I felt so strong in the last weeks and as I read my thoughts about communication in couples counselling I just found myself crumbling.
We ended last week on the fact that my and recovering husband don't communicate. It's quite clear that a lack of communication lies with my husband. I've always been a big believer of communication and everything, big or small, was spoken about in my family. We encouraged it. From my husbands' family nothing was ever spoken about.
I spoke about my thoughts about communication between us. He goes for days without even contacting me unless I send him a photo of the girls or something funny I've seen or something that we are doing, if I don't contact him, he won't contact me. He doesn't phone to have a conversation about every day life and laugh a little, nothing. The girls speak less and less about him. Very rarely do they tell me they miss him.
With the lack of communication this translates to me that he is not interested and doesn't care and why am I making every effort to find a friend to look after the girls so we can spend a few hours together on Saturday? This was the question I got back from the counsellor....why am I? Because I would like to see what there is left of this marriage before I throw it all away, which I am prepared to do. But I also don't think it's right that he thinks that as long as he puts a roof over our heads and we can buy food and do what we want from his salary that everything is great and that he's done his job, because he hasn't. If I have to I can very well put a roof over the girls heads and provide for them. I was never supposed to live here alone, this was my recovering husbands' decision not to come back after rehab.
My husband said that his day exists of work, AA, go to his mums and go for a run. WE ARE NOT A PRIORITY for him. So we don't fit into his day. He went on to say that without sobriety he is nothing. I said that if he keeps being so desperate about sobriety (I am not saying it's key to his recovery because it is) he will relapse. Sobriety is not recovery, recovery is progress. I got this from someone of a different AlAnon chat forum and the counsellor said that I had read this saying in a book which is not true. I've read a lot online, I've 'spoken' to many people online and have tried to gain knowledge this way as you know with our 3 small children I am struggling for face to face meetings, let alone a sponsor.
The counsellor asked what I get out of this and why am I still doing this? Because I know the man before/between the alcohol. The intense hurt on his face when 2 of our 4 rescue cats suddenly died, the utter look of love and protection on his face whenever we have another child, that he gets up all hours of the night to help out with the baby and changes every nappy possible, the man that broke down in my arms after another seizure saying he doesn't want to be like this anymore.
We came to the topic of how long he had been drinking, over 20 years, but that only the last 4 years it had gotten really secretive and really bad where his behaviour changes, seizures and brain damage happened as well as emotional abuse. I got angry at one point and said I felt lied to for the last 10 years of my life. Did he ever want to marry me? Did he ever wanted any of his children? My husbands answers were yes he did but also that he can't remember most of his life of the last 20 years. That hurts!! It completely threw me. I am at Sept 7 of the 12 Steps and I feel like I've tumbled down all the steps and have learnt nothing.
My recovering husband is clearly still angry he can't see his children. I want him to make it worthwhile. Stop buying presents, show some interest in them. In their lives, swimming, dance classes, anything. Go and do something with them. Create happy memories. The counsellor even questioned my wish for a 4th child, why was 3 not enough and could I even maintain it. I was slightly offended as in the Netherlands I have every help of my family I could ever need, more help, less cost and yes I could provide for all my children and yes they will be happy and well cared for. I'm sure people will disagree with me but I can't ignore my feeling.
My husband was very nice afterwards and wanted to go for coffee but as it was 8.15pm and I had 3 children still to pick up and put to bed it wasn't the best idea. I didn't manage to find someone to look after our girls for coming Saturday. My husband said he would ask his mum (my mum has offered to come over for a week to give me an my husband some time. I've been ill this week, form one day to the next I was nauseous, dizzy, saw colours which lasted 3 days) if she could give us some time on Sunday when we go and visit him and his mum for lunch. It'll be the first time in 4 weeks since he's seen his daughters. I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't want present or chocolate. I want them to make it worthwhile for the few hours that we're there. Get to know them, show an interest in them, I am uneasy to bring the girls to see him as they have settled down a lot since I put my boundary up and they haven't seen him. We are a little family of 4 and we are managing well. I don't want them to get hurt when we leave without daddy again. He always leaves. My timeline still stands to give all this a chance to get better still stands.
Thank you for reading my essay. I wouldn't have been able to sleep if I hadn't put it out for you to read.
DavidG said
Apr 26, 2018
Dutchy wrote:
I felt so strong in the last weeks and as I read my thoughts about communication in couples counselling I just found myself crumbling.
...
Thank you for reading my essay. I wouldn't have been able to sleep if I hadn't put it out for you to read.
I was fortunate with my marriage. My marriage got me to go to the USA and visit Stepping Stones, partly the birthplace of AA and Alanon...
your sharing resonated with me- in a variety of ways- touched my own experience... your way of finding sleep, and piece of mind- at least for this day...
I have bin to big city meetings in the USA- and understand the breath of Alanon experience- somewhat... coming, as i do, from a hick ton here in good ol' New Zealand.
At many meetings people come and go... travel round meetings etc, which is good.
You and I me here- mainly- at least for the moment- this is out home meeting. This is a base. I would not consider meeting you outside of a meeting. But inside- there is a bond- of trust and friendship.
I have garnered this from years of attending... in all sorts of ways...
...it is the opposite of watching our lives unravelling.
through our narratives, and our sharing, some sort of chaos is turned into meaning and unity of spirit...
...tremendous, powerful share, As.
...
Iamhere said
Apr 26, 2018
Dutchy - great share and tons of awareness. It is not uncommon to feel regression in recovery - especially when relationships are intertwined. What my sponsor kept telling me and reminding me is what I want, what I need, what the other wants/needs are probably not every going to be 'the same'. I was a huge control freak and had to really, really work on that in my recovery. I had to be able to let others love the way they can and be the way they are to find my own acceptance, joy and serenity....not easy but possible.
I can share that in AA, it is drilled into newcomers that sobriety MUST take PRIORITY. We actually preach that SLIP stands for Sobriety Lost/Looses It's Priority. While it may be very hard to hear, he's actually doing what he's supposed to be doing to stay sober. Wife, kids, house, job, etc. are all secondary to not taking the first drink, and just like Al-Anon, AA has many tools to pick up and use. We say often in Al-Anon that we need to focus on self and I used to keep a QTIP in my pocket to remind myself to Quit Taking It Personally.
I'm sorry that you're hurting. I hope you can keep finding ways to practice recovery and self-care. Sending you tons of positive energy, love and light. (((Hugs)))
el-cee said
Apr 27, 2018
You have a lot on your plate with three small children, perhaps you can ask him to take them sometime to give you a break? Especially if he is sober and committed to AA, take advantage of him being trustworthy. Lack of communication is hard to deal with, like being in limbo land in terms of your relationship. Im not sure if Ive interpreted your situation correctly but if he has taken some time out to concentrate on his recovery then maybe thats a good thing for the future of your family. Im not saying he shoudl get to bail out of his responsibilities but looking at the bigger picture, this is hope, is it not. Hope of a healthier Father and partner for your family. Meetings would be great and if hes taking the time for recovery then giving you time for recovery would benefit your whole family.
Its not nice to feel this way. I felt like it for 20yrs and it hurt for 20yrs. Then I got to alanon and I learned about the nature of the disease and how it effects him and then surprisingly how it effected me. So I blamed him for me not having the family I had judged was desirable. I blamed him for not being the partner I thought he should have been. I had unrealistic expectations and I had to learn the reality of the situation and it isn't easy to look at the truth but it frees us from the constant confusion, disappointment, anger etc.
I learned, he couldn't give me what he didn't have to give. It wasn't that he was being defiant, mean etc and withholding all this care and love and time and attention out of being a bad person. He wasn't a bad person but a sick person with a disease that made him unavailable to most of life including me and our family. He didn't give me what I wanted because he couldn't not because he wouldn't and there's a big difference.
Then in alanon the program told me to get honest with myself, what was it I was unhappy about? I found that I had a childish unrealistic idea of what life should be like for me and my family. I wanted disney and when I didn't get it I looked to see who to blame and there he was the perfect scapegoat, the alcoholic. I had to look within me and take my eyes off my partner and let go of my judgement of him, my constant mothering, obsessing, controlling, criticism of him and I had to look at me and finally I got freedom because I saw that we were both two sick people with thinking disorders doing the best with what we had and when we had no recovery we didn't do too well and then we got into programs and we have flourished even though apart and my whole family has a much gentler time of it with me today. Until we accept that this disease is not the responsibility of the drinker only and that we have a responsibility to get better two then its just going to be friction, two people coming at life from completely different realities.
-- Edited by el-cee on Friday 27th of April 2018 04:18:26 AM
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
Thank you Iamhere and El-cee for your input and a lot of what you're saying to me has been spoken about in my therapy this morning with my therapist.
