I want to run by you the latest development in the ex-abf saga. I received an e-mail from him, sent from his grandfather's e-mail address, the contents similar to the previous messages - he's depressed, doesn't want to live anymore, nobody helps him, I'm bad as I do not reply to his pleas for help, and calling me the only one he wants help from. This is the type of thing he wrote a week or so ago too, and, after calling the police they said as there is no immediate crisis (no concrete suicide plans) they have no basis to do anything (go to ex's flat or something) and the police officer then suggested I should go to the police department and write a complaint (? not sure what it's called in English properly). At the time I chickened out and just blacklisted ex's e-mail so that all his messages go straight to my spam box. At the time that seemed like the next right thing to do, what I was capable of doing, anyway.
Now though its different, and I intend to go to the police department tomorrow after all (its late in the evening). While I do not particularly look forward to it I think this is the right thing to do now - to protect myself. I checked myself by going through the first 4 steps on this, too... While I would love for the ex-abf to find recovery my purpose is to protect myself, and this e-mail yet again proves the ex is not acting in a way that is appropriate (forcing contact on me when it is clear I do not wish to be contacted and have expressed this wish to him as well, emotional blackmail and trying to place responsibility for his life on me - or that's how I perceive it, anyway). And I really do believe he's having a really bad time of life now, its just I'm not capable of being of any help whatsoever, because I can't even be an emotional support for him because I am unable to bring about human-like normal communication with him.
Yesterday there was this excellent reading (from "A Day with: Codependency") which prompted excellent questions about giving up control and how would I feel if I did that in a particular situation or with a particular person. What would I do differently, what would I do now that I did not allow myself to do, how would I take care of myself, what I wouldn't let myself do in the hopes that self-neglect would bring about the changes I want in another person? Etc. Its 100% wonderful and I've saved it for myself to come back and re-read again.
I also wrote out in the 4th step inventory my fear of going to the police department to "rat out" ex-abf (kind of feels like it although I know it isn't like that) and I prayed and I write about it here, and I try to be very honest with myself about my motives.
The feeling I will not deny I have when I see that going to the police is the right thing for me to do is some form of vengefulness, though, and a nasty, angry part of me is really glad the ex might well be getting some of the trouble he's been calling upon himself for a long, long time now. The part that doesn't get that alcoholism is a disease, I suppose.
What I hope to accomplish with the walk to the police is two main things: do something productive so that I may stop being on the receiving end of those horrible messages from ex and stop trying to shoulder any responsibility for the life/well-being of ex, because it really looks like he wants to put a lot of that on me and I don't want it and I shouldn't have to. I think that I will accomplish that with writing to the police. The rest is not up to me...
I think my HP thinks this is what I should do. I'll sleep on it and may talk with my sponsor tomorrow as well. Thanks for reading and being here :)
Bo said
Apr 28, 2018
You sound very grounded in your thought process and expression of what you are feeling, thinking, etc. I love looking at motives, and even more, talking with your sponsor -- great for you! In the past, I experienced the "touch of" -- whatever you want to call it -- vengefullness, vindictiveness, anger, resentment, or something of the like. I talked about this a lot with my sponsor. In my experience, the first thing was to go gentle unto myself. Don't beat yourself up. You are aware, and awareness is so very important. Feeling it was not the problem for me. What my sponsor made sure we worked on immediately was -- letting go, and getting past what I was feeling. I discovered that feeling these things didn't make me a nasty or evil person. It made me human, and it made me a person who wanted to get past those feelings, and just feel compassion for the alcoholic/addict.
Even when my wife was lashing out at me, accusing me, blaming me -- even when she told countless numbers of people, family, friends, that I abandoned her, practically left her in the street, homeless -- I didn't react in kind. What I learned going through all of this, my life lesson learned, was that my wife blaming me was part of the disease. It was very normal. I didn't analyze why, try to figure it out, find all of the answers -- that was a major part of my problem early on before I got better -- I just accepted that she was not well. She was emotionally bankrupt. She was incapable of not lashing out and blaming me. While I didn't accept unacceptable behavior -- meaning I didn't engage with her or reply to her emails, texts, voicemails -- I was "OK" and detached from what she was doing. I just let go of it and then worked on letting go of my negative feelings.
I admire your well thought out process, being so grounded, and sleeping on it and talking to your sponsor tomorrow. All the best.
Aline said
Apr 29, 2018
Thanks for your ESH, Bo, I appreciate it. I only recently have begun to see alcoholism more as an ilness (and codependency as an ilness too) and I still tend to jump to thoughts like "A is an a**", and then I talk to myself that "he's just sick, it isn't personal"... Not my first thought for sure.
Iamhere said
Apr 29, 2018
Aline - I literally put a Q-Tip in my pocket for a long while to remind me to Quit Taking It Personally. It was a challenge to break the old cycle of thinking in my brain, yet I just kept practicing and slowly I changed. I can share honestly that my first thought often is not graceful or loving in moments of real life yet if I practice the pause, I am always given a better way of processing and responding instead of reacting.
What I know from my experience is that the more consistent I am with my boundaries, the faster my guys accepted them. When I grew weak or considered alternatives, it gave the disease in them a 'way in'. I did have to remind myself and be reminded that the disease is cunning, powerful, progressive, manipulative and greater than a human. I did make sure that mine had the phone numbers for the Suicide Hotline as well as the local AA and NA outreach lines.
I knew deep down that I was not the fixer for them and this disease. My many and massive efforts to date had not helped and I just kept referring them to the resources that had the expertise if/when they were willing. I did engage the police when necessary and had to consider, "What would I do if this were another adult and not my son/husband?"
