there are many problems with friends and families and alcohol in my life, both parents, a sibling, friends, etc; thus i am a member of alanon.
.
i have had decades long problems with the dogma of this program. i am an agnostic, (an atheist, really, in the sense that i believe in no deities), and this isn't, i don't think, going to change, though i am open to evidence, i hope.
.
i'm about unlocking my "hitherto unknown inner resources", open to allowing the intangibles of human interaction to help me, and i believe in talking over our common problems of friends and family and alcohol with a singleness of purpose, no money, no politics, no religion and no personal dominance.
.
i'll read and contemplate anything, or nothing, so long as it seems to be making sense to us.
.
plz contact me if you're interested in talking or chatting.
william
hotrod said
Apr 30, 2018
William Alanon is a spiritual program and not a religious one. We believe that interacting with this dreadful disease causes many to develop negative coping tools that hurt them in living their lives
Alanon holds face to face meetings in most communities and is a "we" program. If you want what we in program experience then attending meetings is suggested. It is a" come as you are "program and no one need to believe in all the principles. You are urged to attend meetings, pick up the literature and "Take what you want and leave the rest. Keep coming back
williamedward27 said
Apr 30, 2018
thank you betty. it isn't a spiritual program for me. it's a humanist program, full of intangibles that probably no one can define, but not, for me, "spiritual".
.
for me the resonance i feel when interacting with other people from like circumstances helps, i believe. this space free from politics, religion, commerce and religion. i have, as a starting point, dismissed all the Literature from Alanon, every word about the steps and any other "program of recovery" offered by Alanon, and stand firm on my belief that simply talking it over, sincerely, with kindred fellows, is, maybe, enough.
.
if i or anyone else wants to go deeper they/i can, but it is in no way required, or forced.
.
william
hotrod said
Apr 30, 2018
William it sounds as if you have explored many avenues to Program recovery. Please do stay around and talk it over
Iamhere said
Apr 30, 2018
Welcome to MIP william - glad you found us and shared. While I do have a spiritual life, program and path and believe in a power greater than me, I fully respect and appreciate your perspective. Hope you stick around and share with us....
williamedward27 said
May 1, 2018
a friend from the fellowship used to always say there is a difference between reacting and responding
Jerry F said
May 1, 2018
William and from my experience there is. In order to clarify that statement I had to self inventory and found what I most practiced before following the elders was react. As a child of the disease for the amount of insanity that cruised thru my life reaction was the practice because taking the time to respond often did include more trauma and loud insanity. One most often used reaction was to run away from home and hide in the jungles around the town. Years later I would find the rooms of Al-Anon.
Keep on keeping on. (((Hugs)))
hotrod said
May 1, 2018
((Jerry)) great explanation of the difference between reacting and responding I can so identify . Today I am pleased that I have learned to take the time to" respond " and let go of my tendency to "react" which gave my power away big time
williamedward27 said
May 1, 2018
in some places (books) there is a description of a stimulus and the gap between that stimulus hitting me and what i choose to do about it. i think i'm currently thinking about it like this: i have my long term values and principles, and, when i respond in accord with these i am fine. quite often my reaction isn't actually aligned with what i want from my overall life.
.
i DO feel like i'm restored to a person has the capacity to respond ... restored to this and maintained in this state ... when i wrestle with the stuff that comes up for me when participating in 12 Tradition meetings and fellowship.
.
i'm grateful for you all
Bo said
May 2, 2018
Alanon is a spiritual program...not a religious one.
Personally, I have always felt that an atheist or an agnostic could still benefit from alanon, even though there is not a "belief" in God. Even if there was not a "belief" in a higher power, I still think someone could benefit from alanon. Perhaps it's the "take what you like and leave the rest" or something of the line.
However, I personally know both atheists and agnostics who came to alanon, found recovery, and got better, found happiness, and more -- and they didn't even deal with the fact that they didn't believe in God, or a higher power. That may not work for all. But I've seen it work.
Also, one last thing, alanon is not a program to get you to reconsider your religious beliefs, lack thereof, or your belief or not in God. There are no musts in alanon.
Just my opinion, my experience, and my perspective.
williamedward27 said
May 2, 2018
thanks bo. for me, alanon is something outside me that i can engage, participate in. there are many tangible and intangible aspects, and it is a psychological, not spiritual, program, for me.
.
i have seem many in alanon and other 12 tradition fellowships that are comfortable as atheists (as i am) who have gotten a lot better through engaging in the process.
w
Bo said
May 3, 2018
I can't speak to the psychological aspect or element of alanon. Maybe that is to each their own. I have heard different people describe alanon differently, however, without question alanon is a spiritual program. Whether or not it is for each member, or each member connects on a spiritual level, is a separate and distinct issue, and an irrelevant one in my opinion.