I think a lot of people see 3 children as hard work. I found 8 babies in a nursery room with just me and another nursery nurse challenging so for me 3 kids is not that hard but off course this is not how I pictured it. I know I can ask my husband for a break and he will give it to me. I somehow feel uncomfortable as the girls are so happy to see him and so sad when he leaves and they will see him for the first time in 4 weeks coming Sunday. That said I have no choice but to ask for his help next Friday when I am going with our eldest on her school trip. I am sure he would've tried to help me out the 3 days I was to ill to get off the sofa but like my therapist said this morning, I was thinking for him because I didn't ask because I thought it would be too much of a hassle. He didn't want to stay here, he didn't want to do AA here and he needed to work (after counselling he said he would want to try to stay over a night a week) so I gave his answers for him instead of actually asking him as I think he would have done his best to try and help but I also don't want to compromise his recovery.
In a way it would have been so much easier if either of us or both of us had said that we are done with the marriage and let's move on but neither of us actually has said that. I am finding it easier that he isn't coming every week. It's hard enough seeing him at couples counselling and seeing him sad, unhappy and confused even before we go in. He doesn't know how to act and he doesn't know what to say. It's much easier to work on myself (now the boundary is still in place) without him coming at the weekend just to hang out for a few hours and leave again, not to be heard of for a week.
After I posted on here and I went to bed my recovering husband had texted me. Saying that he thought, after what was discussed last night, that he should text. He said that I should know that there is not a day that goes by that he doesn't think about us and that he doesn't know what he is missing because he does. He said he went for a walk, did some weights and was up for a bit if I wanted to have a chat. He is working Australian hours today so was up ridiculously early and I was wondering if I should phone but before I could he phoned me.
He said he wanted to be honest and he told me that most of the things we've done or he's done even before me, he can't remember. I bring up memories and laugh about them and he hasn't got any recollection of the event or he sees photos of us and he hasn't got a clue when, where or how they were made and it disturbs him a lot. What he does get is snippets of good and bad memories the longer he is sober. He wanted me to know that he has never physically cheated on me even though he has contacted other women, he never actually saw them, that he loves me a lot, thinks I am a wonderful woman and a fantastic mother but I could fill in the gap....he doesn't know if he wants to be with me. He reiterated that he definitely did want to marry me and want(s) to have children with me. We chatted a bit more and he asked for some photos of our youngest as she changed so much. So I sent him the photos.
My therapist this morning said that I get thrown every time I see him but she sees positives. He wants to come over and stay the night once a week and see how it goes. He is doing (like you say) what he should be doing. Sobriety is key (I completely agree) and that it's very hard for him to have been living in a blur for over 20 years, to wake up and find yourself married with 3 children whilst battling sobriety is very hard on him especially if he feels the guilt and has no memories of many things. And she seems to think he does want to be with me. He is actively coming and participating in couples counselling, he is working hard on his sobriety, he wants to take me out (he said he saw some restaurants near his mums place that he wants to take me to) and he is now, after we spoke about this last night in counselling, talking to his mum about her helping out a bit more so that we have more time together (I think he has learnt early on not to rely for too much on his parents whilst my parents were and are always there for me and my husband).
I can see where the therapist is going with this but I can also see where el-cee is coming from with 'two people coming at life from completely different realities . We do both need recovery and it's better to do this without each other and that's where I think the boundary comes in (even though he comes next Friday to look after the younger 2 so I can go on our eldest first ever school trip) even though my husband is very angry about that boundary but sometimes he seems to understand why it's there. I also think that's why I have to uphold my timeline of July. It's easier for me to plan my future and find what I want and how I feel without seeing my husband. Especially if he's not sure about anything and I feel ready to move on as I feel good in myself generally.
The only difficulty for us with me moving on on my own is that I will move back to the Netherlands and that is not something my husband wants. On the other hand he can't keep me here for his benefit.
I felt for my husband when the counsellor said he needed more individual therapy and I saw my husbands face go...he was angry...he doesn't want to do therapy and even though he said AA was for losers 2 years ago, he is now convinced that, together with his sponsor, it's the best thing for him and he doesn't need other therapy. I hope that he gets to work through his feelings a bit in couples counselling with me and I am proud of him for dealing properly with his feelings as he told me last night that he felt resentment and he is learning to put that aside because feelings of resentment never lead to anything good.
If you don't mind el-cee, I've copied this into my recovery notebook in which I also do my Step work: I learned, he couldn't give me what he didn't have to give. It wasn't that he was being defiant, mean etc and withholding all this care and love and time and attention out of being a bad person. He wasn't a bad person but a sick person with a disease that made him unavailable to most of life including me and our family. He didn't give me what I wanted because he couldn't not because he wouldn't and there's a big difference.
Bo said
Apr 27, 2018
When there is a lot going on, and many moving pieces, in my experience, several things can happen. For me, the triggers were -- trying to figure everything out, why, what does it mean, why is he/she doing that, why can't he/she, and so on. It happened to me a lot and I didn't even realize it. I read a lot of that in your posts, and that's just the way it lands with me. So, when that has happened to me -- I go back to the basics...the very basic! I focus on me. The more I tried to figure out anything that had to do with the other person, the more I drove myself crazy, sad, angry, curious, analytical, and so forth. I immediately turned all of the focus back on me, laser precision focus.
Another trigger is "I wish" or "I hope" or "I want" -- and again, for me, it's the basic...this is not about what I want. It's not about what I want for the marriage, for the kids, for him/her, etc. -- it's not about any of that. Sometimes that's just what you want, sometimes it's co-dependency, sometimes it's obsession, love, or many other things. At a certain point, all of them can be unhealthy for a person. My wife was obsesses with -- whatever she was obsessed with -- and I was obsessed with her, trying to figure it out, offering my analysis, opinion, trying to rationalize, justify, etc.
Experience is something you get...when you get something you didn't want. It is also something we get when we get what we did want. We just don't categorize it as such. There is a lot going on here that you don't like, that you don't want, that you don't deserve, that your kids don't deserve. However, unfortunately, it is going on. You can't change him. You got that. Try not to focus on him. Be grateful that you are getting healthy...and it sounds like you are...but don't make him as much of a factor here. It is about you. For you. Not what you want, but just about you and how you are being, how you want to live your life...independent of bringing him into that thought process. These were the things that helped me. All the best.
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
That is very helpful Bo and I was well on my way of excluding husband all together until the couples counsellor last week wanted us to make a list of what we want. And that makes you think. I know my husband hasn't and can't make his list and we didn't get to discuss my list during yesterdays sessions so my goal is to leave the list for what it is, at least until next weeks couples counselling and try to focus on me and getting through Sunday where I have to bring the girls to my recovering husband for the first time in 4 weeks. If I truly concentrate on just me, I will likely walk away and leave husband be knowing he will be hurt more by me than he has hurt me as I am taking the children to a different country towards their beloved grandparents, aunt, uncle and niece.
Iamhere said
Apr 27, 2018
Dutchy - I don't know if this helps or not but it's my experience....so take what you like ---- When I was active in the disease, I was a black-out drinker. I've been sober for 30 years and still to this day at family gatherings - someone will say, "Do you remember when..............................."
I don't remember. It has taken 30+ years for me to be able to accept that part of me, my disease and yet still I flinch. I flinch in shame, embarrassment and the reality that much of my life is forgotten. It does still make me sad and it haunts me. It's even harder to admit I don't remember - brings shame to me - still!
Yet, when I pause long enough to truly consider my life, I have much to be grateful for and proud of. I am sober today and that's what matters - today and the here and now. I've righted many wrongs and continue to align myself with a spiritual life as best I can. I own my humanism and my imperfections and roll along doing the best I can. I can so relate to your guy - it absolutely is frightening to admit what he's shared and yet, he's been willing to do so. For me, this speaks volumes about his respect for you, family, truth, etc.
Of course, that doesn't mean he/you or any of us is on easy street. All we truly have is this one day to work our recovery as best we can. (((Hugs))) - keep doing you and keep trusting the process. It's been a miracle for me!
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
Wow Iamhere- that's an insight. Thank you for sharing. (((Hugs))) It really means a lot to read experiences and learn from it. Off course I can't relate and might even be rubbing it in with my husband when I have a memory amd he doesn't. It must be hugely painful for him but I will never be able to relate or understand. I can only offer my support and trust in what he is doing and accept that, at this moment, this is the way things are and continue to build my life. I am just baffled that once I thought and was so scared that he would be the one walking away and now it might actually be different and that I have trouble accepting for now.