Keep doing you and trusting the process/program. You got this!!
Aline said
Apr 29, 2018
Thanks for your ESH, IAH... Perspective, yes... This is something I haven't really done, thinking what would I do if the A was some other person I haven't been close to...
Today is another day, and I'm not feeling half as sane as yesterday evening... I talked with my sponsor today and that helped, and she also told me that my biggest problem is probably in my head. I can see that - because how can I get better when I keep obsessing about my ex...
I did not go to police, it didn't seem right today. I called his mother, though, to let her know her son is having issues and expressing thoughts of not wanting to live anymore, and she already knew that, so that's that.
Consistent boundaries - well, I haven't really been that consistent. I've told him I don't want to communicate but then communicated regarding a job issue, and on one other occasion. So... Yeah. Hello craziness. Alcoholism is so terribly confusing I suppose I can cut myself some slack - that's what I'm telling myself now, because otherwise I'm bound to feel stupid and embarrassed.
However things unfold, its much better that I now don't try and go through all this on my own... The support in this program is wonderful when I let myself be open for it... That's one thing I'm positive I'm doing right at this moment, looking for support.
Iamhere said
Apr 29, 2018
Hey Aline - all that you're experiencing is exactly how we learn....I too struggled with consistency and I am not inflexible - I try to be consistent but flexible when needed. I always tell myself that if my feet are facing forward and my mind is open, I am headed in the right direction.
Keep reaching out - that was so very helpful for me to hear from others their ESH. Helped me really feel that there is not any perfect way, but plenty of options most of the time.
(((Hugs)))
Bo said
Apr 29, 2018
Aline wrote:
Thanks for your ESH, Bo, I appreciate it. I only recently have begun to see alcoholism more as an ilness (and codependency as an ilness too) and I still tend to jump to thoughts like "A is an a**", and then I talk to myself that "he's just sick, it isn't personal"... Not my first thought for sure.
LOL...I immediately jumped to those thoughts as well. It's the anger, resentment, prejudicial thinking, etc. I separate the person from the disease. I imagine they had the word sick or disease or illness tattooed across their forehead so that only I could see it. Really, the answer for me was acceptance. I immersed myself in it. Once I mastered that, everything else just fell into place. It was like the first domino falling. I was then able to get past, and let go of the anger and resentment.
It was amazing -- being in a place where I felt OK, good, and that she wasn't doing it to me -- she was just doing it. Period. But, you're good, you have your initial thought...and then comes what I call "the program pause" -- and then you are back on track again! Great for you. Keep seeing the disease.
Codependency is brutal, because that is one we can directly have and suffer from. Keep an eye out for it. All the best.
SerenityRUS said
Apr 30, 2018
Hugs Aline,
I think I have a different thought process because of what I experienced with my XAH .. and my A is an a$$ there is no question. It is who he is and that's not on me, you know he's shows the rest of the world who he is by showing who he is and trust me when I say I believe him. Yes my XAH is sick and I give that to him on that level .. however and that is a BIG HOWEVER .. alcoholic active or sober is still responsible for his behavior, consequences good or bad NO DIFFERENT THAN ME. Just because he's sick doesn't give him a pass to continue to trespass against me or the kiddos and because of the safety issues I had with him I absolutely am much more likely to remind him to mind his place in our lives. He has a very limited one.
What I REALLY encourage you to do is when you check your motives one I would definitely figure out is do you feel threatened in terms of is he being violent and so on. I had a conversation with someone this weekend and one thing I pointed out is an active A is a wounded animal on many levels (I qualify there as well when I am in my sick thinking) .. don't go poke a wounded animal just because you can .. however if that wounded animal starts to hunt then it's time to throw up safety boundaries and if that's what you are feeling I absolutely encourage you to put up a stronger wall because no .. no means no .. and NO ONE has a right to trespass in an aggressive manner. There is never a need to feel unsafe and in that regard DO protect yourself and talk to those who have been there done that because it's not ok.
You sound fantastic and good on you for looking at your motives to make sure you are coming from a clean on your side of the street.
Big hugs :) As my wise sponsor always suggested just keep coming back.
S :)
Aline said
May 2, 2018
Hi,
I'm back with some of the same old, something new too, my sponsor is away on a holiday and I don't want to call her now.
My ex-abf called today from his grandfather's phone... He can't from his own because I've blocked the number.
Short version of recent events - ex-abf is in a state of mind that he doesn't want any help except to talk to/with me, and makes out like I'm the only one he wants or will accept help from..... Yesterday I wrote to him the AA number and the crisis hotline number.
Today I talked with my mom on the phone a bit about all this mess and there's something she pointed out to me, something I'd forgotten - it has always been like this with ex-abf, even early in our relationship at 16-17 years... He would call with some crisis and I would rush off to save the day... This actually does make me feel better because this shows he has been like that since the start, I didn't cause him to rely on me so much... The 3 Cs, right... I thought I "got" that long ago but it turns out I haven't really. Well, it also shows I've been like that since the beginning.
So his family knows about him expressing thoughts of not wanting to live. I've provided contact info for him to call if he chooses to get help. He keeps pushing at me and pushing at me, and making out like I'm responsible for whether he goes on living or no. And I, like I've ALWAYS done, keep feeling responsible for him. The last message (before he called, I went into my spam... ) said if I don't talk with him sometime soon, he's going to kill himself.
I do still have the option to going to the police which I have not ruled out yet. Maybe that's the only thing to do. But in a way I'm glad I haven't yet because I finally begin to see more clearly what I have been and am doing to myself, running away from myself by worrying about another. I am (again) ashamed of admitting all this because I feel I should know better by now, but the more open I am about where I am the more help I can receive, I begin to see (finally), and I need help. And I pray a lot these days too. And I feel calmer when I am honest and just let others think of me what they may. It may be I'm finally learning to let go and let God, and loosen my death grip on problems that I can't solve by myself.