The important issue -- as you said for you -- is that you are comfortable, and you've seen, known, many who have gotten a lot better. That's all that counts. Take what you like and leave the rest. One of the principles of alanon is attraction, not promotion. All the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 3rd of May 2018 08:44:50 AM
Enigmatic said
May 3, 2018
Hi William, welcome to the board.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. According to your own words, you:
* "have had decades long problems with the dogma of this program."
* "have, as a starting point, dismissed all the Literature from Alanon, every word about the steps and any other "program of recovery" offered by Alanon, and stand firm on my belief that simply talking it over, sincerely, with kindred fellows, is, maybe, enough."
You say you wish to talk it over with "kindred fellows", yet most members of AlAnon and contributors on this board are here voluntarily, seeking relief and comfort from the effects of trying to deal with the drinking of a friend or loved one. "Every word" of the steps and AlAnon publications is used as the basis of discussion and recovery, strength and hope.
You say AlAnon "isn't a spiritual program" for you, yet you say you are:
"about unlocking my "hitherto unknown inner resources", open to allowing the intangibles of human interaction to help me, and i believe in talking over our common problems of friends and family and alcohol with a singleness of purpose"
As you likely recall, intangible carries this meaning:
Intangible:
adjective
1. not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.
This definition is important when discussing what is "spiritual":
Oxford Living Dictionary
Spiritual:
adjective
1) Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare
1.1 Having a relationship based on a profound level of mental or emotional communion.
he never forgot his spiritual father
1.2 (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.
So based upon your own words, it appears that you are open to discussing spiritual things, though you may not realize or acknowledge it. What, then, is holding you back from discussing the spiritual side of AlAnon as does the majority, if not the rest of this group, and as is the stated purpose of this group?
It certainly need not be the fact that you are an agnostic/atheist. AlAnon is based upon the 12 Steps of AA, and Chapter 4 in the AA book "Alcoholics Anonymous" is entitled "We Agnostics", and is written especially for those of us (I, too, am an Agnostic/Atheist) who do not come to AA or AlAnon with a pre-existing god image, assuring that belief in God is not necessary for membership or experiencing its benefits.
All that is suggested is believing that "a power greater than ourselves can lead us to sanity". Some choose to call their higher power "god", some simply higher power, others make up their own name or use no name.
After considering your statements, the question that comes to my mind is, "why come here"? Why seek out a group that is held together by the very things you have long refuted?
You refuse to even read what AlAnon or any other "program of recovery" suggests, have taken issue with what you call the "dogma" of AlAnon "for decades", yet ask multiple times for members to reach out to talk with you, to "go deeper".
I have no interest in discussing AlAnon with someone who is unwilling to read what it has to say. Others may. I am content letting you hold onto your conclusions rather than trying to convince you of those I've reached. AlAnon awareness is about attraction, not promotion.
Becoming involved with the spiritual program of AlAnon is voluntary and does not attempt to address all aspects of the disease of alcoholism. There are other groups who focus on purely physical aspects and empirically supported treatments. There are other options if that is what you seek. It's quite alright if that you find that AlAnon is not for you.
I wish you the best in your journey, whatever it may be.
there are many problems with friends and families and alcohol in my life, both parents, a sibling, friends, etc; thus i am a member of alanon.
.
i have had decades long problems with the dogma of this program. i am an agnostic, (an atheist, really, in the sense that i believe in no deities), and this isn't, i don't think, going to change, though i am open to evidence, i hope.
.
i'm about unlocking my "hitherto unknown inner resources", open to allowing the intangibles of human interaction to help me, and i believe in talking over our common problems of friends and family and alcohol with a singleness of purpose, no money, no politics, no religion and no personal dominance.
.
i'll read and contemplate anything, or nothing, so long as it seems to be making sense to us.
.
plz contact me if you're interested in talking or chatting.
william
William Alanon is a spiritual program and not a religious one. We believe that interacting with this dreadful disease causes many to develop negative coping tools that hurt them in living their lives
Alanon holds face to face meetings in most communities and is a "we" program. If you want what we in program experience then attending meetings is suggested. It is a" come as you are "program and no one need to believe in all the principles. You are urged to attend meetings, pick up the literature and "Take what you want and leave the rest.
Keep coming back
.
for me the resonance i feel when interacting with other people from like circumstances helps, i believe. this space free from politics, religion, commerce and religion. i have, as a starting point, dismissed all the Literature from Alanon, every word about the steps and any other "program of recovery" offered by Alanon, and stand firm on my belief that simply talking it over, sincerely, with kindred fellows, is, maybe, enough.
.
if i or anyone else wants to go deeper they/i can, but it is in no way required, or forced.