Iamhere said
Apr 27, 2018
Just do you as best you can.....nobody can ever, ever understand another person's journey - you're correct in what we can do is offer support and trust that another is working their journey as best they can. I do adjust when actions, program and sponsor suggest I do - but just for today....I'm grateful for the here and now!! (((Hugs)))
Bo said
Apr 27, 2018
You are welcome Dutchy. While you have dove in head first into alanon, remember, you are still relatively new to the program, the tools, the mindset, the methodology, etc. When a carpenter picks up a new tool, it takes time before they "master" the use of that tool, and become an expert at using it.
There's a difference between focusing on the alcoholic, and having compassion for them. There's a difference between focusing on yourself and abandoning the alcoholic. I detached from my wife, both physically and emotionally -- but I didn't abandon her. I was there for her -- but at a distance, a safe, and healthy distance, and I learned to be there for her in a healthy and supportive way...and that involved letting completely go of "I want" her to do this, say this, want this, and so on.
Don't get me wrong, and while I didn't out and out say it -- for me, it was important to have compassion for my wife. I was brought up with compassion as a core value, part of who I was. Having compassion for her HELPED ME. It's hard to explain, but it allowed me to be free from the anger and resentment, from the pain I was feeling, from focusing on her. Wish good things for him. My real point -- and I've been there -- is try to keep the focus on YOU, and let go of what "you want" him to do or what "you wish" he would do. Just because you focus on you doesn't mean you will leave. They are independent. Don't assume one is automatically coupled with the other. People tend to collapse "focus on me" with giving up on the marriage, or leaving, etc. Not true.
Work with your sponsor. Learn from others' experiences -- and from face to face meetings.
-- Edited by Bo on Friday 27th of April 2018 01:03:17 PM
Bo said
Apr 27, 2018
Dutchy, something else I thought of when I read your comments on the counselling topic -- one of the counsellors we worked with had us do the same thing. The goal was what it was, but the counsellor also said that I shouldn't "keep clutching onto" what I wanted my wife to do, say, want, etc. At the time, she wanted what she wanted. She would do what she would do. She was "in recovery" -- and that meant to her what it meant to her. And, at that time, I had to accept that. No matter how many times I expressed what I wanted, what I thought would be best, what I hoped for -- it ended up hurting me, frustrating me...and I was disappointed...why? Expectations? Lack of acceptance?
When I was going through this -- it was hard. Very hard. But, what made it easier, and this was just me -- was perspective. It was acceptance, surrender, letting go, and keeping the focus on me. When I got the acceptance -- everything else fell into place. It was like the first domino that fell, and then all the rest of them fell, immediately. I spent almost one year on step one and acceptance, and today, I have never been more glad that I did, because everything else today comes so easily.
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
Bo - thank you for your wise words.
Unfortunately due to the children and me already asking friends and church family to look after the children 4 times a week, it's impossible at the moment to go to face to face meetings. I would love to and have phoned around to see if there are meetings which allow me to bring the girls (there aren't) and even if I can bring them the times need to fit with school drop offs and pick ups, swimming lessons and dance classes and I'm already asking people to come and babysit a lot. I don't want to turn my friends against me. I would love to attend face to face meetings and have a sponsor I can talk to. At the moment I find it very difficult, between everything else, to find a meeting which I can actually make. I did bring it up in couples counselling that I feel I have the right to be able to attend AlAnon meetings but I got no reaction from the counsellor or my husband so I dropped the subject and will keep to my therapist and this forum for now. I do feel I miss actually talking to people face to face about this and mostly having a sponsor.
I think when it comes to acceptance, my husband is ahead of me. He has accepted his disease and what his priorities are. The thing he hasn't accepted is that he can't see his children. But that is something that, in my eyes, he will have to accept for now until he is in a better place. I think/thought I accepted the situation for what it is but when I see my husband and emotions come into play, things go haywire.
I came to the UK as a nanny for a Dutch/English family and stuck around when I met my husband which turned into marriage with children. Now with Brexit looming, Dutch people are not allowed dual nationality and my children having been born here in the UK but also holding a Dutch passport (they can until they are 18 then they have to choose for Dutch law) things besides my husbands recovery and my recovery are getting scary. If I leave the country for 2 months I lose my settles status and I won't be able to get a permanent leave to remain after England leaves the EU. I haven't been happy in the UK for 4 years and we were working towards moving back to the Netherlands as we both have more help and support and we'd have more time for ourselves and life is more relaxed. Clearly we didn't move but I do feel with the things being the way they are and my husband not being sure about wanting to be in the marriage I feel I do need to see where I am right now in a house on my own being a single mum with a husband relying on a lot of help from other people and I come to the decision that I feel better moving back home.
I pray he has compassion for me. I think he wants to be honest and I'm sure in his way he is. Me and the girls have a good thing going with the 4 of us, how is my husband ever going to come back in? I want to give him all the time he needs to build himself a life but in the meantime I have a life and am responsible for the lives of 3 small girls who need to grow into good human beings who are strong and enjoy life. They don't have issues with dependency, they move on, they don't speak a lot about their father, only when he was drinking, those are their memories, they enjoy life and it's my responsibility to give them everything I possibly can and if I stay in this situation, am I doing that? Is taking them to see their father for the first time in 4 weeks a good thing when he is still very fragile? 4 hours later we will leave again and he goes to AA and that's it again for a while.
I probably sound either very nasty, very naive and very much like a newbie. I have a tendency to throw myself into something completely and I have done with this as well. AlAnon, Step work, my therapy
Bo said
Apr 27, 2018
I didn't realize Dutchy. It's not easy early on to get to meetings when you have kids to care for, work, other responsibilities, etc. There's a woman who attends meetings here where I live -- and she attends a lot of meetings...and she has 8 kids!!! All under the age of 17!!! And, ready for this...they are all home-schooled!!! I have no idea how she does it. I'd love to hire her because she has to be the most efficient and effective human being on the planet!!! LOL.
That said -- a few items as food for thought -- look into the telepone meetings. They are call-in meetings, everyone calls into a central conference call number. They are official, conference approved, alanon meetings. Be aware however, there are plenty of support groups that model after alanon, claim alanon, etc., yet they are not conference approved, official alanon meetings. Also, not going to face to face meetings doesn't mean you can't have a sponsor. Ask one of the women here!!! However, from my experience, working with a sponsor is best either face to face or on the phone. Don't shortcut yourself or the process. And, in counselling, why state you feel you have the right...it is your recovery. Don't go on record, don't ask, don't inform...DO FOR YOU. You got no reaction so you dropped it. Don't bring it up...JUST GO!!!
When you talk about acceptance and say he's ahead of you---bring the focus back to you!!! Forget about him. YOU. I read your posts and keep reading about him. Look at him not as the main subject, but as the minor character. THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!! This could be a very valuable and important first step for you. It's amazing that you've thrown yourself into alanon...you do NOT sounds nasty or naive, and you are a newbie and that's OK. If you ever go to face to face meetings you will hear that the newcomer is the most important person in the room! Don't rush the work. Step one is step one for a reason. It sounds simple to breeze through, but it is not. Time takes time Dutchy. You are doing very well. Keep up the good work...on YOU.
DavidG said
Apr 27, 2018
Dutchy wrote:
I probably sound either very nasty, very naive and very much like a newbie. I have a tendency to throw myself into something completely and I have done with this as well. AlAnon, Step work, my therapy
As. -you sound self-assured... searching for answers... we would call a newbie "wet behind the ears" in my country.
Any group needs active members; and an online group much more so!
In my view you became a respected member right from the get-go.
We are all familiar with the illness. Even before you said so- I picked that you are a Christian- and that this may impact on how you make your decisions.
This is an invisible space- and silent- I moved alongside you and others joined me... because you are worth it!
It brings us all together... yes... ...
-D.
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
That woman is amazing! Ibwish my kids could look after each other. My eldest is 5, then 4 and then 21 months. They need supervision. I am going to phone the AlAnon helpline tomorrow and see what they can offer. I would rather have a face to face sponsor then someone on the phone. I am sure women on here could be a great sponsor for me!
I'd love to JUST GO! ....I need childcare though.
Thank you so much Bo, for everything! Be my sponsor! ;) I really appreciate everythijg you've out towards me today. I will go back to Step 1 and see what I've written and what's changed (the feelings things will just have to end so I can leave this country)
It is still easier for me not to see my husband in order to recover me. So that is what I will keep doing and I will try harder to go to meetings.
(((Hugs)))
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
Oh David G - you almost made me cry! Thank you for your reply!! For having faith and for your help, wisdom and guidance. (((Hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
Apr 27, 2018
Big Hugs Dutchy,
None of this is easy and then parenting small children really throws a twist into things.
Breathe .. one day at a time is all anyone really has, it took me a long time to move from what about us to what did I want .. and my XAH was not in a place to offer anything that could be close to that and he did not have recovery.