I was at a meeting on Monday where I admitted loudly to others what I've been ashamedly and arrogantly carrying in myself before - I told them I'm feeling superior and feel like I'll now enlighten them with my wisdom. They laughed! And I was amused a bit too. It was freeing to admit this loudly and somehow I felt in that moment at least partly the ridiculousness of that thought, which I couldn't see when I was sitting on it, both self-righteous and ashamed. I came to this program because I was going nuts and that desperation kept me here, I just don't ever want to go back to how I was. I do still feel like I know everything and am the master of the universe, but the thought has lost some of its potency since I've openly admitted it, accepted it, and I really feel a bit of more common sense leaking into me. And there's that ridiculous side of it too, which helps.
So I'm a bit more free now. Its good for me.
Back to the initial issue, I am lost. The fact that ex is trying to put his life in my hands (whether it is a manipulation or not) does not, in reality, make it my responsibility. Still, I have contributed so much to the disfunction over the years, I was a major, major enabler... I feel like if he does kill himself now in a grip of the thought that I was supposed to "help" him... Won't there be my part in the mere fact that I've helped cultivate the disease for so long? I didn't know any better, sure. And if he is sick, so am I, clearly.
But there's no guarantee anything I could do would help, and I don't want to speak with him, really, or even have contact... Because all communication just comes to blaming me, sooner or later, and I want to get healthier and saner, and he wants my emotional support or just attention, well, he's getting the latter, but I won't give him the former. Not now. I've done a lot of things wrong, but so has he. I'm not gonna go and support him because all I can get back is nastiness, and I'm not doing that, at least, to myself anymore.
I don't know what to do. I'm afraid of him killing himself. I'm afraid to go to police to file a report about his messages and maybe if I don't he'll end up killing himself. Or he may do that if I do, too. I know we are supposed to trust HP, but I'm afraid. I have to take care of myself, and this worrying isn't good for me and there's the added "bonus" of taking the focus off myself. The 4th step inventory on these fears shows as much, that I don't want to take responsibility for myself but readily try and take responsibility for the A. I want someone to tell me what to do, honestly, but its not like even if I knew for sure the best possible course of action that I would like it... HP seems like the best one for this telling me what to do job. I hope I let him.
SerenityRUS said
May 2, 2018
Big hugs,
I'm going to suggest easy does it. Looking at all of this is like trying to eat an elephant all in one bite that's never going to happen.
My thoughts based upon my XAH was when he made threats I called the police and this is true for his mental health as well. YOU have to know that you are willing to accept whatever the outcome is and in my case it was rage from him .. he couldn't believe "You betrayed me" and boy did I pay for that .. well and so did he .. he went to the hospital .. he went to jail. End game. I don't regret it and I would do it again .. I never want to look at my kids or have any kind of regret that I didn't reach out to the people who could help him more than I could. When my kids were like mom please call the police .. then guess what .. I called the police. As the adult .. that was MY choice and I take 100% of the responsibility. BIG TIME.
I think based upon my experience I did feel superior to my ex and I'm probably guilty of that even now, I had all kinds of twisted thinking that I played a role and he wanted that because as long as I was sucked into everything he didn't have to take responsibility for his actions and I didn't have to take responsibility for mine as weird as that sounds. After all it was all HIM as to why I did what I did and it and why would he need to accept any responsibility as long as I fixed anything or appeared that I could even if it was outside of my pay grade for the job.
I still say .. sit .. be still .. ask your HP for guidance and wait. You have options and you probably have more choices than you realize .. I always got tunnel vision when trying to deal with an issue and there is always more than one choice .. I just might not like it. :)
Again .. hugs .. you keep doing you .. just keep coming back and lean into your program .. your answers will come to you.
S :)
Iamhere said
May 2, 2018
(((Aline))) - All I know is that if I keep giving my power away, they'll keep taking it. Over and over and over again - it has happened more times that I can recall. However, it's my sons and I have to keep giving them chances to show me who they are growing into.
It took me a long time in recovery to realize I not only struggle to create boundaries for my self, I can also fall right into caretaking for people that should be able to do for themselves. I am a big believer in those with this disease need to become program reliant and self-reliant. I had to keep telling myself when I felt a 'want' to engage that they know where to g if they truly want the gift of recovery and serenity. It's not been easy to sit on my hands and allow them to flounder yet it's been worth it.
I do not EVER 'play' with one threatening self/other harm. I will call the authorities every time and there are no exceptions. I am not an expert if someone is trying to play me or serious so remove myself and allow those with the creds. to evaluate and act. My sons no longer threaten suicide (at least to me) and I still don't know if they were playing or serious - and don't need to know as that's between them and their HP.
The only way I know to stop the merry-go-round that this disease brings is to get off. Hard as it may be, it was necessary for me to literally detach physically when the insanity was too much. Loving someone from across the street or city has been a great way for me to practice this program and letting go so they can travel their own journey.
