This evening we had our 4th couples counselling and the first thing my husband said was that he relapsed on Monday. I'm not angry about that. I was just relieved I wasn't there. He hasn't told his mum, who he lives with, which I think he should but again that's up to him.
What I am angry about is that the counsellor said that me doing AlAnon and having my own timeline for this situation (and my the rest of my life) is all well and good but that I am not paying attention to my husbands' recovery and that maybe I am not giving him the time he needs to get better. or support him in the correct way as in letting him do what he needs to do so he can concentrate on himself rather than us (I thought that was what I was doing) The counsellor could see my husband really does want to get better but is also battling depression and the embarrassment of relapse is not helping him. My husband has indeed been kicking himself a lot about the things he doesn't do right.
I can understand that there are things my husband can't give and my timeline or my opinions/feelings, which are seen as pressure points towards my husband, are not meant as pressure points at all. Maybe I am not wording it right but I have always been an advocate of honesty and that is what I am trying to be in couples counselling so we all know where we stand.
My husband definitely came across fragile today and said that only people in AA really understand what he going through and that he is going to there as a lifeline. I am absolutely fine with him going to AA even though I sometimes think he forgets to live his life and is getting stuck in his sobriety by only working and going to AA and that is day in and day out. He told me he wants to get to know his children and have a family life. In my opinion this means he has to be flexible with AA times and perhaps find another routines so that he can sometimes be at home in the evening rather than being at AA from 7pm until late.
It's not the first time the counsellor has said something like this which has really upset me. Even my husband agreed that the counsellor was being rather nasty. That my husband does feel the pressure of me moving on with my life when he is nowhere near ready to come along and is just scared but he said that that was his problem and not mine. My husband thinks it's a good thing I am doing AlAnon and has seen positive changes in me which also upset him because I seem so much better than I was and he himself is still nowhere (his words not mine).
The counsellor also asked me what I would do if the 4 coming days (where my husband is going to come over and stay over for the night for the first time since the beginning of January) go pear shaped. Or what if it goes well for 60 days and my husband is 60 days sober and suddenly relapses, what will I do then or what if a relapse happens after 6 months of sobriety and living together again.....I really struggled with this question as I just wanted to see how the next 4 days were going to go. Tomorrow my husband comes here, Saturday we are going out, Sunday is church and Monday our eldest has a birthday party. I prepared to take it one day at the time and see how we get on. I hadn't thought about the negative. I hadn't thought about what I would do if he relapses after 60 days.....probably kick him out back to his mum again or what i would do after 6 months and he relapses.....There is a big difference between being sober for 60 days or 6 months and there is a difference between an occasional relapse or just continuing to drink days on end and not getting back on track. If the latter happened, the marriage would be over for me what I would do about the marriage if things go bad this weekend or after 60 days.....I don't honestly know. Is that bad? I think I would deal with it when it presented itself. I feel myself strong enough to be able to deal with a relapse in a mindful manner (with help from you guys of course). What I don't want to happen is that the children start to feel the tension again, that we'd have to leave, the old song basically. I am not going to play that again. The house is calm. the girls are calm and we are enjoying living in this house and I want to keep it that way. So I guess what will happen when things do go wrong would be that my husband leaves and we talk it over after which a decision will need to be made but I don't think I should make that decision until that has happened. Am I naive?
My only answer to all this was that I would like to see where this marriage can go before I give it up completely although I am starting to have more and more peace with the fact it might not be salvageable as the things I want out of a parent or partner might not ever be possible with my husband who has basically lost 23 years of his life and has to start life again at 37 from scratch.
DavidG said
May 3, 2018
Short answer, As. [for me] is yes!
Anger fear grief- along with happiness and joy, come from the same place for me.
One day at a time- and sometimes, even, one moment at a time... is all I can do.
Hope the birthday goes okay- early next week... ...
Dutchy said
May 3, 2018
Thank you!
It's exactly what I wanted to do this weekend, take it one day at the time and I feel/felt attacked by the couples counsellor who is supposed to help us.
Mattie said
May 3, 2018
My experience is that a lot of otherwise good couples counselors have no real knowledge of alcoholism or best practices. Over the years we had 4 counselors, and none of them had real knowledge of alcoholism, though they said they did. My A would say things like, "Okay, I'll just quit drinking then, not a problem," and I'd say, "It's not that simple and that's not going to work so easily" and the counselor would say, "Mattie, why do you think you can't accept the sincere promises of your husband?" And I'd try to explain and suddenly it would be all about me and my paranoia and my unsupportiveness, not about the previous years of broken promises and denial and dismissiveness. One of the counselors finally admitted she was out of her depth. The others continued to give advice that I now see was actually harmful. It would have been good advice for a non-alcoholic. But active alcoholics have a level of deceptiveness and dishonesty that means they'll never be wholly participating in therapy. Their main goal is to preserve the drinking, not to do whatever it takes to make the marriage better.
Knowing what I know now, I'd never be in counseling with an alcoholic unless the counselor had specific knowledge and experience with alcoholism, not just the day and a half or whatever they get when doing a general counseling degree. Your counselor is setting my alarm bells ringing.
Dutchy said
May 3, 2018
He is setting mine ringing too and he is expensive. I am glad my husband agreed with me though about the way I was treated. I have a feeling this counsellor is not going to work. My own therapist has better knowledge of alcoholism and is very helpful when I see her on Fridays.