.
william
William and from my experience there is. In order to clarify that statement I had to self inventory and found what I most practiced before following the elders was react. As a child of the disease for the amount of insanity that cruised thru my life reaction was the practice because taking the time to respond often did include more trauma and loud insanity. One most often used reaction was to run away from home and hide in the jungles around the town. Years later I would find the rooms of Al-Anon.
Keep on keeping on. (((Hugs)))
((Jerry)) great explanation of the difference between reacting and responding I can so identify . Today I am pleased that I have learned to take the time to" respond " and let go of my tendency to "react" which gave my power away big time
.
i DO feel like i'm restored to a person has the capacity to respond ... restored to this and maintained in this state ... when i wrestle with the stuff that comes up for me when participating in 12 Tradition meetings and fellowship.
.
i'm grateful for you all
Personally, I have always felt that an atheist or an agnostic could still benefit from alanon, even though there is not a "belief" in God. Even if there was not a "belief" in a higher power, I still think someone could benefit from alanon. Perhaps it's the "take what you like and leave the rest" or something of the line.
However, I personally know both atheists and agnostics who came to alanon, found recovery, and got better, found happiness, and more -- and they didn't even deal with the fact that they didn't believe in God, or a higher power. That may not work for all. But I've seen it work.
Also, one last thing, alanon is not a program to get you to reconsider your religious beliefs, lack thereof, or your belief or not in God. There are no musts in alanon.
Just my opinion, my experience, and my perspective.
.
i have seem many in alanon and other 12 tradition fellowships that are comfortable as atheists (as i am) who have gotten a lot better through engaging in the process.
w
I can't speak to the psychological aspect or element of alanon. Maybe that is to each their own. I have heard different people describe alanon differently, however, without question alanon is a spiritual program. Whether or not it is for each member, or each member connects on a spiritual level, is a separate and distinct issue, and an irrelevant one in my opinion.
The important issue -- as you said for you -- is that you are comfortable, and you've seen, known, many who have gotten a lot better. That's all that counts. Take what you like and leave the rest. One of the principles of alanon is attraction, not promotion. All the best.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 3rd of May 2018 08:44:50 AM
Hi William, welcome to the board.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. According to your own words, you:
* "have had decades long problems with the dogma of this program."
* "have, as a starting point, dismissed all the Literature from Alanon, every word about the steps and any other "program of recovery" offered by Alanon, and stand firm on my belief that simply talking it over, sincerely, with kindred fellows, is, maybe, enough."
You say you wish to talk it over with "kindred fellows", yet most members of AlAnon and contributors on this board are here voluntarily, seeking relief and comfort from the effects of trying to deal with the drinking of a friend or loved one. "Every word" of the steps and AlAnon publications is used as the basis of discussion and recovery, strength and hope.
You say AlAnon "isn't a spiritual program" for you, yet you say you are:
"about unlocking my "hitherto unknown inner resources", open to allowing the intangibles of human interaction to help me, and i believe in talking over our common problems of friends and family and alcohol with a singleness of purpose"
As you likely recall, intangible carries this meaning:
Intangible:
adjective
1. not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.
This definition is important when discussing what is "spiritual":
Oxford Living Dictionary
Spiritual:
adjective
1) Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare
1.1 Having a relationship based on a profound level of mental or emotional communion.
he never forgot his spiritual father
1.2 (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.
So based upon your own words, it appears that you are open to discussing spiritual things, though you may not realize or acknowledge it. What, then, is holding you back from discussing the spiritual side of AlAnon as does the majority, if not the rest of this group, and as is the stated purpose of this group?
It certainly need not be the fact that you are an agnostic/atheist. AlAnon is based upon the 12 Steps of AA, and Chapter 4 in the AA book "Alcoholics Anonymous" is entitled "We Agnostics", and is written especially for those of us (I, too, am an Agnostic/Atheist) who do not come to AA or AlAnon with a pre-existing god image, assuring that belief in God is not necessary for membership or experiencing its benefits.
All that is suggested is believing that "a power greater than ourselves can lead us to sanity". Some choose to call their higher power "god", some simply higher power, others make up their own name or use no name.
After considering your statements, the question that comes to my mind is, "why come here"? Why seek out a group that is held together by the very things you have long refuted?
You refuse to even read what AlAnon or any other "program of recovery" suggests, have taken issue with what you call the "dogma" of AlAnon "for decades", yet ask multiple times for members to reach out to talk with you, to "go deeper".
I have no interest in discussing AlAnon with someone who is unwilling to read what it has to say. Others may. I am content letting you hold onto your conclusions rather than trying to convince you of those I've reached. AlAnon awareness is about attraction, not promotion.
Becoming involved with the spiritual program of AlAnon is voluntary and does not attempt to address all aspects of the disease of alcoholism. There are other groups who focus on purely physical aspects and empirically supported treatments. There are other options if that is what you seek. It's quite alright if that you find that AlAnon is not for you.
I wish you the best in your journey, whatever it may be.