One of the truest statements that has already been stated .. sobriety and anything to get to sobriety is always top priority .. when a recovering addict relapses they go right back to where they were when they slipped there is no such thing as moderation. That's been my experience of listening to podcasts and going to open AA meetings as it's the closest thing I will get to understanding what it means to be an alcoholic .. I really don't get it because that's not where my sick thinking is .. my sick thinking is trying to make another person think like me .. I will never truly understand what it means to be an alcoholic.
The other part of my sick thinking was trying to recreate the past so my future could be different and that's not how that works. I had to let go of the past so it stopped crashing into my present and then I get to have a different future. That's the gift my sponsor left for me. I had to decide when I was ready to let that go and that was my time.
Hugs S :)
Dutchy said
Apr 27, 2018
Thank you Serenity, the past has to be the past and I've let that go. The futire can't be the same as the past for many reasons. It has to be a whole new future either as a family or not. It will never be the same but good memories should be cherised I think. It's said my husband doesn't have them anymore.
I can only speak from the anorexic disease. It's one you never really recover from. When I was done (my father cried when I ate a piece of birthday cake on his 60th birthday) I was done. Ibdid therapy, had a dietician and never looked back. It's a daily fight especially in trying times it becomes harder but I only mess up myself if I don't stay healthy and I have a life to live and beautiful wonderful brilliant (biased I know, call me a soppy mum) children to raise ( I was told I'd never have them as my period went for 3 years) so there is no soace for anorexia. I did horrible, disgusting things. I apologised, I moved on and life is good without that witch. I know not everyone recovers the same and not as quick as I did. I wasn't an anorexic for as long as my husband is an alcoholic. So it will be different. I guess that is why Ibdon't understand his recovery. Mine was very different.
Iamhere said
Apr 27, 2018
Dutchy - Al-Anon works because we are all equals. There are no experts or masters and whether you've been here one day or fifty years, it makes no difference. Our traditions suggest that we all are at the same level, as we work this program one day at a time. It's the same in AA - one day at a time is all that is focused on. We've actually joked before to see who woke up earliest suggested they had the most 'sober time'...
Each new member helps others working the program to remember what it was like, what's happened and what's happening now. Everyone is equally important for an effective and healthy group. So never feel as if you are green or too new - it's not true.
There is no mastery of any tools or concepts in recovery. There is ongoing practice and continued growth - always about progress and never about perfection. For most of us, wanting or trying to be perfect is a huge part of how the disease 'caught' us in the first place. So - just do you as best you can one day at a time.
As one who also had kids and was trying to balance program, sponsor, recovery work, meetings, life, etc. I can tell you that the online meetings here are awesome....if you get pulled away by a kid or a phone call, you can come back and scroll to catch up on the shares. There is no pressure to share - it's all volunteer and each meeting has topics usually preselected....sometimes topics are asked for at the start. Online meetings in chat rooms worked better for me than phone only because my phone is also a business tool for my company.
Lastly, there are tons of AA & Al-Anon speakers online. This was also helpful for me because me alone with my own thoughts often is not 'good company'. So - when I struggle with sleep or life in general, I'll do this still at times as it helps center me and ground me. There is no perfect way to recover - we each do the best we can to align with what's suggested one day at a time.
bud said
Apr 27, 2018
You've received great support from others, but I'll add mine in...
I can relate to what you're going through and was there many years ago. I didn't have Alanon and reacted on what I thought I was observing. He had told me he could not have a relationship with me, his wife, and I took him at his word... not understanding that part of his recovery was to just focus on himself.
All energy must be placed on a focus for survival, including self-care. I remember feeling like he reverted to even more child-like ways... at the time, it was positively scary and frustrating. Now I can see that he was doing his best to start over, and like me, he stumbled and made many mis-steps.
One of the hardest parts of the process is to keep the focus on myself. It takes courage, strength, my HP, and the support of Alanon and my MIP family.
Keep coming back!
Dutchy said
Apr 28, 2018
I love coming back. Every post I receive on thoughts is immensely helpful and I take it all. I just started my morning, 6am and 2 children up and the great thing is I get to come here and read and learn and take all this to my day to work on and through out the day when I need it I get to come here and ask for advice, read or possibly even help someone.
The 7th of May is a Bank Holiday and I want to attend an actual meeting that day. I found one other 8pm evening meeting and I will phone and see if the girls can come albeit a bit late for them on a school night. There is one other Saturday one in the middle of dance classes and maybe I can shift the time of dance classes and see if the girls can come to that one.
I noticed that all my posts come down to the same thing: me not accepting or understanding my husbands need to find himself, build himself,strengthen himself, trust himself. Which is something I really should do. He came out of a 20 year stupor with a wide and 3 kids, seizures and brain damage. I still feel my recovery is leading me away from him. I want to live in the now but also need to do what is best for the girls and that does require future planning.
I can't thank each and every one of you enough! The love, support and ESH just jumps out at me!
el-cee said
Apr 28, 2018
Your open mind is great dutchy. You have taken the suggestions and are willing and I believe that is completely crucial to recovery. As soon as we let go of the but.... and can identify we are well on our way. Have a great day in recovery today.x
Dutchy said
Apr 28, 2018
Thank you el-cee, I will do my best x
hotrod said
Apr 28, 2018
Hi Dutchy I found that letting go of my expectations of myself and others helped me to accept others and life on life's terms-- not mine . When i succeeded in accomplishing this , my program and connections with family and friends expanded tremendously.
Dutchy said
Apr 28, 2018
I have amazing friends (not many but enough, friends I know I can count on and they know they can count on me) and amazing family. One thing I never did was hide what was happening. I've been quite open about it. With friends, my family and church. I"ve been told numerous times I should leave my husband and why was I doing this, helping him, staying with him. Through the years I've seen the real him.
Today I've noticed I am grieving. I've been feeling physically quite bad for a few days now and I am not sure if it's a bug or this. I am grieving the loss of our relationship, our memories, our happiness, are bad times. I feel I am grieving the loss of a marriage but also the grief of not being as happy as I was when arrived in the UK 11 years ago and I would like to say at lest goodbye to London feeling the way Ibdid back then.
I feel it's ok and I think when I see my husband tomorrow and we have some time together I should tell him.
LexieA said
Apr 28, 2018
I do relate to your life and I could use the same words. I am married to an active A and he sort looks like he lives another life. I decided one day instead of wondering where he is, what he is doing, or why he is not attentive to his family I am going to worry about my life. I cant change him to care but I cant change how I view my life. I felt like I woke up and I am going to start my life with 3 kids as a single mom married to an A. Its the best decision. I dont need him to make decisions for the kids or myself. I think of it as I just live my life and worry my happiness. What he does with his life is no concern to me. In fact, he the A has concerns he will have to find me. What I have found with addictions they care only about themselves which is very narcissistic behavior. It is hard wired in their brains. I make sure that I stay busy with friends and the kids have a fun day. This is what I can do and what I can control. My life is so blessed with this attitude.
-- Edited by LexieA on Saturday 28th of April 2018 09:07:32 AM
Dutchy said
Apr 28, 2018
I know, I've been doing this for quite some time. Even when he was an active alcoholic I would plan and do things with the girls and just have a good time without him. He used to get so angry about that but that wasn't my problem. Now, in recovery, he is just sad, lost and I think he feels alone in some way even though he has a lot of AA friends
Dutchy said
Apr 28, 2018
That said I don't want to stay a married single mum. I'd rather be a single mum on my own.
Bo said
Apr 28, 2018
Dutchy, one day at a time. It's so much more than a catch-phrase or a cliche. Just keep the focus on you. Learn, and keep learning. Learn from the experience other people -- who have gone through what you are going through -- and keep in mind their experience, their strength, and hope. It's amazing that you are so present and so there for your daughters. That brings a smile to my face. I've heard so many times in the rooms -- children need a sane parent -- and we know it's not the alcoholic.
Alanon works, if you work it. And, it sounds like you certainly are. And, there's a learning curve -- and you'll get better at utilizing some of the tools, resources, etc. Recovery is a journey, not a destination. You don't go to sleep and wake up there. You have to go on the journey -- awake, LOL -- doing the work, focusing on you, making changes, and so on. For me, I remember each time I "detached" from my wife, and/or an unhealthy situation -- I felt better. Each time. In certain respects, it got easier, and I got better at it. It's like exercise -- I was getting in better and better shape. At first, detachment -- and for me I had to learn how to detach both physically and emotionally -- was very hard. Actually, it was impossible. But I worked on it, I tried, I faltered, I failed, but I got up, called my sponsor, learned from it, and kept trying. Eventually, it worked. And I kept building, forging ahead, working toward my recovery, getting healthy, getting better. Between the tools, the slogans, the readings, a new and healthy way of thinking, the methodologies behind all of the tools, slogans, etc., all of it was the wide array of resources and benefits I found in alanon.
