working on myself, focusing on me, the more I see the absolute necessity of it for me to function more normally. What I had learned to do before, to ignore my needs and wants, disregard my own feelings, try to please the A etc. - it went on for a long time and there was hardly any ME left.
I have found I have a pretty big fear of rejection and it took me a long time to dare and do something that is good for me if I projected it would bring out anger in the alcoholic... I was almost completely dependent on his approval for me. This fear has not gone away, but as I have overcome a few challenges that tested me regarding this fear, it is no longer as terrifying...
What helped me very much, perhaps, the most to begin to have some real peace of mind, was doing the steps with my sponsor. I'm still halfway through, but the fruits of this work are already appearing...
Keep coming back, you are not alone, ((((Dancer))))
When I was living with my AH, he would behave similarly.
Really, each instance was unique, so there was never only one way I'd approach this kind of behavior.
There was one time where I felt OK with indulging him to sit and listen to a tirade. When I did, I pictured myself wrapped in a protective blanket from my HP, where all the AH's negativity was deflected. I reminded myself "this is the disease talking right now, not my husband." I didn't respond to him at all except to say something neutral like "maybe..." or "ok..." in a soft, neutral voice. I also tried to just be as present as possible. But ultimately I had decided from the beginning I wasn't going to give him any response beyond neutral statements - I wasn't going to take any argument bait he threw at me.
My AH would also throw out comments at me if I went to leave a situation, too. "Your leaving just tells me I'm right!" or "If you walk out don't come back!"
This is the disease just working to control the situation. And I've said in the past that I can recognize manipulation tactics only because I've used them, too. The AH would also passively threaten our marriage with comments like "I just don't think I can take this any more..." etc.
My best behavior in these was to not react. Just say nothing. Leave. Get to a meeting or pick up the phone and call my sponsor or another Al-Anon friend.
The psychology of it is annoying in ways, but I honestly found the less energy I put into a situation, the less energy the A would try to put into it, too - or he'd give up. There were times where I would just look at him and act like nothing had ever even happened.
Of course in my heart MUCH had happened, but I just didn't want to spend the energy picking up that dance with the A yet again.
In the long run, I found that for my own sanity and serenity I needed to detach from him permanently, which meant divorce. I just finally came to a place of accepting him for who he was right then, knowing he was never going to change, and that I just didn't want to be with someone like that the rest of my life. His cons far outweighed his pros. I didn't come to this decision, however, until I'd been in the program and working the steps with a sponsor for a couple of years. And I'll emphasize that decision was what was best FOR ME. I know of many Al-Anon members who've remained married to their A's for quite a long time and have managed to find serenity in the midst of it.
Hope this was helpful in some way.
I had a suitcase packed for years in case I needed to get out of the house fast. I put money in a different account and had all of my important papers packed too. This was my plan B.
I learned in marriage counselling, and other advanced work I did and participated in -- by engaging with her, which is what she was looking for me to do, was a form of me enabling the situation. It was enabling in that it was my contribution, my role, in the chaos, turmoil, and havoc. While it wasn't important to know "WHY" -- this was her looking to be right, make me wrong, justify, rationalize, whatever it was she was looking to justify at the moment, and lashing out, was her release. She was emotionally incapable of anything else. She was emotionally and spiritually "dead" on the inside. But, this was about me. The music started -- and I did not have to dance with her!!! It almost became a battle at times, her needling me, digging at me, pushing, prodding, just doing whatever she could to get me "into it" with her. I walked away. If she followed, I locked the door. If she was banging on the door, I went out for a walk. If she followed, I went out for a drive. If need be, I left for an hour, two, or five. If need be, I went to a friend's house or even a hotel. I did whatever I could to stay out of whatever was going on.
My boundary -- was that I would no longer engage with her when she was drinking, and I would not accept unacceptable behavior, specifically, being yelled at, screamed at, or attacked verbally, simply because I refused to reply, engage with her, etc. I had to re-state and reiterate that boundary hundreds of times, often the next day when questioned where I went and why I had to leave. Part of my response was -- if leaving, not being home, going out, etc., is a problem for you, I am not instigating or being disrespectful, however, I find it necessary, mandatory, because I can't stay here during those times. Perhaps if you give me space, time, time alone, etc. -- then I can assure you I would not feel the need to leave. It made more sense to her sober of course, LOL. Eventually, we arrived at a place where her attacks were far less frequent. She didn't want me to leave, so sometimes, she just stopped, went off and did whatever she wanted, which most often involved more drinking...but she left me alone. Mission accomplished. LOL.