Hang in there - pause long enough to consider what you need and I am certain the answers will come...(((Hugs)))
Aline said
May 3, 2018
Thank you for your support. I went to the police department this morning and wrote a report. They said they would process it in 30 days. I asked what if the ex kills himself meanwhile and they said I should call the ambulance in emergency. I'm not capable of waiting patiently for emergency that seems on the way, besides, very early this morning the ex wrote an email to me (I checked the spam box...) in which he again stated if I don't help him he is ending his life. So I called the ambulance and asked them to go to ex's flat because I believe there is a real possibility of suicide occuring, while not being entirely sure he's at home which I told them too. I don't think they were impressed by the whole situation. Never mind... I filed the report as well, about receiving suicide threats and not being left alone. It seemed a bit silly when I wrote it but who cares, right? Its not funny when it happens. Sitting quietly while the ex is bugging me is me being a victim and its not OK what he is doing. Let the police do what seems best to them with my report. This is all a lot to cope with. The results from this morning I can't know, but now I've done what I can and stopped sitting on my hands going mad while another person might kill himself at any time.
Dutchy said
May 3, 2018
I've been reading through this for a few days and I feel that there is some manipulation going on (I could be really wrong). Because if you don't look after him and help him and is there for him then who is. Maybe he knows he can't look after himself and is trying things this way to keep you close. I think you've done the right things and maybe it's time to let the police deal with it and try to let go of your ex-abf. There is nothing you can do to make it or him better or anything you can do for him only yourself. He will do whatever he will do and it's so hard. I'm not sure if I'm of any help at all, hopefully a little bit (((hugs)))
Aline said
May 3, 2018
Thanks, Dutchy, all support is good :)
Bo said
May 3, 2018
Aline wrote:
Thank you for your support. I went to the police department this morning and wrote a report. They said they would process it in 30 days. I asked what if the ex kills himself meanwhile and they said I should call the ambulance in emergency. I'm not capable of waiting patiently for emergency that seems on the way, besides, very early this morning the ex wrote an email to me (I checked the spam box...) in which he again stated if I don't help him he is ending his life. So I called the ambulance and asked them to go to ex's flat because I believe there is a real possibility of suicide occuring, while not being entirely sure he's at home which I told them too. I don't think they were impressed by the whole situation. Never mind... I filed the report as well, about receiving suicide threats and not being left alone. It seemed a bit silly when I wrote it but who cares, right? Its not funny when it happens. Sitting quietly while the ex is bugging me is me being a victim and its not OK what he is doing. Let the police do what seems best to them with my report. This is all a lot to cope with. The results from this morning I can't know, but now I've done what I can and stopped sitting on my hands going mad while another person might kill himself at any time.
Aline, forget about wanting him to find recovery, get better, etc. Once that comes into any discussion, any engagement, you are in it. And, here, you are being manipulated and harrassed. His threats are meant to suck you in, into the back and forth, back into communications, and so on and so on. No, it's not easy to be in the situation you are in. Nothing changes if nothing changes. During my separation, my wife attempted suicide. I am not trivializing it, but even according to the doctors, it was a quasi, half-hearted attempt, albeit, an attempt. That said, after that there was a phase similar to what you are going through. I'd get calls from her friends that I needed to check on her, she will only talk to me, etc. I said no, and I immediately detached. I told them if they had those concerns they should call 911, her family, etc., or they should check on her. Then my wife turned up the heat, LOL. After I detached and cut off all communication -- blocked texts and email and calls -- I refused to open/read any texts from other people she knew and her family members. She was assured that these communications would not be read, would be deleted, etc. I also stopped answering calls from unknown numbers.
Understand something, while I am not twisting this around -- and I want to be clear here -- this is harassment. Thus, there is a victimization going on here. Manipulation, pressure, etc. You did the right thing calling the police, and the ambulance -- and look, they weren't impressed. They saw more than you did, they are professionals, and they weren't impressed?
Keep doing what you are supposed to be doing for you -- detach, physically and emotionally. Don't engage and participate in any of this. Don't have a role, don't participate. Focus on YOU. Talk to your sponsor as soon as he/she gets back. Spike up your meetings. Hang in there.
Bo
Aline said
May 3, 2018
Thanks for your share, Bo. I went to a meeting today and am feeling better. It was a good meeting, and something one sister spoke really resonated with me and this recent situation. We had a topic about how to stop being in a role of the victim, and she said that first she has to see she's a victim to stop being one. That rang a bell for me. What my ex was doing, harassment... That was my norm since the beginning of our relationship, I didn't mind him harassing me, I didn't see it that way at all, I thought it was love! - He needs me, can't wait to see me etc. Turns out my normal is not normal or healthy at all, and I can't say I'm really, truly getting it, not yet. Its only when my behind is on fire. Thanks again, MIP family, you have been very supportive and it really helped me get through this situation.
Bo said
May 3, 2018
Yes, stop being one. I get it. I've long heard in meetings...if you are tired of being a doormat...then get up off the floor!!! How true.
You are right -- and I said the same thing -- MY NORMAL WAS NOT NORMAL AT ALL...AND MY NORMAL WAS NOT HEALTHY!!! I didn't know. Because it was my normal!!! LOL. Funny now, LOL. Not then.
You are getting it. You are starting to see it, feel it, and most of all have awareness!!! You are getting it!!! Don't stop. Keep it up. You are doing great. Keep doing it.
Mattie said
May 3, 2018
This is a stressful situation for you, no question. Others have said wise things. I have some thoughts, apart from the very basic thought that in NO WAY are you responsible for his actions even if he were to commit suicide. Like, there are a dozen suicide hotlines, there are emergency rooms, there are counselors, there are AA meetings, there are literally hundreds of resources out there, and if you, an untrained amateur, don't talk to him, he has no choice in his despair but to commit suicide? There are literally hundreds of people better qualified than you to know how to help a suicidal person. Literally hundreds! It's like saying, "If you don't treat my broken bone I'm going to break it further because there are no doctors in this country!"