It was similar with other tools -- enabling, detachment, setting boundaries (which to me was a bit more of an "advanced" tool). Remember, it works if you work it. Progress, not perfection. So, progress, and for me, I strived, a constant and never-ending effort, every single day, to improve, to make progress, to get better at whatever I was facing and working on. Today, all of those tools, those methodologies, those changes I made, all of them...are innate. They are the way I live my life. Step 12 says practice these principles in all our affairs, and I innately do. You will find yourself getting better, one day at a time. The tools will become easier and easier to use, to do, new ways of thinking will become normal ways, healthy ways of thinking. The "coping skills" I still find in the rooms -- after almost a quarter of a century -- I still find them so refreshing and so powerful.
Try those phone-in alanon meetings. I remember travelling, and there were no alanon meetings within 60 miles of where I was -- and I went to the alanon world services website, got information on the phone-in meetings, and I phoned in! They were good. You will find your way -- and it will work for you, if you work it. Find one of the wonderful women here and even if you ask them to be your temporary sponsor, you are making progress. All the best.
DavidG said
Apr 28, 2018
Hi As. and y'all...
I am sitting here superintending three grandkids- who are having a late breakfast... my SO is still in bed having hot cup of tea.
I have a lot to be thankful for these days... though change took a long long time... the kids of my brothers and sister seem to struggle a fair bit more than mine.
So I can see the benefits of Alanon- in the long term...
...I have been through most things the world can chuck at me... or so it seems to me!
I read most of the literature- Lois Remembers- and most of Bill's writings. In my dreams I pictured them as my mum and dad. [They have long ago passed- as y'all know- but they still matter, in my view.
In 2011 I visited their home in upstate New York. This was a big turning point for me. I wept buckets- tears of gratitude.
But most of all- it was a coming of age. I was able to separate from those surrogate parents.
I see them as real people now- but what is more important I see all the other members, now, sisters and brothers in recovery.
For me I find the journey now, pleasurable and relaxed. Down-to-earth and practical.
Today I seem to live in the present- most of the time- instead of a painful horrible space.
So, As., if you are reading this, you can see how you fit in, at least, with me.
We are all able to "pass it forward" when we are able. It starts the moment we arrive...
just showing up- is a gift!
Thanks... ...
Bo said
Apr 28, 2018
Excellent post/points David. Yes, they certainly do matter today -- a great deal. Did you visit their home -- Stepping Stones -- in Bedford Hills, NY? It's a wonderful visit.
Thanks again for the post David. So much of what you said resonates with me -- the journey, being pleasurable and relaxed, down to earth, and yes, practical. I very much enjoy the living in the present. Being present -- in the present -- is wonderful, and very healthy for me.
At this morning's meeting, there were numerous newcomers -- several first-timers, and a woman who attended the meeting last week for the first time. It was inspirational to hear her talk about why she came back, what she felt this week after attending last week's meeting, and how she feels better. She actually said "the situation hasn't changed, but I feel better, knowing I am learning some coping skills, and that I am gaining some awareness" -- it was amazing.
Thanks again.
Dutchy said
Apr 29, 2018
David you are inspirational!
I enjoy working the Steps, I enjoy figuring myself out and where I am going wrong with myself. Part of my childcare degree was psychology (not only for children but also adults) and I think I'd like to go back to that.
I spent a few hours last night on the phone with a volunteer from AlAnon. She was pretty sure there aren't any meetings which allow children but she gave me some numbers anyway. We got talking and she said I should be more assertive. Get my husband in at nights to 'babysit' so I can go to AlAnon. He can go to AA meetings whenever he wants, he is pretty free in his time and what he wants to do with it so he can mould his day around AlAnon twice a week. She also thought he was being horrible. Not wanting to come back but he isn't even dry behind the ears. her first year with her husband was horrible but they made it. Unlike my husband, who still doesn't know whether he wants to be with me (it's getting old), they knew they wanted to work the marriage and aided each other in recovery. This is something which is not happening in my marriage even though it would be nice if we could do our recoveries together and learn from each other and support each other. My husband is still very much on the work, AA, run, sleep routine. We spoke a bout many other things which make me realise I don't even want to be here right now.
I find myself more and more preparing to go back home where I know the girls are happy, the schools are better and we have family who love and support us. The only thing nagging is that my husband won't be happy as he won't see his children (who he doesn't really know) but that is not my problem in the end. In the end my problem is me and my happiness.
I am not happy that I am going to his mums place and have lunch there and the girls get to see him. In a way he is not deserving of it and the girls don't really seem to care. But I'll do it, it'll keep the peace for now.
I felt so strong in the last weeks and as I read my thoughts about communication in couples counselling I just found myself crumbling.
We ended last week on the fact that my and recovering husband don't communicate. It's quite clear that a lack of communication lies with my husband. I've always been a big believer of communication and everything, big or small, was spoken about in my family. We encouraged it. From my husbands' family nothing was ever spoken about.
I spoke about my thoughts about communication between us. He goes for days without even contacting me unless I send him a photo of the girls or something funny I've seen or something that we are doing, if I don't contact him, he won't contact me. He doesn't phone to have a conversation about every day life and laugh a little, nothing. The girls speak less and less about him. Very rarely do they tell me they miss him.
With the lack of communication this translates to me that he is not interested and doesn't care and why am I making every effort to find a friend to look after the girls so we can spend a few hours together on Saturday? This was the question I got back from the counsellor....why am I? Because I would like to see what there is left of this marriage before I throw it all away, which I am prepared to do. But I also don't think it's right that he thinks that as long as he puts a roof over our heads and we can buy food and do what we want from his salary that everything is great and that he's done his job, because he hasn't. If I have to I can very well put a roof over the girls heads and provide for them. I was never supposed to live here alone, this was my recovering husbands' decision not to come back after rehab.
My husband said that his day exists of work, AA, go to his mums and go for a run. WE ARE NOT A PRIORITY for him. So we don't fit into his day. He went on to say that without sobriety he is nothing. I said that if he keeps being so desperate about sobriety (I am not saying it's key to his recovery because it is) he will relapse. Sobriety is not recovery, recovery is progress. I got this from someone of a different AlAnon chat forum and the counsellor said that I had read this saying in a book which is not true. I've read a lot online, I've 'spoken' to many people online and have tried to gain knowledge this way as you know with our 3 small children I am struggling for face to face meetings, let alone a sponsor.
The counsellor asked what I get out of this and why am I still doing this? Because I know the man before/between the alcohol. The intense hurt on his face when 2 of our 4 rescue cats suddenly died, the utter look of love and protection on his face whenever we have another child, that he gets up all hours of the night to help out with the baby and changes every nappy possible, the man that broke down in my arms after another seizure saying he doesn't want to be like this anymore.
We came to the topic of how long he had been drinking, over 20 years, but that only the last 4 years it had gotten really secretive and really bad where his behaviour changes, seizures and brain damage happened as well as emotional abuse. I got angry at one point and said I felt lied to for the last 10 years of my life. Did he ever want to marry me? Did he ever wanted any of his children? My husbands answers were yes he did but also that he can't remember most of his life of the last 20 years. That hurts!! It completely threw me. I am at Sept 7 of the 12 Steps and I feel like I've tumbled down all the steps and have learnt nothing.
My recovering husband is clearly still angry he can't see his children. I want him to make it worthwhile. Stop buying presents, show some interest in them. In their lives, swimming, dance classes, anything. Go and do something with them. Create happy memories. The counsellor even questioned my wish for a 4th child, why was 3 not enough and could I even maintain it. I was slightly offended as in the Netherlands I have every help of my family I could ever need, more help, less cost and yes I could provide for all my children and yes they will be happy and well cared for. I'm sure people will disagree with me but I can't ignore my feeling.
My husband was very nice afterwards and wanted to go for coffee but as it was 8.15pm and I had 3 children still to pick up and put to bed it wasn't the best idea. I didn't manage to find someone to look after our girls for coming Saturday. My husband said he would ask his mum (my mum has offered to come over for a week to give me an my husband some time. I've been ill this week, form one day to the next I was nauseous, dizzy, saw colours which lasted 3 days) if she could give us some time on Sunday when we go and visit him and his mum for lunch. It'll be the first time in 4 weeks since he's seen his daughters. I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't want present or chocolate. I want them to make it worthwhile for the few hours that we're there. Get to know them, show an interest in them, I am uneasy to bring the girls to see him as they have settled down a lot since I put my boundary up and they haven't seen him. We are a little family of 4 and we are managing well. I don't want them to get hurt when we leave without daddy again. He always leaves. My timeline still stands to give all this a chance to get better still stands.
Thank you for reading my essay. I wouldn't have been able to sleep if I hadn't put it out for you to read.