I do feel for my husband. He is already beating himself up because of his relapse and the session today didn't really help either of us although we have started to communicate slightly better and my husband is more open about his feelings and struggles.
Iamhere said
May 3, 2018
(((Dutchy))) - I do believe we have every right to every feeling we have. It's what I do with it that matters. Of course, for me - anger was my go to emotion, and that wasn't productive at all. With some recovery, I now try to do what is suggested - feel the feelings and talk it out and then do some step work.
I have come to the realization that other people do not wake up and plot, scheme and plan to make me angry. So - my anger is mine to feel, dissect, manage and grow from. She's asking valid questions and if your honest answer is I don't know, then speak it. I always thought I had to have the 'right answer' all the time and that's not reality - that's distorted thinking. I would even spend time researching, googling, analyzing, etc. and what I planned to do made no sense when what I planned for happened.
We've gone through many relapses. It sounds kind of strange, but as time went on, I came to expect them vs. fear them. Simply because this disease tells an alcoholic that a drink is fine. Just one. The problem with that is rarely can an alcoholic stop at one. Yet - the denial and the disease is bigger than the power of a person so his desire and choice to lean into AA is exactly where he needs to be. From personal experience, his meetings, fellowship, program and recovery must be his only and number one priority. He should not feel guilty for wanting to save his life. His disease did not progress to where it is overnight and recovery doesn't come overnight either.
Which comes back to us. Those of us who love the alcoholic. For me, I had to decide to live my life as best I can and to find my joy. I had spent a long while wanting others to provide my joy, fit my model of family and 'be there for me'.....pfffffft - not reality. Even in the best of marriages, there are rough patches and we all need a dose of self-love, trusted friends and support beyond the home to get through it.
When mine relapse, the best service I can offer and give is to leave them to it. Asking questions and offering slogans and platitudes is frowned upon in my small world. I tend to just say, I am sorry for your pain - let me know if I can be of service. While this sounds cold/distant it works best because they 'hear' all other things as judgement, criticism, condemnation or worse.
We did counseling for a while. When I left feeling worse than I arrived or confused by the session, I did write notes to 'seek to clarify'. Sometimes I used them and other times I figured out what was bothering me before the next session.
You are doing great in your recovery and I'm sending you positive thoughts and prayers for a great visit this weekend. One day at a time is always the best way for me to roll - and as David points out - sometimes it's down to one moment at a time.....hang in there and (((hugs))).
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
Thank you for your response Iamhere. I definitely understand everything you are saying.
I wasn't surprised with the relapse the way he was last Sunday, I could see it coming. His poor mum still thinks he's not drinking. I see myself in her from when I didn't have a clue what to do or thought my husband was being good when he really played us all.
I am grateful I have the clarity to see that that is not the way. I am not angry at his relapse. And I know that there will always be a relapse and I can deal with that as long as my husband deals with it in the correct way aswell. It becomes a problem if he continues and becomes an active alcoholic again and throws everything in the wind. At the moment he seems to see himelf as an absolute loser and the only thing I can offer is to tell him that he is not, that it's difficult to do what he does but that I also feel that he maybe needs to make steps to move on from just sobriety and live a life because life isn't fun or good when all you have is sobriety. I don't want to tell him what to do. I just want to share my thoughts with hom and he can do with them what he wants.
I finally had the 'one day at a time' thing down by taking the coming weekend in steps and see how we got on. The counsellor seemed to instantly want to concentrate on the negative. And no I didn't have an immediate answer but I feel equipped to deal with the bad if it arises. I just need to choose myself and not get dragged back in to where I was all these years.
That said I do feel I am supported my husband as much as I can. I leave him be, give him space to do what he needs to do and try not to interfere and maybe I am still asking too much by wanting some support (so I can go to AlAnon) or communication in return. And I still feel I have the right to follow my own life. In this new house, me and the girls have a good time, with a good school, fun and peace and I don't want to let that fet disturbed again. I feel I need to protect that space.
As you say, I want to feel every feeling, concentrate on the feelings and work through them in the hope to come to a good answer and way to deal with it.
Thank you all for the support as always!
el-cee said
May 4, 2018
I'm so glad I never did the counselling thing because as far as I've read, the disease of alcoholism has never been able to be treated by psychology or counselling or any of the kind of mainstream therapies. I remember reading about how Carl Jung, one of the most respected psychiatrists in the 50s and 60s treated an alcoholic with all he had and he had the humility to eventually tell him there was nothing more he could do and that alcoholism may need a spiritual solution.
The disease is bigger than any 'normal' types of solutions, I believe. Alcoholism can run rings round your average counsellor. Its cunning and baffling.
When I came to Alanon I was offered counselling at the same time but I knew I had already found the answer even if I didn't know the answer and I was scared that a counsellor would influence my thinking, because my thinking was so distorted. I had to decide on my recovery and commit to it. Your post makes me feel so glad I did because just about everything you have posted about your counselors advice seems to me the exact opposite of what Alanon is trying to teach us.
Alanon tells us we have the disease of Alcoholism just the same but without the drinking and to me that means we have the same set of symptoms. I was obsessed with the drinker and so your counsellor encouraging you to pay yet even more attention to your husband is completely crazy to me. I had to detach, look away from him and focus on me and that was for both of our goods. I had to learn and believe and practice step 1 - I am powerless. Your counsellor is taking you away from step 1 telling you that you have power which is very dangerous for us who believed it was our fault.