So it's clear that he's not saying "Help me." Because there are hundreds of people who could give better help, because that's what they do for a living. What he's saying is, "If you don't talk to me, I'm going to commit suicide to get back at you." Now, whether he means that, who knows. Maybe so, maybe not, maybe he thinks he does but he actually wouldn't. But the fact is that that is the reasoning of a person who has lost his grip on reality. And that needs a professional to treat it. You talking to him wouldn't treat the underlying problem. It would just delay his attempts at control until the next time he wanted to control you.
Every time he threatens something drastic unless you cooperate, and you do cooperate (out of kind feelings or fear for his safety), he is inadvertently rewarded for using those means to try to control you. So if you cave and agree to talk to him, you are actually rewarding him for that behavior, and reinforcing his tendency to do it. He will try even more fervently the next time, because he knows this is a method that works. It keeps him from trying other methods to ease his emotions, like professional help. It also makes him think of "suicide" as the go-to response to try to get what he wants. So paradoxically, trying to help him not commit suicide is actually reinforcing suicide in his mind.
I hope he has no tendencies towards violence. I worry that when he realizes you're moving away and won't be in his control any longer, he may try something physical or violent. Please keep yourself safe. I think you are in more danger than he is in. I'm glad you got the police involved. Take good care of yourself.
Aline said
May 3, 2018
THANK YOU, Bo, Mattie for your shares...
I think I'm safe, physically.
I'm GRATEFUL beyond words for you all and for this program.
Jerry F said
May 3, 2018
Just had a mighty earthquake here in Hilo and right before it got a queer smelling atmosphere and some mighty sneezes. LOL trying not to blaming myself ...jest funning. Volcano's having trauma now and for the past couple of weeks. My HP might be cleaning the vents. House is still standing and gonna go check water and gas services.
Be safe!!...(((hugs)))
Aline said
May 4, 2018
Thanks, Jerry. You be safe too! Hopefully everything is still in its place. I've never experienced an earthquake of any significant magnitude nor have I been near to an active volcano. It sounds scary. In Northern-Eastern Europe its often hoping to get more of the summertime and not getting enough, and the scariest weather here is strong wind that tries to blow people off their course or bigger hail sometimes that can do damage to cars and must hurt pretty bad if anyone happens to be out in the open.
Iamhere said
May 4, 2018
Jerry - sending prayers your way. I hope all in harm's way have gotten safely evacuated. The news is weak so .... stay safe - sending love and light!
Aline - It was really, really hard for me to grasp that I was putting myself into the victim role. I was helped greatly by my sponsor who kept gently reminding me over and over and over again that I always have the choice to pause, walk away, leave for a bit, etc. to collect myself and find my truth.
Very easy things she gifted me include - "Let me think on that for a while." "I need time to process this." "I am not sure how I feel about that." "I need some time to pray." These are all neutral and get me out of saying something I might regret later or get me out of being reacting and owing an amends.
I had to be reminded that I met and married my AH for a reason and would pray for him and for God's will. I had to be reminded that whether I like them or not, these are my children....I am able and willing to go 'no contact' with them if necessary for my sanity and safety yet love them unconditionally. Still today, when I get wrapped up in future tripping, it brings fear of the unknown....I do so much better when I can stay focused on today, stand in my truth of today and trust God.
I learned in Al-Anon that when I am spiritually fit, I truly see all folks I encounter as equals - doing the best they can with what they have. We all have crosses to bear and I have been focused this year on 'Seek to Understand' rather than be understood. Just some food for thought - as always - do you and take what works for you!
Aline said
May 4, 2018
Thank you for your ESH, IAH, I always appreciate your thoughts.
Hi, MIP friends,
I want to run by you the latest development in the ex-abf saga. I received an e-mail from him, sent from his grandfather's e-mail address, the contents similar to the previous messages - he's depressed, doesn't want to live anymore, nobody helps him, I'm bad as I do not reply to his pleas for help, and calling me the only one he wants help from. This is the type of thing he wrote a week or so ago too, and, after calling the police they said as there is no immediate crisis (no concrete suicide plans) they have no basis to do anything (go to ex's flat or something) and the police officer then suggested I should go to the police department and write a complaint (? not sure what it's called in English properly). At the time I chickened out and just blacklisted ex's e-mail so that all his messages go straight to my spam box. At the time that seemed like the next right thing to do, what I was capable of doing, anyway.
Now though its different, and I intend to go to the police department tomorrow after all (its late in the evening). While I do not particularly look forward to it I think this is the right thing to do now - to protect myself. I checked myself by going through the first 4 steps on this, too... While I would love for the ex-abf to find recovery my purpose is to protect myself, and this e-mail yet again proves the ex is not acting in a way that is appropriate (forcing contact on me when it is clear I do not wish to be contacted and have expressed this wish to him as well, emotional blackmail and trying to place responsibility for his life on me - or that's how I perceive it, anyway). And I really do believe he's having a really bad time of life now, its just I'm not capable of being of any help whatsoever, because I can't even be an emotional support for him because I am unable to bring about human-like normal communication with him.
Yesterday there was this excellent reading (from "A Day with: Codependency") which prompted excellent questions about giving up control and how would I feel if I did that in a particular situation or with a particular person. What would I do differently, what would I do now that I did not allow myself to do, how would I take care of myself, what I wouldn't let myself do in the hopes that self-neglect would bring about the changes I want in another person? Etc. Its 100% wonderful and I've saved it for myself to come back and re-read again.
I also wrote out in the 4th step inventory my fear of going to the police department to "rat out" ex-abf (kind of feels like it although I know it isn't like that) and I prayed and I write about it here, and I try to be very honest with myself about my motives.
The feeling I will not deny I have when I see that going to the police is the right thing for me to do is some form of vengefulness, though, and a nasty, angry part of me is really glad the ex might well be getting some of the trouble he's been calling upon himself for a long, long time now. The part that doesn't get that alcoholism is a disease, I suppose.