I was fortunate with my marriage. My marriage got me to go to the USA and visit Stepping Stones, partly the birthplace of AA and Alanon...
your sharing resonated with me- in a variety of ways- touched my own experience... your way of finding sleep, and piece of mind- at least for this day...
I have bin to big city meetings in the USA- and understand the breath of Alanon experience- somewhat... coming, as i do, from a hick ton here in good ol' New Zealand.
At many meetings people come and go... travel round meetings etc, which is good.
You and I me here- mainly- at least for the moment- this is out home meeting. This is a base. I would not consider meeting you outside of a meeting. But inside- there is a bond- of trust and friendship.
I have garnered this from years of attending... in all sorts of ways...
...it is the opposite of watching our lives unravelling.
through our narratives, and our sharing, some sort of chaos is turned into meaning and unity of spirit...
...tremendous, powerful share, As.
I can share that in AA, it is drilled into newcomers that sobriety MUST take PRIORITY. We actually preach that SLIP stands for Sobriety Lost/Looses It's Priority. While it may be very hard to hear, he's actually doing what he's supposed to be doing to stay sober. Wife, kids, house, job, etc. are all secondary to not taking the first drink, and just like Al-Anon, AA has many tools to pick up and use. We say often in Al-Anon that we need to focus on self and I used to keep a QTIP in my pocket to remind myself to Quit Taking It Personally.
I'm sorry that you're hurting. I hope you can keep finding ways to practice recovery and self-care. Sending you tons of positive energy, love and light. (((Hugs)))
You have a lot on your plate with three small children, perhaps you can ask him to take them sometime to give you a break? Especially if he is sober and committed to AA, take advantage of him being trustworthy. Lack of communication is hard to deal with, like being in limbo land in terms of your relationship. Im not sure if Ive interpreted your situation correctly but if he has taken some time out to concentrate on his recovery then maybe thats a good thing for the future of your family. Im not saying he shoudl get to bail out of his responsibilities but looking at the bigger picture, this is hope, is it not. Hope of a healthier Father and partner for your family. Meetings would be great and if hes taking the time for recovery then giving you time for recovery would benefit your whole family.
Its not nice to feel this way. I felt like it for 20yrs and it hurt for 20yrs. Then I got to alanon and I learned about the nature of the disease and how it effects him and then surprisingly how it effected me. So I blamed him for me not having the family I had judged was desirable. I blamed him for not being the partner I thought he should have been. I had unrealistic expectations and I had to learn the reality of the situation and it isn't easy to look at the truth but it frees us from the constant confusion, disappointment, anger etc.
I learned, he couldn't give me what he didn't have to give. It wasn't that he was being defiant, mean etc and withholding all this care and love and time and attention out of being a bad person. He wasn't a bad person but a sick person with a disease that made him unavailable to most of life including me and our family. He didn't give me what I wanted because he couldn't not because he wouldn't and there's a big difference.
Then in alanon the program told me to get honest with myself, what was it I was unhappy about? I found that I had a childish unrealistic idea of what life should be like for me and my family. I wanted disney and when I didn't get it I looked to see who to blame and there he was the perfect scapegoat, the alcoholic. I had to look within me and take my eyes off my partner and let go of my judgement of him, my constant mothering, obsessing, controlling, criticism of him and I had to look at me and finally I got freedom because I saw that we were both two sick people with thinking disorders doing the best with what we had and when we had no recovery we didn't do too well and then we got into programs and we have flourished even though apart and my whole family has a much gentler time of it with me today. Until we accept that this disease is not the responsibility of the drinker only and that we have a responsibility to get better two then its just going to be friction, two people coming at life from completely different realities.
-- Edited by el-cee on Friday 27th of April 2018 04:18:26 AM
Thank you Iamhere and El-cee for your input and a lot of what you're saying to me has been spoken about in my therapy this morning with my therapist.
I think a lot of people see 3 children as hard work. I found 8 babies in a nursery room with just me and another nursery nurse challenging so for me 3 kids is not that hard but off course this is not how I pictured it. I know I can ask my husband for a break and he will give it to me. I somehow feel uncomfortable as the girls are so happy to see him and so sad when he leaves and they will see him for the first time in 4 weeks coming Sunday. That said I have no choice but to ask for his help next Friday when I am going with our eldest on her school trip. I am sure he would've tried to help me out the 3 days I was to ill to get off the sofa but like my therapist said this morning, I was thinking for him because I didn't ask because I thought it would be too much of a hassle. He didn't want to stay here, he didn't want to do AA here and he needed to work (after counselling he said he would want to try to stay over a night a week) so I gave his answers for him instead of actually asking him as I think he would have done his best to try and help but I also don't want to compromise his recovery.
In a way it would have been so much easier if either of us or both of us had said that we are done with the marriage and let's move on but neither of us actually has said that. I am finding it easier that he isn't coming every week. It's hard enough seeing him at couples counselling and seeing him sad, unhappy and confused even before we go in. He doesn't know how to act and he doesn't know what to say. It's much easier to work on myself (now the boundary is still in place) without him coming at the weekend just to hang out for a few hours and leave again, not to be heard of for a week.
After I posted on here and I went to bed my recovering husband had texted me. Saying that he thought, after what was discussed last night, that he should text. He said that I should know that there is not a day that goes by that he doesn't think about us and that he doesn't know what he is missing because he does. He said he went for a walk, did some weights and was up for a bit if I wanted to have a chat. He is working Australian hours today so was up ridiculously early and I was wondering if I should phone but before I could he phoned me.
He said he wanted to be honest and he told me that most of the things we've done or he's done even before me, he can't remember. I bring up memories and laugh about them and he hasn't got any recollection of the event or he sees photos of us and he hasn't got a clue when, where or how they were made and it disturbs him a lot. What he does get is snippets of good and bad memories the longer he is sober. He wanted me to know that he has never physically cheated on me even though he has contacted other women, he never actually saw them, that he loves me a lot, thinks I am a wonderful woman and a fantastic mother but I could fill in the gap....he doesn't know if he wants to be with me. He reiterated that he definitely did want to marry me and want(s) to have children with me. We chatted a bit more and he asked for some photos of our youngest as she changed so much. So I sent him the photos.
My therapist this morning said that I get thrown every time I see him but she sees positives. He wants to come over and stay the night once a week and see how it goes. He is doing (like you say) what he should be doing. Sobriety is key (I completely agree) and that it's very hard for him to have been living in a blur for over 20 years, to wake up and find yourself married with 3 children whilst battling sobriety is very hard on him especially if he feels the guilt and has no memories of many things. And she seems to think he does want to be with me. He is actively coming and participating in couples counselling, he is working hard on his sobriety, he wants to take me out (he said he saw some restaurants near his mums place that he wants to take me to) and he is now, after we spoke about this last night in counselling, talking to his mum about her helping out a bit more so that we have more time together (I think he has learnt early on not to rely for too much on his parents whilst my parents were and are always there for me and my husband).
I can see where the therapist is going with this but I can also see where el-cee is coming from with 'two people coming at life from completely different realities . We do both need recovery and it's better to do this without each other and that's where I think the boundary comes in (even though he comes next Friday to look after the younger 2 so I can go on our eldest first ever school trip) even though my husband is very angry about that boundary but sometimes he seems to understand why it's there. I also think that's why I have to uphold my timeline of July. It's easier for me to plan my future and find what I want and how I feel without seeing my husband. Especially if he's not sure about anything and I feel ready to move on as I feel good in myself generally.
The only difficulty for us with me moving on on my own is that I will move back to the Netherlands and that is not something my husband wants. On the other hand he can't keep me here for his benefit.
I felt for my husband when the counsellor said he needed more individual therapy and I saw my husbands face go...he was angry...he doesn't want to do therapy and even though he said AA was for losers 2 years ago, he is now convinced that, together with his sponsor, it's the best thing for him and he doesn't need other therapy. I hope that he gets to work through his feelings a bit in couples counselling with me and I am proud of him for dealing properly with his feelings as he told me last night that he felt resentment and he is learning to put that aside because feelings of resentment never lead to anything good.
If you don't mind el-cee, I've copied this into my recovery notebook in which I also do my Step work: I learned, he couldn't give me what he didn't have to give. It wasn't that he was being defiant, mean etc and withholding all this care and love and time and attention out of being a bad person. He wasn't a bad person but a sick person with a disease that made him unavailable to most of life including me and our family. He didn't give me what I wanted because he couldn't not because he wouldn't and there's a big difference.