The what if.... another dangerous thing to do for us. I spent 20 yrs living in the future terrified or living in the past guilty. Alanon tries to teach us to live in this moment. Your husband can't offer you a future right now, what you see is what you get. Hes telling you that he has woken up and thats something to be grateful for, hes spending the time with just about the only people on Earth that have a chance of helping him have a life, any life. Other routes to sobriety? do these exist? I dont know of any, there are no pills to treat it or 12 week program. Its AA every day for the rest of their lives and its the same for us. Ive got to work Alanon principles every day of my life or Im back, miserable, judgemental, immature, crazy basically so this is it. Im actually grateful, alcoholism did me a big favour, putting enough pressure on me to seek out another way to exist and its so much better, like unbelievably better.
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
Brilliant post El-cee! Ibalways love the way you analyse and look at things. I feel exactly the same! Me and my husband have discussed this counsellor and we both feel it isn't doing us any favors other than my husband opening up slightly and feeling guilty about the things he isn't able to answer or give and it's taking me away from all the work I've done on myself to get me to detach and put me into a better mindset. I love my own therapist. She is very good and she helps a lot. That said I would love an AlAnon sponsor but unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon. So I'll just keep coming back here.
SerenityRUS said
May 4, 2018
Dutchy,
I found working with an actual addictions counselor extremely helpful in terms of they get it. They understand the whole scope of the issue. I also found that to be true in working with Dr's in general .. unless they have truly had experience they just don't get it.
Plus the focus IS on the recovering addict vs the whole family and I noticed that with rehab counselors .. I'm sorry it's not all about the addict .. that's my opinion.
Not that this is about me .. however I am dealing with a similar thing with my kid transitioning and one thing I really push back on .. is yes .. I have a kid who is transitioning from female to male .. however .. this affects the WHOLE family .. it does change our relationship to a point and as a family we are mourning the gender expectations. In my mind it's similar to regrouping so to speak and figuring out how do we work within our own family unit. What doesn't change is my kid is my kid .. what does change is the role to a point and the new definition of how we choose to define ourselves which is seriously no one else's business except ours. My kids transition doesn't affect just him .. it affects us ALL as a unit .. so nope .. sorry .. I still have a responsibility to my younger kiddo and my older kiddo is an adult, whom I fully support and love unconditionally .. it's not just about him. He IS responsible for his mental health and while I support him he doesn't get to say well I'm transitioning so I get to (fill in the blank) as an excuse for bad and poor behavior .. sorry for you .. that's not how our family operates.
That is true to me for families affected by addiction .. there are similarities that the roles are redefined and relationships change .. it's neither good or bad it just is and you and your spouse will have to figure out what works and doesn't work for you .. in my mind while his sobriety is important .. that's his part .. your part is taking care of you. I don't see that you are "responsible" for his sobriety. He is and he is responsible for his individual relationships within the family unit.
I don't know if that makes sense however .. that's my experience as well as my opinion in how to best work within a unit to move forward with everything going on. It would be no different for me in dealing with an addict. Personal responsibility is personal responsibility there is no free pass.
Hugs S :)
PS - Do you have a right to be mad .. umm .. yes .. no one gets to tell you how to feel .. what you choose to do with that is up to you and that part is your responsibility.
Bo said
May 4, 2018
Here's my answer, plain and simple, short, and straight to the point...YES...you absolutely, positively, have the right to be angry...and it doesn't matter what happened. You feel how you feel. Period. End of story.
Whether or not you are healthy, reacting healthy, thinking healthy, letting the anger consume you, and so on and so on...that's an entirely different story.
I've always felt a little bit of anger is a good thing. It can be an ally. To a point.
In my experience, the problem is -- when you are "in it" you can't control the anger. It tends to control you. Many times, you don't even know you are in it. Many times, you are so in it, you are the only one who doesn't know you are so in it.
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
After first writing down my anger I couldn't sleep well. Now a day later after thinking, talking to family and discussing it with my husband as well as reading all your support I am now ok with what happened.
It is clear that the counsellor doesn't know how or what tondo. We are not a 'normal' couple needing help. We have 'special needs'. My own personal therapist is amazing! She's been it, worked in it and gets it and she teaches me, we do AlAnon also together now. I am so grateful to have found her.
Indo not, I didn't think so yesterday either, that I am responsiblr for my husbands recovery. Only my own and I cannot help him. I can support him but his mistakes and jis choices are just that.....his. And that is ok. But I do know that I've rebuilt a life for me and the girls after being thrown in the deep end. We are happy, we have a routine, it works. This house has many happy memories and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to have to go through hell again. I accept relapses amd I accept this will always be a part of our lives if we stay together but how we deal with it and how my husband approaches and continues his recovery is up to him. Not me and that gives me peace and serenity today.
Jerry F said
May 4, 2018
((((Dutchy)))) A very important word in our recovery is "choices" and we have many of those. Regardless of how we arrive at those choices we pay the consequences. Ours is not a perfect program because we are not perfect...not even close considering there many people, alcoholic or not out there putting judgement on our choices. I have the time ability and facility to make choices and also serve the consequences. This is where a great sponsor has done me right in exercising my choices. You don't need a law to be angry...laws are rights. ((((hugs))))
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
I would really like a sponsor. I do think it would help me a lot. Someone once suggested asking a woman from here temporarily but I am afraid to ask mostly because it might not be temporarily.