What I hope to accomplish with the walk to the police is two main things: do something productive so that I may stop being on the receiving end of those horrible messages from ex and stop trying to shoulder any responsibility for the life/well-being of ex, because it really looks like he wants to put a lot of that on me and I don't want it and I shouldn't have to. I think that I will accomplish that with writing to the police. The rest is not up to me...
I think my HP thinks this is what I should do. I'll sleep on it and may talk with my sponsor tomorrow as well. Thanks for reading and being here :)
Even when my wife was lashing out at me, accusing me, blaming me -- even when she told countless numbers of people, family, friends, that I abandoned her, practically left her in the street, homeless -- I didn't react in kind. What I learned going through all of this, my life lesson learned, was that my wife blaming me was part of the disease. It was very normal. I didn't analyze why, try to figure it out, find all of the answers -- that was a major part of my problem early on before I got better -- I just accepted that she was not well. She was emotionally bankrupt. She was incapable of not lashing out and blaming me. While I didn't accept unacceptable behavior -- meaning I didn't engage with her or reply to her emails, texts, voicemails -- I was "OK" and detached from what she was doing. I just let go of it and then worked on letting go of my negative feelings.
I admire your well thought out process, being so grounded, and sleeping on it and talking to your sponsor tomorrow. All the best.
What I know from my experience is that the more consistent I am with my boundaries, the faster my guys accepted them. When I grew weak or considered alternatives, it gave the disease in them a 'way in'. I did have to remind myself and be reminded that the disease is cunning, powerful, progressive, manipulative and greater than a human. I did make sure that mine had the phone numbers for the Suicide Hotline as well as the local AA and NA outreach lines.
I knew deep down that I was not the fixer for them and this disease. My many and massive efforts to date had not helped and I just kept referring them to the resources that had the expertise if/when they were willing. I did engage the police when necessary and had to consider, "What would I do if this were another adult and not my son/husband?"
Keep doing you and trusting the process/program. You got this!!
Today is another day, and I'm not feeling half as sane as yesterday evening... I talked with my sponsor today and that helped, and she also told me that my biggest problem is probably in my head. I can see that - because how can I get better when I keep obsessing about my ex...
I did not go to police, it didn't seem right today. I called his mother, though, to let her know her son is having issues and expressing thoughts of not wanting to live anymore, and she already knew that, so that's that.
Consistent boundaries - well, I haven't really been that consistent. I've told him I don't want to communicate but then communicated regarding a job issue, and on one other occasion. So... Yeah. Hello craziness. Alcoholism is so terribly confusing I suppose I can cut myself some slack - that's what I'm telling myself now, because otherwise I'm bound to feel stupid and embarrassed.
However things unfold, its much better that I now don't try and go through all this on my own... The support in this program is wonderful when I let myself be open for it... That's one thing I'm positive I'm doing right at this moment, looking for support.
Keep reaching out - that was so very helpful for me to hear from others their ESH. Helped me really feel that there is not any perfect way, but plenty of options most of the time.
(((Hugs)))
LOL...I immediately jumped to those thoughts as well. It's the anger, resentment, prejudicial thinking, etc. I separate the person from the disease. I imagine they had the word sick or disease or illness tattooed across their forehead so that only I could see it. Really, the answer for me was acceptance. I immersed myself in it. Once I mastered that, everything else just fell into place. It was like the first domino falling. I was then able to get past, and let go of the anger and resentment.
It was amazing -- being in a place where I felt OK, good, and that she wasn't doing it to me -- she was just doing it. Period. But, you're good, you have your initial thought...and then comes what I call "the program pause" -- and then you are back on track again! Great for you. Keep seeing the disease.
Codependency is brutal, because that is one we can directly have and suffer from. Keep an eye out for it. All the best.
I think I have a different thought process because of what I experienced with my XAH .. and my A is an a$$ there is no question. It is who he is and that's not on me, you know he's shows the rest of the world who he is by showing who he is and trust me when I say I believe him. Yes my XAH is sick and I give that to him on that level .. however and that is a BIG HOWEVER .. alcoholic active or sober is still responsible for his behavior, consequences good or bad NO DIFFERENT THAN ME. Just because he's sick doesn't give him a pass to continue to trespass against me or the kiddos and because of the safety issues I had with him I absolutely am much more likely to remind him to mind his place in our lives. He has a very limited one.
What I REALLY encourage you to do is when you check your motives one I would definitely figure out is do you feel threatened in terms of is he being violent and so on. I had a conversation with someone this weekend and one thing I pointed out is an active A is a wounded animal on many levels (I qualify there as well when I am in my sick thinking) .. don't go poke a wounded animal just because you can .. however if that wounded animal starts to hunt then it's time to throw up safety boundaries and if that's what you are feeling I absolutely encourage you to put up a stronger wall because no .. no means no .. and NO ONE has a right to trespass in an aggressive manner. There is never a need to feel unsafe and in that regard DO protect yourself and talk to those who have been there done that because it's not ok.
You sound fantastic and good on you for looking at your motives to make sure you are coming from a clean on your side of the street.
Big hugs :) As my wise sponsor always suggested just keep coming back.
S :)
I'm back with some of the same old, something new too, my sponsor is away on a holiday and I don't want to call her now.
My ex-abf called today from his grandfather's phone... He can't from his own because I've blocked the number.
Short version of recent events - ex-abf is in a state of mind that he doesn't want any help except to talk to/with me, and makes out like I'm the only one he wants or will accept help from..... Yesterday I wrote to him the AA number and the crisis hotline number.