Another trigger is "I wish" or "I hope" or "I want" -- and again, for me, it's the basic...this is not about what I want. It's not about what I want for the marriage, for the kids, for him/her, etc. -- it's not about any of that. Sometimes that's just what you want, sometimes it's co-dependency, sometimes it's obsession, love, or many other things. At a certain point, all of them can be unhealthy for a person. My wife was obsesses with -- whatever she was obsessed with -- and I was obsessed with her, trying to figure it out, offering my analysis, opinion, trying to rationalize, justify, etc.
Experience is something you get...when you get something you didn't want. It is also something we get when we get what we did want. We just don't categorize it as such. There is a lot going on here that you don't like, that you don't want, that you don't deserve, that your kids don't deserve. However, unfortunately, it is going on. You can't change him. You got that. Try not to focus on him. Be grateful that you are getting healthy...and it sounds like you are...but don't make him as much of a factor here. It is about you. For you. Not what you want, but just about you and how you are being, how you want to live your life...independent of bringing him into that thought process. These were the things that helped me. All the best.
I don't remember. It has taken 30+ years for me to be able to accept that part of me, my disease and yet still I flinch. I flinch in shame, embarrassment and the reality that much of my life is forgotten. It does still make me sad and it haunts me. It's even harder to admit I don't remember - brings shame to me - still!
Yet, when I pause long enough to truly consider my life, I have much to be grateful for and proud of. I am sober today and that's what matters - today and the here and now. I've righted many wrongs and continue to align myself with a spiritual life as best I can. I own my humanism and my imperfections and roll along doing the best I can. I can so relate to your guy - it absolutely is frightening to admit what he's shared and yet, he's been willing to do so. For me, this speaks volumes about his respect for you, family, truth, etc.
Of course, that doesn't mean he/you or any of us is on easy street. All we truly have is this one day to work our recovery as best we can. (((Hugs))) - keep doing you and keep trusting the process. It's been a miracle for me!
You are welcome Dutchy. While you have dove in head first into alanon, remember, you are still relatively new to the program, the tools, the mindset, the methodology, etc. When a carpenter picks up a new tool, it takes time before they "master" the use of that tool, and become an expert at using it.
There's a difference between focusing on the alcoholic, and having compassion for them. There's a difference between focusing on yourself and abandoning the alcoholic. I detached from my wife, both physically and emotionally -- but I didn't abandon her. I was there for her -- but at a distance, a safe, and healthy distance, and I learned to be there for her in a healthy and supportive way...and that involved letting completely go of "I want" her to do this, say this, want this, and so on.
Don't get me wrong, and while I didn't out and out say it -- for me, it was important to have compassion for my wife. I was brought up with compassion as a core value, part of who I was. Having compassion for her HELPED ME. It's hard to explain, but it allowed me to be free from the anger and resentment, from the pain I was feeling, from focusing on her. Wish good things for him. My real point -- and I've been there -- is try to keep the focus on YOU, and let go of what "you want" him to do or what "you wish" he would do. Just because you focus on you doesn't mean you will leave. They are independent. Don't assume one is automatically coupled with the other. People tend to collapse "focus on me" with giving up on the marriage, or leaving, etc. Not true.
Work with your sponsor. Learn from others' experiences -- and from face to face meetings.
-- Edited by Bo on Friday 27th of April 2018 01:03:17 PM
When I was going through this -- it was hard. Very hard. But, what made it easier, and this was just me -- was perspective. It was acceptance, surrender, letting go, and keeping the focus on me. When I got the acceptance -- everything else fell into place. It was like the first domino that fell, and then all the rest of them fell, immediately. I spent almost one year on step one and acceptance, and today, I have never been more glad that I did, because everything else today comes so easily.
Bo - thank you for your wise words.
Unfortunately due to the children and me already asking friends and church family to look after the children 4 times a week, it's impossible at the moment to go to face to face meetings. I would love to and have phoned around to see if there are meetings which allow me to bring the girls (there aren't) and even if I can bring them the times need to fit with school drop offs and pick ups, swimming lessons and dance classes and I'm already asking people to come and babysit a lot. I don't want to turn my friends against me. I would love to attend face to face meetings and have a sponsor I can talk to. At the moment I find it very difficult, between everything else, to find a meeting which I can actually make. I did bring it up in couples counselling that I feel I have the right to be able to attend AlAnon meetings but I got no reaction from the counsellor or my husband so I dropped the subject and will keep to my therapist and this forum for now. I do feel I miss actually talking to people face to face about this and mostly having a sponsor.
I think when it comes to acceptance, my husband is ahead of me. He has accepted his disease and what his priorities are. The thing he hasn't accepted is that he can't see his children. But that is something that, in my eyes, he will have to accept for now until he is in a better place. I think/thought I accepted the situation for what it is but when I see my husband and emotions come into play, things go haywire.
I came to the UK as a nanny for a Dutch/English family and stuck around when I met my husband which turned into marriage with children. Now with Brexit looming, Dutch people are not allowed dual nationality and my children having been born here in the UK but also holding a Dutch passport (they can until they are 18 then they have to choose for Dutch law) things besides my husbands recovery and my recovery are getting scary. If I leave the country for 2 months I lose my settles status and I won't be able to get a permanent leave to remain after England leaves the EU. I haven't been happy in the UK for 4 years and we were working towards moving back to the Netherlands as we both have more help and support and we'd have more time for ourselves and life is more relaxed. Clearly we didn't move but I do feel with the things being the way they are and my husband not being sure about wanting to be in the marriage I feel I do need to see where I am right now in a house on my own being a single mum with a husband relying on a lot of help from other people and I come to the decision that I feel better moving back home.
I pray he has compassion for me. I think he wants to be honest and I'm sure in his way he is. Me and the girls have a good thing going with the 4 of us, how is my husband ever going to come back in? I want to give him all the time he needs to build himself a life but in the meantime I have a life and am responsible for the lives of 3 small girls who need to grow into good human beings who are strong and enjoy life. They don't have issues with dependency, they move on, they don't speak a lot about their father, only when he was drinking, those are their memories, they enjoy life and it's my responsibility to give them everything I possibly can and if I stay in this situation, am I doing that? Is taking them to see their father for the first time in 4 weeks a good thing when he is still very fragile? 4 hours later we will leave again and he goes to AA and that's it again for a while.
I probably sound either very nasty, very naive and very much like a newbie. I have a tendency to throw myself into something completely and I have done with this as well. AlAnon, Step work, my therapy
That said -- a few items as food for thought -- look into the telepone meetings. They are call-in meetings, everyone calls into a central conference call number. They are official, conference approved, alanon meetings. Be aware however, there are plenty of support groups that model after alanon, claim alanon, etc., yet they are not conference approved, official alanon meetings. Also, not going to face to face meetings doesn't mean you can't have a sponsor. Ask one of the women here!!! However, from my experience, working with a sponsor is best either face to face or on the phone. Don't shortcut yourself or the process. And, in counselling, why state you feel you have the right...it is your recovery. Don't go on record, don't ask, don't inform...DO FOR YOU. You got no reaction so you dropped it. Don't bring it up...JUST GO!!!
When you talk about acceptance and say he's ahead of you---bring the focus back to you!!! Forget about him. YOU. I read your posts and keep reading about him. Look at him not as the main subject, but as the minor character. THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!! This could be a very valuable and important first step for you. It's amazing that you've thrown yourself into alanon...you do NOT sounds nasty or naive, and you are a newbie and that's OK. If you ever go to face to face meetings you will hear that the newcomer is the most important person in the room! Don't rush the work. Step one is step one for a reason. It sounds simple to breeze through, but it is not. Time takes time Dutchy. You are doing very well. Keep up the good work...on YOU.
As. -you sound self-assured... searching for answers... we would call a newbie "wet behind the ears" in my country.
Any group needs active members; and an online group much more so!
In my view you became a respected member right from the get-go.
We are all familiar with the illness. Even before you said so- I picked that you are a Christian- and that this may impact on how you make your decisions.
This is an invisible space- and silent- I moved alongside you and others joined me... because you are worth it!
It brings us all together... yes...
...
-D.
None of this is easy and then parenting small children really throws a twist into things.
Breathe .. one day at a time is all anyone really has, it took me a long time to move from what about us to what did I want .. and my XAH was not in a place to offer anything that could be close to that and he did not have recovery.
One of the truest statements that has already been stated .. sobriety and anything to get to sobriety is always top priority .. when a recovering addict relapses they go right back to where they were when they slipped there is no such thing as moderation. That's been my experience of listening to podcasts and going to open AA meetings as it's the closest thing I will get to understanding what it means to be an alcoholic .. I really don't get it because that's not where my sick thinking is .. my sick thinking is trying to make another person think like me .. I will never truly understand what it means to be an alcoholic.
The other part of my sick thinking was trying to recreate the past so my future could be different and that's not how that works. I had to let go of the past so it stopped crashing into my present and then I get to have a different future. That's the gift my sponsor left for me. I had to decide when I was ready to let that go and that was my time.