Jerry F said
May 4, 2018
Sister...get rid of the fear. Do what you have to do for today...today and turn the rest over. My long term sponsor was a person who my first sponsor suggested for me as she was firing me. Yeppers it was that way because my choice making was so screwed up and oppositional to the suggestions. First suggestion? Men on men and women on women soooo I chose a woman and when my ego got in the way I got fired and left with the suggestion of a male sponsor who when I chose to work without opposition turned my program around and helped me get my life back. Today my sponsor is male, from within my own culture, very experienced and knowledgeable. It works when I work it. You still have the choice to be angry....((((hugs))))
DavidG said
May 4, 2018
As. It would take me 8 or 10 f2f meetings to get to the depth of this group... ...
as I said- when you first arrived- this space as evolved as a group- in its own right!
I see people moving alongside of you who would make superb sponsors!!! ... yes...
Bo said
May 4, 2018
Dutchy wrote:
I would really like a sponsor. I do think it would help me a lot. Someone once suggested asking a woman from here temporarily but I am afraid to ask mostly because it might not be temporarily.
Have you gone to face to face meetings yes? Has anyone there appealed to you -- appeal in a way that they have: strong program, a good amount of time in the program, and you think they bring a lot to the proverbial table, perhaps in areas of objectivity, accountability, intellect, different and program perspective, and just an overall a quality person who you listen to and you think, yes, they really get it. The person could have a logical and reasoned approach in their way of thinking, how they share about various situations, and most importantly, what they do to get through the trials and tribulations that they face. It helps if they are a constituent who has similar experience, similar dealings, etc. If you can benefit from their experience, their wisdom, and how they "got through" what they got through, you may have yourself a quality sponsor there.
There is also a pamphlet on sponsorship as well. Some meetings even have sponsors and/or temporary sponsors identify themselves.
Or, sure, ask someone here. It can only benefit you. You'll know right away whether it's working or not. A great sponsor -- can save your life. He/she can accelerate your recovery and get you from point a to point b quicker, faster, more expediently, more diligently, and certainly with less damage, pain, etc. A great sponsor can make all the difference in your world. My sponsor saved more lives than the entire cast of the television show M*A*S*H* -- and I was one of them. This, is what I've seen and experienced in almost 25 years in alanon.
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
There are definitely people I think could definitely be my sponsor on here. And this is something I need to work on.....I need to need think I am a burden.
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
Bo - I haven't been to face to face meetings. I am relying in so many people for help, coubselling and my own therapy that it's impossible to ask someone to come and babysit at night too when their children have school too. I have 3 children. 5, 3 and 21 months. I phoned the UK Alanon helpline and got phone number of lunchtime meetings, weekend meetings but none of them allow children and Inwas recommended to go online and phone AlAnon regularly instead and talk to a volunteer when there is a time I don't habe the girls around (which is usually from 7pm at night hoping that no one wakes up)
Dalbert said
May 4, 2018
My wife and I are starting couples counseling next week. I'm terrified this counselor will be manipulated by my AW and agree I'm to blame for her drinking. If so, it's going to be the end of our marriage. Just rip that band-aid off to get the pain over with ASAP. But, if we do end our marriage? I would love for my AW to stop drinking and say "see? It WAS your fault" I love her so much, I just want her to be happy and healthy. Even if it means I lose her. : (
DavidG said
May 4, 2018
I have been to "big city" groups once or twice, while on holiday... but my home-town base was a small town group. [Could you all Rapid City a city?]
My perspective is about survival... for myself and hopefully my relationships- both romantic and family... and friendships too...
there is a whole heap of recovery time in this group... experience strength and hope... working together- from where I am sitting- it is one of the best... ...
Dutchy said
May 4, 2018
DavidG - this group really is the best I've met.
Dalbert - I am so sorry. Before my husband went into recovery. Couples counsellors didn't want anything to do with us as he was an active alcoholic and there is no working with an active alcoholic. It's difficult enough with a recovering aclocoholic.
Jerry F said
May 4, 2018
Dutchy I found out in time that ours is a "We" program and "We" work it a step at a time, sometimes wee little steps and at other times we repeat the step we learned in the past and now duplicate it again. At first to take it one step at a time and kill my expectations of any glorious revelation for change and many of the membership I stayed in contact with just nurtured me keeping me within my own hula hoop or standing still with patience and submission as we are doing at the moment at a multitude of earth quakes roll beneath the house. My wife is out of her wits and I provide the quiet. Do we have the right to be afraid and angry? She and I are operating on the ability to and then hook up with our HPs. We just reminded each other that we have a 1st step...works pretty good too!
If the phone and computer are the best you can do ...do the best with those. You can click on a members name and make near anonymous contact here. I've done it and it has worked when I worked it. We are family. (((hugs)))
Iamhere said
May 4, 2018
Dutchy - I again recommend you try to online meetings here. They might coincide with your kid time, but it's very easy to stroll away, manage the family and then return read and catch up. There is no judgement for arriving late or leaving early. As with face to face meetings, sharing is optional. They were a godsend to me when I was stuck at home - I did two a day often - to start my day and end my day. Of course, you are in a different time zone so not sure how the times match up with your world - look to the top left and you'll see the schedule and the link to the meeting room.