Today I talked with my mom on the phone a bit about all this mess and there's something she pointed out to me, something I'd forgotten - it has always been like this with ex-abf, even early in our relationship at 16-17 years... He would call with some crisis and I would rush off to save the day... This actually does make me feel better because this shows he has been like that since the start, I didn't cause him to rely on me so much... The 3 Cs, right... I thought I "got" that long ago but it turns out I haven't really. Well, it also shows I've been like that since the beginning.
So his family knows about him expressing thoughts of not wanting to live. I've provided contact info for him to call if he chooses to get help. He keeps pushing at me and pushing at me, and making out like I'm responsible for whether he goes on living or no. And I, like I've ALWAYS done, keep feeling responsible for him. The last message (before he called, I went into my spam... ) said if I don't talk with him sometime soon, he's going to kill himself.
I do still have the option to going to the police which I have not ruled out yet. Maybe that's the only thing to do. But in a way I'm glad I haven't yet because I finally begin to see more clearly what I have been and am doing to myself, running away from myself by worrying about another. I am (again) ashamed of admitting all this because I feel I should know better by now, but the more open I am about where I am the more help I can receive, I begin to see (finally), and I need help. And I pray a lot these days too. And I feel calmer when I am honest and just let others think of me what they may. It may be I'm finally learning to let go and let God, and loosen my death grip on problems that I can't solve by myself.
I was at a meeting on Monday where I admitted loudly to others what I've been ashamedly and arrogantly carrying in myself before - I told them I'm feeling superior and feel like I'll now enlighten them with my wisdom. They laughed! And I was amused a bit too. It was freeing to admit this loudly and somehow I felt in that moment at least partly the ridiculousness of that thought, which I couldn't see when I was sitting on it, both self-righteous and ashamed. I came to this program because I was going nuts and that desperation kept me here, I just don't ever want to go back to how I was. I do still feel like I know everything and am the master of the universe, but the thought has lost some of its potency since I've openly admitted it, accepted it, and I really feel a bit of more common sense leaking into me. And there's that ridiculous side of it too, which helps.
So I'm a bit more free now. Its good for me.
Back to the initial issue, I am lost. The fact that ex is trying to put his life in my hands (whether it is a manipulation or not) does not, in reality, make it my responsibility. Still, I have contributed so much to the disfunction over the years, I was a major, major enabler... I feel like if he does kill himself now in a grip of the thought that I was supposed to "help" him... Won't there be my part in the mere fact that I've helped cultivate the disease for so long? I didn't know any better, sure. And if he is sick, so am I, clearly.
But there's no guarantee anything I could do would help, and I don't want to speak with him, really, or even have contact... Because all communication just comes to blaming me, sooner or later, and I want to get healthier and saner, and he wants my emotional support or just attention, well, he's getting the latter, but I won't give him the former. Not now. I've done a lot of things wrong, but so has he. I'm not gonna go and support him because all I can get back is nastiness, and I'm not doing that, at least, to myself anymore.
I don't know what to do. I'm afraid of him killing himself. I'm afraid to go to police to file a report about his messages and maybe if I don't he'll end up killing himself. Or he may do that if I do, too. I know we are supposed to trust HP, but I'm afraid. I have to take care of myself, and this worrying isn't good for me and there's the added "bonus" of taking the focus off myself. The 4th step inventory on these fears shows as much, that I don't want to take responsibility for myself but readily try and take responsibility for the A. I want someone to tell me what to do, honestly, but its not like even if I knew for sure the best possible course of action that I would like it... HP seems like the best one for this telling me what to do job. I hope I let him.
I'm going to suggest easy does it. Looking at all of this is like trying to eat an elephant all in one bite that's never going to happen.
My thoughts based upon my XAH was when he made threats I called the police and this is true for his mental health as well. YOU have to know that you are willing to accept whatever the outcome is and in my case it was rage from him .. he couldn't believe "You betrayed me" and boy did I pay for that .. well and so did he .. he went to the hospital .. he went to jail. End game. I don't regret it and I would do it again .. I never want to look at my kids or have any kind of regret that I didn't reach out to the people who could help him more than I could. When my kids were like mom please call the police .. then guess what .. I called the police. As the adult .. that was MY choice and I take 100% of the responsibility. BIG TIME.
I think based upon my experience I did feel superior to my ex and I'm probably guilty of that even now, I had all kinds of twisted thinking that I played a role and he wanted that because as long as I was sucked into everything he didn't have to take responsibility for his actions and I didn't have to take responsibility for mine as weird as that sounds. After all it was all HIM as to why I did what I did and it and why would he need to accept any responsibility as long as I fixed anything or appeared that I could even if it was outside of my pay grade for the job.
I still say .. sit .. be still .. ask your HP for guidance and wait. You have options and you probably have more choices than you realize .. I always got tunnel vision when trying to deal with an issue and there is always more than one choice .. I just might not like it. :)
Again .. hugs .. you keep doing you .. just keep coming back and lean into your program .. your answers will come to you.
S :)
It took me a long time in recovery to realize I not only struggle to create boundaries for my self, I can also fall right into caretaking for people that should be able to do for themselves. I am a big believer in those with this disease need to become program reliant and self-reliant. I had to keep telling myself when I felt a 'want' to engage that they know where to g if they truly want the gift of recovery and serenity. It's not been easy to sit on my hands and allow them to flounder yet it's been worth it.
I do not EVER 'play' with one threatening self/other harm. I will call the authorities every time and there are no exceptions. I am not an expert if someone is trying to play me or serious so remove myself and allow those with the creds. to evaluate and act. My sons no longer threaten suicide (at least to me) and I still don't know if they were playing or serious - and don't need to know as that's between them and their HP.