I also had to learn to stop justifying and defending MY behaviors. My XAH would sit and sulk on the couch, he'd mock me, he'd get me on the merry go round of abusive conversations that went nowhere. I had to learn that it was Ok for him to believe his own reality and I started responding with, "You may be right." "hmmm, I'll give that some thought." "I'm sorry you feel that way."
I had to learn to keep it short and sweet. Like Aloha above, I detached enough but eventually it led to me making the decision to divorce when my son had just turned 16. My son is nearly 20 now and I see the effects that alcoholism has had on all of us. The best thing we can do for our kids is lead by example. And, program has given me the tools to do so and hopefully to be a better mother in the process. Sending you lots of support and serenity today.
With alcoholism I kept trying to convince myself that I would get the results I wanted if I just said or did the "right" thing.
I kept putting myself into a position of feeling like I was responsible for the alcoholic and his choices and behaviors.
Through getting to frequent face-to-face meetings, getting a sponsor, working the steps, and reading the literature I learned that I was powerless over alcohol and my life had become unmanageable because I was continually trying to control the disease by saying or doing the "right" things.
Do you have many face-to-face meetings near you? I know when my head was in a spin it was time to step up my program and get to more meetings and reach out much more frequently to my sponsor and Al-Anon friends who could help remind me where I was powerless and where I actually did have decisions I could make that were good for me.
You didn't cause your husband's behavior. You cannot control your husband's behavior. You cannot cure your husband's behavior.
What can you do for YOU?
And finally, where is your Higher Power in all of this?
-- Edited by Aloha on Tuesday 31st of July 2018 09:41:15 AM
I respectfully disagree about the which damnation you want to put up with. You don't have to put up with any. You do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. God gave you two legs, the ability to be mobile and walk, and you can do that. Many people here have said -- leave the room, leave the house, and detach. Not forever, LOL. For whatever period of time you like -- one hour, two, five, whatever. Sometimes you will come home too early, and sometimes it will be later than you needed to. You will learn from alanon -- and your own experiences. Yes, you are right -- detach when he's drinking if that's best for you. However, you say you are struggling and it is hard when "he yells and screams at me for not responding or for walking away" and then you referenced some threats. Your post came out a bit unreadable so I am just guessing here. That said, when he screams at you for walking away...keep walking. That's the detachment! LOL.
When he starts asking you questions -- you simply have to say, I am not going to get into this with you right now...and walk away. You cannot explain, negotiate, rationalize, intellectualize, engage, try to prove, ask, whatever -- you can't do any of that with an alcoholic who is drinking, and/or drunk. You are "saying your truth" as you call it...to a person who is drunk!!! What do you expect is going to happen? You keep looking for the magic words to say to a drunk person...and there are none. They do not exist. You are actually trying to have a reasonable, meaningful, rational conversation with a person who is drunk!!!
All the rest -- spending time together when he's sober vs. not wanting to be around him when he's drinking, to trying to explain this to him, to trying to negotiate marriage counselling, you wanting this, him wanting that, etc. -- all of that, is you trying to fix it. You are trying to get him to see what you see, perhaps have the marriage counsellor join in your efforts to battle his drinking, and get him to see, and so on and so on. It sounds like you are trying to get him to understand your position, your feelings, etc. -- and it has to do with his drinking -- so you want to let him know all about how you feel...about his drinking and everything around that. The three C's....you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it....him, or his drinking.