I have witnessed great fellowship before and after the meeting as well....it's also part of the family - just another work in progress group offering love, support and ESH.
The most important thing I was told to look for in a sponsor was someone who has what you want. The program recommends one year of working recovery before starting sponsoring others. Sponsorship is a tool for both - to continue growth, discovery, healing and living.
For you and Dalbert both - my personal experience with therapists and counselors was challenging. It is difficult to find the 'best one' when I am crazy/in dire need. We had to try many to find a few and quite honestly, the program has given me much more growth than professional support has. That is not about them - it's about me. My willingness to be completely open, honest and humble came about from immense pain and my second visit to Al-Anon was timed perfectly with my HP's 'gift' of desperation. We did have better success with those trained in addiction recovery and family counseling. I did about slap a woman counselor once who got really snappy at me when I was super angry, and told me I need to get a hobby or something.....I was working full time, living with 2 teen-age heroin addicts and 1 actively drinking alcoholic husband. I was doing good to get a shower and brush my teeth each day as they battled constantly - verbally and physically. In my state, parents are held legally responsible for the crimes/actions of non-adult offenders so I spent a ton of time cruising streets looking for my boys in the crappiest parts of the city. So - when it came out of her mouth, I wanted to get up and slap her. I did not but I am certain my eyes burnt holes in her....lol.
I now look back and believe she meant well, just needed a better 'bed-side manner'. Her point of doing something for me was completely missed because of her delivery. For years after that, all 3 of my 'guys' would use that - Get a Hobby - when I wanted to have a discussion about ANYTHING....
So grateful for Al-Anon. That's where I got the best tools to respond to chaos instead of react or take it personally. Go with an open mind - change up the counselor if it's not working. It costs too much $$ to sit and wonder if it's helping....
Dutchy said
May 5, 2018
I know we have decided this counsellor is not it. I am so grateful for my therapist, she understands and helps me tremendously. Polar opposite to the counsellor who doesn't seem to really know and yes he isn't cheap. I will continue here, make more effort to go online and pluck up the courage to find a sponsor here.
In the last week or so,although angry about what happened with the counsellor, I have been feeling more like taking things a day at the time. It's easier and calmer. I have less expectations of my husband which makes life more peaceful. Still I know things are not right as I have constant headaches and stiff neck. I need to figure out what that could be. I am revisiting all the steps I did is and am finding out new things about my thinking. Very interesting and I enjoy doing them as it makes me a better person.
This place is amazing. All the support, all the help. It's very much appreciated. And it really does feel like family!!!
Iamhere - I think I would've headbutted the counsellor too if I was you :)
pinkchip said
May 5, 2018
Im a counselor at a rehab. Understanding alanon has made me a billion times better at working with families.
hotrod said
May 5, 2018
Hi Mark Missed you glad to see you here. As for the "right to be angry" I have learned that YES although i may have the right to be angry that it is a destructive weapon that hurts me. I can acknowledge it, use my alanon tools, look for my part in the situation , learn the lesson and then let it go . That works for me
Dutchy said
May 5, 2018
Yes I feel that's what I've done
Jerry F said
May 5, 2018
When I was in the days of exercising the "rights" to anything I use to make life worse for me and others. Working with the meetings and literature and sponsors regarding choices and consequences and choosing first the consequences I wanted and/or needed I altered my behaviors and outcomes.
I have hurt a lot of people behaving on the "rights" including myself. The amends process changes things afterward and then some of my consequences were very very harmful.
This evening we had our 4th couples counselling and the first thing my husband said was that he relapsed on Monday. I'm not angry about that. I was just relieved I wasn't there. He hasn't told his mum, who he lives with, which I think he should but again that's up to him.
What I am angry about is that the counsellor said that me doing AlAnon and having my own timeline for this situation (and my the rest of my life) is all well and good but that I am not paying attention to my husbands' recovery and that maybe I am not giving him the time he needs to get better. or support him in the correct way as in letting him do what he needs to do so he can concentrate on himself rather than us (I thought that was what I was doing) The counsellor could see my husband really does want to get better but is also battling depression and the embarrassment of relapse is not helping him. My husband has indeed been kicking himself a lot about the things he doesn't do right.
I can understand that there are things my husband can't give and my timeline or my opinions/feelings, which are seen as pressure points towards my husband, are not meant as pressure points at all. Maybe I am not wording it right but I have always been an advocate of honesty and that is what I am trying to be in couples counselling so we all know where we stand.
My husband definitely came across fragile today and said that only people in AA really understand what he going through and that he is going to there as a lifeline. I am absolutely fine with him going to AA even though I sometimes think he forgets to live his life and is getting stuck in his sobriety by only working and going to AA and that is day in and day out. He told me he wants to get to know his children and have a family life. In my opinion this means he has to be flexible with AA times and perhaps find another routines so that he can sometimes be at home in the evening rather than being at AA from 7pm until late.
It's not the first time the counsellor has said something like this which has really upset me. Even my husband agreed that the counsellor was being rather nasty. That my husband does feel the pressure of me moving on with my life when he is nowhere near ready to come along and is just scared but he said that that was his problem and not mine. My husband thinks it's a good thing I am doing AlAnon and has seen positive changes in me which also upset him because I seem so much better than I was and he himself is still nowhere (his words not mine).