Hugs S :)
Each new member helps others working the program to remember what it was like, what's happened and what's happening now. Everyone is equally important for an effective and healthy group. So never feel as if you are green or too new - it's not true.
There is no mastery of any tools or concepts in recovery. There is ongoing practice and continued growth - always about progress and never about perfection. For most of us, wanting or trying to be perfect is a huge part of how the disease 'caught' us in the first place. So - just do you as best you can one day at a time.
As one who also had kids and was trying to balance program, sponsor, recovery work, meetings, life, etc. I can tell you that the online meetings here are awesome....if you get pulled away by a kid or a phone call, you can come back and scroll to catch up on the shares. There is no pressure to share - it's all volunteer and each meeting has topics usually preselected....sometimes topics are asked for at the start. Online meetings in chat rooms worked better for me than phone only because my phone is also a business tool for my company.
Lastly, there are tons of AA & Al-Anon speakers online. This was also helpful for me because me alone with my own thoughts often is not 'good company'. So - when I struggle with sleep or life in general, I'll do this still at times as it helps center me and ground me. There is no perfect way to recover - we each do the best we can to align with what's suggested one day at a time.
I can relate to what you're going through and was there many years ago. I didn't have Alanon and reacted on what I thought I was observing. He had told me he could not have a relationship with me, his wife, and I took him at his word... not understanding that part of his recovery was to just focus on himself.
All energy must be placed on a focus for survival, including self-care. I remember feeling like he reverted to even more child-like ways... at the time, it was positively scary and frustrating. Now I can see that he was doing his best to start over, and like me, he stumbled and made many mis-steps.
One of the hardest parts of the process is to keep the focus on myself. It takes courage, strength, my HP, and the support of Alanon and my MIP family.
Keep coming back!
The 7th of May is a Bank Holiday and I want to attend an actual meeting that day. I found one other 8pm evening meeting and I will phone and see if the girls can come albeit a bit late for them on a school night. There is one other Saturday one in the middle of dance classes and maybe I can shift the time of dance classes and see if the girls can come to that one.
I noticed that all my posts come down to the same thing: me not accepting or understanding my husbands need to find himself, build himself,strengthen himself, trust himself. Which is something I really should do. He came out of a 20 year stupor with a wide and 3 kids, seizures and brain damage. I still feel my recovery is leading me away from him. I want to live in the now but also need to do what is best for the girls and that does require future planning.
I can't thank each and every one of you enough! The love, support and ESH just jumps out at me!
Hi Dutchy I found that letting go of my expectations of myself and others helped me to accept others and life on life's terms-- not mine . When i succeeded in accomplishing this , my program and connections with family and friends expanded tremendously.
I do relate to your life and I could use the same words. I am married to an active A and he sort looks like he lives another life.
I decided one day instead of wondering where he is, what he is doing, or why he is not attentive to his family I am going to worry about my life. I cant change him to care but I cant change how I view my life. I felt like I woke up and I am going to start my life with 3 kids as a single mom married to an A. Its the best decision. I dont need him to make decisions for the kids or myself. I think of it as I just live my life and worry my happiness. What he does with his life is no concern to me. In fact, he the A has concerns he will have to find me.
What I have found with addictions they care only about themselves which is very narcissistic behavior. It is hard wired in their brains.
I make sure that I stay busy with friends and the kids have a fun day. This is what I can do and what I can control. My life is so blessed with this attitude.
-- Edited by LexieA on Saturday 28th of April 2018 09:07:32 AM
Alanon works, if you work it. And, it sounds like you certainly are. And, there's a learning curve -- and you'll get better at utilizing some of the tools, resources, etc. Recovery is a journey, not a destination. You don't go to sleep and wake up there. You have to go on the journey -- awake, LOL -- doing the work, focusing on you, making changes, and so on. For me, I remember each time I "detached" from my wife, and/or an unhealthy situation -- I felt better. Each time. In certain respects, it got easier, and I got better at it. It's like exercise -- I was getting in better and better shape. At first, detachment -- and for me I had to learn how to detach both physically and emotionally -- was very hard. Actually, it was impossible. But I worked on it, I tried, I faltered, I failed, but I got up, called my sponsor, learned from it, and kept trying. Eventually, it worked. And I kept building, forging ahead, working toward my recovery, getting healthy, getting better. Between the tools, the slogans, the readings, a new and healthy way of thinking, the methodologies behind all of the tools, slogans, etc., all of it was the wide array of resources and benefits I found in alanon.
It was similar with other tools -- enabling, detachment, setting boundaries (which to me was a bit more of an "advanced" tool). Remember, it works if you work it. Progress, not perfection. So, progress, and for me, I strived, a constant and never-ending effort, every single day, to improve, to make progress, to get better at whatever I was facing and working on. Today, all of those tools, those methodologies, those changes I made, all of them...are innate. They are the way I live my life. Step 12 says practice these principles in all our affairs, and I innately do. You will find yourself getting better, one day at a time. The tools will become easier and easier to use, to do, new ways of thinking will become normal ways, healthy ways of thinking. The "coping skills" I still find in the rooms -- after almost a quarter of a century -- I still find them so refreshing and so powerful.
Try those phone-in alanon meetings. I remember travelling, and there were no alanon meetings within 60 miles of where I was -- and I went to the alanon world services website, got information on the phone-in meetings, and I phoned in! They were good. You will find your way -- and it will work for you, if you work it. Find one of the wonderful women here and even if you ask them to be your temporary sponsor, you are making progress. All the best.
Hi As. and y'all...
I am sitting here superintending three grandkids- who are having a late breakfast... my SO is still in bed having hot cup of tea.
I have a lot to be thankful for these days... though change took a long long time... the kids of my brothers and sister seem to struggle a fair bit more than mine.
So I can see the benefits of Alanon- in the long term...
...I have been through most things the world can chuck at me... or so it seems to me!
I read most of the literature- Lois Remembers- and most of Bill's writings. In my dreams I pictured them as my mum and dad. [They have long ago passed- as y'all know- but they still matter, in my view.
In 2011 I visited their home in upstate New York. This was a big turning point for me. I wept buckets- tears of gratitude.
But most of all- it was a coming of age. I was able to separate from those surrogate parents.
I see them as real people now- but what is more important I see all the other members, now, sisters and brothers in recovery.
For me I find the journey now, pleasurable and relaxed. Down-to-earth and practical.
Today I seem to live in the present- most of the time- instead of a painful horrible space.
So, As., if you are reading this, you can see how you fit in, at least, with me.
We are all able to "pass it forward" when we are able. It starts the moment we arrive...
just showing up- is a gift!
Thanks...
...
Thanks again for the post David. So much of what you said resonates with me -- the journey, being pleasurable and relaxed, down to earth, and yes, practical. I very much enjoy the living in the present. Being present -- in the present -- is wonderful, and very healthy for me.
At this morning's meeting, there were numerous newcomers -- several first-timers, and a woman who attended the meeting last week for the first time. It was inspirational to hear her talk about why she came back, what she felt this week after attending last week's meeting, and how she feels better. She actually said "the situation hasn't changed, but I feel better, knowing I am learning some coping skills, and that I am gaining some awareness" -- it was amazing.
Thanks again.
David you are inspirational!
I enjoy working the Steps, I enjoy figuring myself out and where I am going wrong with myself. Part of my childcare degree was psychology (not only for children but also adults) and I think I'd like to go back to that.
I spent a few hours last night on the phone with a volunteer from AlAnon. She was pretty sure there aren't any meetings which allow children but she gave me some numbers anyway. We got talking and she said I should be more assertive. Get my husband in at nights to 'babysit' so I can go to AlAnon. He can go to AA meetings whenever he wants, he is pretty free in his time and what he wants to do with it so he can mould his day around AlAnon twice a week. She also thought he was being horrible. Not wanting to come back but he isn't even dry behind the ears. her first year with her husband was horrible but they made it. Unlike my husband, who still doesn't know whether he wants to be with me (it's getting old), they knew they wanted to work the marriage and aided each other in recovery. This is something which is not happening in my marriage even though it would be nice if we could do our recoveries together and learn from each other and support each other. My husband is still very much on the work, AA, run, sleep routine. We spoke a bout many other things which make me realise I don't even want to be here right now.
I find myself more and more preparing to go back home where I know the girls are happy, the schools are better and we have family who love and support us. The only thing nagging is that my husband won't be happy as he won't see his children (who he doesn't really know) but that is not my problem in the end. In the end my problem is me and my happiness.
I am not happy that I am going to his mums place and have lunch there and the girls get to see him. In a way he is not deserving of it and the girls don't really seem to care. But I'll do it, it'll keep the peace for now.