The only way I know to stop the merry-go-round that this disease brings is to get off. Hard as it may be, it was necessary for me to literally detach physically when the insanity was too much. Loving someone from across the street or city has been a great way for me to practice this program and letting go so they can travel their own journey.
Hang in there - pause long enough to consider what you need and I am certain the answers will come...(((Hugs)))
Aline, forget about wanting him to find recovery, get better, etc. Once that comes into any discussion, any engagement, you are in it. And, here, you are being manipulated and harrassed. His threats are meant to suck you in, into the back and forth, back into communications, and so on and so on. No, it's not easy to be in the situation you are in. Nothing changes if nothing changes. During my separation, my wife attempted suicide. I am not trivializing it, but even according to the doctors, it was a quasi, half-hearted attempt, albeit, an attempt. That said, after that there was a phase similar to what you are going through. I'd get calls from her friends that I needed to check on her, she will only talk to me, etc. I said no, and I immediately detached. I told them if they had those concerns they should call 911, her family, etc., or they should check on her. Then my wife turned up the heat, LOL. After I detached and cut off all communication -- blocked texts and email and calls -- I refused to open/read any texts from other people she knew and her family members. She was assured that these communications would not be read, would be deleted, etc. I also stopped answering calls from unknown numbers.
Understand something, while I am not twisting this around -- and I want to be clear here -- this is harassment. Thus, there is a victimization going on here. Manipulation, pressure, etc. You did the right thing calling the police, and the ambulance -- and look, they weren't impressed. They saw more than you did, they are professionals, and they weren't impressed?
Keep doing what you are supposed to be doing for you -- detach, physically and emotionally. Don't engage and participate in any of this. Don't have a role, don't participate. Focus on YOU. Talk to your sponsor as soon as he/she gets back. Spike up your meetings. Hang in there.
Bo
You are right -- and I said the same thing -- MY NORMAL WAS NOT NORMAL AT ALL...AND MY NORMAL WAS NOT HEALTHY!!! I didn't know. Because it was my normal!!! LOL. Funny now, LOL. Not then.
You are getting it. You are starting to see it, feel it, and most of all have awareness!!! You are getting it!!! Don't stop. Keep it up. You are doing great. Keep doing it.
This is a stressful situation for you, no question. Others have said wise things. I have some thoughts, apart from the very basic thought that in NO WAY are you responsible for his actions even if he were to commit suicide. Like, there are a dozen suicide hotlines, there are emergency rooms, there are counselors, there are AA meetings, there are literally hundreds of resources out there, and if you, an untrained amateur, don't talk to him, he has no choice in his despair but to commit suicide? There are literally hundreds of people better qualified than you to know how to help a suicidal person. Literally hundreds! It's like saying, "If you don't treat my broken bone I'm going to break it further because there are no doctors in this country!"
So it's clear that he's not saying "Help me." Because there are hundreds of people who could give better help, because that's what they do for a living. What he's saying is, "If you don't talk to me, I'm going to commit suicide to get back at you." Now, whether he means that, who knows. Maybe so, maybe not, maybe he thinks he does but he actually wouldn't. But the fact is that that is the reasoning of a person who has lost his grip on reality. And that needs a professional to treat it. You talking to him wouldn't treat the underlying problem. It would just delay his attempts at control until the next time he wanted to control you.
Every time he threatens something drastic unless you cooperate, and you do cooperate (out of kind feelings or fear for his safety), he is inadvertently rewarded for using those means to try to control you. So if you cave and agree to talk to him, you are actually rewarding him for that behavior, and reinforcing his tendency to do it. He will try even more fervently the next time, because he knows this is a method that works. It keeps him from trying other methods to ease his emotions, like professional help. It also makes him think of "suicide" as the go-to response to try to get what he wants. So paradoxically, trying to help him not commit suicide is actually reinforcing suicide in his mind.
I hope he has no tendencies towards violence. I worry that when he realizes you're moving away and won't be in his control any longer, he may try something physical or violent. Please keep yourself safe. I think you are in more danger than he is in. I'm glad you got the police involved. Take good care of yourself.
I think I'm safe, physically.
I'm GRATEFUL beyond words for you all and for this program.
Just had a mighty earthquake here in Hilo and right before it got a queer smelling atmosphere and some mighty sneezes. LOL trying not to blaming myself ...jest funning. Volcano's having trauma now and for the past couple of weeks. My HP might be cleaning the vents. House is still standing and gonna go check water and gas services.
Be safe!!...(((hugs)))
Aline - It was really, really hard for me to grasp that I was putting myself into the victim role. I was helped greatly by my sponsor who kept gently reminding me over and over and over again that I always have the choice to pause, walk away, leave for a bit, etc. to collect myself and find my truth.
Very easy things she gifted me include - "Let me think on that for a while." "I need time to process this." "I am not sure how I feel about that." "I need some time to pray." These are all neutral and get me out of saying something I might regret later or get me out of being reacting and owing an amends.
I had to be reminded that I met and married my AH for a reason and would pray for him and for God's will. I had to be reminded that whether I like them or not, these are my children....I am able and willing to go 'no contact' with them if necessary for my sanity and safety yet love them unconditionally. Still today, when I get wrapped up in future tripping, it brings fear of the unknown....I do so much better when I can stay focused on today, stand in my truth of today and trust God.
I learned in Al-Anon that when I am spiritually fit, I truly see all folks I encounter as equals - doing the best they can with what they have. We all have crosses to bear and I have been focused this year on 'Seek to Understand' rather than be understood. Just some food for thought - as always - do you and take what works for you!