The counsellor also asked me what I would do if the 4 coming days (where my husband is going to come over and stay over for the night for the first time since the beginning of January) go pear shaped. Or what if it goes well for 60 days and my husband is 60 days sober and suddenly relapses, what will I do then or what if a relapse happens after 6 months of sobriety and living together again.....I really struggled with this question as I just wanted to see how the next 4 days were going to go. Tomorrow my husband comes here, Saturday we are going out, Sunday is church and Monday our eldest has a birthday party. I prepared to take it one day at the time and see how we get on. I hadn't thought about the negative. I hadn't thought about what I would do if he relapses after 60 days.....probably kick him out back to his mum again or what i would do after 6 months and he relapses.....There is a big difference between being sober for 60 days or 6 months and there is a difference between an occasional relapse or just continuing to drink days on end and not getting back on track. If the latter happened, the marriage would be over for me what I would do about the marriage if things go bad this weekend or after 60 days.....I don't honestly know. Is that bad? I think I would deal with it when it presented itself. I feel myself strong enough to be able to deal with a relapse in a mindful manner (with help from you guys of course). What I don't want to happen is that the children start to feel the tension again, that we'd have to leave, the old song basically. I am not going to play that again. The house is calm. the girls are calm and we are enjoying living in this house and I want to keep it that way. So I guess what will happen when things do go wrong would be that my husband leaves and we talk it over after which a decision will need to be made but I don't think I should make that decision until that has happened. Am I naive?
My only answer to all this was that I would like to see where this marriage can go before I give it up completely although I am starting to have more and more peace with the fact it might not be salvageable as the things I want out of a parent or partner might not ever be possible with my husband who has basically lost 23 years of his life and has to start life again at 37 from scratch.
Short answer, As. [for me] is yes!
Anger fear grief- along with happiness and joy, come from the same place for me.
One day at a time- and sometimes, even, one moment at a time... is all I can do.
Hope the birthday goes okay- early next week...
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My experience is that a lot of otherwise good couples counselors have no real knowledge of alcoholism or best practices. Over the years we had 4 counselors, and none of them had real knowledge of alcoholism, though they said they did. My A would say things like, "Okay, I'll just quit drinking then, not a problem," and I'd say, "It's not that simple and that's not going to work so easily" and the counselor would say, "Mattie, why do you think you can't accept the sincere promises of your husband?" And I'd try to explain and suddenly it would be all about me and my paranoia and my unsupportiveness, not about the previous years of broken promises and denial and dismissiveness. One of the counselors finally admitted she was out of her depth. The others continued to give advice that I now see was actually harmful. It would have been good advice for a non-alcoholic. But active alcoholics have a level of deceptiveness and dishonesty that means they'll never be wholly participating in therapy. Their main goal is to preserve the drinking, not to do whatever it takes to make the marriage better.
Knowing what I know now, I'd never be in counseling with an alcoholic unless the counselor had specific knowledge and experience with alcoholism, not just the day and a half or whatever they get when doing a general counseling degree. Your counselor is setting my alarm bells ringing.
I do feel for my husband. He is already beating himself up because of his relapse and the session today didn't really help either of us although we have started to communicate slightly better and my husband is more open about his feelings and struggles.
I have come to the realization that other people do not wake up and plot, scheme and plan to make me angry. So - my anger is mine to feel, dissect, manage and grow from. She's asking valid questions and if your honest answer is I don't know, then speak it. I always thought I had to have the 'right answer' all the time and that's not reality - that's distorted thinking. I would even spend time researching, googling, analyzing, etc. and what I planned to do made no sense when what I planned for happened.
We've gone through many relapses. It sounds kind of strange, but as time went on, I came to expect them vs. fear them. Simply because this disease tells an alcoholic that a drink is fine. Just one. The problem with that is rarely can an alcoholic stop at one. Yet - the denial and the disease is bigger than the power of a person so his desire and choice to lean into AA is exactly where he needs to be. From personal experience, his meetings, fellowship, program and recovery must be his only and number one priority. He should not feel guilty for wanting to save his life. His disease did not progress to where it is overnight and recovery doesn't come overnight either.
Which comes back to us. Those of us who love the alcoholic. For me, I had to decide to live my life as best I can and to find my joy. I had spent a long while wanting others to provide my joy, fit my model of family and 'be there for me'.....pfffffft - not reality. Even in the best of marriages, there are rough patches and we all need a dose of self-love, trusted friends and support beyond the home to get through it.
When mine relapse, the best service I can offer and give is to leave them to it. Asking questions and offering slogans and platitudes is frowned upon in my small world. I tend to just say, I am sorry for your pain - let me know if I can be of service. While this sounds cold/distant it works best because they 'hear' all other things as judgement, criticism, condemnation or worse.
We did counseling for a while. When I left feeling worse than I arrived or confused by the session, I did write notes to 'seek to clarify'. Sometimes I used them and other times I figured out what was bothering me before the next session.
You are doing great in your recovery and I'm sending you positive thoughts and prayers for a great visit this weekend. One day at a time is always the best way for me to roll - and as David points out - sometimes it's down to one moment at a time.....hang in there and (((hugs))).