About the brother coming to visit -- again, you seem to want to have a conversation and explain all of this to him. To what end? What are you trying to accomplish? To get him to understand? To agree with you? To be happy about it? To what? Go make plans!!! Go away overnight. Don't tell him or explain to him that you are giving him his alone time and look to get into a conversation about it. Inform him!! If he's sober, tell him your boundary -- I am uncomfortable and and feel triggered when I am around you when you are intoxicated. It creates anxiety for me. Therefore, whenever you are drinking, and the conversation/discussion/etc. gets loud, confrontational, or I am uncomfortable, I am going to leave the room, or leave then house. I will not engage with you, or stay here and be yelled at or bombarded with questions. Period. No other discussions. You can't have a discussion with him about this because he has made it clear. One, he's not quitting drinking. Two, he wants to you stay around and be around when he's drinking. Three, he wants what he wants. Side note, you want what you want, hence, you should start going to meetings and learning this program. If he is not sober, don't engage. Wait until he is and then inform him of your boundary. Alanon will teach you that his nasty comments will not be able to devastate you when you are healthy. They will not and should not change what it is you need to do for YOU.
You can ask your son simply if he wants to hang around the house when his dad and brother are doing their fantasy sport league whatever thing. No other BS or verbiage. That's all. Check your motives.
Dancer, go to meetings and find a sponsor ASAP. This is all work you could and should be doing in meetings and with a sponsor. All the best.
I practiced my words with my sponsor so as to not do anything other than inform. My goals was to just make plans, inform my family, not JADE and then enjoy myself. I got through it and while there was some rebellion as it was so out of character for me, when I just detached from their words, it was actually way, way better than I projected.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I have to act as if I am a sane person living in a sane home with stable people....and then ask myself what I would do or how I would handle 'this'. I then work with my sponsor to find the best words that are neutral, kind and loving. Today, I make plans all the time and even allow them to take priority as having fun and socializing are important parts of my recovery. I had isolated for so, so long that it was uncomfortable at first, but now I have plans each and every day and take care of me first and then sprinkle in my chores, duties, family, etc.
So - if you want to do something else, make plans. I had to practice offering my sons a break from the insanity without blaming others. I would just say, I am going to ABC, do you want to join me? We can get ice cream after!! I had to change my thinking from I am making plans to get away to I am making plans to take care of me/my sanity. Recovery taught me that my life is unmanageable because I've been affected by this disease. It's not because of the person, the drinking or the chaos it brings about. It's because I have unhealthy ways of coping with it, and forgot how to take care of me in the process. I also had a really bad habit of making everything much more complicated than it was - I've been working to slow my mind, consider the known facts, pray for direction and then make a plan. One day at a time....it does work when we work it!
Upon further reflection, I see two distinct issues here. One issue is staying and hearing, and/or replying to what the alcoholic says (or yells and screams, LOL), when they blow up. The second issue is how it makes us feel, does it alter our thinking of ourselves, make us feel small, weak, bad, does it change our thinking and decisions, do we end up people pleasing, placating, and so on and so on.
That said, inside the rooms of face to face, conference approved alanon meetings, I've heard an expression...it goes like this...just because the alcoholic calls you a chair...it doesn't mean you are a chair. Early on when I was not well, I did believe a lot of what my wife said, called me, blamed me for, etc. I also felt obligated to "dance" with her, because if I didn't, she kept going, following me, and it got worse. Detaching, walking away, was not an option. Remember, I was not well. My thinking -- like yours Dancer -- was distorted. Even though I was being rational and logical to the alcoholic -- what I was saying to her, telling her, etc., was perfectly clear, rational and logical, and I expressed it perfectly -- it didn't matter!!! There is the problem. Our problem.
It so much sounds like what I used to do Dancer. It is that feeling of obligation to answer, explain, justify, defend, etc. It is that desire to be heard, to get our point across. It is our want, we want so much, to fix things or at least prevent them getting worse! My sponsor used to have a question he would ask me...and he asked me a lot. The question was...
"How's that working for you?"
The answer was irrelevant. The point was...if it wasn't working...maybe I should change. Maybe I should try what I learned in alanon. Maybe I should work the program. Maybe I should walk away, call my sponsor, and not be focused on what my wife was saying, would say, etc. So, I did. I remember her screaming -- go ahead, call your alanon friends and tell them, lie to them, that it's all my fault. I remember it so well. And I learned there was nothing I could do about it. Not calling my sponsor was bad for me. Calling was good. She chose to react that way. Not me. It didn't matter what I did. No win situation!!! Call, get yelled at. Don't call, get yelled at. It wasn't worse...that was my denial because I didn't want to change and do something for me.