I'm so glad I never did the counselling thing because as far as I've read, the disease of alcoholism has never been able to be treated by psychology or counselling or any of the kind of mainstream therapies. I remember reading about how Carl Jung, one of the most respected psychiatrists in the 50s and 60s treated an alcoholic with all he had and he had the humility to eventually tell him there was nothing more he could do and that alcoholism may need a spiritual solution.
The disease is bigger than any 'normal' types of solutions, I believe. Alcoholism can run rings round your average counsellor. Its cunning and baffling.
When I came to Alanon I was offered counselling at the same time but I knew I had already found the answer even if I didn't know the answer and I was scared that a counsellor would influence my thinking, because my thinking was so distorted. I had to decide on my recovery and commit to it. Your post makes me feel so glad I did because just about everything you have posted about your counselors advice seems to me the exact opposite of what Alanon is trying to teach us.
Alanon tells us we have the disease of Alcoholism just the same but without the drinking and to me that means we have the same set of symptoms. I was obsessed with the drinker and so your counsellor encouraging you to pay yet even more attention to your husband is completely crazy to me. I had to detach, look away from him and focus on me and that was for both of our goods. I had to learn and believe and practice step 1 - I am powerless. Your counsellor is taking you away from step 1 telling you that you have power which is very dangerous for us who believed it was our fault.
The what if.... another dangerous thing to do for us. I spent 20 yrs living in the future terrified or living in the past guilty. Alanon tries to teach us to live in this moment. Your husband can't offer you a future right now, what you see is what you get. Hes telling you that he has woken up and thats something to be grateful for, hes spending the time with just about the only people on Earth that have a chance of helping him have a life, any life. Other routes to sobriety? do these exist? I dont know of any, there are no pills to treat it or 12 week program. Its AA every day for the rest of their lives and its the same for us. Ive got to work Alanon principles every day of my life or Im back, miserable, judgemental, immature, crazy basically so this is it. Im actually grateful, alcoholism did me a big favour, putting enough pressure on me to seek out another way to exist and its so much better, like unbelievably better.
I found working with an actual addictions counselor extremely helpful in terms of they get it. They understand the whole scope of the issue. I also found that to be true in working with Dr's in general .. unless they have truly had experience they just don't get it.
Plus the focus IS on the recovering addict vs the whole family and I noticed that with rehab counselors .. I'm sorry it's not all about the addict .. that's my opinion.
Not that this is about me .. however I am dealing with a similar thing with my kid transitioning and one thing I really push back on .. is yes .. I have a kid who is transitioning from female to male .. however .. this affects the WHOLE family .. it does change our relationship to a point and as a family we are mourning the gender expectations. In my mind it's similar to regrouping so to speak and figuring out how do we work within our own family unit. What doesn't change is my kid is my kid .. what does change is the role to a point and the new definition of how we choose to define ourselves which is seriously no one else's business except ours. My kids transition doesn't affect just him .. it affects us ALL as a unit .. so nope .. sorry .. I still have a responsibility to my younger kiddo and my older kiddo is an adult, whom I fully support and love unconditionally .. it's not just about him. He IS responsible for his mental health and while I support him he doesn't get to say well I'm transitioning so I get to (fill in the blank) as an excuse for bad and poor behavior .. sorry for you .. that's not how our family operates.
That is true to me for families affected by addiction .. there are similarities that the roles are redefined and relationships change .. it's neither good or bad it just is and you and your spouse will have to figure out what works and doesn't work for you .. in my mind while his sobriety is important .. that's his part .. your part is taking care of you. I don't see that you are "responsible" for his sobriety. He is and he is responsible for his individual relationships within the family unit.
I don't know if that makes sense however .. that's my experience as well as my opinion in how to best work within a unit to move forward with everything going on. It would be no different for me in dealing with an addict. Personal responsibility is personal responsibility there is no free pass.
Hugs S :)
PS - Do you have a right to be mad .. umm .. yes .. no one gets to tell you how to feel .. what you choose to do with that is up to you and that part is your responsibility.
Whether or not you are healthy, reacting healthy, thinking healthy, letting the anger consume you, and so on and so on...that's an entirely different story.
I've always felt a little bit of anger is a good thing. It can be an ally. To a point.
In my experience, the problem is -- when you are "in it" you can't control the anger. It tends to control you. Many times, you don't even know you are in it. Many times, you are so in it, you are the only one who doesn't know you are so in it.
((((Dutchy)))) A very important word in our recovery is "choices" and we have many of those. Regardless of how we arrive at those choices we pay the consequences. Ours is not a perfect program because we are not perfect...not even close considering there many people, alcoholic or not out there putting judgement on our choices. I have the time ability and facility to make choices and also serve the consequences. This is where a great sponsor has done me right in exercising my choices. You don't need a law to be angry...laws are rights. ((((hugs))))
Sister...get rid of the fear. Do what you have to do for today...today and turn the rest over. My long term sponsor was a person who my first sponsor suggested for me as she was firing me. Yeppers it was that way because my choice making was so screwed up and oppositional to the suggestions. First suggestion? Men on men and women on women soooo I chose a woman and when my ego got in the way I got fired and left with the suggestion of a male sponsor who when I chose to work without opposition turned my program around and helped me get my life back. Today my sponsor is male, from within my own culture, very experienced and knowledgeable. It works when I work it. You still have the choice to be angry....((((hugs))))
As. It would take me 8 or 10 f2f meetings to get to the depth of this group...
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as I said- when you first arrived- this space as evolved as a group- in its own right!
I see people moving alongside of you who would make superb sponsors!!!
... yes...
Have you gone to face to face meetings yes? Has anyone there appealed to you -- appeal in a way that they have: strong program, a good amount of time in the program, and you think they bring a lot to the proverbial table, perhaps in areas of objectivity, accountability, intellect, different and program perspective, and just an overall a quality person who you listen to and you think, yes, they really get it. The person could have a logical and reasoned approach in their way of thinking, how they share about various situations, and most importantly, what they do to get through the trials and tribulations that they face. It helps if they are a constituent who has similar experience, similar dealings, etc. If you can benefit from their experience, their wisdom, and how they "got through" what they got through, you may have yourself a quality sponsor there.
There is also a pamphlet on sponsorship as well. Some meetings even have sponsors and/or temporary sponsors identify themselves.
Or, sure, ask someone here. It can only benefit you. You'll know right away whether it's working or not. A great sponsor -- can save your life. He/she can accelerate your recovery and get you from point a to point b quicker, faster, more expediently, more diligently, and certainly with less damage, pain, etc. A great sponsor can make all the difference in your world. My sponsor saved more lives than the entire cast of the television show M*A*S*H* -- and I was one of them. This, is what I've seen and experienced in almost 25 years in alanon.
I have been to "big city" groups once or twice, while on holiday... but my home-town base was a small town group. [Could you all Rapid City a city?]
My perspective is about survival... for myself and hopefully my relationships- both romantic and family... and friendships too...
there is a whole heap of recovery time in this group... experience strength and hope... working together- from where I am sitting- it is one of the best...
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Dutchy I found out in time that ours is a "We" program and "We" work it a step at a time, sometimes wee little steps and at other times we repeat the step we learned in the past and now duplicate it again. At first to take it one step at a time and kill my expectations of any glorious revelation for change and many of the membership I stayed in contact with just nurtured me keeping me within my own hula hoop or standing still with patience and submission as we are doing at the moment at a multitude of earth quakes roll beneath the house. My wife is out of her wits and I provide the quiet. Do we have the right to be afraid and angry? She and I are operating on the ability to and then hook up with our HPs. We just reminded each other that we have a 1st step...works pretty good too!
If the phone and computer are the best you can do ...do the best with those. You can click on a members name and make near anonymous contact here. I've done it and it has worked when I worked it. We are family. (((hugs)))
I have witnessed great fellowship before and after the meeting as well....it's also part of the family - just another work in progress group offering love, support and ESH.
The most important thing I was told to look for in a sponsor was someone who has what you want. The program recommends one year of working recovery before starting sponsoring others. Sponsorship is a tool for both - to continue growth, discovery, healing and living.
For you and Dalbert both - my personal experience with therapists and counselors was challenging. It is difficult to find the 'best one' when I am crazy/in dire need. We had to try many to find a few and quite honestly, the program has given me much more growth than professional support has. That is not about them - it's about me. My willingness to be completely open, honest and humble came about from immense pain and my second visit to Al-Anon was timed perfectly with my HP's 'gift' of desperation. We did have better success with those trained in addiction recovery and family counseling. I did about slap a woman counselor once who got really snappy at me when I was super angry, and told me I need to get a hobby or something.....I was working full time, living with 2 teen-age heroin addicts and 1 actively drinking alcoholic husband. I was doing good to get a shower and brush my teeth each day as they battled constantly - verbally and physically. In my state, parents are held legally responsible for the crimes/actions of non-adult offenders so I spent a ton of time cruising streets looking for my boys in the crappiest parts of the city. So - when it came out of her mouth, I wanted to get up and slap her. I did not but I am certain my eyes burnt holes in her....lol.
I now look back and believe she meant well, just needed a better 'bed-side manner'. Her point of doing something for me was completely missed because of her delivery. For years after that, all 3 of my 'guys' would use that - Get a Hobby - when I wanted to have a discussion about ANYTHING....
So grateful for Al-Anon. That's where I got the best tools to respond to chaos instead of react or take it personally. Go with an open mind - change up the counselor if it's not working. It costs too much $$ to sit and wonder if it's helping....
In the last week or so,although angry about what happened with the counsellor, I have been feeling more like taking things a day at the time. It's easier and calmer. I have less expectations of my husband which makes life more peaceful. Still I know things are not right as I have constant headaches and stiff neck. I need to figure out what that could be. I am revisiting all the steps I did is and am finding out new things about my thinking. Very interesting and I enjoy doing them as it makes me a better person.
This place is amazing. All the support, all the help. It's very much appreciated. And it really does feel like family!!!
Iamhere - I think I would've headbutted the counsellor too if I was you :)
Hi Mark Missed you glad to see you here.
As for the "right to be angry" I have learned that YES although i may have the right to be angry that it is a destructive weapon that hurts me. I can acknowledge it, use my alanon tools, look for my part in the situation , learn the lesson and then let it go . That works for me
When I was in the days of exercising the "rights" to anything I use to make life worse for me and others. Working with the meetings and literature and sponsors regarding choices and consequences and choosing first the consequences I wanted and/or needed I altered my behaviors and outcomes.
I have hurt a lot of people behaving on the "rights" including myself. The amends process changes things afterward and then some of my consequences were very very harmful.
Great subject. (((hugs)))